Posts by Citizen401

Simply viewing Apple kit provokes religious euphoria

Mathematical axioms

You do know what an axiom is, right?

If you want to really give me data to prove that the mathematical axioms aren't axioms, then you're not going about it the right way. :)

Naturalism

"creationism is the belief that we and the world (and by extension, the universe) around us were created as we are now in all our current complexity and contradictory absurdity deliberately and, from the point of view of scientific timescales, fairly recently."

You're refering to young earth creationism, as opposed to the more broadly inclusive definition I've proposed. Though it seems you've approached this exchange of ideas with your own narrow preconceptions, and reacted in a coping manner characteristic of those who cannot argue on intrinsic merit, let me explain carefully how the rest of your argument is incorrect.

"the scientific determination that all things have developed over time according to natural forces."

This is the metaphysical doctrine of naturalism, ie. the absence of belief in metaphysical causation. Despite your claims, naturalism is unfalsifiable and it is certainly not derived from scientific "determination". There are also numerous formal logical problems associated with such an ontologic belief. If you'd like to demonstrate otherwise, you can provide an empirical argument that proves it to be correct. Indeed, if you can, it would make you better than any other secular philosopher of science that has ever existed.

Any philosophical position regarding the metaphysical, whether it is a belief or an absence of belief (as in naturalism) can only exist as a presupposition before perception. This means that an observer must either commit to a belief or a disbelief in metaphysical causation before one experiences the real world, and that belief then determines experience accordingly. It also means an empirically neutral position in metaphysical causation (ie. "I'll believe it when I have evidence") is not possible.

To demonstrate this idea further: One analogy to naturalism would be with the philosophy of direct realism, which asserts that one's senses are accurate, comprehensive and exclusive in rendering our experience of the real world. Naturalism, is in essence, a directly realistic assertion that the physical modalities of phenomenal experience and measurement are accurate, comprehensive and exclusive in rendering the real world, and that there is nothing else (eg. a metaphysical reality) besides this experience. In either case, it is clear that such beliefs can only exist as presuppositions before experience.

Meaningful utility and validity

"a couple of hundred years of the application of mathematics and logic and science and engineering that may or may not reflect the real world but seems to have quite tangible results."

This is ostensibly a valid point, and don't get me wrong here because I am not in any way undermining the validity of logic and mathematics. As you'll note earlier, I stated that the dyad of empiricism/rationalism at the core of the scientific method is not undermined, but reassured, by belief in a first existential cause.

One has to be careful though in validating precepts (such as the logical axioms) on the basis of their perceivable utility, because in the history of science, perceived utility has very rarely correlated with broader validity. For example, proponents of a flat earth theory derived considerable utility from this idea in the form of navigation, military coordination, construction and resource allocation. Admittedly, flat earth theory is falsifiable, and logic is not, but the epistemological restrictions I've described are valid in either case. This pertains to the idea of perceived utility and perceived scientific progress being direct indices of empirical feedback.

On the converse, consider, hypothetically, that besides logic and mathematics, there were alternative modes and precepts of perception and critical thinking which allowed far broader appreciation and understanding of natural laws and processes.

Creationism and science

I recall that it was a certain eminent creationist by the name of Isaac Newton who formulated the systematic basis of knowledge that allowed us to understand the movement of celestial bodies.

Creationism is the belief in a primary ontologic cause to all existence, and does not abrogate the empirical or rational methodologies which underlie the scientific process. The secular counterpart to creationism is not science, it is the principle of naturalism, a belief which is as unfalsifiable and non-empirical as creationism itself. The claim that creationism is at odds with science stems from the critical misunderstanding that scientific methodology is only valid under a naturalistic premise.

Whereas in the past, science was upheld by individuals who maintained a primary theistic belief, scientific progress is now maintained by those who operate under a doctrinal assumption in naturalism; many of whom are not aware that it is an axiomatic or faith-based assumption akin to any religious system. There is no more rational basis by which to exclude a theistic premise in science than there is to exclude the naturalistic position, as both are unfalsifiable foundational beliefs, and the essentials of scientific methodology do not differ under either premise.

To put this into context, most contemporary scientific research is observation-based study that, at an essential level, has no requirement for naturalistic assumptions. The majority of the evidence-based findings in peer reviewed journals are compatible with both theistic and atheistic precepts. The discrepancies arise when scientific methodology attempts to address issues pertaining to the study of origins, at which level differences between the standards of evidence maintained by theism and atheism become pronounced enough to provoke a conflict of religious opinions.

Axioms and foundational beliefs

"By this commonality of perception, which must by definition represent the real world since the phenomenon will have the same predictable effect upon anyone influenced by it"

There are a number of problems with assuming that a commonality of perception is reflective of broader validity. At the level of basal sensory integration (ie. lower perception) this may hold some truth, if one excludes pathologically altered mental states. However, interpretive processes in higher perception are subject to numerous idiosyncratic axiomatic assumptions (ie. individual systems of "world view" beliefs which by virtue of their relationship to perception are unprovable/unfalsifiable and can only exist as faith-based assumptions.)

Among such axiomatic assumptions are the neurobiological precepts (logic, geometry and mathematics as mentioned before), the metaphysical doctrines (naturalism, atheism, theism, uniformitarianism), and the axioms of perception (the philosophies of direct realism, indirect realism and representationalism.)

Regardless of whether you are a naturalistic/atheistic empiricist, or a creationist with belief in a first ontologic cause for all existence, you require faith-based assumptions in order to be capable of thought. There must be a system of unprovable/unfalsifiable first principles to perception itself, because without this, perception would simply be impossible.

These are fairly run-of-the-mill epistemological problems which can be traced back hundreds of years, in the philosophies such as foundationalism and the Munchausen trilemma.

Neurobiology, creationism and naturalism

"So, ahem, God doctored it's [sic] own existence ? (if you follow the circular logic of creationists)."

Though I don't wish to start a creationist/atheist flame war, this does bring up an interesting issue:

An atheist/naturalist can only assume on a basis of faith that logic and mathematics (both neurobiologically determined precepts) are representative of the real world. Logic cannot be proven empirically, because it is primary to perception and therefore determines the very standards of evidence. Using derivative evidence to prove logic is a formal logical fallacy by circular reasoning. Logic cannot be proven using rational arguments as that would be a tautology (ie. using logic to prove logic). Moreover, the perceived meaningful utility of logic is determined by evidentiary feedback, and risks circularity if it is used in support of logic.

For a creationist who believes that the brain was designed for the purpose of understanding ontologic problems, it's a much easier proposition to assert that neurobiological processes are reflective of the real world. Though this argument regresses to the foundational belief that a primary metaphysical cause had designed the brain, it remains a formally valid logical argument, and much more elegant in line with the Occam's razor tradition.

I'm sure it's ironic from your point of view that it is actually the atheistic position that is prone to circularity when it comes to the epistemology of neurobiological precepts.