* Posts by Fred Goldstein

286 publicly visible posts • joined 17 Apr 2007

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Windows Subsystem for Linux now packaged as a Microsoft Store app

Fred Goldstein

Re: This is good IMHO

Yes, it would be nice. But I'm using Windows 10 Pro (I do not trust Windows 11 at all; they alternate between usable and junk releases, and 11 is like 8 and Vista, likely junk) and the Store does not offer WSL2 to me. It only offers command-line mode WSL. So either the article is premature or wrong.

Twitter is suffering from mad bro disease. Open thinking can build it back better

Fred Goldstein

Re: Vote A.O.!!!

I thought Lewis Page wasn't writing here any more.

Your next PC should be a desktop – maybe even this Chinese mini machine

Fred Goldstein

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

I'm pretty sure he meant DVI. I have a 2002-ish Dell monitor that worked great on my 2013-ish machine, with a DVI to HDMI adapter. But when I got a shiny new Windows 10 machine -- a lovely Lenovo SFF box -- it would not work reliably with the adapter, so I had to get a modern monitor. Which is much nicer anyway, and $150 buys a lot more monitor now than $300 did 20 years ago.

Intel sued over historic DEC chip site's future

Fred Goldstein

The site is over 2 miles from the highway (I-495). DEC got the Commonwealth to build an access road (85C) leading from the highway to near the site. Since then the condos have gone up on either side of the property. So a warehouse/logistics operation would be sending a lot of traffic down the road and near the new housing.

DEC spent a lot of money on "Silicon Mountain". Chip fabs don't come cheap. They built the core of the plant on an isolated slab attached to bedrock far below, so no vibration from the roads or the rest of the building would be felt by the litho gear. Not cheap. But the fab itself, the equipment, only lasts a few years, and the room then needs renovation to get the dust count down to the ultra-pure level needed. Intel obviously decided not to bother. You'd think that with the chip business being pretty good, some fab company might pick up the site. But Amazon and probably XPO (PostDestructor DeJoy's company) are always hungry for places to run trucks to.

My town had a big site come on market recently, right on a major highway exit. Knowing that it was going to be available (a former car dealership), they quickly rezoned to allow industry, offices, labs, etc., but explicitly prohibiting warehousing. A nicer project is planned. Hudson may have left itself open, though. Logistics warehouses are not good neighbors.

Micro molten salt reactor can fit on a truck, power 1k homes. When it's built

Fred Goldstein

Re: I'm not a nuclear physicist

IIRC both toothpaste and LFTRs (thorium cycle) use sodium fluoride. It is not that dangerous by itself. The hard part of the LFTR is that it needs regular decontamination via bubbling in gaseous fluorine. Thus the plant needs a fluorine generator. Not radioactive, but seriously nasty chemically. That is, of course, an engineering problem, and it is still only a recipe for local, short-term problems, not long-term radioactive contamination.

Conventional reactors need constant cooling, even after scram. Hence the concern at Zaporizhzhia, where the orcs are playing with something worse than fire, and have no comprehension of how dangerous it is.

Fred Goldstein

I'm surprised your comment is getting so many negative votes. Current types of uranium-cycle reactor (PWR, BWR, etc.) do appear to be very much *net negative* in how much energy they create vs. how much goes into building them, running them, mining the fuel, refining the fuel, disposing of waste, and post-operation site cleanup. Molten salt designs may have a different equation, though anything with a uranium-based fuel cycle is highly suspect. Thorium avoids that.

Fred Goldstein

I am not sure that the article actually refers to the LFTR thorium-cycle reactor, which I agree is a very promising design. The article actually seems to refer to a uranium-cycle molten-salt reactor. Like the LFTR it apparently doesn't go critical when it gets hot, and the reaction slows when the liquid salt drains, but its fuel cycle is still based on uranium and thus it has a lot of long-lasting isotopes in its waste. Not as much as the 1950s designs we have been using, but much more than an LFTR.

I suppose the advantage of the uranium cycle is that it creates a revenue stream for the uranium mining and refining ($$$) industry, like conventional fuel-rod reactors, while the LFTR burns thorium, which is a waste product of neodymium mining and refining and thus essentially free for the taking. And to the vulture capitalists, free fuel is bad; they are looking for revenue streams to tout to stock speculators, not to save the world.

Fred Goldstein

Right. The SMR has the same problems as other boiling-water uranium-cycle reactors. It's your basic "Atoms for Peace" dual-use 1950s model repackaged as an SUV rather than with tail fins.

Japan taps industry to build safer, more secure nuclear energy future

Fred Goldstein

Re: FINALLY!

Thorium breeders might please green weenies. They can't melt down, make much much less waste, and use a cheap fuel, albeit an expensive seed of U-234.

Scientists, why not simply invent a working fusion plant using $50m from Uncle Sam

Fred Goldstein

Re: Cold Fusion

Many, including here, conclude that cold fusion cannot exist, because hot fusion exists and because Pons and Fleischmann weren't very convincing, and had the wrong credentials anyway. But that doesn't mean that there can't be an avenue of fusion other than what stars do.

The problem with hot fusion reactors is that they've been 20-40 years away for over 40 years, and still are. Even if net-positive fusion is achieved, capturing that energy safely is an extremely non-trivial engineering problem. Among others. I rather think that most fusion research is largely a welfare program for physicists, with an off chance of eventually being productive.

Appeals court already under fire for upholding Texas no-content-moderation law

Fred Goldstein

Re: Here we go...

The case is being argued wrong. This is not about free speech, as users can always go elsewhere or open their own web sites or whatever. It is about a free press. These web sites, including El Reg, are the press. Freedom of speech is the right to say what you want. Freedom of the press includes the right to *not* say what you don't want. Both of these are in the First Amendment and the Court, notoriously trumpy, simply ignored that detail.

Section 230 was passed to override an egregiously wrong court case (Stratton Oakmont) that held Prodigy liable for a user's post claiming that a company was committing fraud. The company sued Prodigy for libel and won, even though it was not Prodigy the company that said it. And the people who won that lawsuit were in fact later convicted of the very crimes that they were accused of and claimed was libel.

The next deep magic Linux program to change the world? Io_uring

Fred Goldstein

Re: What an unfortunate name

That's how I first read it in the headline. I thought it was a tribute.

Of course all of this is done because Unix was originally designed without interprocess communications in mind, so that ended up requiring slow kernel calls, so now various patches are being made to get around that.

Businesses should dump Windows for the Linux desktop

Fred Goldstein

Re: Living in a bubble?

I put in a Withdraw on one, which was edited a whole 16 minutes (too long!) after the first, but for some reason it didn't take.

Fred Goldstein

Re: Living in a bubble?

Access is probably 20 years behind the times; I doubt it does much more now than it did in 2006 when I used it to do a major project that depended on some of its unusual, and powerful, capabilities. But it was hitting its limits then, being a 32-bit program with small (by today's standards) file size limits. On the other hand, Libre Office Base looks like an undergraduate project from 1977, capable of doing the tiny "wine list" demo but not any real work. Never did, and probably never will.

Excel is a special case. The 2010 version was great. Later ones have been unstable; the code base must be a stinking mess. A special place in hell for the fact that it often loses the ability to receive input from the keyboard! (Workaround: Mouse over to a different spreadsheet, type into it, then go back to the one you're working on.) So I often find myself falling back to an old installed version with a warning on to that it is no longer supported, but at least it runs.

Yes, Windows 10 Pro, not Home, and I don't feel too insecure. I just take normal precautions, like not opening spam attachments. The OS has many flaws, but it is designed for people to use, not for programmers to use. And as Three Dead Trolls In A Baggie sang over two decades ago, Every OS Sucks.

Fred Goldstein

Re: Living in a bubble?

Access is probably 20 years behind the times; I doubt it does much more now than it did in 2006 when I used it to do a major project that depended on some of its unusual, and powerful, capabilities. But it was hitting its limits then, being a 32-bit program with small (by today's standards) file size limits. On the other hand, Libre Office Base looks like an undergraduate project from 1977, capable of doing the tiny "wine list" demo but not any real work. Never did, and probably never will.

Excel is a special case. The 2010 version was great. Later ones have been unstable; the code base must be a stinking mess. A special place in hell for the fact that it often loses the ability to receive input from the keyboard! (Workaround: Mouse over to a different spreadsheet, type into it, then go back to the one you're working on.) So I often find myself falling back to an old installed version with a warning on to that it is no longer supported, but at least it runs.

Yes, WIndows 10 Pro, not Home, and I don't feel too insecure. I just take normal precautions, like not opening spam attachments.

Apple network traffic takes mysterious detour through Russia

Fred Goldstein

Re: Yet IPv6 networks were built to rely on and assume both BGP and DNS work perfectly.

That's the problem with TCP/IP in general. It was built for the DoD Internet, ARPANET, PRnet, and later MILNET, without public access. So it has no security; it trusts its users. Not smart these days. BGP is inherently vulnerable. The whole thing needs rethinking.

There is a path to replace TCP in the datacenter

Fred Goldstein

Re: ???

The OSI 7 layer model was a mistake, taken from early Honeywell work and intended as a model for dividing the work among subcommittees in ISO/IEC JTC1. TCP/IP is not even that smart, though; while it left out the mistaken layers 5 and 6 (which were nulled out in the later, little-known "fastbyte" OSI option), it didn't have clean layering at all and made various mistakes about role assignments. Of course that's all they teach in most schools, so it's like studying political science in North Korea with an elective about China.

Fred Goldstein

Re: Multiple stacks

TCP is 48 years old now and long past its sell-by date. IP split from "The TCP" in 1978 and is even more senescent. Moore Law keeps it going. While not widely implemented yet, RINA (Recursive InterNetworking Architecture) makes more sense for the future, as among other things it is more scalable and secure. DECnet was more advanced than TCP/IP but didn't have the ARPANET (free if you could get on it at the time) and Berkeleycode (free as in beer) to make it easy to adopt in spite of its flaws.

W3C overrules objections by Google, Mozilla to decentralized identifier spec

Fred Goldstein

Re: You know something's wrong

That's normal now. IPv4 addresses are too scarce, and IPv6 is such a badly-written fustercluck that it doesn't make matters any better, just more filling and less secure. So residential clients get NAT addresses and work around their disadvantages, which most people don't notice. And residential ISP agreements usually discourage setting up servers anyway; that's what cloud services are for.

Wi-Fi hotspots and Windows on Arm broken by Microsoft's latest patches

Fred Goldstein

Works best if you disable auto update

I use Windows as it supports the applications I need, and as a desktop OS it is reasonably well behaved most of the time. I am not a coder so all of the coder-friendly spooge in Linux frankly doesn't interest me, and I'm not running a server where Linux and other OSs are better behaved. Lots of people are like me in that regard.

The way I deal with this is to completely disable automatic updates (Windows 10 Pro) using group policy editor. Then after reading about what does and doesn't break, every few months I let it catch up with an update that has been out for at least a couple of weeks. They apparently laid off their QA team a couple of years go and are using auto-update as a cheap form of QC, so delaying updates is almost necessary for keeping a stable system. I also still have a Windows 7 machine for personal use and its lack of updates usually keeps it stable. Nobody has hacked it behind my firewall and I am pretty careful about what I install on it or what mail attachments I open (not usually any on that machine).

It sure would be nice if the Windows 10/11 update function worked like Windows 7's, where you could always select which ones you wanted to install and which ones you wanted to hide, and it was not trying to auto-install it and crash the work you left running overnight in the process.

When management went nuclear on an innocent software engineer

Fred Goldstein

Re: Next time

Well, certainly not over inferior DG equipment! DEC equipment was more robust. (only half ;-) here)

Also, temperature-chamber tests imply a lot of heat was present. A Rainbow was an 8086 machine and didn't generate much heat. And the cardboard might have been loose enough to allow for some venting anyway.

Don't hate on cryptomining, hate the power stations, say Bitcoin super-fans

Fred Goldstein

Re: Bitcoin miners have no emissions whatsoever

And that's the key point -- the algorithm adjusts to keep power usage high! The value of bitcoin (or other PoW) is mostly in the value of the energy wasted to create it. That is the fundamental idea behind the value of mined metals too.

Any watts used to create PoW coins, even if "clean and green", could have been diverted into the grid to displace other carbon-burning power. Electricity is fungible; all waste is waste. Coin mining should be a felony.

The wild world of non-C operating systems

Fred Goldstein

Re: Multics & PL/I

Remember the earlier DEC OSs from the 36-bit world. TOPS-20 was based on BBN's TENEX, which was of course written in BCPL. That was a nice OS, user friendly and powerful.

5G frequencies won't interfere with airliners here, UK and EU aviation regulators say

Fred Goldstein

Re: Surely this is a simple approvals issue???

Certification requirements for radalts is too lax -- they date back to 1983, and allow reception on up to "10%" of its bandwidth, which puts it down to around 3.8 GHz. Only a fraction of them are that sloppy, but who's checking? And replacing an altimeter is a big deal; I've heard that it requires the plane itself to be recertified. This would not be a problem if the US had set the power limit on the 3.7-3.98 GHz band to where the UK, for instance, has it, but they allow more power than the cellcos usually actually use. It is that extra power, not really necessary, that creates the risk to the sloppier radalts. So a lower power limit on cells near an airport approach is a reasonable compromise.

Patching Windows Server without needing to reboot is a handy feature – but it's only available on Azure

Fred Goldstein

Re: Meanwhile Linux users are all like...

Yep, I work in telecom too. Embedded CPUs in switches were almost always redundant, able to switch over without losing a call, and the down side could be updated off line. But then some switch software designs did hot patch all along. I think Ericsson had a stack processor (remember those?) that enabled any part of its code to be updated live. Unix, of course, was not designed for mission-critical real time, and Linux is just a clone of that. Windows NT is based on VMS and that too required some down time, but not much; Microsoft moved too much into the kernel and didn't have the four rings of VMS (KESU). And Microsoft's heritage was MSDOS, where any prolonged uptime was a matter of good fortune, and you were expected to turn it off when you went to bed.

DISH Wireless hooks up with Helium's decentralised 5G network via FreedomFi gear

Fred Goldstein

CBRS rules require the access points (and higher-power client radios) to be entered into a Spectrum Access System (several are on line) by a Certified Professional Installer (CPI). The CPI's personal certificate credential is the key to entering anything into the SAS, which is a prerequisite for the transmitter to turn on. Ordinary folks aren't about to become CPIs, though I suppose a geek could take the online class and take the test (it costs several hundred dollars from Google and others). The Helium/FreedomFi folks seem to be omitting this critical detail. Absent a validated CPI, the radio won't even turn on. (A possible exception exists for indoor radios whose GPS is accurate within 3 meters vertically, which is rare. Outdoor radios need CPI in almost all cases.)

Software Freedom Conservancy sues TV maker Vizio for 'GPL infringement'

Fred Goldstein

Do they know that Vizio touched the kernel, or is it all in userland? I point by analogy to Mikrotik routers. They use RouterOS, Mikrotik's proprietary software. Oh, and it has a Linux kernel, but don't ask for sources... they say they don't do anything that obligates them to publish anything.

Microsoft shows off Office 2021 for consumers ahead of the coming of Windows 11

Fred Goldstein

Re: Standalone versions need an MS Account . . . BUT

Oh, come on. The LibreOffice competitors to Word and Excel are much better than their supposed equivalent to Access... now if you want a real dog, try its Base.

But Office 365 (latest) doesn't always even *work* -- Excel has this nasty habit of losing its relationship with an obscure peripheral called a keyboard. So I do real work in Excel 2010, disregarding the warnings.

IBM's first 7nm Power10 chip arrives in E1080 server system with a wealth of shiny features

Fred Goldstein

Re: What's your definition of "competitive"?

I see POWER as a contemporary mainframe, not at all in the same world as AMD, Intel, or historic SPARC chips. POWER architecture seems to merge main memory with mass storage, throwing lots of that fancy memory around to keep things moving. It is expensive per CPU but has vastly more throughput, not just processing power. POWER 10 makes a Xeon look small, both in price and performance. But if you don't need it, you wouldn't want to bother with it.

Why we abandoned open source: LiveCode CEO on retreat despite successful kickstarter

Fred Goldstein

Re: DarkBasic

Yes, BASIC and its variants don't get the respect they probably deserve. Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code was easy to use for simple programs. In its original Dartmouth DTSS version (which I used back in the 1960s), you could basically treat it as a calculator, noting that pocket calculators didn't exist yet. It also had decent string functions. The use of line numbers for structure didn't scale well, of course, and EDIT RESEQUENCE was often necessary. But later versions fixed that.

Hard-core programmers prefer C-type languages, which get closer to the hardware, but most people would probably get more done with a higher level of abstraction.

Fred Goldstein

We're used to if/then constructs if we have ever programmed in the usual languages. But you may have a point about how people understand things. I was working on a protocol specification recently and put in an if *foo* then *do this* description. Government reviewers (important role in this case) rewrote it to *do this* if *foo*. They thought it was clearer that way, it was semantically equivalent, and nobody objected. So LiveCode may have a point.

Thunderbird 91 lands: Now native on Apple Silicon, swaps 'master' for 'primary' password, and more

Fred Goldstein

I'm still using version 68, since 78 broke a lot of important add-ons. I'd pay extra if they'd add the "personalities" feature of old Eudora; v68 supports the Folder Account add-on which matches the from address to the folder your cursor has selected, but it really is best to match the message itself. It looked to me like the t'bird developers were more content with playing around with new tools than with maintaining capabilities.

$600m in cryptocurrencies swiped from Poly Network

Fred Goldstein

And steal more than a billion from the Feds and you can maybe pay a token fine and get elected to the Senate. Ask Rick Scott. (Okay, it's Florida. Of course.)

Wireless powersats promise clean, permanent, abundant energy. Sound familiar?

Fred Goldstein

Re: Casual reference to 5G sceptics as 'wingnuts': author already is on wrong side of history

No, 5G isn't about THz. Such frequencies don't go far and don't penetrate anything. 5G is simply a modification of 4G LTE to enable wider speed and frequency ranges. In the US, T-Mobile calls its 600 MHz network 5G, though it works almost exactly like a 4G network (the software module APIs in the Core are partitioned differently). The highest frequencies used are around 28 GHz, for some Verizon and AT&T sites, but those too are extremely range-limited, though they're fast if you're within about 100m or so and have visual line of sight. Basically optimized for football stadiums.

All of the bullhockey about 5G radiation harm ignore details like radiation level. The sun shines RF on us too.

Tech spec experts seek allies to tear down ISO standards paywall

Fred Goldstein

OSI was not meant to be descriptive of other people's work, like TCP/IP, it was meant to be a common network protocol suite that all vendors could use. The Reference Model was simply a way to organize the subcommittees, and got misunderstood to be much more than that. And its errors (the existence of layers 5 and 6 outside of the application layer where the functions ended up in practice) are taken as gospel that you're supposed to accept, because they must have been smarter than you (they weren't).

But in that mess came IS 8648, Internal Organization of the Network Layer, which explains the difference between networks and internetworks, and is really useful educational material. But it's very hard to find, paywalled and downright obscure as a result. That's the kind of thing that gets lost when paywalls go up.

Open-source dev and critic of Beijing claims Audacity owner Muse threatened him with deportation to China in row over copyright

Fred Goldstein

Re: Muse Group hit the headlines in May

It's a Russian company. They're merely acting in a manner consummate with their dictator's own style.

Age discrimination case against IBM leaks emails, docs via bad redaction

Fred Goldstein

Re: What a bunch of scumbags

A decade ago, an attorney I knew was dealing with one of those ARRA stimulus grants, which his clients believed was being misspent. NTIA, the overseeing agency, seemed okay with the diversion of funds from where it was promised to where it would compete with his clients. And the funded agency was using some IBM donations-in-kind, not cash, as their 20% match. Some FOIA requests got heavily redacted documents from NTIA. And they were redacted by putting a black box over the text that was still there, easily accessible with a PDF editor, even OpenOffice. You'd think IBM, deep in that mess, would have learned by now.

Of all the analytics firms in the world, why is Palantir getting its claws into UK health data?

Fred Goldstein

Whether or not Palantir makes money, or how, is an interesting question, given their secrecy, and their main role as an outsourced spy agency of the US government. But Alex Karp made the news for getting the largest compensation of anyone in the US last year, making $1.1 BILLION US dollars. That probably warms the hearts of Tories, who like the rich to get richer and recognize CEOs as the American version of royalty.

Mark it in your diaries: 14 October 2025 is the end of Windows 10

Fred Goldstein

Re: Two possibilities

VMS was a more advanced OS than Unix, having been started in 1977 with fairly large machines in mind, while Unix began in 1969 with fairly small machines in mind. Of course any old low-end PC today has many times the CPU power, storage, and memory of a 1978-era VAX-11/780. But VMS was a fine OS! Don't knock it unless you've lived with it. Linux is usable, especially for servers, but still displays hack upon hack.

Fred Goldstein

You missed the point... I just tried winver and I'm using version 2004. And this is a fairly new machine, so why is it using a version from the XP era? ;-) That 2d-of-year+month convention worked okay before Y2K...

Firefox 89: Can this redesign stem browser's decline?

Fred Goldstein

I use Firefox and have the menu bar active. I *hate* the hamburger; it takes more clicks and precise hand-eye coordinated gestures to do things; it is much easier to find things from the menu bar on top. I'm at FF 88 now. If I go to 89 do I lose the option of a menu bar?

Firefox has a good privacy ecosystem, with Facebook Container, Ghostery, and a clean separation (if you want) between the URL bar and the search bar. I don't trust Chrome at all in that regard.

Wyoming powers ahead with Bill Gates-backed sodium-cooled nuclear generation plant

Fred Goldstein

Re: location, location, location..

Wyoming mines are mainly open surface pits, not deep.

Fred Goldstein

Re: Go for it

Yes, we are getting closer to viable fusion reactors all the time. Why, every 20 years or so we get halfway closer than we were 20 years earlier. Ad infinitum.

Unihertz Titan Pocket: Like asking Mum for a BlackBerry and she tells you 'but we've got a BlackBerry at home'

Fred Goldstein

Re: Where do these rocket scientists come from?

I retired my Classic and got a KeyONE, since in practice the Android in Classic was almost useless. The Amazon store didn't have most important apps and there was no access to the Google ecosystem that most apps now depend on. Google screwed them badly, for no good reason.

What smartphone reviewers often miss is that reviewers are fans of fondleslabs, and thus don't get PKBs. We PKB fans are often, like me, incapable of using slabs -- it requires good eyesight and hand-eye coordination, and usually pointy-thin fingers like Beelzebub and Steve Jobs. The reviewer has trouble adapting to a PKB because it's not meant for him, any more than a wheelchair is meant for a track star.

I wish the Titan Pocket were just a bit longer, so it would have an Android-friendly aspect ratio. It might then be a good replacement for the KeyONE, which hasn't gotten an update in maybe three years (it's at 7.1.1 without years of security patches). But as a tiny novelty with a square screen, it won't do. Onward is still MIA and rumor is it will be very expensive. I'm in the US on Verizon so it needs to support that network, which Unihertz does.

Lessons have not been learned: Microsoft's Modern Comments leave users reaching for the rollback button

Fred Goldstein

Re: Efficiency?? Ha ha ha ha….

Even with Storage Sense turned off, it appears to sometimes delete files from the %temp% directory, a place that many applications use. With it on, it pretty much wipes that directory, breaking lots of applications. But then MS still thinks a PC is a game machine that rune one or two applications at a time, a glorified DOS, and why would you still have an application running after you go to bed, when it wants to reboot gratuitously in order to break more things?

IBM says it's built the world's first 2nm semiconductor chips

Fred Goldstein

Re: Sounds like it is time for a new standard

Spanish flea. With music by Herb Alpert.

Adobe co-founder and PostScript co-creator Charles Geschke dies, aged 81

Fred Goldstein

Re: I understand

Quite standard American usage nowadays. A euphemism, perhaps, but very normal usage here. It ahs gotten more common in recent decades.

Fred Goldstein

Interpress. Shortly after Adobe was founded, someone I worked with at DEC, who had been at Xerox PARC, told me about that new startup. Interpress had some limitations, and Adobe PostScript had filled them in, making it a more proper page description language. But I've since heard that Interpress was enhanced (v2?) so in its final form it could do more than PostScript or its derivative PDF. I haven't seen it, but supposedly it exists.

Pigeon fanciers in a flap over Brexit quarantine flock-up, seek exemption from EU laws

Fred Goldstein

IPoAC has only limited usefulness. The bird can only carry a payload of about 140 characters, or 280 if they're double-sided. So mostly the birds just tweet.

Yep, the 'Who owns Linux?' case is back from the dead

Fred Goldstein

They lost on everything that mattered. For one thing, they never owned Unix in the first place; that was a lie. They had purchased a master reseller license from Novell, not the ultimate ownership that they had claimed. And the stuff allegedly copied wasn't proprietary. Etc. The case was weaker than a wet sheet of toilet paper holding up a cinderblock.

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