Posts by bombastic bob

It's 2021 and a printf format string in a wireless network's name can break iPhone Wi-Fi

Re: How wide?

not just width but unspecified parameters too?

Like "%.*g" repeated a bunch of times...

To CAPTCHA or not to CAPTCHA? Gartner analyst says OK — but don’t be robotic about it

Re: Street signs

I think Canada still paints their cop cars yellow, like U.S. cabs.

And the crosswalks they show are usually the striped kind like on that one Beatles album cover [those weren't painted like that in the USA until very recently, and not consistently either]

Re: Causes problems when travelling

a while ago I needed to submit something to an out of state court for a case I'm indirectly a party to. i tried to use e-mail to contact the appropriate person to send the info to [basically proof that I received the paperwork]. But the e-mail form had a captcha that simply would NOT work (even when run in the special context using chromium, like I usually resort to when such things are needed).

So I dug around some more on the court's web site, and found a FAX number, and I FAX'd it, by placing the item in question on the glassy copy/scan part of the fax/scan/copy/printer I bought a while back, and dialing the phone number. THAT worked. (it's why I keep that second land line).

Re: Complex CAPTCHA

yeah the ambiguous squares are the ones that get you a "try again" half the time, along with the faded/shadowy/grainy/too-tiny-too-see ones that might contain bicycles...

so it's "roll the dice" and hope the next one (after the 'try again') isn't one of those "slooowly fade out, slooowly fade in" types that *REALLY* irritate me...

(guess how I voted - see icon)

VMs were a fad fit for the Great Recession. Containers’ time has finally come

Re: I wish I could find the cartoon on the origins of containers

couldn't you do the same thing by imaging the dev's computer into a VM?

Do you want to become a vulture? Now's your chance to join The Register's news desk

Re: Tempting

(re: commentard's name 'Admiral Grace Hopper')

I actually saw (the original) Grace Hopper when she was a Captain, at the Orlando RTC [she was in charge of the recruit training base as they trained the women there and it made sense]. Didn't say hello but may have saluted her (can't recall exactly).

Thinking of commentards, El Reg _could_ review some of the better ones and see if any of those tend towards meeting their selection criteria. No doubt there are zillions of examples. Or maybe they did already and none were deemed 'worthy' enough for a job offer in an e-mail

Re: The dirty secret of FOSS

I would not consider that "exploitation" but rather 'participation'. FOSS development is usually voluntary, and I know I've volunteered here and there with various submissions, patches, etc.. [I think of it as 'giving back' or 'my license fee' for all of the FOSS stuff I use daily]. I'm sure that corporations also pay people to do the same thing for the same reasons, especially if they are staking some of their income on a particular project.

I think you may have an inaccurate perspective on the concepts of revenue, cost, profit, and loss. Perhaps a few years doing data analysis and reports for the accounting staff at a large company might help you get a better perspective (weekly internal financial reports, excess and obsolete inventory analyses, and ad-hoc cost reduction analyses, for example - how much DOES that engineering change cost and when is the best time to re-tool or switch out parts - that sort of thing).

Windows 11: Meet the new OS, same as the old OS (or close enough)

Re: LSW

IRL this really happened:

* kid has guinea pig as pet

* kid sees something in pet store that says 'cat' on it, wants a 'guinea pig' one, gets bratty about it

* I suggest taking the 'cat' one and crossing the word 'cat' out with a marker and writing 'guinea pig'

* kid stops being bratty, doesn't bring it up again

(everything I ever wanted to learn, I learned by watching 'Monty Python's Flying Circus')

Re: Not completely

Skype keeps re-installing itself

so, not "applications as a service", but more like "unwanted applications as a VIRUS"

Re: Keeping up with the Jone ... er Jobs

it would definitely have to use Marshall amplifiers (they go up to '11')

Re: Not all is well

I do not believe it has always been this way. The biggest problem most likely isn't CreateFile() itself, but the various 'Shell' versions of things that open files, or ".Not" itself. They like to get all "object-ie" and do a bunch of potentially unnecessary stuff up front, rather than as needed, and my observations concluded that this is PRIMARILY the source of file system and application startup slowness.

One of the worst offenders is the 'File Open' dialog box. Strangely, in Linux and BSD (when you use gnome or mate) it has similar problems, since the gnome and mate 'file open' seems to want to do previews, which suffers from the same *kinds* of performance issues. Granted, it's FASTER in the POSIX+X11 world, but it's EVEN FASTER if you fill the list with files FIRST, and then background query them when users need a preview (or any other details about that file), and NOT read EVERY! SINGLE! FILE! to discover its type BEFORE or WHILE filling a list of files in a directory. [that would be the 'anal-retentive-object-oriented' way to do it, where EVERYthing is ALWAYS 'an object' whether it makes sense or NOT]

So I'd say the SAME *kinds* of bad programming practices exist in Linux and BSD ports/packages, at least as far as the desktop environment is concerned. And this easily points out WHAT and WHY.

(now, where's my clue-bat, I need to 'educate' some junior-level programmers)

YES. *ALL* of what you said.

Re: What is an OS for?

the OS doesn't need to be the window manager as well.

Nor does the built-in window manager need to be 2D FLATTY FLATASS FLATSO (with NO other choice available), instead of the 3D Skeuomorphic appearance that actually SOLD WINDOWS TO THE PUBLIC in the FIRST PLACE (remember 2.x vs 3.0?), simply because a handful of PFY "engineers" at Micros~1 (along with Sinofsky and the inventor of 'the ribbon') suddenly *FELT* it should... (and would NOT backtrack on the obvious mal-design, even though our W.I.M.P. desktops ARE STILL NOT PHONES).

Nor should it take away all of the capabilities that had actually SOLD the previous releases to the public (like end-user customization and built-in games and utilities that DO NOT THROW ADS AT OR SPY ON YOU). Arguably, these '7 and earlier' features sold new computers FASTER than the "more 'modern' OS" machines sitting NEXT to them on the shelves. (I recall MANY El Reg articles that pointed such things out, in the 2014-sh time range, THIS being one of them)

Nor should it sling ads, spy on you, require an on-line cloudy logon (to avoid the strong-arming or access any previously included options), FORCE you to update (or download updates) when you do not want it to, And so on.

From the article: Windows 10 is so much better than its antecedents that it has stopped being a problem.

No. It is SUPPORTED. "Better" would be Windows 7, XP, and 2000. But THEY are not SUPPORTED any more...

Racist malware blocks The Pirate Bay by tampering with victims' Windows hosts file

Re: Eh?

"My own ISP, est. 1982[0], has been asked by a couple of state and local agencies (and a couple of Universities) to block specific things over the years. I told 'em to fuck off each time."

(needs no further comment)

Mayflower, the AI ship sent to sail from the UK to the US with no humans, made it three days before breaking down

It reminds me of too many science fiction dystopias and they never turn out well

and one particular Dr. Who episode... (the yellow smiley button on your back isn't smiling, oops)

and when the building and everything in it (that isn't you) is a networked bunch of nanobots, they always know whether or not you are smiling...

Microsoft: Try to break our first preview of 64-bit Visual Studio – go on, we dare you

No wonder developers have no passion for the Windows platform anymore.

I thought that '.Not' followed by C# (C-pound) and then "UWP" (and its predecessors) and all of the moving target "new shiny" things (that totally lost long term support) is wot dun that...

at least, for me.

(I just wanted to stick with C++, MFC, Win32, and the DevStudio 98 environment where things were becoming easy and familiar and I could pound out applications and libraries in no time at all...)

I liked VS98 better than the current incarnations - better keystroke navigation, no need to remove hand from keyboard and 'mouse' something if you knew the hot keys [especially important in the dialog editor]. Something like THAT in 64-bit would make me a LOT happier.

I think I'll get the preview anyway, and the full version when it's out. Maybe I can try installing under Wine...

Still, any level of GIT integration might make it useful, if for no other reason than installing for clients to view things with. And maybe I can check out how the extensions work, now. Haven't tried anything with that for over a decade.

eh, can't hurt to look, right?

BOFH: When the Sun rises in the West and sets in the East, only then will the UPS cease to supply uninterrupted voltage

Re: Reminds me...

some cost accountant needs to factor in the COST OF INCOMPETENT MICRO-MANAGEMENT ON OVERALL PERFORMANCE when upper management tries to determine what speed settings to use on the equipment.

That vs the cost of an industrial "accident" that prevents such micromanagement from being implemented... [boss, the window is over here - check out the view!]

Roger Waters tells Facebook CEO to Zuck off after 'huge' song rights request

Re: Facebook will sue

they _are_ the wall.

and their users are just bricks in that wall. Unimportant, identical, mook-like bricks with no individuality and complete obedience. Just sitting there being monitized and holding up the big FB wall...

(I wonder if Zuck realizes the irony of that particular song in an ad related to one of his companies...)

Re: Not Now John

I smell a PARODY!!

"We don't need no advertising"

"We don't need no social control"

"The dark side of the creepy tracking"

Hey - ZUCKHEAD - LEAVE US ALL ALONE!!!

Dem, Repub senators propose tax credits for factories that churn out chips on US soil

I agree on the national security part. Not the rest.

(there are many costs in manufacturing, and from my viewpoint, a LOT of these are government-caused, like regulations and taxes, which is why REDUCING those becomes "the incentive")

Tim Cook: Sideloading is a disaster and proposed App Store reforms would harm user privacy and security

Re: Sideloading

smartphone users are idiots who need protecting from themselves

I wouldn't go THAT far. Even the average LUser can be educated.

All you need to do is make the default security as tight as possible, and allow people to turn things off if they don't want them. This MUST include both side-loading AND installing without code-signing, for TRUE freedom for the user.

This way open source and independent developers can more easily distribute their stuff (without paying the 'Apple Tax' or hiding your needle within their ginormous HAY STACK).

But if the end-user doesn't want that, he can just leave all of the security options ON. So simple.

(and if a system reset can wipe everything and restore the phone/slab to factory state from a ROM, so much the better, for dealing with viruses and malware, in case they show up more frequently)

Yeah, PERSONAL CHOICE. Who knew?

Facebook, academics think they've cracked spotting deepfakes by spotting how they're generated

Re: Photos all the way down

I would expect that generating the deepfake in a very high resolution, and then using a standard method of shrinking it down to something with less resolution (cubic interpolation, let's say), or using JPEG vs PNG even, might be just enough to fool the deep-fake spotter-bots.

I like use 'gimp' and a hand-done "fuzzy" technique around the borders of, let's say, a face, surrounded by transparency, that melds right into another photo when proper re-sizing and perspective is done (no pr0n though, just funny things).

in 'Little Nicky' (Adam Sandler) Nicky's brother pasted his face over Al Pacino in a clip from 'Scarface', and did it poorly. But often times it's funnier if poorly done, which is then obvious to everyone (including algorithms I hope).

Your spacesuit ran into a problem and needs to restart

Re: There Are Three Things

this reminds me of a Dr. Who episode - in space, O2 is expensive, after all! (in that episode the suits literally took over)

Along with a zillion other things I'm not an expert on, I have kicked around a design concept for a one-size-fits-all space suit, mostly for emergencies. In short, a vinyl bubble [made of thick material similar to a waterbed] with an integral helmet and radio, pockets for important things like an O2 bottle with a regulator on it, a couple of hose connections (for the O2 bottle etc.), and a bunch of oversized SHOE STRINGS that you'd use to obtain a proper fit.

For working it may not be tough enough, but if you put something _like_ this on, then put some stronger clothing over it (like pants and a jacket, only SPACE pants+jacket) and gloves, it might be pretty effective, fit ANYONE, be relatively easy to put on, and maybe even cheap enough to be DISPOSABLE.

And you could put these in boxes at various places inside the people compartment, for emergency use, in case of sudden decompression.

(you'd have to strap on the extra A/C when working outside but that could be more like a backpack thrown on after everything else, connect up hoses, etc.)

yeah - I think in terms of doing it "on the cheap" yet being extremely effective and reliable. But it would look like you were wearing a balloon tied with shoelaces.

Spacewalk veterans take a trip outside the ISS to pump up the power with new solar arrays

Re: ISS' swansong?

Is there any reason that what you propose could NOT simply extend the existing ISS? One "connection module" at a docking port and you end up with "the old station" attached to the new, a kind of "city planning" if you think about it.

de-orbit of small things can be absorbed by the atmosphere as long as they don't have anything REALLY toxic or dangerous in them. The large amounts of things like Selenium and Cadmium in solar panels might cause some level of contamination depending on where the particles end up falling. Over the ocean, not so bad. Over a large body of water that supplies drinking water for people and water for farming, not so good.

And de-orbit of BIG things (Skylab, Mir) hasn't gone so well in the past...

(keeping the ISS alive and expanding may prove to be the better alternative, at least in MY bombastic opinion)

Solar Panel long-term performance

The ISS is a good test environment for solar panels in a worst-case environment.

* frequently heating/cooling every 2.5 hours [or whatever it is] as they orbit

* exclusive source of power for ISS and must be reliable

* "up there" for years, not so easy to replace or repair

So far they seem to be doing very well. Hopefully the replacement/upgrade panels will outperform and outlast these, as the tech develops.

(I would like to see a method of producing power via solar wind, especially for interplanetary craft)

Solar cell disposal, however, is another problem entirely. Recycling is best (due to things like CE prohibited materials, etc.) but can it be broken into panels and returned via Dragon capsules? That's where a Space Shuttle would be more effective.. (ok these are staying up there for now but eventually)

And while they're at it, they should send up some additional modules to go with the extended power availability... and maybe some (laser, TIG) welding equipment and laser or plasma cutters (if not already there). I'd like to see them get a head start on orbital construction on a much larger scale.

then they'll need MORE panels, MORE modules, and MORE trips to/from ISS. But when the ISS is all connected, you have one "thing" orbiting, i.e. easier to control the orbit.

Chrome 'Conformance' for JavaScript frameworks says: If you don't follow our rules, your project won't build

JS Frameworks highly overrated

Just saying...

Like every OTHER framework (and language developed by Micros~1) before it, I'm sure Next.js will turn out to be

* bloated and inefficient (except when run on/by "the overlord" application/OS that will miraculously be able to run it well)

* attempts to be all to all and do all with all

* requires ridiculous hacks to actually USE it (in at least some cases)

* breaks those hacks at random with all-to-frequent updates

My opinion, of course.

and establishment enforcement of 'rules' can't POSSIBLY cover 100% of use cases. Which means something important WILL break. Or require ridiculous hacks. Eventually.

Something like ESLint (let's say) could become a way of spotting "code smells" that do not comply to well established standards, but they should be COMMUNITY standards, and not "just Google".

Open-source projects glibc and gnulib look to sever copyright ties with Free Software Foundation

Re: Why assign copyright?

I would guess that this is a part of it (i.e. prevent someone withdrawing their submission and expecting that to be honored). But I think the "work for hire" concept would be more practical.

* as a contributor, you are "working for" the project

* As 'work for hire', the project has ownership

* They can, and should in my opinion, allow you to also distribute things on your own terms that are derived from your work [but I don't think this is part of it] to avoid YOU being sued later if you copy/pasta your own code into some other project

* They are free to license it consistently with the rest of the project (as owners)

In short, you gave them the contribution, so it's theirs now. Plus, if you GPL it, a derived work can always be made from the source (so no withdrawing it later).

So yeah, that and IANAL and my understanding of these things is limited to my own experiences.

(I think most contributions take the form of patches to existing things, though I somewhat recently contributed a userland application to the FreeBSD project - it may still have my copyright but it is under a BSD license anyway. It had to meet their somewhat tough standards, too, or they would not accept it)

SpaceX spat with Viasat: Rival accused of abusing legislation to halt Elon's Starlink expansion

Re: Viasat

you'd think they could afford an actual SCIENTIST who would tell them that below 600km altitude orbits decay in relatively short time frame.

According to NASA "Debris left in orbits below 370 miles (600 km) normally fall back to Earth within several years."

I'd say a collision at THAT altitude is much less dangerous "to the environment" than advertised...

Mensa data spillage was due to 'unauthorised internal download'

Re: Wow

I put 'ransomware' in quotes (followed by a 'd') because it's a similar concept, to threaten something based on a data leak and to potentially want money to NOT release it [unautorized data encryption/decryption being another variant].

But it was released, nonetheless, and the details about whether money exchanged hands (or did not) wasn't in the article... and if "police are investigating" it implies something a bit worse than your average data theft intrusion.

I suppose I could have said "data-leaked" or "cyber-burglared" or similar and been more accurate

Re: Wow

IQ can be a curse as much as a gift.

"Flowers for Algernon" - that was one of my takes on it.

Charlie was just as out of touch with everyone else around him on BOTH ends of the I.Q. spectrum. But when his I.Q. was high, he was AWARE of it...

Re: Wow

more like their definition of "smart" does not include "savvy"

(and as a result, one of the 'smartest' organizations in the world gets 'ransomwared')

It's like the 'ivory tower' mentality in its most irritating form. From my observations, I think their I.Q. tests may be oriented towards making themselves look smart at the expense of everyone else [especially older people, and "non-college-students" in general].

Perhaps with practice any reasonably smart person could 'ace' their IQ tests, but anyone NOT accustomed to "what they expect for an answer" will be at a serious disadvantage [making their IQ results _and_ membership requirements completely out of touch with reality].

A friend of mine (back in the 80's) who had at one time been a member warned me about them. He was pretty smart, but had not been able to complete one of the most difficult military schools [one that I had done pretty well with, the U.S. Navy nuclear power program] where half the students typically drop out. But he was smart enough to have joined Mensa. I have to wonder how many OTHER Mensa members could pass that school...

(If I saw a resume/CV with Mensa membership on it, I'd accidentally round-file it)

Debian's Cinnamon desktop maintainer quits because he thinks KDE is better now

Re: Tumbleweed with Wayland

if Wayland weren't trying to re-invent things [for the lulz apparently] while SIMULTANEOUSLY becoming more Windows-like _AND_ removing the one capability that makes X11 superior to all [display and interact on remote desktop over network or even on the same machine with a different login context, simply by assigning the 'DISPLAY' environment variable] I might actually consider using it. But I don't.

So if Mint/Cinnamon devs want to FOCUS RESOURCES ON THINGS THAT MATTER, and NOT waste time re-re-doing things JUST for Wayland, I'm in agreement with them.

I tried to read his comments by following the link, and that LIGHT GREY TEXT on OFF-WHITE was _SO_ HIDEOUS I had to expand it to 150 percent to even TRY to read it... it was like trying to read badly faded print in candlelight on yellowed paper.

I have to wonder what desktop the *ahem* web author of that page uses. THAT page is just *HORRIBLE*!!! WORST! WEB! DESIGN! EVAR!!!

China launching first crew to its own space station on Thursday

Re: Better not be claustrophobic

I have to wonder how it would compare to Mir and Skylab (size-wise at least)

Say helloSystem: Mac-like FreeBSD project emits 0.5 release

Re: Proof, if it were needed,...

Open Source can't innovate, only duplicate.

Seriously? Gnome and KDE had multiple desktop support around 2005-ish, as I recall. 'vtwm' even had it, a short time later [if I remember correctly], and all of the 'box' managers after that. This same feature took 10 years to show up in Windows. That is *ONE* example where innovation (in this case, for usability and productivity) came to open source FIRST.

Countless other examples exist. Where did that (obviously inaccurate) concept even COME from?

(I do recall some kind of 'powertool' for XP that came AFTER the multi-desktop support in gnome and KDE and it _attempted_ to provide multi-desktop support in XP, but it was brittle and sloppy and generally unusable)

Re: The UI

it always seems to me to be a mistake in generalising and assuming that what works for you is the only way to do things.

THIS is what is WRONG with _SO_ _MANY_ _UI_ _DESIGNS_ these days!!!

The thing that _I_ noticed right away: screenshot of dialog box had 3D skeuomorphic buttons and borders!!!

And to me, the 2D FLATTY is an IMMEDIATE DEAL BREAKER!

So, THANKS to the UI makers for getting *THAT* part *RIGHT* !!

(and using FreeBSD was a cool idea, too)

Dependable Debian is like a rock in a swirling gyre of 'move fast and break things', and version 11 is no different

Re: Desktop is boring?

well if "NOT boring" means "constantly using intarweb bandwidth (and wall time) to 'move fast and break things' and automatically surprise you with unwanted changes and unnecessary bloatware" then I _DEFINITELY_ approve of 'boring'.

"bleeding edge" is SO overrated... [why do people do this to themselves?]

I prefer being able to get work done, and abruptly changing the rules and/or creating instability just slows me down. It's why I like Debian for a lot of things. But I admit, I use Devuan, which is mostly like that too, except no systemd.

What Microsoft's Windows 11 will probably look like

as for lipstick on a pig - the oinky end would have been better

Let's hope Micros~1 gets a clue and AT THE VERY LEAST let's US choose 3D Skeuomorphic and a "Classic" Start Menu/Button over 2D FLATTY McFLATFACE FLATSO [which they're apparently TRIPLING down on now] and a Mac-like look on the task bar...

Granted I can get that with certain desktop managers but I use Mate and want my WINDOWS SYSTEMS to be equally CONFIGURABLE BY ME. And 3D Skeuomorphic, not 2D FLATTY.

Not expecting much else. Too much disappointment and "not listening to customers" LAST time around. It is my strong belief that this practice isn't going to change no matter HOW hard the end users complain.

Realizing this is getting out of hand, Coq mulls new name for programming language

more people should watch the old Python series.

They might learn how to laugh

Re: There are two hard problems in Computer Science

They must have been well known for their

Super High Intensity Training

It's safe to leave your bunker: Blame that Chinese nuclear plant alarm on fuel rod faults

nice video - very "educational" - heh

Re: released in "accordance with regulations,"

"a buildup of noble gasses"

There is only ONE thing that can cause this: Fuel Element Failure. (the article does describe this)

Fuel rod containment failed and allowed fission products into the primary coolant. Not only could this corrupt the physics parameters [because fuel can ALSO circulate] it can greatly increase the radiation hazards when working on the plant while it is shut down ['crud' traps with dangerous levels of gamma radiation, as opposed to something you could work near by for a few hours without it endangering your life]. F.E.F.'s are BAD.

Any leaks between primary and secondary systems (even tiny ones) can cause fission product gasses to end up in the 'air ejector' system of the secondary plant, which then radioactively decay into particulate matter (like Cs and Rb) which end up in the lungs and cause longer term damage. They'd also increase background radiation levels in the steam plant.

The only thing worse than a gross F.E.F. is a MELTDOWN [which is also a type of F.E.F.]

If this gas accumulation is SO bad that they have to release it (via a 'de-gas' operation which should be infrequent) into the atmosphere at levels above French safety standards, it HAS to be at least SERIOUS.

As I mentioned, fission product gasses (typically Xe and Kr) decay into particulates (typically Cs and Rb), which (as particulate) stay in your lungs for a while after you breathe in, and create "longer" term radiation damage. it's not like you can go outside and breathe fresh air to get rid of it. There is a known "biological half life" for removal of the radioactive particulates. I think it is a month or so.

The article points out that TINY F.E.F.s are acceptable (still bad but you can operate). This is why limits exist. If you are above the limit, your problem is SERIOUS and you need to SHUT DOWN and FIX it. And everything I have read in the article suggests that it's SERIOUS enough to SHUT IT DOWN, at the very least. Then they can replace or repair the affected rod and start it up again. That could take weeks, though [you would probably have to wait for decay heat and radiation to be sufficiently low, etc. beforehand]

(you KNOW the N.R.C. in the U.S. would have shut them down!)

it appears, though, that all eggs may be in one basket and there's no other source of electricity that can make up for the temporary loss of this power plant. Lack of proper planning aside, the pressure is ON to KEEP IT RUNNING ANYWAY.

We can expect further information leaking out about this event to be "filtered" accordingly. Unlike the gas releases...

Fancy the ultimate no-Air-outside-bnb? NASA willing to rent out ISS for two weeks

Re: Where are they going to sleep?

I think they need to send a few more (inflatable?) "Hotel Modules" up there to accommodate the guests.

"Hey can I get some more towels? And another bathrobe? And will there be cappuccino at the continental breakfast? You can add a bit of liqueur to mine, please."

(Don't forget to tip the bellman)

or maybe it's more like camping out under the stars... "roughing it" for fun

Mark it in your diaries: 14 October 2025 is the end of Windows 10

Re: Obvs

Windows365

Your number '365' is too large. Try subtracting a bit...

Re: Two possibilities

you mean... like

HAL is to IBM as VMS is to WNT

(I had to do a search on Dave Cutler, to discover he's the former DEC guy that helped design VMS)

Re: Two possibilities

changing over to the Linux kernel

as cool as that would be, particularly for kernel drivers (assuming they don't taint the kernel nor require signing certificates), our hopes were dashed LAST time when we all probably believed that Windows 10 would be a revert back to 7's UI...

(and a big big frowny face for that)

they will be charging for the next version

subscription, right?

"Micros~1 Windows 361" (or 359, o 352, etc.)