Re: Re: He we go again ...
"....Tornado - decent ground attack, especially low level. Absolutely awful fighter...." The ADV variant was designed as a long-range interceptor, not a pure dogfighter. In apprasing the F/A-18, the RAF confirmed it did not meet their equirements met by the ADV. However, the Tornado F3 also had quite good combat capability through excellent speed, especially at low level (faster than the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18), combat persistance (lots of missiles - more than the F/A-18 or F-16, both BVR and SRAAM, and a gun), and reasonable electronics. Of all the US jets of its day, only the much pricier F-14 came even close to meeting the RAF requirement met by the Torando ADV.
"....SEPECAT Jaguar - decent small ground attack...." Actually, at the design stage the Fwench wanted to make it smaller and less capable to prevent it stealling sales from the Mirage, but the Brits perservered in making it larger and more powerful. The result was the Jaguar actually beat the Mirage III/5 in fighter competitions such as that in Oman, and the Viggen and Mirage F1 in the case of India. Whilst the RAF versions were always ground-attack only, the developed versions, as used by India, are very capable multi-role fighters, being tasked with anti-shipping strike and deep-penetration interdiction. Indeed, despite having Mirage 2000s and various Russian alternatives, the Indians are currently extending the lifetime of their Jags with engine and avioincs updates.
"....BAe Hawk - great trainer. Did move it into reasonable ground attack for small/poor nations..." The Hawk 200 series offers developed F-16 avionics and multi-mode radar (and therefore BVR missile capability) in a supersonic platform. Personally, I'd rather see the RAF buy a mix of Hawk 200s and Typhoons than F-35s, it would seem to be a lot cheaper option and just as suited to UN "peacekeeping" actions.
"....Lightning - you have to be joking..." Oh dear, the limits of your knowledge are showing again. ".....a good fighter let done by dodgy missiles...." The Red Top had all-aspect engagement capabilities against supersonic targets years before the Sidewinder, a superior performance, and a larger warhead. A SARH version ("Blue Dolphin") was proposed and would have been a match for the American Sparrow, but the Sparrow was already working with the Phantom. So the Brits just made a better Sparrow called Skyflash for the Tornado. "....It could carry next to nothing..." The Saudi F53 version could carry up to 6000Lb of ordinance, including 1000Lb bombs and rocket pods, which is a long way from nothing, and more than the F-15Cs that replaced it in the Saudi service (they were fighters only, the Saudis didn't get bombs on their F-15s until they bought F-15S models in the late 90s). When the RSAF got Tornados they set themselves a target of being able to match the F53 in ground attack exercises as their acceptance criteria, such was the popularity of the Lightning amongst Saudi pilots.
"....Typhoon - good fighter. Ground attack....lets wait and see..." Why? Job already done in Libya, in a combat environment. Don't tell me, you now want to move the goalposts and insist it has to see X number of wars before you concede you're wrong.
".....In all these, you can say it has the capability, but making it practical and usable is a whole different kettle of fish....." Well, the Tornado is proven in combat, and so now is the Typhoon. Case closed.
"....Low level attack is pretty much a relic in most wars these days...." Yes, tell that to the Israelis. Indeed, the Yanks have been pushing that bilge since before the Vietnam war, where Aussie Canberra B2s managed to operate just fine in low-level bombing (using visual sights!) in an environment where Phantoms, Thunderchiefs and Skyhawks were being shot down by AAA whilst employing computerised dive-bombing tactics. The drive to laser-designated bombs was a result of the losses by the Yanks in their use of dive-bombing.
"....Using a F-16 for strafing is an example of gross stupidity...." Strafing is a common part of ground-attack, still taught to RAF pilots and used in action (Falklands, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan). The F-16C/D is supposedly a fighter-bomber and ground-attack aircraft, the only problem being it suffers from serious sink when pulling out of attack dives, which is what led to the loss of the F-16 in question.
"......The Sea Vixen v Harrier comparison is a little dubious as the Sea Vixen is from a decade earlier....." Not really. The Sea Vixen was operating on the larger carriers, not the little "through-deck cruisers" the Sea Harriers operated from, making the Sea Harrier record all the more remarkable. You're also forgetting that the USN operates much larger carriers than even the ones the Sea Vixens were operating from, and hence the navalised F-35s are designed for those larger carriers, not the smaller QE class ones the RN will get. The Harrier pilots I've spoken to have said they see vertical landing as better because "you stop, then you land, whereas with a normal carrier jet you land and hope you stop!" That hasn't changed from the days the Sea Vixens were operating. If you like, we can compare the number of RN Sea Harier
landing/takeoff accidents (zero) with more recent USN F-14s activity (two lost in 2002 alone).
"....but you have to compare the performance differential when up there as well...." OK, lets compare. The VTOL RN Sea Harriers managed a score of 22-0 against the Argentinians, including much faster and supposedly superior Mirage IIIs with BVR capability. The F/A-18 only managed 2-0 against inferior Iraqi MiG-21s in air comabts in Iraq in 1991. BAe has the clear winner there! And in NATO exercises the ordinary Harrier GR1/3s completely trounced the Phantom, so guess again. Don't forget, our over-cautious politicians often insist on RoE which include visual identification (one reason the Tornado ADV had a long-range TV camera which the Phantom did not), meaning the Phantom loses any BVR advantages even if the Harrier wasn't carrying AMRRAMs (which the Sea Harrier FA2 could). Indeed, when the Marines got the original AV-8A they trained against Phantoms and found the Harrier won most engagements. You're not really helping yourself here.