Posts by RF Burns

After deadly 737 Max crashes, damning whistleblower report reveals sidelined engineers, scarcity of expertise, more

Re: The article leaves out important details

Runaway trim is runaway trim regardless of the cause. Pilots are trained to deal with it. The controls for doing just that were functioning but not used.

Saying "the computer did it" or "Boeing did it" ignores the facts and exposes some bias that isn't helpful. Are pilots relying too much on automation and giving up too soon when things get complicated? This question may be more important that blaming either pilots or Boeing.

BTW are we angry at Airbus for Air France 447 or did the pilots get the blame? Where's the outrage over that one??

Re: The article leaves out important details

Please read more about these accidents. Pilots are trained to deal with runaway trim. The fact that it was caused by MCAS doesn't change the equation. If they had used the trim switch on the yoke it would have overridden the computer.

After the trim is set they could have stopped runaway trim by using the switches on the center console. Of course, it is easy to say this while sitting at my computer. In the heat of the moment it might be easy to forget the training. Sadly, that is probably what happened.

The article leaves out important details

The Ethiopian pilots left the throttle at takeoff thrust. This is why the aerodynamic forces were so high. Further, electric trim was available but they didn't use it to override the computer. To be fair to the pilots, panic can happen to anyone. We weren't there. Would we have been able to avoid the panic trap and save those passengers? We will never know.

As for the Lion Air crash, the flight immediately before the accident had the MCAS problem. Those pilots used their training to override the computer and land safely. The problem was reported but never fixed. As we know the next pilot didn't override the MCAS. We will never know why one pilot responded correctly but the other didn't.

Take your shots at this post but please read beyond the headlines first. The details suggest that pilot training was an issue in both accidents.

Boeing fined $17m after fitting uncertified sensors to 737 Max and NG airliners for 4 years

Pilots are trained to deal with runaway trim no matter what causes it. Manual controls on the yoke and console could have counteracted the computer.

Let's not be intimidated by computers. We still have options when they misbehave. It we are going to be afraid of something I could suggest the jackscrew on Alaska Air flight 261. When that mechanical device failed the pilots were out of options. They even tried flying upside down.

You are right. Going downhill with takeoff thrust doesn't leave much time to solve problems.

Re: RE: runaway trim

You are right that physically turning the 737 trim wheel against aerodynamic forces is near impossible. However, the trim button on the yoke would have overridden the MCAS. No need for strength, just light finger pressure on the rocker switch.

BTW ... The aerodynamic forces are reduced if the throttles aren't left at takeoff power.

Yes the Boeing trim system malfunctioned. How were most pilots able to recognize a runaway trim condition and land safely while 2 others crashed their planes? Pilots are trained to deal with trim malfunctions by disabling or counteracting them. Both options were available to those pilots. In the case of the Ethiopian 737 the throttles were left at takeoff power which severely hampered their ability to recover. It's too easy to blame Boeing or the pilots but facts are stubborn things.

Software bug in Bombardier airliner made planes turn the wrong way

Re: At least..

Boeing should have sensed both AOA devices before triggering the elevator trim. However, pilots are supposed to know how to deal with runaway trim. They had controls on the yoke and center console that would have overridden the computer. I won't speculate on why they didn't follow their training.