I heard iphones were hot.. but didn't know that you'ld need a protective sheath.
Paris, coz she takes the rubber out when she brings any oral communication device close to her mouth.
95 posts • joined 18 Nov 2008
> leibniz Computing Centre in Munich.
> NASA also have Altrix systems running Linux with 2K+ Itanium 2 chips in them
Real "scale up" market's acid test is Finance (bank of america), retail(walmart), telco (verizon) and manufacturing (Unilever) segments. Not research or academia.
I doubt if NASA or LRZ even have CIOs... probably it's a professor/scientist making the decision (not a CIO like in walmart's case). But don't get me wrong - I am not criticising Linux's capabilities. All I am saying is that "real datacenters" take time before adapting a new technology. For NASA the user is more educated and hands on. They also have a bigger risk appetite than the real world (both due to self confidence and lack of business pressure). For the real world CIOs - NASA, universities, PARC, CERN - it all sounds like "lab experiment" to their ears. (not yours, I understand that part).
And yes, overtime these instances will prove Linux's ability as a single instance champion. That's when HPs and DELLs of the world will start pushing big iron linux as a readily available solution. It will take a good amount of time before we see Linux kicking out Solaris, HP-UX and AIX from the big iron niche.
Oops I think I got my coat aleady.
"so I'm in the minority, which in a Tandem environment automatically means I must be wrong."
I do think your interpretation is correct after glancing thru the backup sldies.
Paris is icon of the contemporary business thought. Her purpose is to illustrate how tons of hype creates tons of dollars.
This seems to be the first "real" discussion I am having on theregister (I've passively enjoyed many others though). So allow me to continue rambling for one last time.
There really are 2 separate issues being discussed here:
1) Why not Opteron (or Xeon) ?
- That's what I tried to answer last time. The answer is "not now, given the current status".
2) Why Itanium for HP NonStop ?
- That's a question which WAS asked by HP (or maybe Compaq) 6-7 years back. At that time HP/Compaq was willing to bet all it's horses on Itanium. At that time it was imperative to port as many OSes on Itanium - for those who looked at Itanium as a future processor.
- If this question was to be asked in present tense, it's possible that HP's answer may differ. But we are talking of a hypothetical situation now.
2b) If Unisys can move out of Itanium, why not HP ?
- Unisys was never really "into" Itanium, as much as HP. It was riding two boats - Xeon and Itanium - I'm sure an expensive ride - for sometime before they decided to move out completely. At some point they had to choose the one. They made the safer choice - it wasn't very difficult for them to make that choice(Xeon). And it's definitely not a technology based decision, though they'll try to justify it technically to their customers. Whereas, HP was fully into Itanium for all it's bigiron offerings. HP (and IBM) chose x86 for the reborn x86 market. [yup, x86 server market was killed by intel (to push itanium) and resurrected by AMD(to push opteron) - all this happened very quickly].
2b-part2) Why Unisys didn't bet everything on Itanium (unlike HP) in the beginning ?
- Can't say. Maybe they were smarter. Maybe they were risk averse. Maybe the time will tell. (Please note: Unisys is no longer a force in the "big iron" world it used to be.)
Lockstep is called LSU in itanium based NonStop. It is worried about only the reads/writes to memory (ensures they are in sync). See: www.oztug.org/events/2006/AdvancedArchitecture_Massey.pdf
To end, there is one point where I do differ from your viewpoint- Is the Power niche so much bigger than Itanium niche ? According to IDC numbers, Itanium is 66% of Power market as of 2008 (up from 33% in 2007). Smaller, yes. But still the niches aren't that different in size for the business logic to be different for IBM and HP. (PowerPC development has little to do with Power6 development).
I'll get my coat, mine is the one with Paris' pic.
I do not work at nonstop/mainframe (or even Itanium) shops to know what the real reasons are! But here are my guesses (probably incorrect/incomplete) on why IBM/HP are not choosing Opteron(or Xeon) for mainframe/NonStop now:
- IBM/HP have just (just = "in last 5 years") moved their mainframe/NonStop customers from proprietary processors to Power5/Itanium. I am sure this would have required a considerable effort for all ISVs and most customers. And I'm sure both IBM/HP are still spending a few extra bucks to be able to support the remaining proprietary install base along with the new itanium/power installations.
- So moving mainframe/NonStop to Opteron/Xeon would mean - doing the whole exercise again! I am not sure how many ISVs and customers would agree to this. (Imagine a customer from 1970s who agreeed & just demolished the proprietary data center to move to the new machines and payed a multi-million dollar bill. Why would they want to move to Opteron/Xeon in near future? In fact, they would be very, very upset if there is any talk of move away from Itanium/power).
- Supporting 3 processors (instead of currently 2) would again mean some cost to IBM/HP as well as the initial cost of porting. What do they stand to gain at this point ? (One may question that they already sell opteron servers, so where's the extra cost? It's in maintaining multiple versions of the NonStop OS or Z/OS as well as some operational costs at customer sites).
- The mainframe/NonStop machines are multi-million dollar beasts. Saving a few thou on CPUs by moving to opteron is not going to add any significant sweetness to the prices offered.
So there seem to be a few good business reasons which would make it difficult for IBM/HP to consider x86-64 for NonStop/mainframe at this point.
There could be some technical reasons as well :
- This is a very narrow market - A business uses these machines when the continous availability (uptime) is paramount to the business (eg: stock exchange for trading related computations). OTOH, Opteron/Xeon play for the mass market server loads (eg: webservers). Some of the design choices they might have made might not be perfectly in sync with mainframe/NonStop needs, nor would AMD be accomodating to such requests if there was such a dialogue. So while it was easy for itanium designers to consider and implement the RAS features (see: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/95 for points & counterpoints) - It took a while for Xeon to incorporate them (I guess it may still lag behind itanium on some features).
- Are processor level RAS features necessary ? Maybe some of these features cover one in a billion kind of error. But that's the kind of reliability customers in this segment would like to have. It's like home insurance, if your entire wealth+source of income is your home, you might buy it? (say you are a ho "working from home").
- I don't know for sure, but I thought NonStop still uses Lockstep on itanium platforms (that's why they have two physical CPUs). However lockstep doesn't sound like a technology that can't be implemented on Xeon/Opteron - the primary mechanisms of the Lockstep should sit outside the processor and it shouldn't matter whether it's x86 or itanium. I could be totally wrong here - so do your own research before making any proposals to your boss :) .
- Perfomancewise, Opteron and Xeon's latest editions would have to prove that they are siginificantly (say multifold) better than the latest itanium/power before HP/IBM consider x86 for this market. This would happen only if intel/IBM pull the plug on R&D for itanium/power - which would take sometime.
So all things point to a minimum of 5 (more likely 10 or even 15) years before we see any serious talks of NonStop/mainframe on x86 (if at all). HP and IBM do not do their business to prove/disprove a technical point. They make they investments when they see some potential return. At this point (May 2009) I don't see any additional returns by moving HP NonStop or IBM mainframes to Opteron.
PS: People who want to read an informative account of Itanium saga may try this :
(No, I am not BIll Todd under a pseudonym).
 netbooks, cellphones, some gaming consoles and the embedded world. Atoms, ARM, some non-power6-type-PowerPC belongs here. The design and the designers for this team live in a different world from the "big iron" world. The "big iron" world may get wiped off without impacting this market and vice versa.
 The adjacent to the embedded market is the PC & the laptop market market. Again, a very specialized set of designers sit here churning out core2 duos. And again, the entire "big iron" market may get wiped off without impacting this segment that much. Currently, this market is in a strong tussle with the embedded market.. (case in point: netbooks eating into the laptop space).
 commodity server market. This is x86 again. Opterons and Xeons. No core2, ARM, or ATOMs exist here beyond some experimental machines. If this market was wiped off, it would be replaced by the big iron and not the processors from the PC/laptop world (however, the opposite is more likely). Nehalem from this segment is pushing the boundaries of the next segment. Supercomputers is a market this segment has already snatched from the "big iron" world. This segment is almost equally divided in windows servers and linux severs running on Xeon/Opteron (x86-64). SPARC has always overlapped between this segment and the next (and hence Sun is paying the price now. Or rather, it's Oracle who would be making any "pay"ments.). Cisco is trying to enter this market segment. Most (not all) blades belong here.
. Finally, True "Big Iron" segment. Erstwhile Alpha, MIPs and currently SPARC, Power6, itanium play here. This is the battleground for big bad RISCs. The problem is RISCs are selling less and less every year. So yes, this is a slowly declining market segment (shrunk rapidly this year coz of recession; but it may recover some of the lost ground in coming months) . This market is under severe threat from the previous segment (xeon+linux type machines). The x86 world is eating into it slowly but steadily. The main players (ignoring SPARC for now) are Itanium and Power. Both run several OSes - including mainframes and NonStop from HP. The R&D dollars needed to keep these beasts alive are available for now. So the reports of itanium/SPARC/power demise are greatly exaggerated. Yes, in a slightly distant future probably only one of them would survive - but get this - being the last RISC processor standing is not necessarily a good thing for the parent company- coz while you were focused on winning this battle (for crumbs by the time it's over) your competitor wiped off the x86 (server) market.
Sorry about the long post; but I saw just too many out of place comments. Don't blame them; the article itself was talking about gaming consoles in an itanium article. In the end some more points that don't get covered in above explicitly:
- Even if PowerPC running gaming consoles and other embedded stuff wipes out the embedded market - it would do no good to power6 health- which depends on Unix/mainframes business only.
- Mainframes running multiple Linux images doesn't make it "green" - the underlying processor is a power hungry Power6, regardless of what IBM sponsored results tell you. The perf/watt of the processor matters - not how many images of OS it runs. (I do concede that current x86's perf/watt is not any better than Power6 but there are greener options than either to run virtual linux images).
- Mainframes (and nonstop) sub-market is one which linux/x86 can't eat. The machines are based on a different design paradigm and the fault tolerance, High Availability, disaster recovery offered by these systems can't be achieved in a meaningful way (ie in datacenters, not labs) by linux/windows/Unix. So even if power and itanium evolution stops; these baddies will continue to sell for another 50 years.
- While Linux on itanium has scaled to a single image 512 processors in a SGI lab; it'll be a long, long while(even a decade) before customers start using linux on x86 beyond 4/8 processors. CIOs like to stay one step behind. And they matter, not a lab result.
Paris, coz her love doesn't sink; you do.
... how come we always find a bunch of jokers with pretty one sided opinions ?
Ah... it must be me; probably while spending my time between job, technology and really insignificant social life; I missed understanding this issue while my commentard peers were mastering the subtleties of the orient and the multi-decade "war" and issues of the Tamil diaspora. (Apparently nowadays you can do all this over the internet- no need to actually make a field trip).
Paris, coz she could debase a site, if not deface it.
There is something called being pissed withone who is over-popular.
Then there is something called acknowledging other's right to have an opinion.
When you say : "Borat and all of Sacha Baron Cohen characters, are profoundly unfunny." You seem to project this as an abolute truth like it's -21degrees in Chelsea today. I may or maynot find him funny. But I know people who do. And so I don't think I can say that Borat etc are not funny. One guy tells a joke 10 guys laugh - who am I to say that he is not funny ?
Paris, coz she is ticklish..
Power 5/6 are different processors targeted at servers (running AIX, z/os and other boring stuff).
Gaming processors and apple processor are cousins. Originally from the same family; but have forked off and have totally different strengths (and cost less).
It's like comparing Core2 with Nehalem/Opteron - same family but no connection. Once is used in corporate datacenters and the other in homes or desktops.
If you are from the IT industry you'ld know that IBM has slowly divorced itself from the consumer/home world and caters - in hardware/software/services - only to big corporates. (Yeah there might be some odd execptions; but 99.99% of the revenue comes from big corporates).
Apple, nintendo are direct opposites. They hardly cater to the "datacenters". They targe home environment. The processors they use are chearper, less power hungry but also less powerful copmared to power hungry, cache loaded, cash-demanding power6.
Paris, coz she left the corporate world to help the average citizen.
This research is important for big corporations and govt. Mainly for formulating policies. eg: A govt. with severe shortage on core computer skills may ask universities to increase Computer Engineering seats, or, an undersupply of some emerging tech skills may change some immigration policy.
Companies benefit from this information by being picky or slutty while recruiting a particular skill. Or, decide on how much to spend on various corporate training programs.
Individuals can decide whether to hang on to their skills (java) or learn new ones (sage).
So I wouldn't call this a waste of money.
Paris, coz she keeps here skills updated by practising regularly.
Oracle knows how to run and manage software business. Very soon the Sunacle JVM would be THE JVM (unless some corporate action blocks the evolution).
I am not so sure about the hardware business. Sure Solaris will stay.. but on what platform ?
SPARC may see a pre-mortem burial but - as everyone seems to note - that's better than the entire Sun getting buried.
Interesting to see how Oracle to manage it's partners ? [other hardware vendors]. The business on Sun platforms is less than half for Oracle's total revenue. Oracle can't afford to antagonize it's old partners (including 3rd leg in the affair: IBM).
Sun's marketshare ? It will dwindle.. there is some uncertainity even now. And some CIOs already made up their mind about moving ON when the saga was going on. Things would have worked out better if IBM was never in the picture. Going forward Sunacle needs to up it's publicity machinery.. announce measures like roadmaps of sun's products to restore customer faith.
Getting rid of Sun middle management - however would be the hardest thing for Oracle. Divide and rule should be the name of the game. Break Sun into smaller unit which should re-attach to different Oracle Units. Eg: Solaris should move under the database group. Mysql, OTOH, should stay away from database else some sql gpl'd code may end up contaminating the whole oracle product lines.
SPARC product line should move into some division where they slowly kill old products. Sell all the IP (and some teams) to fujitsu. In future, let fujitsu design and manufacture the SPARC/ROCK line. License some processor technology to Intel and get rebate on x86 in future.
What else ? Keep the Sun brandname alive - mainly to push servers.
Paris, coz if she swallows something it's for good.
The main objective of the Paris religion is to envision the journey of self discovery through the spiritual ravines of the mystical mountains of Ms. Paris's anatomical contours to lighten up the introspection process. Knowledge of the knowledge and knowledge of the benign nature of the material possession in this surreal world to enhance one's worldly riches to balance peace within the self to wallow into the non-cosmic nirvana of the desires is the ultimate goal.
5 Doctrines of the Paris Religion:
* All disciples must use the Paris icon on el reg while making a post.
* In depth knowledge about Ms. Paris is not needed, just using her as an inspiration is enough.
* Forgive the fools who fail to seek enlightenment from Ms. Paris's limelightenment.
* If you love your neighbor, post the tape only after mutual consent.
* If you shop a fendi, wave it only enough to get the sufficient attention but not look enamored by your possession.
Koan for the new beginer:
If you are in Paris, would you practice your French ?
I heard some talk (as a kid) that some carry-ons were showed in schools as part of the sex-ed curriculum.
It's possible that we were just trying to justify all the sinful pleasure to ourselves.. but then maybe..... Does anyone here know ?
PH, coz she did carry on despite the bad lighting.
First - consider why SMBs use cloud : to save on initial cost and stay away from day to day IT operations.
Now think what large corporations are: typically they have many independent business units housed inside one big umbrella. They do share some stuff: like IT. So presumably that's one advantage that large corps don't have - as they anyway can't get rid of day to day IT operations.
Now consider a small unit within a large corporation - it's toying with a completely new idea but it won't get the funds it needs. What can it do to present a reduced cost proposal ? The manager of that proposal would use cloud instead.
And don't worry about integration with the rest of the system. In a large corp it's impossible for the left hand to know what right hand is doing anyway.
Paris, coz she might need both hands with some of us.
In US/europe piracy of movies / software makes some dent in the topline of these companies. Yes.
But the real clincher is how Hollywood and Microsoft have captured market in emerging markets without spending a penny [on marketing and distribution]. If not for pirated copies of windows; the Asia, Africa and South America would have long migrated to Linux. Also, they would have no idea who Brangelina are or why wolverine needs to be nicked.
Today Hollywood is securing a global future thanks to blatant piracy in last 15 years. Without piracy the reach of Hollywood would have been restricted to a westernized population residing big cities of the 3rd world.
So all the hoopla is to cut losses in US/EU by creating noise/guilt/fear- without letting it affect the free ride in rest of the world.
Paris, coz she likes a pirate's hardware.
> ... outed yourself as a chimp. In which case I think I'll skip, thanks.
make sure you do not pass a chimp for a gorilla. Chimps are most well endowed amongst the great apes (I am sure you've given up on humans by now).
btw, I've reasons to believe Ms.Bee prefers Bacon sandwiches.
Paris, coz she might eat a chimp.
Okay sorry. I'm mixing up 2 different stories here.
Even if I wanted to root for Animal rights, Peta makes it so hard for me to not want to spite them.
(ie I want to spite Peta, for grammatically challenged).
Besides I think world has palce for only one self righteous group at a time. So it's tree huggers for now. Peta can just shove it up their furry ass.
Paris, coz she would go clubbing with Seal.
Pleasure is all mine.
> You sir, have bought a little ray of hope back into my life... just nobody tell the wife! ;)
Let me warn you, sir: SB is no "little" ray, if you get my drift. You may live a tad longer with old ball and chain, me thinks.
Paris. coz she smokes. Bananas.
.. there is no one reason for the unavoidable demise of the ubiquitous, cultural icon blighty pub. There are many:
- The too rich to care owners. If they ate and had beer at their own pubs once a week, the quality of the shite they serve would've been mucho bettero.
- The taxes.. yeah, they count. Instead of 3ice a week people are going 2ice a week.
- add recession and now some people are going only 1ce a week. That bad, yeah.
- smoking ban. Due to smoking; there were hardly any non-smokers in pubs earlier. With the smoking ban even the smokers have left. non-smokers re not coming back(as you can see from some comments here). Smokers, even if they come, they don't stay long - they need a cigarette break.
- "Having Fun" is bad now. Suddely with likes of Jaqui in charge, "having fun" is considered a sin. So the overall anger puts a dampner on any fun thing you do. The return on the money is not the same.
- Good british music. UK has not produced a great band in ages now. That would help too.
Will things improve with economy ?
- I really, really doubt it. This is going to be one historic event where all the pubs will ultimately get replaced by coffee joints or even more costlier lounge bars.
- Only pubs, which maintain a good quality now - have any long term future. That would be just a handful. Probably in 2 digits in entire london and 3 digits in entire blighty.
Some suggestions to pub owners/management:
- lobby for reduced taxes and higher supermarket taxes.
- improve quality of ale and snacks. Reduce items on menu; sell only what sells most - but make it fresh/good.
- re-introduce quizzes, live music, dance floor (some open area for younsters to shake hip).
- improt some new (german?) beers which are not available in supermarket easily.
Yeah, life sucks. Paris, coz she is good at it.
One that doesn't rip or chew the parts off due to a "bug".
Robo-boffins ? Coz boffins know that post-quantum-mechanics-hoopla-die-down, their chances of getting laid are significantly above zero only in a parallel universe.. so the want to reproduce intellectually now. lessee.
I think the main course here is the double standards. Like a pri*st doing it with a n*n after a sermon. And to top it, it was done with tax payer's money! That's really the spicey side-dish; not the main course in this article though.
So the spice that we get from the collectively pooled in £10 is really worth it. ;)
Paris, coz it possible that one of the flicks features our collective favorite pr0n*.
A cousin of mine has worked in Avionics s/w for 10+years. (as a developer; not a pilot).
Last I talked to him about Linux; he had no clue what GNU/GPL was. He had heard of linux and firefox though. For him open just means being able to communicate using a standard interface. I agree it might be using a keyhole view for the entire avionics s/w here; but I doubt if anyone here believes that planes fly using linux & OSS.
But by getting into nitty gritty of avionics, you are missing the point:
- (as most of us are aware that) the computers are everywhere: cellphones, telephony backend, cars, planes, medical systems, banks and we use these computers directly or indirectly. Sometimes you have a choice of running FSF approved OSS -eg: your desktop or cellphone. But if we are preaching others that they restrict their lives by not using non-FSF approved s/w; we ourselves must goto stone-age first.
Apologies to RMS. I am too small a fish to talk without respect when referring to a great revolutionary and I am genuinely sorry for my comments which were not in best taste (given the stature of the person involved). I maintain that I no longer agree with RMS' philosophy or doctrine. I believe in business of technology. I believe it must be fair and square. There was a hoarding of information at one point which thanks to GNU has changed. But there were hobbyists passing shareware all along and this shift in power would have happened with or without GNU. Today we risk going overboard. But this is just my opinion and with my admittance I am just a small fry in a big pond. RMS deserves being addressed in more respectful tone than I used and I am sorry for that.
> which measures half a megabyte, in a compacted form that we could call
> Obfuscript because it has no comments and hardly any whitespace, and the
> method names are one letter long"
The morons at GNU are so up in their ass that they don't realize that this is not an evil corportation's obfuscode. It's merely a way to send compact data to the client.
But dolts @ GNU are once bitten twice shy. There was a time when copr's used to take GNU code.. use a lot of C preprocessor macros and put the p-preprocessored code on the web. Yes, that was obfuscode which agreed with GPL words but belied the spirit. JS by google is NOT.
Paris, coz she is compact.
Aptly named Mr.Paine,
Please read, understand and then comment.
(Just to break it down for you:
- What AC implies is "AC's way is (probably) Right but others can be right at the same time".
However Mr.Stallman thinks his way is the right way and that is the only way - everyone else is wrong.
Something like a religion which doesn't accept doctrines of other religions. ).
Paris, coz she is the only way.
What would be your reasons for Linus spending eternity in hell ?
Stallman, yeah, the guys is still living in 70s when his ego was hurt by someone who didn't allow him access to sources. very preachy and self righteous. Maybe he had a point at some point but the world has moved on since.
Gates, yes, coz one doesn't want to sound like an M$ lover.
Why Linus ? He is just using OpenSource as a platform to deliver his creation. (He was in college then so making money off it wasnt improtant. Now it's too late, even he wants to). But except for being anal about some technical stuff; Linus comes across as very pragmatic about GPL, opensource and what others should do/no do.
(FWIW, I'm neither a Linux user nor an M$ advocate).
Paris, coz she'd make hell hotter.
Deadly combination, eh ?
Paris, coz she and I make a deadly combination too
- "her brains and my money".. err. no "her money and my looks".. sorry got that wrong too.
- One last time: "her looks, my brains (which by now you might've guessed are no better than her brains)".
difficult to compare IBM with acer. Or, microsoft with lenovo. Or should I think of HP as a consumer goods vendor or datacenter vendor ?
You should have some categories:
- retail h/w
- retail s/w
- corporate h/w
- corporate s/w
- corporate services.
Paris, I would rate her hot, Naaat.
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