* Posts by d3vy

1632 publicly visible posts • joined 28 Mar 2014

Tech contractor who uses an umbrella company? UK tax is coming after them


"I'm not going to bother looking it up"

Probably should have..

If a contractor is working through an umbrella they are an employee and DO NOT PAY VAT matter what their income.

If a contra Tor is outside ir35 then your right, they have to pay VAT if/when over the threshold but if they're outside IR35 they're not working through an umbrella.

Microsoft leaves the Office, rebrands everything as 365


Ok. So thats clearly a purple anus.

Not the way I'd have gone with it but you know, Im sure Ill get used to it :)


Re: Survey missing option

Cared enough to comment though.

Spending time commenting about a logo for an office suite that you don't even use... Having a busy day there?1

1 Clearly I'm not.

California legalizes digital license plates for all vehicles


"How do you keep a person from changing the number on their e-ink plate?"

How do you stop someone replacing their Metal/Plastic plate currently?


"personalised plates to generate income from muppets are the only exception"

Not quite. The "Q" Plate exists and can be applied to existing (previously registered) vehicles under certain circumstances


Thats one way other than a personalised reg that the reg of a car can change.


Re: "can reportedly function in extreme temperatures"

"The cheapest option is probably to put an AirTag in it somewhere"

Wouldnt that only work if there was someone with an internet connected apple device nearby?


"Movements of your vehicle are being kept for how long?"

Thats a very good question - one I hadn't considered before, I assumed that once the check was complete that the data would be discarded but yeah there is a possibility to log the coordinates of where the car was picked up and in a way track the vehicle.

I'd guess that they are not doing that, or at least if they are that the data isnt generally available to the whole force/easily searchable as I'd expect that we'd hear about it by now - I have many friends in the police, some specifically in traffic who drive ANPR equipped cars and no one has ever mentioned the ability to track a vehicles movements based on where its pinged ANPR (Unless they are looking for a specific vehicle as there is definitely a way to flag a reg so that when it passes an ANPR camera they get an alert).

Is it a bird? Is it Microsoft Office? No, it's Onlyoffice: Version 7.2 released


Some of these comments are amazing.

I honestly don't understand the tribalism that exists around *checks notes* an office suite.

Who gives a crap if I use office, or libre office, or word pad? It has literally no effect on anyone's lives.


Re: but if you prefer something ... more like Office 365

"There are documents that need to be available and editable a decade or more later."

Maybe this is anecdotal but ive yet to find a file from the old days that office 2016 (The last one I paid for - Ill be upgrading again soon) cant open. Stuff I created back in word '97 still opens without any issues - maybe excel is different I didnt do much with spread sheets back in the old days but Ive had NO compatibility issues at all.


Re: but if you prefer something ... more like Office 365

"Right, so if it's critical then presumably you'd be using the appropriate tool for the job, i.e. MS Office running on either Windows or MacOS."

My main reason for remaining on windows and using office is that I know 90% of my clients will have the same setup for their employees - Makes everything much easier if Im using the same tools.

NSA super-leaker Edward Snowden granted Russian citizenship


"Snowden only helped a bit, in that he made more evidence of it public, helping the legal processes go forward."

Without his involvement its unlikely that it would have drawn quite as much international media attention and any legal action would have fizzled out.

The way it happened it was impossible to deny, the gov't were over a barrel and the outcome of the case was pretty much pre-determined at that point.


Re: I wonder

"I wouldn't count on the U.S. being in a forgiving mood no matter what he could do to help."

Unless its all an elaborate plan to GET HIM into Russia, win some trust and then start leaking back to the US.

I'd imagine that Russia has thought of this though and he'll be

1. Not privvy to any (real) sensitive information.

2. Closely watched.


"Need a karma's a bitch icon"

So you're ok with the US government illegally spying on its own citizens (and everyone else) because thats what he exposed - the government spying on you and your family.

Good news for UK tech contractors as govt repeals IR35 tax rules


Re: Contractors rejoice

"Yay say all the contractors, now we can go back to paying ourselves minimum wage, employing the wife/hubby as a director, and paying a big juicy divvy. All while simultaneously berating big tech for not paying their taxes, and being indignant at anyone who questions their own tax regime"

I'll let you in on a secret because you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder and I know it will annoy you.

Most of us never stopped, We just moved to clients who valued the service(s) that actual contractors provide.

I've literally never known the market so good, Rates are up and there are more roles going, its been a glorious 18 months - at this rate Ill be retired before I'm 50.

How's your job going?


Ill say one thing for it.

So many people panicked and stopped contracting that those of us that stuck with it have never had it so good.

Rate Increase, not had more than a day out of contract since the implementation and loads of outside IR35 work knocking around. Ive never known anything like it - Its been a great 18(ish) months


Re: Let me get this straight

"It's not being revoked. A small flaw in the last set of addition meant that technically the contractor was not liable for the determination of inside/outside.

This repeals that oversight, meaning the contractor is again liable for the determination of inside/outside again."

Just to be clear - it was not an oversight it was 100% by design, it was pretty much the sole change to the legislation.

Remember the 2021 change was EXACTLY the same change that was made in 2016 to the public sector but applied to the private sector - if it had been an oversight they would have known about it in 2017 and not pushed ahead with the 2021 implementation in the private sector.

The whole reform was put in place so that companies (who are waaay more risk averse than individual contractors) would make the determination and more often than not come down on the "inside IR35" side of the fence. Why wouldnt they, putting a contractor inside was 0 risk for them, putting them outside opened them up to possible tax liabilities for each contractor backdated for up to 6 years.

The intention was clear, force more contractors inside IR35 whether they were legitimately operating outside or not.

What's happened since however is that the two most high profile cases that HMRC have won have been against the home office and DWP - both government departments 100% funded by tax money so they have spent millions of tax payers money on litigation to recover tax payers money from a government department who will be given that same tax payers money back in their next budget next year. Its been quite embarrassing for the government.

I may be a bit cynical, but I think this is just HMRC getting ready to go after individuals who cant mount as much of a legal defence as the big companies.

Still, better than being told by a company that doesnt understand the rules that your inside when you're not!


Re: Let me get this straight

"IR35 affected - and will continue to affect - loads of different industries"

Fuck me. Someone gets it.

Ive been trying to get this through to people on here for years!


Re: Bad for permie's

"If they no longer need guys on the full payroll they will stop advertising for permies on good salaries and just go back to contractors again."

True, But those companies probably just hired people inside IR35 for short periods anyway.

Worst case, if the permies have issues.. they can always become contractors - According to some its amazing with no drawbacks... According to some.


Pretty sure IR35 came into effect back in 2000 and was reformed in 2016 and 2021.


Re: Wake me up

Oh, thats a baaaaaa-d joke.


Im going to go back through my old forum posts where people were gloating about the reforms back in 2021 and ask their opinions.

*Smug Mode Enabled*


Write to them asking for the civil servant to be fired.


Re: Wake me up

As long as I can avoid some tax on my goats I dont care.

UK's Defra and Ministry of Justice facing £120m IR35 tax bills thanks to inaccuracies in assessing contractors' status


Re: Pointless

Because it fluffs the numbers up for HMRC when they report on how much they have "saved" the country.

Its like you or I taking £100 out of our trouser pocket and putting it in a jacket pocket and then claiming to be £100 better off - pointless shuffling of funds.

I'm just waiting for the HMRC sues HMRC for IR35 non compliance headlines which are inevitable.

Amazon tells folks it will stop accepting UK Visa credit cards via weird empty email


Well, other than if I use a debit card that money leaves my bank straight away and once its gone its difficult to get back.

Whereas with a CC you generally don't pay for purchase until the next billing cycle which gives you time to spot and dispute the charge before being financially inconvenienced by it.


Re: Limited choice

"So my credit card is Mastercard and my bank debit card is just about to switch from Visa to Mastercard.

Previously if the Mastercard didn't work for a transaction I would use my Visa card. What would I do now:

Walk away from the petrol station?"

Cant speak for the other establishments but no, for a petrol station you simply need to go in, explain the situation, fill in some details and sign a "letter of intent" to pay then you can drive off and return with appropriate payment within a specified time frame (used to be 10 days).

When I worked for shell, I was told that it was a legal requirement for petrol stations to offer this - though that may have changed because it was *a long* time ago (2001).


Re: My email wasn't blank...

"And to address what another poster said, I doubt Amazon can see all your transactions because, I called them to query something and because it was card-related, they transferred me to New Day who are the actual card issuer. They're also very helpful."

Exactly this, I have worked for a company which issued "its own" cards (Both visa and mastercard depending on the country) and in every case we did not get access to any transaction data unless it was a transaction on our platform.

The real benefit to us (and the customer) was a quicker and more seamless cash out process from our platform (which may or may not have had the side effect of circumventing some regulatory stuff in some countries, Though that was always a suspicion rather than a certainty) - that and near instant reconciliation compared to the normal Authorise then wait for funds process.

Tech contractor loses IR35 tribunal appeal: 'Right' to substitute didn't mean he could, say judges


Re: Substitution?

That would work, but its not what clients want.


Re: Yet another push for us to all go work at Tesco

"When I last contracted in the UK over a decade ago I was paying 20-25% in tax, or rather retaining 75-80%"

Yeah, we don't retain that much now without doing something illegal!

I miss the days when dividends were effectively tax free :)


Re: Do it like the trades do

"Looking at the facts of this case, it looks like if they had done it on a true project basis it seems it would be fine. A real project based contract would specify the project, a delivery time and a fee scheme based on the job not the hours worked. The building industry does this all the time."

>> Yes but the building industry also does Time and Materials contracts where they bill for the time spent doing a job as well as the materials. I had a plumber in fitting new bathrooms at the start of the year, he was here for two weeks, half way through we threw a new boiler in too and then had him rip out old piping in the loft and re-tile part of the kitchen... He just billed us for the extra time and carried on. IS HE MY EMPLOYEE NOW?


Re: A couple of things here I'm surprised about

"I realise I may be sinking (parts of) my own argument here, but there's a truism in contracting circles; you're worth as much as you're paid, no more and no less."

>> This is very true, and is reflected by different clients offering different rates for more or less the same work, I might only be worth £250 a day to a client who has a tight budget and loose project deadline or I might be worth £500 a day to another client who needs something done quickly that I have prior experience of.

"Anyway point being: if you think you're worth more, go out and get it. If you can't be bothered, you're not worth it. If you're trying but nobody's prepared to pay your rate, you're not worth it."

>> Yes!


Re: I'm going to go out on a limb...

"I'm not UK based so no IR35,"

>> Nice

"but we do have mutuality of obligation built into the contract. Reason being that I'm currently performing a critical function and am in theory not easily replaced (although I suspect I'm easier to replace than they think, they're just lazy), so they wanted a 3 month notice period."

>> Yeah thats the bit that wont fly for a UK contractor in terms of IR35 its a huge red flag.

"Also no timesheets. It's a fixed-term employment contract with a defined end date."

>> Makes sense, thats not the type of contract that HMRC are concerned about, so wouldnt be an issue if you were UK based anyway.

"The concept of risking being told 'we have no work for you' and shown the door is alien to me. I'm sure it happens, but it's not a contractual basis I or my employer would be happy with. I presume it works both ways, in that you can also walk away with same-day notice?"

>> In theory yes, I could terminate the contract and leave immediately, or I could work the notice period.

Its quite one sided skewed in favour of the client, I know a lot of contractors won't even terminate early in case it gets them blacklisted by the client (or worse the agent) so most I know prefer to keep relations good and either wait until the end of the contract or if they have to, terminate but work notice.

Generally if I terminate Ill work the notice and then offer on call support at a reduced rate (or free if I want to keep the client sweet) for a period after I have left.

The main take away is that UK contractors dont really have many protections, even things built into the contract can be pretty much meaningless as the ruling in this case shows.


Re: A couple of things here I'm surprised about

Hes also said his problem is with contractors not paying tax, but then spent the majority every comment complaining that contractors get paid more than him... and for some reason he has something against testers too.

Im fairly confident that tax isn't his main issue, it might be part of it but I get the impression that his employer is a bit shit and he doesn't get paid particularly well (or thinks he is worth more than he gets).

To compound matters the same employer brings in contractors to work along side him and pays them more, now if I was being immature I'd suggest that there was a reason for his low pay and the need to bring in contractors to work alongside him even if they cost twice as much... but I'm not so Ill stick to him having a bad employer.

I'd have changed jobs by now, not sure why he hasn't, the jobs market is brilliant at the moment, I dont know why but there seems to be tonnes of well paid IT work going but for some reason this guy would rather stay where he is and complain that everyone else has it better than him and its just. not. fair.


Re: I'm going to go out on a limb...

"Then if you are not economically and emotionally able to deal with the uncertainty that comes with being paid more maybe you should make different choices rather than crying for sympathy from people who get their extra money in bonuses that never get paid because once again the company splurged the budget paying one person to work for the same money they could employ 2 graduates."

>> Mate, every one of your comments has boiled down to "They get paid more than me, its not fair", if your company needed two graduates they would hire two graduates, but they didnt they hired one contractor because they needed a job doing quickly and they didnt want to have ongoing costs of two new employees.

Ill say it again, your employer sounds terrible, why do you still work there?

Change jobs or start contracting, but don't devote years of your life to an employer who doesn't give a toss about you, it sounds like its making you really bitter and there is no reason for it, there are good employers out there who will value you and pay you what you are worth.


Re: Chasing the little guy...

100% ?

So no salary sacrifice pensions?

No ISAs?

No salary sacrifice student loan repayments?

No cycle to work schemes?

And you can wave goodbye to the 12k tax free personal allowance.

By this logic literally EVERYONE is a tax dodger.

I've just spotted the troll icon, I salute you, I was properly reeled in by that :)


Re: Good for HMRC

"All this does is that contractors will have to join big consultancies, get paid the same salaries as employees"

Funnily enough the final straw that pushed me into contracting was being TUPEd into CSC and being treated like a contractor but with none of the benefits...


Re: I'm going to go out on a limb...

"My contract doesn't allow a zero notice period except in disciplinary situations. If yours does without a very good reason, you might want to have somebody to look at it."

Seriously, you might want to get an IR35 review done, an enforceable notice period suggests Mutuality of obligation.

Also "disciplinary situations" - Holy shit, I'd speak to QDOS tomorrow morning - that isn't a T&M contract its a contract of employment.... You honestly need to get that looked at right now unless you are already inside IR35.

"Re not being paid for four months; when I was a permie one of my team was sent on assignment from his extremely-low-cost home country to a country with one of the highest costs of living in the world. His assignment wasn't set up correctly (thanks HR) so he ended up not being paid his assignment salary uplift for 2 salary cycles, and had to cover several thousand pounds of living costs for that time. He could claim back of course, but expenses were paid back with salary cycles and so it still (temporarily) destroyed his savings, current account and credit card just to stay afloat."

>> Thats a bit shitty, I can see that would be an issue. I guess the main difference there would be he KNEW he would eventually see that money again, there are tonnes of examples on the contractor forums of companies just refusing to pay, or going bust (I was at Carilion when it went down and only managed to get my last invoice covered by the skin of my teeth) or agents refusing to pay a final invoice because a timesheet hasn't been signed... There is very little comeback for contractors in this situation, but yes, Ill grant you permies can have issues too, though they generally have better protections against these things.


Going back to the notice period what I suspect you will find is that your contract (assuming you are outside IR35) has a notice period of 1-4 weeks but also has a clause that states you will be paid after submitting a completed timesheet or something equivalent AND that the client has no obligation to give you work.

In real terms this means that no work = no money, because a client can say to you "We're terminating the contract now, start your 1 month notice" and "We don't have any work for you to do, go home" in one breath and have no obligation to pay you.

This is standard practice, it happens to contractors all the time, how do you not know this?

Its happened to me a few times and at the start of lockdown last year 50+ contractors started work at 9am at my old client and were sent home by 9.30am with nothing, they got paid up to the previous day and that was it, no notice, no additional money, just a handshake and a thanks.

*THAT* does not happen to permanent employees.


Re: I'm going to go out on a limb...

"Exactly! 450 a day (~100k a year), no one outside of the executive gets paid that much, certainly no employed r&d engineer!"

>> You're back to complaining about your wages and not tax law again, I definitely know permanent software developers on 60k+ a year who's total package will be costing the company 100k+

"Here's a question for the high and mighty contactors if you really earn what you are paid how come many businesses are getting rid of you? Answer: you were never more important to the company than other engineers you were just a flexible way of managing the number of bums on seats"

>> See you say things like this and I think you understand.. yes you are exactly right CONTRACTORS ARE A FLEXIBLE RESOURCE THAT CAN BE BROUGHT IN FOR SHORT PERIODS TO FILL SKILL OR RESOURCE GAPS, I dont think its true that companies are getting rid of us, Ive had more interest in 2021/21 than in previous years, if anything companies are moving more towards contractors for project work and perm staff for support work (at least that has been my experience).

"So now we've got rid of the notion that you have somehow earned the right to be paid more and pay less tax then everyone else please explain how allowing this tax dodging helps anyone but the contractors? I want too is not a mature arguement..."

>> and you screw it up again, you were so close...

Where are you getting this notion that its an earned right?

To answer your question, I get paid more because that's what I tell clients (like your employer) that I want to be paid and they value the work enough to pay it, if you are unhappy with what you are paid then take it up with your employer, its not the fault of contractors that you don't think you are paid enough, the company can obviously afford it if they are hiring these contractors on so much more money than you...

As for the tax, again, if its within the law its not tax dodging, I pay exactly what I have to, no more, no less.

Ill bet if the next budget put income tax up by 5% you'd throw a shit fit... lets not pretend that this is about how much tax we pay, you've made it abundantly clear in your comments that your problem is that we get paid more than you. Guess what, inside IR35 we still take home more than a permie doing the same job... Its not fair but clearly companies value having flexible resources and are prepared to pay for them.


Re: All the same to me


Yes, spot on, this is WHY we get paid more.. we have to cover our own holiday pay, sick pay, Maternity, Bank holidays etc...

But when we go inside IR35 we don't get the extra money to pay ourselves holiday pay, sick pay etc and we certainly don't get it from the employers..

I'd be perfectly happy inside IR35 with Holiday Pay and Sick Pay covered by the employer, but thats not what we get, we end up with the worst of both, higher tax and no employee benefits.

As an example, I could get a Perm job paying 60k a year (net of approx 4k a month), I could also get an equivalent inside IR35 contract on 375 a day which also gives a net of 4k a month.

But as an employee I'd have pension contributions, holiday pay, sickness cover etc... So where is the incentive? I mean, I still do it because I like the lifestyle, I like changing where I work regularly (2-3 times a year).

As for this : "Contractors make the choice to loose stability and benefits and instead take themselves out of the tax system by keeping the money themselves "

You know we pay tax too right?

In my last perm job I paid about 10k a year in tax, Im now paying 20-30k a year.. We do pay tax, its just worked out a bit differently so the % looks a bit unfair.

Ive said it before and Ill say it again, HMRC makes more from contractors even outside IR35 than they do from permanent employees.

"To someone on PAYE all tax dodging is tax dodging"

I seriously hope you dont have a salary sacrifice pension or student loan payment if thats your attitude... or does that not count because thats a good form of tax dodging?


The details I saw said it was Nat West over a three year period around 2012/13

Even if it was a public sector client, The public sector rules only changed in 2016 so no, this is an old investigation that has been bubbling away for some time.


Re: Chasing the little guy...

Sorry mate, Im not picking on you, but you seem to have commented on every comment I posted yesterday...

"The same tax breaks that ordinary people get are available to wealthier people, but there are loads of loop holes that wealthy people get that ordinary people don't."

>> I have so many questions.

1. Define wealthy.

2. What tax breaks do contractors get that "ordinary" people cant? (Bearing in mind that anyone can start contracting, its scarily easy to set up a company).

"This feels like such a typical logical assignment statement I struggle to believe that you don't get it but think you deserve to be in the tech sector."

>> worthy? Your previous comment about testers had a bit of a tone to it where I got the impression that you looked down on them, I just ignored it.. but now you think that there are people who are "worthy" and I assume "unworthy" of being in the tech sector?

Who exactly judges this worthiness?

Is there an arbiter of tech?

Am I not allowed to work in IT because I want to do contract work? Despite having almost two decades of professional development experience (and close to another decade just doing it for fun).

"Here's some free advice Google "union" and "intersection" they should help you understand the concept the all can have one of something without all having one of everything. It's not all that difficult really"

>> Again, You're really sending mixed messages here, the topic is TAX LAW as it relates to contractors working to limited companies...


Re: To be honest, I don't think this goes far enough at all

"No one benefits? I think you are only seeing it from one perspective, try thinking about the employees pov: make it harder to employ temp staff and the company will have to look after its perm staff better!"

>> Interesting, you're doing it again, blaming contractors for your bad working conditions.

Do you honestly think that its contractors fault that your employer isn't paying you what you think you're worth?

"Perm staff are in fact people, taxpayers and human effing being too didn't you know?"

>> But not the testers, you didn't seem to think they were worth much in your last comment.

"The contractors like to claim employees are just jelly the contractors get paid more,"

>> Yes, that is very much how you are coming across.

"However there's also the commoditization of tech employees. Business now generally treat all tech staff as if they are not really employees, once had a 2 hour lecture in a town hall about how in India and China they can make the staff work all night and sack them if they refuse."

>> Funnily enough, they can do that with contractors too, we don't have any employment rights!

"Contractors are a convenience, employees are the real life blood of a business."

>> I agree, employees should be treated well, and again, you seem really unhappy in your job I honestly urge you to find somewhere else to work, there are employers that will pay you well and treat you fairly.

"Carry on putting contractors ahead of employees, have all tech jobs moved to India and every business in the west closed then who benefits exactly? Not the Indians, because we won't have any money to paid them anymore."

>> This seems like an odd tangent unrelated to the IR35 discussion so I'm not going to get involved in this one, I don't see a connection between contractors and offshoring development and I don't see why you think that offshoring will cause every business in the west to close.


Re: To be honest, I don't think this goes far enough at all

"The substitution argument is quite stupid anyway. Any employee who had been sick for a period of time, surely had a colleague taking over their duties. Does that make them self employed?"

There are some nuances to the substitution clause, the contractor would have to cover the costs of the substitute themselves and handle all training etc, from a financial standpoint the client is unaffected they still pay the original contractor and the original contractor pays the substitute, anything else isnt considered substitution.

But you're right, unless you are going to be unavailable for a considerable time (in which case you'd probably just terminate the contract anyway) its unrealistic to expect a substitute to be dropped in to cover unavailability for short periods.


Re: Good for HMRC

"If you pay a lower percentage of your income as tax than anyone else earning the same amount you are a tax dodger, says everyone who pays their fair share!"

>> But its the right amount as per the law, and that's what matters really.

"Contractor pay is inflated to begin with, don't give me some nonsense about how it works out the same, the same work I do goes for 400 or more a day as a contractor, I get a lot less that that"

>> I can see where the animosity is coming from now.

"but pay a higher total percentage in tax than a contractor doing the same,"

>> You pay a higher % (Marginally) but a significantly lower ££ amount.

I think you need to decide if the problem is that HMRC don't get enough tax ££

Or just that we get paid more in general.

IR35 only addresses one of these, you need to take the other one up with your employer.

My tax in my last perm role was < £10k a year, its consistently £20-30k a year as a contractor, So if I stop contracting HMRC lose money.

"I contribute my fair share, they don't, end of."

>> I love the "fair share" argument, you don't get to decide what my fair share is, HMRC do, I pay *exactly* as much as I have to and not a penny more, my accountant checks that its all within the current laws and regulations.

"So what I get one day off in 14"

>> Your working conditions are between you and your employer, if your employer is that bad change jobs.. You could even have a go at contracting, Apparently it pays really well and is very easy to do.

Of course, should you try your hand at contracting you wont have any issues, because even if the client determines that you are outside IR35 you will still put the whole lot through PAYE and pay 40p+ on every quid you earn?

"that doesn't make up for the contractors getting paid twice and taxed half as much as I do"

>> Its much less than twice and much more than half.

Once you take into account the total cost of employment of a permanent member of staff, even just the pension contributions Employers NI & Tax" employing a permanent member of staff is more expensive than just the Gross figure you see on your pay slip.

As for the tax, Ive never cared to work out what my overall % is, Its difficult because I dont take all of the money that my company gets paid out all at once.. but its probably somewhere between 20-30% of my gross (Thats a proper finger in the air guess) Assuming that you are in the lower tax bracket and have the normal £12k allowance Ill bet your overall tax % is ~19% Maybe a bit less depending if you offload money into a pension (Salary sacrificed and tax free of course).

"If that contractor wage was taxed with PAYE they would pay more tax, so compared to me and other employees they are reducing contributions, regardless of how much more in total they get paid than me. Where does the extra money go? In their pocket, not to the NHS not the police or to fight covid,"

>> In their pocket and then it gets circulated around the local economy as it is spent, We're not Scrooge McDuck, We're not just hoarding all the cash ffs.

"but to your second home and Tesla payments, grubby thieves!"

>> There's that green eyed monster again, I thought we'd seen the last of him.

Seriously though, I don't have a second home, I don't know a contractor who does, and Teslas are hardly the height of luxurious expense... I know permie staff who are driving round in significantly more expensive cars provided by their employers.. Again Speak to HR if you're not happy with your working conditions.

I have to admit I did once look at the cost of chartering a helicopter into the office once when I found out that my client had a helipad on the roof... but the cost was (shock) prohibitively expensive :)

"You are either directly benefiting from this clearly unfair situation, or you are not very bright,"

>> And we're into the personal attacks, that took longer than expected.

Bright enough to recognise a shitty employer and leave for something better...

"To give a specific example based on ability and contribution to the business: SW tester contractors get paid more than SW developers, which proves that skill and responsibility have less of an impact on pay than whether you a contactor or employed, how is that right?"

>> I'm not sure I follow your logic here, permanent software testers get paid about the same as

permanent software developers, its a skilled job, most of the testers I know ARE developers, they have different tools and goals but they write code just the same as the rest of us.

Even if they were inside IR35, they would still earn more than a permie they'd just pay more tax, We're getting back to the uncertainty about what you're really annoyed with.

Again, If you're not happy with your salary, I cant help you, speak to HR.

"It's either you get paid more OR you pay less tax for losing 1/14 days now both, contractors make a free choice to get both and still cry all over the internet about it."

>> Its not just paid holidays we lose, we also get no sick pay, no paid bank holidays, pretty much enforced unpaid leave over xmas, no pension contributions, no redundancy, no notice period, no job security, (Ive started work at 9 one morning and been sent home by 10 because the project has been cancelled, when was the last time that happened to a permie?)... We also have to pay for accountants & insurance, save enough to cover potential sickness & holidays. I think that list is long enough but its by no means exhaustive.

Like I said, I'm unclear if your complaint is that we don't pay enough tax of just that we earn more than you, you seem to swing from one to the other but mainly focus on the latter, so I guess your main problem is that you're not happy with your working conditions, I sympathise, I have definitely been there.

If you want to have a bash at contracting I'd be happy to give advice and details of agents and accountants, I don't hold a grudge because someone has a different opinion than me :)

As a bonus, if you do start contracting you will likely be forced inside IR35 now anyway so you wont have to worry about any of this (And you will *STILL* take home more than a permie).

Well, this has been a bit more of an essay than expected.. I'd better get back to counting that hoard of krugerrands I've been keeping in my swimming pool sized vault. :)

Have a good one.


Very unlikely to now too now that liability is with the client or fee payer contractors won't be getting targeted as much, easier to go after a bank with 100 contractors than one individual.


Definitely, there is no real incentive for clients to put contractors outside.. and quite a risk if they do so most clients are opting to put contractors inside.

I think what is happening is that because there is now more competition for the outside contracts it's pushed rates down a bit so some companies are taking advantage, taking the risk, and finally handling contractors properly.

Some are definitely just saying "everyone is inside" and having done with it... But not all.


Re: Looks like the new law is working as intended

They've been going up for the last 3-4 years contract rates on the other hand have hardly changed in 10.


Re: Chasing the little guy...

"The solution is simple just pull all your income into paye and nobody will chase you."

All income? Is this going to apply to everyone? Anyone getting dividends from shares they hold in a company? Should those be taxed as PAYE income?

Where exactly do you draw the line on what income is taxed as PAYE?

Unless you can truthfully tell me that you pay tax on EVERY single penny you earn, not take advantage of salary sacrifice pension contributions, never paid back a student loan via salary sacrifice or saved in a tax free Isa then I'll think that you're talking out of your hole and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.