Posts by DS999

Consumer orgs ask world's competition watchdogs: Are you really going to let Google walk off with all Fitbit's data?

How do you break up Google?

It basically makes all its money from ads, the other parts of the company that make money are small potatoes compared to that, and balanced by all the other parts that lose money.

The advertising business relies on stuff like search, Android and so on to feed it a bunch of data so it can target ads, if those parts were broken up to another company either 'Google Search Inc.' and 'Android Inc.' have to begin directly selling data to 'Google Ads Inc.' which is even worse than the current situation privacy-wise. If you forced those parts to buy ads from other companies, and the ad company to do business buying data from other sources I guess you could improve competition. But such a structure would run afoul of the GDPR.

Happy privacy action day in California: If you don't have 'Do not sell my information' in your website footer, you need to read this story right now

It only stops them from SELLING my information?

What about Google and Facebook, who collect information and don't fit the legal definition of "selling it", but instead sell ME to companies who want to advertise to people fitting my profile.

Talk about fixing 10% of the problem and leaving the worst abusers scot free!

I was screwed over by Cisco managers who enforced India's caste hierarchy on me in US HQ, claims engineer

How did they learn he was Dalit?

Legitimate question here, I'm pretty ignorant of this facet of Indian culture. Can you tell by the last name? By a home address emergency contact in his records? Someone he trusted with that tidbit told the wrong person?

Never knowingly under-digitally transformed: Retailer John Lewis outsources tech function to Wipro

Re: Madness

It is such a short term view

So are most executive compensation packages. Now do you get why?

You've accused Apple of patent infringement. You want to probe the iOS source in a closed-room environment. What to do in a pandemic?

Re: I've often wondered...

Yeah judges have a tendency to throw the book at parties who withhold evidence from the discovery process, and anyone who has done so would have a really hard time convincing judges in future cases that they were being fully honest.

Plus I imagine the lawyers and executives involved in the process have to swear they are providing complete and accurate information, making it in the interest of no one involved to do this or knowingly allow it to happen.

Is this the same Maxell

That made 5.25" floppy disks back in the 80s?

MIT apologizes, permanently pulls offline huge dataset that taught AI systems to use racist, misogynistic slurs

Re: Copyright?

Maybe that's why they were 32x32, since they would be essentially unrecognizable as a particular work they could avoid the sort of copyright issues that would arise if they were large enough to be able distinguish as a particular copyrighted photo?

Leaked benchmarks from developer kit for Apple's home-baked silicon appear to give Microsoft a run for its money

Re: Apple's policy

Just about every pre-release of hardware or software that requires signing an NDA bans benchmarking. Some things ban benchmarking even for shipping code - read the contracts your business has to sign with Oracle sometime, publishing any benchmarks is a serious violation...

Re: Apple's policy

There is undoubtedly debugging code in both the OS and Rosetta, and both will still be tuned and improved so the current performance is a low bar that can only improve.

Also, the A12Z in this temporary dev machine will be replaced by an A14 derived SoC in the shipping Macs, so performance will improve by somewhere between 30% to 50% based on that alone.

'It's really hard to find maintainers...' Linus Torvalds ponders the future of Linux

From what I understand the new Mac's will boot only signed code by default, but you will be able to enter EFI config and change that setting.

The catch for using an ARM Mac as a Linux ARM dev platform is more likely to be drivers, especially for graphics. So you might be better off booting Linux in the built-in hypervisor which will have drivers for everything and let you run full Linux. Even though it isn't bare metal it'll be basically bare metal performance.

Apple said to be removing charger, headphones from upcoming iPhone 12 series

Re: charging standard

Because Apple went to Lightning before USB-C was created, and doesn't want to change again just for the sake of change. If they get rid of Lightning I wouldn't be too sure they go USB-C, they might drop the port and do all power and data exchange wirelessly.

Re: charging standard

Well you've got your wish, the iPhone 11 already comes with a USB-C charger and separate USB-C to Lightning to connect to it.

Its great that your $75 phone comes with a charger, but how many chargers do you have now and how many more do you think you need?

What I'd really like to see is for no one to ship accessories, but instead put a coupon in the box to mail off for a free charger and cable if you are one of the 35 remaining people on Earth who don't already have several spare chargers and cables laying around.

Re: Apple survey

That TouchID question is interesting, I imagine they are re-evaluating things in light of the pandemic induced mask wearing and may bring back Touch ID (under the screen) to work alongside Face ID in the future. Though I wonder if there isn't a way using something other than IR to see "through" masks to the face underneath...

Apple: We're defending your privacy by nixing 16 browser APIs. Rivals: You mean defending your bottom line

What's the real use of a bluetooth API in a browser?

What good things are you going to do in a web app that you can't do in an app, or you can't do an app because Apple wouldn't approve it?

Measure that against the massive privacy violation of being able to be tracked in public places that have bluetooth beacons set up. Not to mention the potential for an evil web site (or one that has been compromised by malware) to attack or bug your bluetooth devices. Just because you can think of a few useful things you could do with it doesn't make the API any less of a security and privacy nightmare. I can think of a few positive outcomes if the FBI had a copy of keys to everyone's phone, but that doesn't mean I support that either.

Google just thinks they can create all sorts of privacy violating APIs and force them on people because they have the dominant PC browser, which will soon also be the dominant mobile browser on the dominant mobile OS. They're pissed that they aren't able to dictate standards like Microsoft used to, and people are seeing through their shenanigans so they're trying to frame the argument in a way that makes Apple look like the bad guy - ignoring that Firefox is also not on board with this stuff.

Whether you attribute this particular stand to Apple being on the side of privacy, or to Apple being on the side of walled gardens, and whether or not you ever use an Apple product at all you should thank them for standing in the way of this crap. You could have made the same argument when Jobs refused to support Flash and said only was only trying to protect their App Store, but in starting the avalanche that took down Flash they ended up rescuing the PC/Android world from that security nightmare.

Had Apple blindly supported Flash on iOS it would still be very much with us today. Probably have had a lot of "helpful" extensions added to it over the years that did stuff like interface with bluetooth and provide a list of wireless networks are near for the Flash app's author to use for tracking, and sale to data brokers. And all with Adobe's famous attention to security!

Finally, a wafer-thin server... Only a tiny little thin one. Oh all right. Just the one...

Part of it may have something to do with how much you load it. I got a 1500 watt UPS to get more runtime and so I could hook up the monitor and actually do stuff during a power outage (which are luckily pretty rare where I live, but its the midwest US so huge thunderstorms come through all the time about 8 months of the year)

The total load of my PC+monitor+wireless+switch+modem is generally under 120 watts. People who have a gaming PC with a power hungry GPU and overclocked CPU probably put more stress on the UPS.

Re: Cleaning the server room

I was in a datacenter (in the US) once that had all equipment with UK plugs. I think...or maybe some EU standard but I think they were UK - they referred to them as "UPS plugs". They ordered it that way, and even had UK plugs in the wall in a little test/deployment lab off in the corner. I was told it was because something Really Bad(tm) happened 20+ years earlier that made them build their new datacenter such that the UPS could only use UK plugs to eliminate the ability of people to plug things into it that don't belong. No one there had been around when whatever it was happened so everyone had a different story of what exactly it was. But it left a deep scar on the IT organization I guess.

Apparently it is a problem though because even though they order things with the UK plug, sometimes 'helpful' people or automated systems will see an order going to the US and substitute US plugs. They either return the cord (if detachable) and substitute one of the many they keep locked in a special cabinet for just such an occasion, or make the vendor show up and replace the cord (if not detachable)

I've always had good luck with APC. I've used the same 1500 watt APC UPS for about 15 years now. Had to replace the battery pack about 5 years ago when it started only having 5-10 minutes of runtime, that brought it back up to well over an hour.

There are DDoS attacks, then there's this 809 million packet-per-second tsunami Akamai says it just caught

Re: All ISPs should filter by source address

This is all done by ASICs for firewalls that have to service high bandwidth links, but a run of the mill wireless router running Linux/iptables can handle several hundred megabits of throughput without even breaking a sweat. You think if you spend tens or hundreds of thousands on dedicated hardware it is going to choke and require "two minutes per page" to load?

EVERY site you visit on the internet passes through at least one and often more than one firewall with a long list of filter rules, adding one more will not affect the performance at all.

Re: All ISPs should filter by source address

MAC addresses are only visible on the local ethernet segment, not on the internet. The problem with DoS attacks have nothing whatsoever to do with MAC addresses.

All ISPs should filter by source address

If that happened often enough then ISPs would be forced to filter on source IPs so you couldn't spoof my IP in your UDP packets unless we were both in the same subnet with the same ISP.

I can't believe this still isn't being done universally, as there is no reason other than mischief why you would want to send out packets claiming someone else's source IP.

I recall being responsible for adjusting the filter rules for the firewall of a small ~500 person engineering firm connected via T1 back in 1994. Even though it wasn't part of the requested change I added a filter that blocked exgress of packets claiming an IP address outside our subnet range just because it seemed like a reasonable precaution. Among our customers was the DoD and if something went wrong when the engineers were testing stuff we probably didn't want to be spoofing a .mil address.

It's now safe to turn off your computer shop: Microsoft to shutter its bricks-and-mortar retail locations worldwide

Re: Isn't it obvious......

The main problem is that Microsoft doesn't sell much hardware, and most people see them as primarily a company that sells to businesses. Microsoft makes you think of work, of sitting behind a desktop slaving away at a spreadsheet, or fidgeting in a meeting watching someone interminable powerpoint presentation. It is hard to translate that boring image into "come to our store and look at our products", especially when most of what they are showing is someone else's hardware.

Microsoft seems to watch other companies successes with envy and tries to do the same. Apple has stores so Microsoft had stores. Apple makes a mint selling hardware instead of licensing their software to others, Microsoft starts selling phones and tablets under its own brand. Google makes a mint collecting data to sell ads, Microsoft starts collecting data to sell ads. I'm surprised we never saw them try to ape Facebook and start a social network, or buy Vine to compete with Youtube.

Apple gives Boot Camp the boot, banishes native Windows support from Arm-compatible Macs

I read elsewhere that the EFI will be locked by default, but it will be possible to unlock. So there should be no problem booting Linux, assuming it has drivers for Apple's hardware - I suspect that will be the limitation especially Apple's GPU. It may work only in console mode. Booting it in a VM should be fine.

Probably the same story for Windows/ARM, while theoretically this method would allow it to boot, without the support of Windows drivers for the hardware which Apple will not be providing it won't work. Again, booting it in a VM should be fine and should work for any business requirements for running Windows applications (x86 applications can be run via Wow64 so long as they do not demand a lot of performance) No demanding games, the VM overhead for complex graphics is too big of a hit.

US Department of Defense releases list of firms allegedly linked to the Chinese Army. Surprise surprise, Huawei makes an appearance

Re: The Reg might note however

I agree about Apple, but I would also include Facebook in the list of very large US corporations that isn't likely to have any links to the US military.

Fasten your seat belts: Brave Reg hack spends a week eating airline food grounded by coronavirus crash

So who decides what is necessary?

Do you get to veto my vacation to Europe (if/when coronavirus ends) or the Caribbean? Which is prioritized, business travel or pleasure travel? If I drive 1000+ miles to Florida because you've taken away my airplane, and enough other people do the same, we're going to be worse off from a CO2 perspective.

Are you coming for my car next, and requiring me to ride my bike to work and the grocery store? Better also make sure you also control my thermostat for good measure, so it is kept at 10C in the winter and 30C in the summer, wouldn't want to waste energy when I could wear a couple layers around the house in the winter and nothing in the summer!

Grav wave boffins are unsure if they just spotted the smallest black hole or the biggest neutron star seen yet

Can't neutron stars grow bigger from accretion?

It could steal mass from a companion though that's probably not going to add enough material to matter much. They could merge with a white dwarf or another neutron star if a companion had a slowly decaying orbit. The fact neutron stars larger than 2 solar masses or so are hard to find is probably because this sort of thing is comparatively rare - and if they become too big as result of this they'll collapse into a black hole so like goldilocks it has to be "just right".

Here's a headline we never thought we'd write 20 years ago: Microsoft readies antivirus for Linux, Android

Re: Small correction

Wouldn't meet the requirements of most corporations because there's no one standing behind it with a support contract. Same reason big corporations install RHEL on their Linux servers not CentOS.

Re: Small correction

Yes, that's mostly what Linux admins would want it to do. If you have a Linux server that's handling Windows files/attachments like mail servers, web servers, or whatever and your security rules require virus scanning then you have to install antivirus on Linux.

A lot of people are paying a lot of money for commercial AV software on Linux for that very reason. The article doesn't say, but if this is free or at least much less costly than the usual suspects Microsoft is going to get a lot of converts.

Ampere smacks the ball over the net, back at Marvell: Our Altra Max cloud processor will have 128 Arm cores

Re: Quoting speed in GHz ...

SPECrate 2017 is about as good as you'll do for cloud computing benchmarks. Obviously if you can benchmark using your actual load that's the best, but unless you are doing something pretty weird (or doing a lot of I/O, which SPEC deliberately doesn't try to measure) it will match up pretty well with the SPECrate results.

Machine-learning models trained on pre-COVID data are now completely out of whack, says Gartner

If (covid19_flaring && in_lockdown)

then recommend(toilet_paper);

Apple to keep Intel at Arm's length: macOS shifts from x86 to homegrown common CPU arch, will run iOS apps

Intel's x86 patents are long expired

AMD's x86-64 patents probably have just expired as well (I wonder if maybe that's figured into releasing this year...)

Newer stuff like AVX is still covered by patents, and according to Anandtech Rosetta doesn't support AVX so perhaps patents are the reason for that. Since only some CPUs support AVX, binaries must have a 'slow path' for those CPUs which I guess Rosetta will use when translating.

CERN puts two new atom-smashers on its shopping list. One to make Higgs Bosons, then a next-gen model six times more energetic than the LHC

Re: OK I'm reluctant to go down this path

No they wouldn't. If our entire supercluster (Lanaiakea) is composed of matter where is the antimatter going to come from that will set its edges on fire? That was my point, we ARE an island, we're in a gravitionally bound supercluster and space is expanding quickly enough nothing from other superclusters can reach us. If some other supercluster that nothing from ours can reach was made of antimatter could we telling just by observation?

OK I'm reluctant to go down this path

But those who know more than I do, would it be possible via observation alone to tell if a distant galaxy was composed of anti-matter rather than matter? Would stars work slightly differently and have different spectral lines or something like that, or would there be no way to tell?

The large scale structure of the universe is pretty clear, there are various "islands" of gravitationally bound galaxies in the form of clusters and superclusters. If there was some mechanism (i.e. VERY hypothetically since it would have to be some mechanism no one has yet theorized) by which some of those were formed of matter and others of anti-matter then there wouldn't be any annihilation since they'd each be composed entirely of the same type of matter. Nor would there be any mixing because superclusters are receding from each other quickly enough that no natural process would permit matter from one to reach another.

I don't buy this idea, but I'm curious if there is something observationally that rules it out right away or if it is just because there's no conceivable mechanism of the universe's life cycle that could account for this sort of 'patchwork' approach of superclusters of matter and anti-matter.

What's the Arm? First Apple laptop to ditch Intel will be 13.3" MacBook Pro, proclaims reliable soothsayer

I'm sure their lower end stuff like use their built in graphics (so Linux drivers might be hard to come by for those unless Apple decides to write them...) but they will never get rid of discrete graphics in higher end stuff.

Drivers won't be a problem, they probably already support them on Windows/ARM. They won't be as well optimized as Windows drivers, but neither were Apple's x86 Radeon drivers...

Re: It's different this time

They won't have to kiss goodbye to Bootcamp or Parallels, Windows 10 runs on ARM already.

Yes it will be slow if people have x86 only Windows applications they need to run, but all the basic stuff like Office, Outlook, and some third party stuff like SAP clients is already ported. If you need to boot into Windows to run some sort of CAD application that may never get ported because there aren't any good Windows PCs with ARM CPUs to run it on, I guess that would take future Macs off your list. But if you need to run Windows just to run stuff your employer has standardized on in Windows, it shouldn't be a problem.

Apple might be who saves Windows on ARM - it needs a bigger user base to get more developers interested in porting their applications, the additional momentum from Apple users who run Windows can only help.

Re: Strategy

I agree, I think they will have even the Mac Pro replaced within two years or so. They needed to wait this long because they need their per core performance to be able to beat that of the x86 Macs that are being replaced and that's only recently become possible.

It makes sense to start at with the 'lesser' machines both because they are an easier target to beat x86 performance since they use lower spec'ed chips (for the Mac Pro they will need some type of multi chip solution like AMD's chiplets which will take longer to develop/test) and because the kind of high end high dollar applications people run on a Mac Pro will require more time to port to ARM and fully test.

Re: Pragmatist

They don't need to go ARM to do that, they could have done it with x86 Macs anytime in the past decade if that was their plan.

Re: And now it gets interesting

They won't announce anything to do with price now, they are just announcing the transition to developers and will get some prerelease hardware into their hands so they can begin the porting process so there is less x86 only code for them to worry about when the real announcement comes in 6-9 months.

But I think it is probably a safe bet the price will be exactly the same as the x86 machines they replace, but they will have better performance and better battery life. Apple haters will whine that they aren't passing any of the savings from dropping Intel along to their customers, their customers won't care because they will be getting something with better performance and better battery life.

Folk sure like to stick electric toothbrush heads in their ears: True wireless stereo sales buck coronavirus trends

Re: re: Isn't that the Apple business model in general?

Apple's goal isn't to give power users every feature or every knob to turn. It is to provide what the broad market of typical consumers wants, with as little fiddling as possible.

Which is why you rarely see praise for their products on forums populated by techies. They can't understand why anyone buys Apple's stuff when there is something else that's cheaper, or with more features, or with more configuration options, or all three available. So they regard buyers of Apple products as "sheep" because they refuse to accept that their needs/wants are different than that of the average consumer.

With intelligent life in scant supply on Earth, boffins search for technosignatures of civilizations in the galaxy

This is mostly pointless

We only know what to look for as far as technology we currently have, plus the effect of megastructures science fiction writers theorize that would be the signature of a civilization collecting a large portion of the power a star is generating.

If we did this 100 years ago, we wouldn't know to look for satellites and solar panels. We'd probably look for lots of smog from all the coal burning they'd be doing. If we ever get fusion working efficiently and cheaply, maybe solar panels no longer have much of a role and they won't be seen on Earth 100 years from now. So how do we know what to look for in a civilization a mere 100 years ahead of us?

How about one 1000 years, or 100,000 years more advanced than us? Maybe some new sort of quantum communication someday makes communication satellites obsolete. Maybe they have some sort of 'stealth' technology that eliminates the artificial signatures being detectable from the outside, because they have a Frank Lloyd Wright sense of aesthetic and want to look natural when observed from their planet's moon, or because they don't want to advertise their existence to potentially more aggressive neighbors. It would be a lot easier as a civilization that's been around a million years to know what to look for than one that's only a few thousand years down that road.

Not saying we shouldn't look, but I certainly wouldn't take a lack of evidence of aliens as evidence of a lack of aliens.

Huawei going to predict the future? Nope, say company leaders when asked about Joe Biden winning US election

Re: Biden hardly gets a mention here in the UK

Well Trump would be even more better off than Biden if they could lock him in his bunker until November, but he's so narcissistic that he'd probably die if he couldn't get regular doses of people fawning over him.

And I'd happily make a bet with anyone that Biden will not choose Hillary, the party would be in open revolt if he tried. I will say that if he wins I really doubt he plans to run for a second term at his age, so his VP pick is more important than most as that person will almost certainly be their candidate in 2024.

If Trump loses I think it is possible he might run again in 2024, and if he does it will tear the republican party apart. Which needs doing, to get the stink of Trump off it. I'm still registered republican since I'm too lazy to change it, but haven't liked the direction it has been going since 2008 when McCain (a man I truly respected and the country would have been so much better off had he won the nomination in 2000 and become president instead of Bush) was forced by the crazy wing to pick Sarah Palin as his running mate. I couldn't make myself vote for him knowing that she was a heartbeat away from the oval office. Little did I know someone far worse would occupy it only eight years later.

Trump's nomination was the last straw for me. I'm voting D pretty much across the board this fall simply because only by losing in epic fashion will they be forced to take stock of how things went so badly wrong the party could nominate someone like Trump and turn it into basically a religion worshipping him. You can't worship someone who alienates everyone who isn't white and also alienates women and young people for good measure, and think that's a winning formula.

Re: Biden hardly gets a mention here in the UK

No one is excited about Biden, but the deeper the hole Trump digs for himself the better Biden looks simply by being "not Trump". If I was Biden's campaign manager I'd tell him to just say and do as little as possible this summer and watch Trump continue to self immolate.

Google isn't even trying to not be creepy: 'Continuous Match Mode' in Assistant will listen to everything until it's disabled

GDPR issue??

How is this any different from going to someone's house and they have cameras watching and recording your every move, microphones recording anything you say, etc.

It is THEIR house, why should the equipment within that house be required to get your consent? Now if this was in a public space like a shopping center then I'd agree.

Facebook's $500k deepfake-detector AI contest drama: Winning team disqualified on buried consent technicality

Why didn't they supply everyone with the same training data?

Same training, same testing, everyone is on a level playing field. If one team can afford to get photos of a million people with consent and another could afford only a thousand, why should the one with more resources potentially win only because it had better training?

Or alternatively, require all contestants to submit their training data (which they MUST have used, no giving data designed to sabotage others) and other entrants are free to use it if they want.

Google’s Fitbit lift strains competition laws says Australian regulator

Re: Google

Google couldn't resist that temptation for long. If a future model can detect high blood pressure or cholesterol then Google's ad slingers would claim they are helping people by using that information to show them ads for statins and so forth. They'll claim it is a public service, that not showing those ads would be the opposite of saving lives!

For years, the internet giants have held on dear to their get-out-of-jail-free card. Here are those trying to take that away

Allowing the DoJ to determine who is a "bad samaratin"

Is a terrible idea, given that Trump has exposed how easily it can be manipulated if you stick a spineless pawn at its head like Barr. Until the DoJ is fixed so the president (of whichever party) has a lot less power over its operations, no way I'd trust them with this power.

If Trump had that power now he'd already have had Barr order the shutdown of the websites of CNN, the Washington Post and the New York Times, and anyone else who reported anything not over the top flattering to him like the suckups at Fox News. Press inside the US would quickly resemble that of Russia or worse.

Huawei's EMUI 10.1 update shows Chinese mobile giant hunkering down for the long haul without Google wares

Re: So...

But why would Huawei want to license it to other companies, rather than keeping it an exclusive to help sell their hardware?

Phones sold in China haven't used Google services for years already and that internal market has already built up its alternatives. Where Huawei has an advantage is if they are the only Chinese company able to compete outside of China. If they license their stuff they'll have to compete in a race to the bottom with an army of no name Chinese companies willing to sell at near zero margins.

Someone got so fed up with GE fridge DRM – yes, fridge DRM – they made a whole website on how to bypass it

Re: Next great idea

HP's subscription ink is actually not a bad idea for light home use. I have the "free for under 15 pages a month" plan, where I have to pay $1 per 10 pages for extra. I've only had to do that once when I had to print a few dozen pages. If I had to print hundreds there are better options such as going to a print shop or buying retail cartridges and temporarily swapping them. They have plans that cost money that come with higher monthly allotments and cheaper per page overages for people whose printing needs aren't quite so modest as mine.

I used to buy cartridges that I had to replace long before they ran out of ink because they dried out due to age and disuse so I was probably paying some insanely high per page rate. A laser printer would avoid that but a color laser multifunction has a much higher up front cost, so I figured I'd try HP's subscription solution this time around. Time will tell how long the printer lasts and how they handle the ink drying up - they automatically send you cartridges before yours run out of ink, but not sure if/how they tell if they are drying up. I wouldn't be surprised if the subscription cartridges are designed to last a lot longer before drying out to avoid this issue, something they had less reason to care about when the consumer was paying for them.

I got a $129 printer for $40 on closeout so I'm not out much if it doesn't work out.

'One rule for me, another for them' is all well and good until it sinks the entire company's ability to receive emails

Re: Seen something like this before

Why did you delete all the outgoing emails in the queue? A simple grep could have provided a list of emails involving the offending user so those not at fault could be spared.

As Uncle Sam flies spy drones over protest-packed cities, Homeland Security asks the public if that's a good idea

Re: Purpose of survey questions

Damn, I read this and was going to post a criticism but you saved me the effort and did a better job of it than I would!

Intel outside: Chip king Keller quits x86 giant immediately 'for personal reasons'

Re: Back to Apple?

The chips for the Mac have already been designed - if they announce next week at WWDC that means they will be supplying ARM Macs to developers pretty soon so the wafers containing the chips that will go in them have probably already come off the line at TSMC or soon will.

Nuvia is a real possibility, they seem to have attracted other former Apple talent. It will be interesting to see what they come up with, whether or not Keller ends up involved.