Posts by codejunky 7117 publicly visible posts • joined 24 Oct 2011
@seven of five
"Yes, everybody else being unreasonable is exactly your problem."
Your the one who apparently had a reasoned contribution but saw it was me so backed away from airing it. Presumably because you dont want your opinion questioned or challenged. Other people seem able to reply so whats your problem?
@Missing Semicolon
"It's illegal state aid. The EU has rules against this (which were, of course, ignored for years when it was Luxembourg doing it)."
The selective application of the rules does make a mockery of the system. But even without that I agree about the state aid, which wasnt offered by Apple but by Ireland. This is where the one to break the rules isnt the target of punishment.
"Ireland was originally adjudged to have done so."
Spot on I dont disagree. So why is it Apple being punished for following the agreement with the lawmaker when its the lawmaker who broke the rules. My only issue with this is how Apple must pay for Ireland's actions.
@seven of five
"I would have explained, but then I saw it is you."
I do seem to have that effect on people who dont seem to have much by way of reason or thought through argument. But I appreciate the comment, normally I just get quiet downvotes
"Have it your way: Yes, the EU is wrong and the root of all evil up to and including the crucifiction, probably made the dinosaurs extinct as well."
Oh jeez are you one of those who thought the EU stopped the next world war or something? Sorry if this is a shock to you but the EU isnt that old.
However if you do think you have a reasoned thought as to why Ireland offering Apple a deal is not the fault of Ireland then do tell.
@Dave559
"I don't think that governments have a monopoly on that particular outcome"
Very true. An AC above made a similar point. The difference is that private business eventually falls when it cannot adapt or sustain itself, but government doesnt have the same restriction. Instead the more a government spreads the more resources it takes and the more incompetence it inflicts.
"but in either case, the airship must always keep flying, and you can only ever do in-flight repairs, rather than bring it down for a complete rebuild"
Absolutely. The best we can do is to chop off the excess parts and slim the government occasionally. The excess will grow back but not often will it shrink willingly.
@AC
"But mysteriously, companies do choose to expand"
Very true. There are some lovely buildings from the ages gone by in manufacture and trade. And they also went out of business to be the home of pound shops. The world does as it does and changed, and they couldnt keep up. Such is the natural churn.
Now with government they dont churn as a lot of the public service dont. Instead the world moves on and whatever is in the realm of the government (and its branches) stays behind. Such as fax machines and the NHS.
"You seem to have confused the fact that politics seems to attract awful, incompetent people with the idea that government itself, by virtue of some mysterious innate property that it has, must necessarily be bad."
Some government is needed. But the bigger it gets and the more it tries to do leads to more incompetence. As your very words there clearly explain.
@John Riddoch
"The solution is a more /competent/ government"
That might be the dream. The soviet union was waiting for the 'new man'. Unfortunately we must work with what we have and not the hypothetical utopia. We wont get a competent government, especially the larger it gets.
The AC is correct, 'More government' can only lead to more incompetence.
@John Robson
"We can control what we do"
Now yes. But as the members are finding out not them.
"but your complaint is that the EU are treating us as the third country which we now are."
When did I complain about that? I aint complaining.
"but the level of doublethink required to even vaguely consider that we have yet seen a single benefit from leaving the EU is beyond comprehension by anyone with any contact with the ground."
The expectation was we would have to wait years to see the benefits. However we have already seen huge benefits before the end of the transition period-
> The covid bailout fund which was slow to deploy and is just another expensive chain to tie the members to the club. Easily justifying the 'costs' of brexit to make this saving.
> The covid vaccine ordering cockup of the EU where they didnt just make a crisis worse, but then piled on further to make it even worse.
> As tip pc is kicking your ass about here, the lack of organisation or thought that goes into the wild and flailing actions of the EU. That all important GFA was forgotten quickly and required a loud reminder from the UK and Ireland.
> The actions being considered that the EU might seize the intellectual property and production of vaccine in the EU. An act in response to the vaccine producers fulfilling contracts by rule of law.
As per your complaints of lorry tailbacks and difficulty trading with the EU. Thats what we leavers have been telling remainers for years and being told it wasnt the case. The EU forced us to impose that border on the rest of the world as with every member. Now we need to work on reducing such impositions for our imports from the world.
@John Robson
"You can't claim to want control of borders and simultaneously claim that there shouldn't be a border between the UK and the EU."
Why? I have heard this a few times and I expect you to be using the same mistaken assumption, but why cant we want control to do what we choose (on our side of the border)?
"Now accept responsibility for the consequences of that decision."
I do. I am quite happy so far. Still happy with my choice.
@John Robson
"No, a border has two sides... We have moved outside and so the border is between the EU and the UK"
How can you say that and yet still not understand that means the EU does what it wants with its side and the UK does what it wants with its side? You keep explaining why blaming the UK is wrong and then blame the UK.
"we are the only party to have erected it."
This is entirely wrong. The UK said it had no intention of erecting a hard border. So that is entire bull.
"The erection of a border across the island of Ireland is entirely and solely the responsibility of the UK."
Entirely against what you wrote before about there being 2 sides. Entirely against the fact that the UK clearly said they had no intention of making a hard border. Again you seem able to do the working out but entirely deny the answer it provides.
"Would there be a discussion about a border if the UK hadn't exited the EU? No"
So you think the UK should be forced to remain in the EU against the wishes of the population who consistently voted to leave just because the EU finds it difficult to talk about borders? I thought the purpose of the EU was this fantastic trade union to take on the world? If it cant wrap its head around a border negotiation then what use is it? Sounds as dumb as not reading the contract for Covid vaccine and crying that they wont get as much as they hoped.
"Did the EU force the UK to leave? No"
And so we can leave no problem and if the GFA is as big an issue as is pretended then the EU can negotiate over the border for Ireland exclusively. Not the UK's fault if we leave a voluntary group and the EU choose to break a prior agreement unrelated to our membership.
"Did the UK's broken electoral system allow a few wealthy maniacs to fuck us up completely? Yes"
Waaaaa. Yeah you lost, get over it.
@John Robson
"It's not a new border that they have created. We have moved outside an existing border.
Why should they treat us differently from the rest of the world?"
Ok thats fine. Which comes back to the UK isnt breaking the GFA by not trying to put up a border. As you say its the EU's border and how they choose to treat us.
"The border across the island of Ireland is therefore new"
It already existed with different rules applied even while in the EU.
"And that border is between the UK and the UK, and is the fault of the UK."
Only for agreeing to such a shabby deal. We should have insisted the border between ROI and EU or we aint interested in a border (on our side). ROI are currently noticing a big problem that they cant get working vaccine from the UK because the EU dictates they cant (havnt approved it yet).
"The border has in no way been created by the EU"
No matter how many times you repeat this lie you disprove it with your own description of events. I dont think you can get past this because while you seem able to do the step by step process to reach the answer you deny the answer at the end. 2+2=4. You are fine with the 2+2 bit but insisting the result is 25 against everything even you agree with is ridiculous.
@John Robson
"We have chosen to move outside an existing border, such that it now exists between the UK and the EU - that is entirely our decision... nothing to do with the EU at all."
And we agree on that.
"From their perspective they are merely implementing the border which has already existed, but now in the new position which we have created."
And we agree on that to a point. I entirely make that my point, you seem to be claiming that its the UK who is making that border, but as you say and I agree its the EU's border. Their side. Thats the bit you seem stuck on over all this discussion.
"There is no way to have a purely technological border, there are plenty of technological approaches to paperwork that can help smooth the border, but physical checks are still needed..."
As we did in the single market. We still did checks, just not many.
Back to the covid train it seems the EU is again dictating to members and showing their loss of sovereignty-
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/health/covid19-vaccine-oxford-ireland-brexit-19672792
Ireland wants vaccine, EU says no. The assumption seems to be this is to somehow punish the UK for brexit although I am happy to assume its the usual power mad inflicting their will on the people. Add that to the agreement for members not to negotiate with vaccine companies that the EU is currently negotiating with (Germany trying to do this) and brexit is looking like a just in time escape.
@John Robson
"So national sovereignty only matters when it agrees with you... There are four countries that make up the country of the UK..."
Did I say national sovereignty only matters when it agrees with me, or are you making shit up again? They are part of the UK, by choice.
"We didn't make any vaguely plausible offers of anything resembling a border across Ireland."
We did. Even technological options the EU is considering rolling out themselves, but the options were rejected by the EU.
"No quite - if we don't check or limit imports without a specific trade treaty then it is illegal to check or limit imports from any country in the world... Your oh so special WTO rules apply to us as well."
Yes quite. And I am not suggesting we treat the EU any different than the rest of the world. Catching up yet?
"You're the one complaining that we have a border."
Nope. Try again.
"The very simple fact is that *we* have created a border, and you seem very surprised that a border exists."
This is the huge mistake I keep tearing apart, that *we* havnt created the border. The border already existed and the UK had no interest in making a hard border, only the EU wanted to. So its the EU's choice if they wished to make one.
That you can go step by step and still deny the fact at the end is now boring. I was amused when you used your mental gymnastics and contradictory claims to try and claim something resembling reason. That is why I continued responding so long after the topic died off. But your just claiming black is white because you refuse the result is boring. Cmon amuse me.
@John Robson
"NI didn't choose to be dragged out of the single market, they voted to remain in the EU - but their national sovereignty doesn't matter to you."
NI are part of the UK and the UK voted to leave. That you seem to think that means they were dragged out shows the UK sovereignty doesnt matter to you.
"The ROI hasn't changed it's position at all - the UK has"
By saying we dont want a hard border and offering various options not to have one that the EU rejected. Which is their choice and they are free to choose. As I keep saying.
"Since peace on the island of Ireland is predicated on *not* having a border there we have now a situation where there isn't even a single customs market in the country of the UK."
Which shows what a bad sell out the government has been in leaving NI partially under the EU. If peace is predicated on no hard border and our side isnt interested in one anyway then it wouldnt be our problem nor would we be worth targeting for any trouble. And its not up to us what the EU choose to do.
"We are currently failing to check goods from the EU"
And did we before? And do we want to? Do we care? If we are performing the same checks as before that is our freedom to do so. As I keep pointing out.
"There will be checks on goods inbound when we can be bothered to actually make that plan"
When. If. And whatever checks we are willing to perform.
"If you are in a walled garden and then leave it, you don't get to complain that you can't see the garden now because it has a wall."
Your complaining not me.
"Given that you can't understand this simple concept I have no interest in continuing to listen to your ignorance with respect to covid."
After having pretty much every mistaken point you have made burned down I am not surprised.
@John Robson
"We can - be we deliberately broke the one regarding our customs union. So you need to move anything from an area with one set of rules to an area with another set of rules... Where do you think the check is made that the appropriate rules have been followed?"
You are getting there. So the EU have their side and the UK have their side. NI and ROI which choose to be part of those separate unions. And the UK decides it doesnt want to do anything about the border, so doesnt. So who does that leave? Who is left to decide? EU and to a lesser extent ROI. So which one wants the hard border? And that resolves this entire discussion we have had taking us back to the EU being the one wanting the hard border.
"The public sector at the highest level has failed massively... They have resisted any attempt to suppress the virus until it's far too late."
Thats what I said.
"And you think they've done too much to control it - that's why I think you're drinking kool-aid."
Eh?
"Is that why the UK national debt (as measured against GDP) stayed static for the duration of the last Labour government, right up to the 2008 global financial crisis."
You forget the extensive use of PFI contracts, the raid on pensions and selling off assets including gold. After the largest boom in history Labour was vastly unprepared for the recession and was still spending heavily.
"The NHS has received less money each year (again measured against GDP) consistently throughout the tories current regime."
Good. Because the NHS is getting more money than in Browns spending spree and year on year typically requires a 4% increase of a developed country which means actual growth of around 2% annually. Aka the NHS gets more expensive and eats into the budgets of other public spending.
"No - because you aren't supporting the wearing of masks, and the reduction in close contact which is required to reduce the spread of this virus."
I am not against masks I am just not authoritarian in their use. Also I have no problem with the reduction of close contact, keeping a distance and washing frequently being very effective. I am against imposing the excessive lockdowns which you say- 'That's why we have the highest COVID death rate in the world at the moment.'. If ours is so bad then why didnt we follow the Swedish approach then?
"The government is starting to think about quarantine for people coming into the country... that should have been implemented eleven months ago."
Why? Looking at the haphazard muddling through of various countries (which we all have to do with this unexpected pandemic) there is uproar if we allow flights and uproar when people are stranded because we dont. All the while the lockdown kills people and destroys livelihoods.
"We spend less on healthcare in this country per capita than france, germany, sweden, canada. japan, the usa."
Not sure if all of them but most of those use private healthcare. Is that what you are promoting?
"The NHS isn't a black hole of finances"
Thats one you might want to defend. It requires more every year as a proportion of the spending budget to keep it alive in mismanagement and middle management. Even after the Blair/Brown splurge where money was pissed up the wall the NHS is a poor performer in healthcare rankings except for free at the point of use (aka equally poor service for everyone). Procurement and constant IT failures at great expense and needing the army to fix its poor logistical ability in time of crisis. Focusing on sugar and salt and dictating what we can eat but failing in basic shutting doors to the covid ward.
"organisation which provides world class healthcare free at point of delivery"
I have a bridge to sell you. It is so world beating that nobody models their healthcare system on ours. And while you claim it is world beating you complain it is chronically underfunded and you say 'That's why we have the highest COVID death rate in the world at the moment.' even though we have strict lockdowns.
@John Robson
"And why do we have a defined edge to our sovereign rights?"
Because different 'tribes' have their own set of rules. Scaled up to the country level where we have our own laws and regulations and others have their own. E.g. UK doesnt tell EU what to do and EU dont tell UK what to do. But we can make agreements.
"Ok - now you've really been at the kool-aid."
Which bit did you miss? If you are questioning the public sector failure handling the Covid crisis then you are sucking down the kool-aid.
"How many beds do you think the NHS has lying around all the time, how many nurses are just sat around twiddling their thumbs on a daily basis."
A lot of beds since they are using private too. Also they built extra capacity to show off their quick reaction time. As for nurses, again misallocation of resources means that qualified people have to pass on information via phone instead of tending patients. Usual healthcare particularly preventative healthcare is on hold. Yet from personal experience they cant even close covid ward doors (that are signed to be secured!!!) or figure out what protective gear is needed. Letting people into covid wards without PPE sometimes while others requiring full garb (to enter the same ward).
"The NHS has been chronically underfunded by the tory party"
Then it must have been shit. Labour spent 13 years and more money than the country could sustain to fund the NHS and the Tories currently give it more than Brown did at his peak. If thats your excuse.
"who have also managed to leave us tens of thousands of nurses short as a result of the hard tory brexit you seem so keen on"
I can only assume you mean from the EU if your talking brexit. The place short of vaccine and probably desperate for such workers then.
"How can the NHS protect us if they are all infected with Covid because you and your ilk couldn't be bothered to wear a mask, wash your hands, and stay a little way away from other people?"
Interesting. So the very actions which I am all for (the mask being somewhat in question) you support as the answer. Awesome we can agree on something.
"The NHS isn't some magical fairy land, it's a massive institution that does more for the UK than you can possibly imagine, and yet governments keep trying to starve it..."
The black hole that gets more money than can be sustained and fails us (and the doctors and nurses) in time of crisis. The ever growing maw of (mis)management which attacked people for living and was totally unprepared and implemented policies which actively went against defending against the virus? Also you know the gov is part of the public sector? So your comment before about attacking its failure as drinking kool-aid is wrong?
@John Robson
"Do you think the UK needs a border (anywhere)?"
Yes. The UK does have a border. That would be the defining edge where the UK has its sovereign rights.
"As for finances... EY reckons that more than 7,500 jobs and at least £1.2tn of assets have been moved from Britain to the EU since the referendum in 2016..."
Ok. Assuming that is correct how does that balance with assets moved normally and assets moved into the UK?
"Given that we haven't go ongoing stability, they're not coming back - and more will join them."
Thats assumption. If the problem is ongoing stability then they must be fleeing the EU, at least the EU proper (Eurozone). While I would expect some to leave and not come back where the EU is the only reason they exist, that leaves everyone else including those moving to the UK.
"That's not a failed vaccine, it's a vaccine which has seen a setback. That's what happens in research."
Ok so the vaccine doesnt work and so has a setback. Vs working vaccines that have been delivered in the UK and US and elsewhere but the EU failed in its ordering process badly. But seems it wasnt allowed to order more than the French 'setback' by the French.
The project is worth more than lives.
"If you carried on "as normal" then covid would have hospitalised so many that the NHS would have collapsed"
Except it wasnt a capacity issue it was public sector failure. At one point the gov panicked due to numbers in London but until the new strains of faster spreading it was a total failure of the health service. The failure of testing took too long for the public sector to sort out.
"It is absolutely vital to prevent total collapse of the NHS that the rest of society does its part."
As has been noted in public, we must protect the NHS although surely it should have been the NHS to protect us?
@AC
"Thanks but no thanks for the offer to "jump ship""
It wasnt an offer, it was advice. Take it or leave it. The decision isnt for anyone else its for you and your country to decide what is best for you guys. And again the distinction is important that while we have no love for the EU that doesnt mean we wish any ill will on the member countries nor their populations.
"but we EU Citizens very much prefer this ship* more than ever before."
I would imagine a group who want to leave the club would leave more people who want to be in the club (unless the whole thing was being deserted). But it will be interesting to see the popularity figures as the EU is making this crisis worse.
I wish you the best of luck.
@AC
"To put it as clearly as possible, we (EU) as far as I am able to tell, collectively wish you Brits no ill. I don't understand the vitriolic comments i have seen, here (a few) and elsewhere."
This is where there is an important distinction to be made between the EU and the countries/people in the countries. The EU toss-pot has been nothing but vitriol to the UK for leaving the little club. Anyone supporting leave has been accused of wanting our people to die because we didnt join the EU procurement initiatives. We are readily abused for not bending over for the EU and so we take great pleasure watching the EU expose itself exactly as we described and so spectacularly.
Compare that against the countries/people and we wish you no ill. In fact we are shocked the EU wants you to die so blatently. It is the EU banning vaccine from NI to ROI, or even anywhere else in the EU. That the EU would consider you so expendable is not surprising to us but the blatant disregard for you is sick.
I do wonder if members will wake up to this and we see more exits from the EU, but I wont hold my breath. Even if a member gets the courage they now have a mutual EU debt to strangle them with. My advice- get off the titanic, it is sinking.
@Citizen99
"I'm surprised that this detail hasn't been mentioned"
I wouldnt be shocked if its been lost in the cesspool of EU actions over this. I am yet to see anything redeeming for the EU over the vaccine procurement. The EU again took a crisis and made it worse.
@serendipity
"But that said, now would be a good time IMO, in the interests of future EU relations, for the UK government to offer to help the EU with supplies"
Why? From start to finish of the vaccine procurement the EU has not only cocked up but they have done the usual EU process of making a deeper crisis out of a crisis. They are now talking about enacting wartime occupation of production. At no point is the EU being gracious or nice or deserving of any help until they learn to grow up.
Remember we are 'plague island' to them, on top of needing to slap us down for daring to leave their club. The expectation of having to wait some time for the benefits of brexit materialising months before the end of the transition period. An amusing suggestion I heard was for us to offer the British army to do vaccinations in the back of Chinook helicopters with British flags stamped on everything for the French.
But this is just incompetence of the EU where they need to wait for the logistics to be worked out (apparently they are short of raw materials) which was figured out in the UK because we signed the damn contracts 3 months before. Have the EU even approved the vaccines yet?
When the EUSSR is talking about seizing the production because the private companies are rightfully fulfilling contracts by law the foolish dream that those lot are our friends needs to be dropped. We should only consider helping them when they stop their frothing venom for the UK. Hell maybe now is a good time to suggest that since they have difficulty with our existing brexit agreement we should revisit it.
@AC
"A company is worth what it's worth"
And what is that? How much is a company worth? That is only decided by the many small transactions in this world where people trade based on how each individual values a company. Some of the most important and impressive companies started with such negative value until they broke through.
"The stocks market is just a giant casino"
Not entirely. There is a reason pensions rely on the stock market, because real growth is reflected in there. Yes there is gambling and people taking a punt, but gambling is not illegal and investment is a risk which MUST be made for anything.
@Khaptain
I like the wording 'No criminal activity has been proven'. Biden has done wonders for reversing the lefts guilty unless proven innocent. First its metoo where women must always be believed and mere accusation should stop Trump appointees, until Biden gets accused and then we shouldnt overreact. Now with crooked family member dealings and foreign connections.
Hell apparently the FBI sat on Hunters laptop of evidence so as not to upset the election but tapped Trumps phones on a dodgy dossier
@CRConrad
"There was Russian interference. The Muller investigation proved it in court; people went to prison."
Which an entire impeachment effort against Trump exposed the Steele report and spying on a presidential candidate with probably knowledge by the acting president. Yet she still peddled the idea that Trump won because of it.
Amusingly a report on interference this time showed Russia for Trump but other interference from other countries for Biden. Is that why Trump lost?
"Funny how you Nazi-enabling-terrorist apologists fail to see that little difference."
I assume if I am Nazi enabling terrorist apologist then your a commie enabling terrorist apologist?
@sanmigueelbeer
This looks to be quite an important update. It is a shame there isnt more detail of what went on but that would only invite the judgement of public opinion (as we are all doing here).
I do wonder if Gia Colosi's comments flipped around would cause uproar with the feminazi brigade. But the falling on her sword is somewhat noble.
@Loyal Commenter
"Nice out-of-context shot there, but no score. A few bad eggs amongst tens or hundreds of thousands does not equate to one neo-nazi running down a non-violent protester."
I just worked through your logic. Not my fault if you disagree.
"Care to explain your nonsequitur? What has the DPRK got to do with anything?"
You tried to claim ANTIFA = anti fascist which as a label maybe but by action not quite. Hence DPRK which gets the Korea bit right.
"Where any number of black people killed by white cops, who often don't even get sacked is cause for protest."
A protest continuing after a swift trial where they did everything they could to convict the officer and quickly.
"You have to be especially obtuse to not see that there is some preferential treatment going on there."
Lets accept that for the moment. So why are you giving preferential treatment to one lot of protesters/rioters over another?
"because I was quite clear that criminal damage should be punished"
You were clear that BLM protesters were mostly peaceful while the capitol had a lot of thugs, but didnt seem to find anything to differentiate them significantly. You seemed to excuse the violence of the former as 'orchestrated by the far right counter-protesters, or by those in power' but the latter as 'a large number of thugs, some of whom had gone prepared to enact acts of violence'. Your footnote mentioned something about being treated equally, which is what I am pressing you for here.
"Five people died"
But how many at the Capitol protest?
"People went equipped with cable-ties and built a gallows with the intent of executing elected representatives"
Vs protesters going with masks and Molotov? Home made shields to protect from tear gas?
"That does not equate with "some violence" no matter how hard you argue that it does."
I dont argue it equates with 'some violence'. Just as the riots before wernt. As much as you argue it does.
"One of these was a wide scale movement advocating equality, and demanding justice for people who demonstrably have been murdered"
Police called to deal with criminals even being seriously attacked by armed criminals being protested. Demonstrably.
You are trying to justify mob violence but condemn another mobs violence. Then telling me they are not equal because you believe in one set of reasons (which have proven to have errors) but not the others (as you say has also got errors).
@Loyal Commenter
"Got those eyes screwed up nice and tight when looking at literally any news site then?"
I assumed you ment here unless you stalk me. But you know this isnt a topic about brexit yes? But as your bugbear you want to go completely off topic? Or did you just want to run the T-Shirt idea by people?
@Loyal Commenter
"The Orange One, on that occasion, claimed there were "very fine people on both sides"." and "Of course, if you take any crowd of people, there are going to be some "bad eggs"."
Seems you and Trump agree.
"He has also been quite vocal in labelling "Antifa" as a "terrorist organization", despite the fact that being opposed to fascism"
The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea would explain that issue.
"on the simple grounds that most people can see that racial inequality"
Where any black person killed by cop is cause for a riot until the truth came to light.
"It doesn't take a lot of looking around to see that the vast majority of violence at BLM protests was orchestrated by the far right counter-protesters"
Who tore down statues? Looting, burning and destroying? Really? Then I assume you will claim it is far left protesters who stormed the capitol building.
"A good example of this is Trump himself using riot police to move a non-violent sitting protest from in front of a church, with force, so that he could have a photo-op holding a bible up"
Was that the Church burned and damaged by the protesters? The one boarded up behind him?
"So, yes, there was some violence associated with BLM protests"
No shit. Just as there was some violence at the capitol
"including some impromptu statue-dunking in this country"
Criminal damage of public property yes.
"but it is self-evident that the majority of BLM protesters have been, and continue to be peaceful and respectful"
As with most of the protesters at the capitol I would expect.
"Contrast this with a rioting mob last week, where there may indeed have been some non-violent protesters, but there were also a large number of thugs, some of whom had gone prepared to enact acts of violence"
And here is the problem. You have just there described the BLM/ANTIFA protests and the capitol protest. To me I read both events as you describe. Look at the above quote and the one before to see the difference in your description of the same trouble. One is peaceful and respectful, one with a large number of thugs. Yet in both instances you accept the same thing, A protest with a number of 'bad eggs'.
"I don't recall BLM protesters chanting about executing people"
https://www.newser.com/story/295004/2-cops-injured-as-portland-protest-is-declared-a-riot.html
https://www.wsj.com/articles/we-hope-they-die-11600031160
"The two things are just not comparable, and by trying to equate them, you are putting yourself firmly on the side of the fascists."
So if I point out the serious similarities between the actions of violent groups and violent groups you think I am a fascist. But if I ignore one violent group but condemn the other I am not fascist? Why cant I be against both?
"tore it down and threw it in the docks in Bristol had to be treated equally in the eyes of the law, which means, unfortunately for them, arrests and criminal damage charges"
And it should be equally in the eyes of the law shouldnt it?
@Loyal Commenter
"If BLM protesters had assaulted the Capitol, or someone of a Middle-Eastern appearance (or the wrong subset of Abrahamic faith) I'm sure there would have been no hesitation in using the word."
Yet attacking federal buildings wasnt a problem until it was the Capitol or even the wrong mob. As for destruction of property Pelosi apparently said “People will do what they do.”.
@Loyal Commenter
"I notice he has been very quiet about how well brexit is going as well."
Have I? Last I remarked was the success of the vaccination purchase, except by the EU who screwed it up badly.
A lack of brexit bad stories seems to have kept the remainers quiet.
"I'm thinking about getting myself a "Project Fear was right" T-Shirt made up..."
Please do! It will be so funny! I wish those who wanted the Euro in the UK did that too! Then we could see those who quietly shamed back to the shadows.
@LDS
"Which ones? References, please."
Valid request. China and Iran officially mentioned- https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53702872
"Hillary is free to think what she likes."
As is Trump.
"and sent a mob to the Capitol to block the declaration."
Instead of asking for peaceful protest to the Capitol fermented the idea that the Russians got Trump elected and was their puppet.
"And he asked Putin instead of the FBI and US courts? But oh yes, FBI and US courts are rigged too, despite he put his people in those places as well."
The same FBI that had tapped his phones because of a dodgy dossier? The same FBI with evidence against Hunter Biden but not willing to follow it up until after the election? That one?
"That said, Clinton should have never used her personal mail server for State mails, just like Trump should have never used his own Twitter account for the same reason."
Agreed. I aint trying to justify the actions of one over the other. To me its a continuation of the same. Even now some people try to justify BLM and ANTIFA riots and destruction but condemn this mob. Its all the same and all wrong.
@Geoffrey W
Very possible. His misdemeanour's may not have been enough to remove him and maybe it is an issue of the company or its higher ups. It does sound an overreaction for the single comment of 'nazi' but seems to have a lot of space for prior and further problems by mentioning past actions and 'battle of words'.
There is enough missing information to make it difficult to ascertain right and wrong.
@LDS
"The Russian interference was not fake news..."
Ok, Interestingly interference from other countries in favour of dems was left out for the recent election.
"If that was enough to steal an election or not we don't know - and no one ever asserted it."
Hillary doesnt think Trump could win without it.
"Still, there's Trump on record asking Russian cybercrooks to compromise Democrats systems - and it happened, also."
Was that when Trump wanted someone to expose the deleted information from the server Clinton shouldnt have been running and had data removed before it could be investigated?
"After all, dictators understand better each other than they understand those pesky democratic leaders. who keep on talking about "respect", "rules", "checks and balances", etc. etc."
Dont disagree.
@NerryTutkins
"At no point though did Hillary refuse to accept the actual result of the election, or contest it in court."
Instead promoting the Russian interference to the public which of course fuelled anti-president sentiment.
"Neither did she encourage a mob of her supporters to go to the capitol and storm it, or otherwise create violent mayhem."
I too dont know of Hillary doing so. I do remember Dems defending the actions of rioters damaging federal property and promoting bailout funds for criminals of the riots. Violent mayhem being a good way to describe it.
"Obama invited Trump to the whitehouse in the time after the election and before Trump was inaugurated, there is film of this visit."
And? What does this have to do with the price of fish?
"I really don't see how you can try to draw parallels here?"
Destruction of property. Anti government riots. Dissent encouraged by a political party. The progression of events doesnt seem to have deviated just because its the other sides mob that did something.
@disgruntled yank
"I checked yesterday, and it takes about 30 seconds to find Hillary Clinton's concession speech of November 9, 2016. YouTube has it in full."
Congrats. It takes about the same amount of time to find her complaining about the Russians interfering in the elections and that Trump is Putins puppet. Poor dear cant seem to understand she lost.
"attempted to bully the Georgia Secretary of State, into reversing Biden's victory there."
Ok. And? Do you think I am going to try and justify that?
"Nobody that I remember tried to impeach the incumbent because of the 2016 election"
Really? Because it certainly looked that way. And followed on from the Steele dossier which followed the 'tax' claims which was an ongoing assault on a presidential candidate and elected president.
"The House did impeach the president because of his attempt to barter with the Ukrainian government--dirt on Biden in return for (approved and appropriated) aid."
While the FBI sat on evidence against Hunter Biden so as not to influence the election. Which had a Ukraine connection if I remember right.
"So, no, we (at least for "we" defined as codejunky and disgrunted yank) cannot agree."
Thats ok. Difference of opinion and all. I dont defend Trumps actions, I do however see he is using a similar approach as his opposition but now they are trying to impeach him again! Almost as if they are afraid of him running in 2024.
While we dont know the specifics this is where silencing, no platforming and general intolerance to opinion can lead to overreaction. Maybe it was his prior attitude and actions and this was a last straw or excuse to get rid, mentioning there were nazis there should be no different than mentioning socialists/Marxists were at BLM and ANTIFA 'protests'
If an even hand was applied to the political situation this might possibly have gone differently.
@First Light
"It is a pure fiction that the election was stolen"
And yet for 4 years all we heard was how the Russians stole the election. Even a dodgy dossier, wire-tapping a contented for the presidential election and trying to impeach him due to delusions of a stolen election.
"I have no sympathy for the "good people" who showed up to support such BS."
What sympathy can be given to the BLM rioters and those 'good people' who showed up to the destruction of federal property, killings, riots and looting. Good job calls to defund the police were ignored otherwise the mostly peaceful protest at the capitol could have been a problem.
"a cult of personality believing in unproven and unprovable nonsense"
Or worse disproved nonsense where riots and protests start because of criminals actually attacking police officers and civilians. And those democrats who set up funding to bail out such people should be treated with the same even hand of justice as applied to Trump.
I am sure we can agree?
@JWLong
" Good to see the PC crowd get slapped down every once in a while."
The amount of power given to such PC nutters is insane. I wonder if it was a PC nutter inside the company or an overreaction because of nutters outside the company. But yes its nice to see the push back against it
@Doctor Syntax
"Nobody's blaming the victims here. The victims are those whose data was copied, not the company that was supposed to have been safeguarding them."
Except for the damage to the company. Whatever else gets stolen from the company, violating and potentially adding holes to the security, running damaging software on compromised systems not to mention reputation.
For anyone seriously thinking about this as a solution I suggest reading The Art of Intrusion- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Intrusion-Exploits-Intruders-Deceivers/dp/0471782661/ref=sr_1_1
There must be a reasonable effort made to secure systems but if people cant get their heads around computers not being inherently secure then they should probably go back to school.
@oiseau
"The only way that this will eventually stop is to heavily fine the company that allowed this to happen."
Why? The company isnt the criminal. Someone was recently caught in a US airport living there for 3 months and entering restricted areas. Should the airport be prosecuted over someone elses actions?
Do we prosecute victims of burglary and accuse them of allowing it to happen?
Assuming reasonable care which is all we can all do in every aspect of our lives we cannot assume things are unbreakable by people who will plug away at targets out of curiosity or malice until they get in.
The security must withstand every attack. Only one attack must get through. Anyone feeling that godlike needs an ego check.
@MachDiamond
"If everything was down to the President, including the micromanagement, there is no sense in having a legislative branch at all."
If it is all to blame on one person then surely he should be considered for credit in pushing for a vaccine that should have taken years (originally claimed) and doing what he could to have it developed sooner (by being brash).
More-so while the EU have found themselves at the back of the line to get the initial doses Trump was already demanding more sooner from the companies and apparently at least one is changing their production to ramp up output.
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