* Posts by sed gawk

631 posts • joined 1 May 2008


Who cares what Apple's about to announce? It owes us a macOS x86 virtual appliance for non-Mac computers

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Industry Standards

I think the writer of the above does not understand industry standards. Industry standards are not whatever is most widely used. Industry standards are data layouts and protocols for interoperation so that there is as little lock in as possible.

I think the author understands perfectly.

Logic is industry standard DAW.

Illustrator is industry standard DTP

Photoshop is industry standard DTP

GCC/Clang are industry standard compilers.

GIT is industry standard SCCM.

C++ is industry standard language for serious commercial software ( AAA games, large commercial applications, the mars rover etc)

sed gawk Silver badge

OSX is not unix, it's mach kernel with BSD userland

See title,

if you think "UNIX" means a terminal, sure it will meet your needs, but if you mean UNIX, as in the semantics that your application can rely upon, then no, it's not a UNIX, not a particularly good BSD.

If you want UNIX, use UNIX, if you want Linux, use Linux, but stop with this idea that a non-UNIX kernel is a UNIX.

Try AIX if you want UNIX, or an actual *BSD. I bet, you'll hate it.

UNIX uses monolithic kernels, MACH uses microkernels, they are not the same design.

As for the "overrated linux", how many of the top 500 supercomputers run any form of apple os?

The current top ten all run linux, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOP500

If you like the UI, like the hardware, please enjoy it, but stop gaslighting us.

sed gawk Silver badge

It's about the pro applications

I'm a linux user, but I've worked for a lot of media organisations.

These orgs use apple kit, to run adobe applications. They have an opinionated workflow, and while they require that workflow, switching over to other applications isn't happening.

Conversely there is a lot of massive kit controlled by windows pc's and they are never switching as Xmillion quid worth of kit is not being switched out until it dies, and certainly not for some business case, which says "at best, it will work the same, and you won't notice the difference".

Linux is slowly creeping up in the education sector, with chromebook type devices, and is owning mobile with Android / an-other distro based on Linux.

For the rest of us, Linux has been doing sterling service for a very long time.

I'm currently issued with a work apple laptop - a 2019 macbook pro.

It's not to my taste, my hands are too large to avoid hitting the touchpad whilst typing.

The UI seems to dislike having two maximised windows on different screens (one external monitor).

It can be done, but not maximised so, it has to be manually placed, which is a slightly irritating.

It only has thunderbolt ports, so adapters are required to use wired keyboards/mice/ethernet.

As a programmer, it's not a very useful machine, as it makes typing actively painful without the desktop setup, e.g. it's a mobile computer that is not great when on the move.

But it can be easily remote wiped, and that's what work cares about.

I can 'proceed without you', judge tells Julian Assange after courtroom outburst

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

Mate, I'll drink to that.

Btw I like the koan, where is it from?

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Assange

I "have users" too. That's not the point, Manning broke the law, no dispute. But the system was essentially an unsecured sharepoint type site, and the credentials were sufficient to access the docs.

Let me be more specific, the credentials used were issued to Manning, and did not require some exploit for the removal of documents.

That doesn't mean all the actions taken whilst logged in were authorized, clearly that's not in dispute.

But Manning didn't break into anything, and neither did Assange.

Assange does seem to have encouraged him to cover his tracks by using someone else's login, according to the indictment.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

@jake actually this was what I was getting at..

Re: Interesting note from the field.

But lets shelve all that shit, and crack a few beers.. enough jaw jaw..

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

Re berating the US, I responded to the guff spewed forth by cliffwilliams about the US being the worlds policemen. I don't blame the American people for their government, anymore than I accept responsibility for Bozo and Jaj Jaj of the jaundiced gillet. The US has real power, it could make things better for the world, shit it could start with making life better for its own people. Forgive me for the stan lee quote, but "with great power comes high electric bills*"

The behaviour of the British Government is deeply shameful, we have people standing up in Parliament and saying that international treaties no longer bind us, our word is worth shit.

That's tragic, for us. Unfortunately, we are completely powerless, the US has checks and balances, fwtaw, we have none, The PM can and will do whatever he likes, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Indeed the more extreme the behaviour, the more entrenched people have become. We are cheerleading the destruction of the GFA..

The Assange case is just a particular egregious case, and the brazen nature of it offends people.

I agree it will not change the results in the US, but should we be complicit and silent?

We have hippies protesting a printing plant, being called "an organised crime group". We're screwed here..

Have a drink with me, we can agree that governments are gits..

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

What stinks is the refusal to accept that, arresting a person, holding them in savage conditions unless they have access to life changing amounts of money, and threatening to deprive them of their children, is not a recipe for honesty. It's lawfare. To treat that so flippantly as "if you don't want to lose your kids don't go to jail" is spoken as someone who believes it couldn't happen to you.

In other words, bad things only happen to bad people, and if you're innocent you'll be okay.

It's not a race issue, it is a black and white issue, unfortunate choice of words.

I'm no fan of the deli-bama, he's a black tony blair. He queered his pitch before he even took office, by squandering the immense amount of leverage he had in the 100 days prior to his first day.

He's a regular run of the mill US president, in otherwords a bit of a cunt, (carter excepted), GITMO, drones, and the same shite as has happened previously.

He had a brain, with a background in law, just like blair. But Sorry not being Bush Junior, is not that high a bar, so you can pick that card back up.

The guy under discussion is nearly an alibino, he could hide under rice, I think its funny that you complain that people don't make a fuss when it's a white guy being badly treated by the law.

And yet here you are, saying you don't care. Incase you missed it, it's an accusation of hypocracy rather than racism, for the record, I don't think you give a single shit what colour someone is.

Staying the hell away from the place has obviously taught you absolutely nothing about it

On the contrary, I know a lot of Americans, I count many of them as my friends and colleagues, but your .gov is fucked, and is a stain on the planet.

Being a fool, is an occupational hazard, being thought a fool, is beneath my notice.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

-On the contrary, the cases are indeed linked, given they are both political in nature.

"Inflating the issue doesn't make your argument better, it merely makes you look smaller."

You're welcome to your opinion, care to address the points you walked away from during our last discussion, while we're discussing "looking smaller".

One person is not "people". Am I to understand it is your contention that this is a one off, an abberation, in the unblemished record of the US wiping it's feet on the laws of countries around the world, and Britain. E.g. funding IRA attacks that nearly took out the government of Thatcher, Funding the Irgun. Prove it, there are at least 15 incidents related to that base alone, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-51209882

Funny enough the best place to find them is in US media , here's one - https://www.stripes.com/news/wife-children-of-mildenhall-airman-killed-in-car-crash-1.12166 From that source

The crash was the third involving fatalities from the base in recent months along the same stretch of road. Staff Sgt. Gerald Nicholls, 32, was killed in a two-car crash on March 7. Andrew Waxler, the husband of an airman at the base, was killed two weeks later in a one-car accident on a foggy morning.

Remind me what the plural of person is ?

The only thing that has changed in recent times, is everyone has a camera and access to some sort of web publishing. Previously a D-Notice would be put out and that would be the end of the coverage.

It's been going on for a long time, and until the rule of law counts for something here and in the US, it will keep happening as the craven government bends the knee and averts its gaze.

The political behaviour of our craven government, is why Assange is being broken on the wheel.

Indeed his case turns on proving it's politically motivated, and therefore a violation of the extradition treaty.

The drunk is not the problem, the problem was the Foreign Sec, allowed this to happen, and betrayed his country. The US is used to shitting on local people throughout the world, and the only issue here is that some people are mug enough to think that doesn't include us, despite all evidence to the country.

In this case the US is not at fault for protecting it's citizen, it's us, Britain, which must hang it's head in shame at this utter betrayal of the most basic duty of government.

Assange, is being persecuted for publishing, he's denied a full defence. I'm surprised you don't care more, after all this entire thread is about people arguing about the life of a white guy.

One would have thought you'd be up in arms about it, or maybe "all lives don't matter" and really we should just shut up and suck it up.

Being an apologist for evil is wrong, stop it. My country right or wrong, is the language of fools.

The cases show as Brits we swapped sides in a colonial relationship, some of us noticed.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Assange

"No, manning used authorized access to a system to exfiltrate information which assange published."

"So he misused credentials to access classified materials and then use them in an unauthorised way by sending them to an unauthorised party without classified access."

1. Use of authorized credentials to access a system is not misused, that's the function of the credentials.

2. Dissemination of classifed information is the crime, for which a strong public interest defence applies, e.g. your crimes are not covered by confidentiality.

3. Publishing leaked information, has long and noble history, even in the US, e.g. deep throat/Bernstein.

"He's also on record as having encouraged Manning to do that, deliberately and specifically."

He's on record as saying something along the lines, of "thirsty eyes never run dry", i.e. acting as a journalist cultivating a source, like "woodward and bernstein"

So you're STILL saying he didn't conspire to break into a classified military system?

Yes, he published thousands of documents, which were taken using the "authorized access" that Manning had. There's no need to break in, as Manning had access already. Try to read the facts of the case rather than parroting rubbish at people, who clearly can read. "Authorized Access".

"So tell me... if I told you to break into your company's salary database - and even allegedly offered techniques, assistance and further contacts to advise you, and then you send it all to me, and I published it online, you think that's not classed as conspiracy for unauthorised computer access?"

Why don't you it doing whistling dixie with your thumb up your arse, it's your fantasy.

Being a journalist is protected in the US, being a publisher is not being a hacker, this is tech site mate, perhaps try wired.

That the act itself isn't unauthorised access or dissemination of privilieged data? This makes no sense, try to wipe away the froth, and restate.

That you should go unpunished if it showed that the CEO lied about what he was paid? That neither of us could ever possibly go to jail? Are we still in your fantasy?

Manning broke the law, Assange didn't. Manning conspired to publish information, which was classifed, Manning admitted it, served time for it. Assange as a publisher and journalist, acted properly within the law.

Seriously, have five minutes and think about it. I don't require more than a picosecond to dismiss your evidence free rubbish, based on a scenario you pulled out of your unwiped arse.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Meanwhile when the boot is on the other foot...

The argument given is that she had diplomatic immunity, and that waiving it in one circumstance would set a precedent, which would not be good given the sort of countries in which the US and GB have embassies. Not my argument, just what has been discussed.

This is a flagrant lie, https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/10/the-foreign-office-must-be-challenged-over-sacoolas-immunity/

It's just craven cowardice on behalf of the Conservative government, nodding along to his master's voice.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: The Much Bigger Picture Show ....

Well quite. There is a decent amount of support for funding for terrorists in the US, but remember the IRA don't count, as only brown people are terrorists in the US.

In fairness to the original poster, he mentioned the Middle East, as of course his history starts with Sept 11th, ignores the displacement of millions of people, and all the other conflicts around the world.

The history is just too sordid to describe from the smallpox blanket, CONTRA, MK-ULTRA, arguably the biggest victims of the US are the American people. The rest of the world, has a long list of complaints, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

She didn't have immunity as the indefatigable Craig Murray has reported.

There is a list of registered people with immunity, she's not on it.

The facts are plain our government allows people to come here, spy on us, kill us, and flee with impunity.


sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

I stand corrected, #45 commander bone spurs is indeed an fine example, of how one can rise to the highest position in the land, shaking off the disadvantages of obvious dementia.

In mitigation, I did point out that wealth tends to insulate one from this issue, take OJ, I think he probably did it, but "you can't put the juice in Jail", because "I'm not black I'm OJ".

Back to the covidiot in chief,

"If you get them in order, you get extra points"

"I know words, I know all the best words"

"I'm like a smart person"


Yeah, he's a putz.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Assange

It costs me little to address Manning as "her", by the way, I don't think any of (Dr Dre, Dr Fox, or Dr J) were real doctors, still they wanted to be called Dr, who am I to demure.

I've never spent time in prison to expose war crimes by the most powerful nation in the world. That's enough courage to have earned a choice of pronoun if nothing else.

Incidentally, should Manning decide to prefer being addressed as jabberwocky, I don't really see the harm in acceding to the request.

I don't really give a monkey one way or another how Manning chooses to live, but you've decided to "self-identify" as JCitizen, so surely you like to be addressed as such?

Also having your sentence commuted is good fortune no doubt, but I'd not like to spend even a single day in a Prison. I've spent some time in the police cells in the UK, I can only imagine it's luxurious in comparison to where one might be sent, given the charges laid against Mannings.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Blackmailed

That attitude stinks jake!, Guilt by accusation. Frankly most people faced with never seeing their loved one, will be compliant, and that is antithetical to the interests of justice.

"Suggestion: Don't do anything to get incarcerated if this matters to you."

Unfortunately, being the wrong colour in the US is enough to be deprived of your liberty or your life.

Being poor is criminalised, being black is criminalised, being mentally unwell is criminalised, being falsely accused is a way of life for the people subjected to the vengeful legal system in the US.

Unless one is extremely wealthy, staying the hell away from the place is about as good as it gets.

But it's not a crime to walk the streets in KKK robes, or torture people in "black prisons", or murder them with flying bombs, or to fit up innocent people. Not a single person rescued by the innocence project, has seen the manifestly corrupt people who inflicted that harm on them prosecuted.

Just like us, and the >1000 people died in police custody, have yet to see a single killer prosecuted.

sed gawk Silver badge


So it seems he was right, given TFA.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Assange

No, manning used authorized access to a system to exfiltrate information which assange published.

No hacking was required, as the motion to quash, admits the provision of thousands of classified documents to wiki leaks, well before the "password hacking" allegedly took place.


The password nonsense is to turn up the heat, even the description is nonsense. "Part of a password hash".

It's typical of the US legal system, throw any old shite at the defendant, so they take a plea.

To Manning's credit, she admitted her part and served her time.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: The Much Bigger Picture Show ....

The Middle east.

So that would be providing material support to the terroists campaign against the US's 'Ally' Britain, by the Irgun, culminating in the murder at the king david hotel.

That would also be propping up the head choppers in Saudi and, the rest of the gulf states.

That would be allowing Egypt to be the US torturer in chief.

Let's be clear, as Europeans, and especially as Brits, our hands are not clean. However,

that you lack any understanding of your own history, doesn't excuse you for the dodgy shit, foisted on the rest of the world.

The US is a force for evil, and a great deal of the American people, are trying to change that, but you need to start by accepting that https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321

The number of coups, and flagrant contempt for the rule of law, can be evidenced again, and again.

So please, wind your neck in.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: remember everyone in NATO sat on their hands until the US intervened in the former Yugoslavia

The Russians gave a generation of blood and treasure to liberate western europe.

The Americans came a day late (two years) and a dollar short (3.4 Billion in that time)

They were handsomely paid for their "help".

The flag flying that liberated berlin was the hammer and sickle.

Frankly the US was quite sympathetic to the nazi's and only entered the war due to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbour, see https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/cryptologic-quarterly/pearlharbor.pdf for some interesting discussion on the matter.

The racism on open display in the US, doesn't point to much in the way of discord with the racism of the Nazi party. For example, red-lining https://ncrc.org/holc/ that map is from 1938, "a federal agency, the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation (HOLC)"

It's a federal agency setup to promote the same race based policies the nazi espoused.

The US has been a force for evil almost throughout it's modern history, it's perfectly represented by Trump, and the "all lives matter" crowd.

The US also has the seeds of a wonderful ideal, and has given the world much in the way of advancement and improvement to humanity, its people represent a great hopefulness.

That tension is yet to be resolved, and one hopes the positive will accelerate and outweigh the bad, leaving it just as the history all countries would rather forget.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Did Assange ever...

It's tragic, regardless of his guilt or innocence, he should be afforded a fair trail with access to his legal team.

We have a government in the UK, cheerfully breaking the law left and right. The only crime he's definitely guilty of, is skipping bail, for which he has been incaserated and served his time.

The current US Administration holds the record for most members convicted during a single term.

The outcomes of this trial in a sense don't matter, as the appearance is having the desired effect, be you innocent or guilty, publish evidence of war crimes (murder of journalists and civilians) and you will be destroyed.

It seems that he'll end his days in a dark place, despite the good he's done by publishing the evidence of war crimes. The war crimes that nobody seriously contends are not evidenced by the "Collateral Murder" video amongst others.

DPL: Debian project has plenty of money but not enough developers

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Window of Opportunity?

Wow, that's just all kinds of wrong.

sed gawk Silver badge

Personally I love the gentoo method, it's a bash script that downloads, compiles, installs.

You can also make binary packages for distribution, it's very easy to host your own packages, share existing packages with others.

I wish that was adopted as a cross distro standard, it's very comfortable for anybody from a BSD background.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Toxic community

Classic example is trying to ban Tovalds, like you're running his kernel, write your own if you don't like his speech. "You're offended? Well so fucking what!" being an arse is not a protected characteristic.

Funny enough, the most "right-on pc wanker speech from a debconf" I heard came from a Brit.

Wondering out loud how someone survived until adulthood given they were too stupid to find food is relatively polite for an angry Finn.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Window of Opportunity?

I've not used windows in getting on for two decades now, surely you are joking and they don't actually advertise to you, during day to day use?

sed gawk Silver badge

FPM make it good bit easier to produce a deb.

Once you've got a working one, you need to jump through a few extra hoops before it meets the requirements for publication, but starting with a working deb makes it considerably less painful.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Oh dear

Got it in one, there is too much dogma.

While I will support with code and cash, I don't feel the need to touch systemd related files, nor do I feel like debugging the same issues worked out previously in shell.

I accept that there is a good amount of value and some actual problems solved by systemd, I do think the problems addressed by systemd would be better backported into the wider Linux ecosystem.

I want to make install a kernel rather than build a dpkg. I do think that the community around debian can be toxic, especially the self-rightous lot that expect to be treated with respect, whilst treating others as beneath contempt.

I now run gentoo with openrc, and it's blissful, I don't need to touch v much other than security updates.

Ultimately, I'm happy with shell, but I understand that others prefer the syntax offered by systemd.

It's fairly small beer in the scheme of things, but hacking on FOOS should be fun, and systemd instance on running things that work perfectly well without it, are not fun.

XInetd powers a few hundred million of turnover for a client of mine, gambling terminal clients.

It's small enough that a cut down version has been audited and verified.

Yes, systemd can do socket activation, but what exactly do I gain here, and so the problem begins.

Brexit border-line issues: Would you want to still be 'testing' software designed to stop Kent becoming a massive lorry park come 31 December?

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: Not a problem at all ...

and there'll be a run on brie & camenbert. Luckily Somerset dairy farmers make some nice ones, so just buy those instead of French stuff.

So let them eat cheese then.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: "I'm going to make some money by betting on the economy going to shite, "

I live here, and have British Citizenship, so I'm not in the position to benifit from the knowledge it's going to be bad.

If you look at the people in the ERG, there is a lot of capital betting on volatility. Some of those people own hedge funds.

If you cannot see the delta between these positions, you're unwilling to see it.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

Cmon you claim its democratic so you voted for these presidents didnt you? They are presidents of the EU which is above our government and you claim democratic so who did you vote for of these presidents?

It's democratic due to the number of people voting having an effect on the people being elected.

Votes are proportionate, See here for a worked example https://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/european-elections/european_elections/the_voting_system.HTML

Conversely the number of people who's vote make little difference to the person being elected here, and the flagrant manipulation of electoral boundaries make the difference.

So you dont need to know who is in charge of the EU hence laws and regulations affecting this country? I live in England, so the laws affecting this country are drafted in Westminster. See upthread for the example of CEB2003/EC2000/12.

There is a fundamental misapprehension of how the EU works. The commission (people nominated by EU member states) propose legislation, the EU Parliament (directly elected by voters using PR) debates ammendments etc, then once they agree the council (The leaders of countries) ratify - that's two places where we can change, or veto it. https://europa.eu/european-union/eu-law/decision-making/procedures_en Educate yourself mate, it's tiresome spoonfeeding you.

I aint asking for the jobsworths just the presidents (because the EU has a few for some reason).

The current trio is made up of the presidencies of the Germany, Portugal and Slovenia.


"Protectionism is rather the point, we'll be on the outside of a protectionist system"

Ok, so that works for you but what about the customers (aka everyone in the country) who are affected by lower quality and higher prices because of protectionism?

You seem to miss the point, it's a protectionist system, so we're collectively (aka everyone in the country) worse off outside of it.

Why must everyone pay for you to cash in (assuming you benefit from it)?

I ran a tiny business paying UK tax while selling to people paying in Euro, how is that cashing in?

Okay, I'm an evil capitalist grinding the faces of the poor or some shite like that?

"You don't seem to recognise, that enormous numbers of business that employ UK people, pay UK tax, are simply going to go to the wall. I declare a personal interest, including mine."

Ok. So at what point do we care about the people in the country then?

Do I not count as one of the people in the country?, how does putting people in the country out of work, help the people in the country? It's mental. Being outside the tent pissing in is worse than being inside the tent pissing out.

We must suffer the costs of protectionism because the protectionism has created these protectionist jobs? Your trying to sell me a cost as a benefit. No, it's not a cost or a benefit. It's a fact that our economy had a foundation stone, and without that foundation, lots of businesses will topple.

You keep suggesting that being outside is someway to our advantage, but no evidence, no links to support your view, it's "cheap shoes for peasants" rhetoric.

Either we maintain the same quality of food, so it costs us more, and our food production industry goes to the wall. Or we lower the qalitity of food so our food production industry goes to the wall.

Joy, looks like a win/win.

"Telling you our political class is shit, is not the same as saying all political actors are shit."

Ok. But the EU gov is shit. They cant even sit in one place, instead have to move to appease a member with pork. And you care because ? They are shit because they move around. Mate you're past the bottom of the barrel and excavating the damp earth beneath.

"Try to accept a level of nuance"

Ok. Blair sold the country to the EU because he wanted a job with the EU.

Thatcher took us into the then EEC, in 1973, Blair was elected in 1997, I understand you are wedded to this idea but that's desperate stuff.

We were saved from the appalling Euro because Brown hated Blair.

We didn't join the Euro as Brown understood the Euro is a shit currency (ineffective surplus recycling)

We have seen how good the EU is at running things, they decked economies to protect their currency. Proof, links, or more bluster?

The UK bounced out of recession while the EU trashed poorer economies in the Eurozone.

Proof, links, or more bluster?

The UK in not in the Euro and not in the EU and is in recession, funny how that works, it's almost like there are other factors at play.

"The Tories are left wing only in the imagination of the politically stunted."

I seem to have hit a left wing nerve there. I'm just offended that these people could be described as left wing, it makes it impossible to describe corbyn as left wing when you content that the tories are left wing. The nerve you hit, is my gag reflex.

With blow out spending (pre-covid) and making policies such as triple lock pensions. That of course while claiming austerity. Triple lock pension, I see, so blatant bribe to their base, while closing down social care facilities.

"A left wing approach would be UBI, free internet, feeding hungry children without being shamed by premiership footballers."

So more free stuff. Yes that would be further left. It's investment, you drive down the cost of creating businesses so people start them, they can feed their familes so will try things which enrich us as a society.

"Left wing, might involve asking why people are so desperate that they'll cross the worlds busiest shipping lane in a poundland dingy to try and seek safety (hint because we colonised their home countries so they speak English)."

I thought economic migrants trying to get here in a dingy were just running away from the French.

The desperate people are refugees, not migrants. We have a proud tradition of helping people, see the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf_Dubs,_Baron_Dubs shame on you for tarnishing our history with such grotesque distortions, may you never be that desperate.

That glorious place fully on board with membership of the EU. If you are a refugee, who speaks english, wtf would you want to go to a non-english speaking country?

Yet they want to come here with our opt outs and leaving the EU. Even travelling through other EU countries to get here. Again, being a speaker of English is the strongest indication of wanting to get to an English speaking country, if you are french speaker, you try to get to France.

I cannot imagine that when fleeing for your life, you choose a destination based on the number of opt outs from the EU, you live here, and have demonstrate heartstopping indifference to how the EU works, and you clearly have access to the internet. WTF do you expect some poor sod desperate for their life to have a better understanding than you do?

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

We vote for MEP, using PR.

The people we cannot select are called the Lords, try to keep up.

We vote here based on FPTP, that right there is enough difference.

Impose their will, proof, not assertion. You've replied now four times, and yet to find anything to back up your contention. Unsurprisingly as it's utterly unsupported.

You've been given links, and over the last four years ample room to prove it, and you keep falling back on rubbish. The EU doesn't impose anything, we have a veto. The laws of the UK apply in the UK, so for example EC2000/12 in our law is Conduct of Employment Businesses 2003.

So we elected people to the EU parliament, Our head of government is represented at the Council of Europe (the leaders of EU 28 countries). We decide if we'll veto legislation that we vote on, and if we ratify it, we draft a law to implement it in our country - It's a model of good transparent governance.

We don't have difficultly leaving, we drafted the article covering leaving. We invoked it, and we left last year. We have difficultly being not worse off having left, that's an entirely different matter.

Being single being worse than being married, doesn't mean getting a divorce is difficult.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: How hard is it really?

If we have the space for the shed, what is operation stack about?

Why has kent been turned into a lorry park?

The level playing field regulation that we refuse to sign up to mandate that we don't race to the bottom on animal welfare standards and Country of Origin Labelling. (COOL).

The negotiating objectives of the US, include removal of COOL, and lower welfare standards.


Otherwise, why would we not sign up? The simple answer is a desire to not be bound by the rules.

The US and Canada are considerably bigger than us, a drive of several days is common place.

You can drive from amsterdam to london, with only a stop at the French border to drive on/off in under half a day.

The customs paperwork will be checked as we are telegraphing our desire to break the rules at everyturn.

A JIT system is based on minimizing slack, there is simply no room to absorb the extra delays.

The businesses will relocate or fold.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @H in The Hague

The distance between Conservative and New labour being pretty thin. I think Boris moved the needle back a bit but not greatly.

Minimum wage = Labour - opposed by the Conservative party.

Child Trust funds = Labour - opposed by the Conservative party.

Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships = opposed by the Conservative party.

Good Friday Agreement. (Major has to share partial credit for this)

New Labour had many faults, but the Major government and the Blair years have a decent record.

The current shower since 2010 have turned us into a laughing stock.

But tie your scarf tightly and three cheers for vassalage.

The only people who can't see clear differences between this utter bunch of cupid stunts and the worst excesses of New Labour, don't care to see.

The invasion of Iraq, the use of torture in the war on terror, these are stains on the Labour government and the persons of Tony Blair and Jack Straw.

All the social and economic gains made since 1997 have been reversed since the 2010 election of the Bacon Botherer and his Illiberal mates.

Hence why we are now neck deep in the brown stuff while you carry on dribbiling out this guff in the vain hope that if you say it enough times, it will be come true.

Sorry Lady Macbeth, those hands will never be clean again.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

The thing is that the money behind the leave campaign want to leave with no deal, the rest is just window dressing. Personally I think that Bozo and jaj jaj are now bored and just want it over with.

Having tested the water with the Assange trial, and the various affronts to legality in the last few years, it's become apparent a significant minority of people will excuse any amount of malfeasance provided it's in someway spun as relating to Brexit.

Thus now emboldened, they are going to push it until the other side refuse to negotiate, leaving us with "no option" but to leave without a deal.

The rule of law, we've heard of it.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

I'm not sure whether the interpretation by the telegraph is accurate or not. The things coming out on Wednesday are meant to clarify, so the UK Government position may well be that the state aid and ECJ impacts on NI were never agreed to cover the rest of the UK and the interpretation has always been that they wouldn't, with domestic law providing the legal clarity to match. I'm sure Gina Miller will crowdfund a court case to test this. So you accept the earlier reporting of .GOV desire to redraw the W/A.

Leaving the EU does not put us "as supplicants". It puts us as a sovereign nation making its own laws and choosing whether to cooperate with the EU on international matters. If EU law makes that undesirable we can choose to ignore them. This is manifestly untrue, we'll be forced to comply with regulations we cannot draft, that is forcing us into the position that you claim we occupy.

Geography matters.

re: EU funding for companies to move out of the UK, read https://archive.is/ChK1i - I'd like the FT directly but their paywall gets in the way. Note that the Twinings grant was reversed, but the process is this: EU gives funds for 'regional development', those funds are used to bribe (or "subsidise" as it's legally known) companies to open new facilities in that region, the companies then shift production and close down their old factories. Meanwhile the UK couldn't match those subsidies because of state aid rules. No wonder the EU are so keen to prevent us setting our own laws in this area. Regional funding is intended to redress some of the damage done to the most deprived areas of the country, damaged by the Thatcher government and ignored by Blair and his successors. Companies leaving is not down to funding, e.g. redevelopment work in south wales. Conversely the steelworks in Port Tabot is shutting down due to Brexit https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/tata-steelworks-port-talbot-nationalised-18671269

I wasn't a fan of TTIP either. Good as that is at least something we can agree on, and a sterling example of how being in the EU allowed us to tell the septics to refer to the reply in "arkell vs pressdram"

British politicians were explicitly flying to Brussels, telling them how to negotiate with the UK, telling them not to negotiate with the UK, promising to overthrow the democratic result of the referendum, actively trying to do exactly that. That's not baseless nonsense, that's a matter of record.

We've been in negotiation for four years, There is a widely publicised delegation of pro EU politicians going to ask for a long extension in the event of failure to get a deal. But the only people proposing to flatly ignore the results were the "Illiberal and Anti-democratic" party in the UK, and they got spanked.

Incidently they made that promise knowing (1) they'd never be elected, and (2) purely to spike Labour's guns in the GE. Labour offered a deal, and a vote on the outcome, which was a reasonable compromise, in that it allowed leavers to confirm that what they were sold, was still what they wished to buy.

Perhaps you missed the Supreme Court creating new law, They didn't they affirmed the existing law had to be ratified in parliament, which it duly was with the WAB 2017, a three line bill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_(Notification_of_Withdrawal)_Act_2017

maybe you didn't notice centuries of Parliamentary convention being overthrown,

I noticed the illegal behaviour of the Leave campaign, and the contempt for parliament shown by Bozo.

it seems to have escaped your notice that politicians voted to force the Prime Minister to not leave the EU without an agreement That is perfectly proper, we elect MP's to represent, not delegate, for every pro-remain MP in a Leave seat, there is a pro-leave MP in a remain seat.

that they were at the same time telling the EU not to give the UK. This is untrue, we've been offered generous term, however we simply don't want a deal, have never wanted a deal, and will never accept a deal, the rest is just window dressing. Also it's not a matter of MP's telling the EU anything.

Our negotiators have been laughable, and outclassed on every matter.

Which is, incidentally, why we ended up with such a shitty withdrawal agreement. We have an agreement based on the Red lines of the headbangers, trying to split the four freedoms of the single market, which was explained clearly was not happening, also having signed the GFA, we cannot get a deal with oblivates our responsiblities under a binding international treaty.

Blame Theresa May by all means, she has culpability, but at least she wasn't overtly acting against UK interests. Treasonous has caused vast amounts of damage to the interests of the United Kingdom, it is my sincere belief that she should be prosecuted for treason. She is responsible for turning us into a narco-state, for what else would you call it when the family of the PM earn money from selling drugs that are illegal here. https://researchingreform.net/2018/07/02/pharma-company-majority-owned-by-uk-pms-husband-announces-new-cannabis-medication-days-after-home-office-relaxes-ban/

The cost of providing her advantage is borne on our prison system, by our police and is a proximate cause of increased suffering amongst people suffering from chronic life limiting conditions. She has spent years campaigning to damage the young of this country while happily sharing a cabinet with sexual abusers https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-ex-minister-arrested-over-rape-qdm897rv2,

As for the economy, the pandemic and associated lockdown have killed the economy so badly that I already can't get a job, so next year I'm going to run out of money and kill myself.

I do hope this is not the case, I encourage you to speak to someone, no matter how bleak life looks, there is still hope, try https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/ or call them on '116 123' or https://www.thecalmzone.net/, People are there to listen to you, please try them.

I will however at least get to see the end of the UK's membership of the EU, so I can die content on that front anyway. That's your perogative, I of course disagree with that view.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

We'll have full control of our own country, with no EU telling us whether we're allowed to support British companies or not The GFA means we can't do things which distort the market, so no to ignoring state aid rules. A polemic in the torygraph here makes this point, and demands changes to the W/A to "fix" this. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/13/boris-johnson-cannot-allow-brexit-deal-rip-good-friday-agreement/ .

That give some credence to the reporting today of desired changes to W/A.

With no EU imposing laws on the UK, We had a permanant veto which we rarely used, so we had no laws imposed on us, conversely, leaving puts us as supplicants who'll have to take it, with no seat at the table, like Norway.

I was always willing to accept some short term economic hardship to achieve it.

Covid is a small example of what economic hardship might look like, and this is but a taste, I wonder if you'll be willing to see the hardship imposed on your countrymen in quite the positive light.

Right now it looks like we won't even suffer that, due to other factors (e.g. a global pandemic causing economic damage that progress on trade - FTA or WTO - will help repair).

So it's all down to Covid and, no-deal will magical make it better somehow? really? please explain, because the general concensus is that No-deal + Covid is considered worse than no-deal.

with no EU using our money to bribe companies to move out of the UK.

Don't know what you are referring to here, can you clarify please?

What's really confusing me is why people seem so upset at the UK negotiating a trade deal that rejects allowing a foreign power to dictate UK law. what like TTIP that we were cheerleaders for and thanks to our membership of the EU, managed to escape from.

*When British politicians are telling a foreign power how to impose control over the British Government and its people This is just baseless nonsense, we control our own laws, hence why laws differ through the EU. Small example drugs, different laws in Portugal, NL, UK.

Taxations - different throughout EU, legislative bodies ...

You are being challenged on the substance of your contributions, as they don't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

It's been widely reported, will you only accept an on the record quote of "The UK .Gov intends to tear up an agreement"?

I don't intend to attack anyone, you are entitled to disagree with me, indeed I defend your right to hold opposing views to mine, on this and every issue.

I think that the reports in the Media are reasonable evidence that this idea was floated.

I will concede that until the concrete details of any such proposal are published, it's somewhat previous to carp about the contents.

I do feel you are entrenched in the position of it will be fine, and the result is counter to that position.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: How hard is it really?

So Canada and Mexico and the US are part of NAFTA iircc.

That's rather a large difference, also we currently have a JIT system which mean that the paperwork being done in advance of the very long drives across the US and Canda are not feasible here.

For example, this is the mini, take a look at the crankshaft - just one part https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

We're a fairly small country and the space for inspection, warehousing is not there anymore, we don't have the ability to do that, hence our government's plan for the equivelent is "don't check". Except for when we check https://www.gov.uk/government/news/temporary-tariff-regime-updated

Also between Canda/US/Mexico, you have English, French and Spanish.

Try Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Polish, Romainan, Bulgarian, Swedish in less space than a large US state.

Also, the reason we are going to have to declare goods, is Country of Origin Labelling, as the EU has higher animal welfare standards, and refuse to allow the UK to become a back door to lower quality foodstuffs, hence the level playing field regulations.

Your suggestion is based on ignoring an FTA, ignoring the relative size of the countries, but apart from that, it's still not credible.

You cannot take a load of goods into the single market without having declared what they are, that is not flying, not now, not ever. We have the same rules currently so most trucks are just scanned for extra passengers. Now the driver must be checked to ensure right to enter, the loads must be checked to allow rights of transit and duties paid.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

By the way, as per usual, you've not answered a single one of the questions RE the EU and the supposed lack of democratic accountability.

All you've shown is that you thought Mandelson was a tool, as if it's an either or choice.

It was a no deal from the start, as everyone paying attention could see.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

Reason - is not the same as blind faith.

Logic, dictates a man who lies like breathing is not telling you the truth.

The facts are you are going to blindly disregard every thing you are shown, and finally blame it on the French. (Evidence being you've already done it, and been pulled up on it)

You want this, you're going to get your wish. Have the good grace to acknowledge the damage your desire is inflicting on the country, not least it's four years on, and you and CJ still can't point to anything that will be better.

Your best argument, is "It won't be that bad", mate that's a hell of a chat up line, "come home with me, it won't be that bad, and at least it will be over quickly"

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

Fair point - here is sky https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-live-row-set-to-erupt-over-governments-withdrawal-agreement-plans-12065657

The torygraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/07/politics-latest-news-politics-news-boris-johnson-brexit-trade/

The mirror https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-give-brussels-october-22638843

Politics home https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-set-for-eu-clash-as-number-10-casts-doubt-on-brexit-deal

BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54051933

Express https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1332474/Brexit-talks-Boris-Johnson-news-northern-Ireland-withdrawal-agreement-customs-bill

ITV https://www.itv.com/news/2020-09-07/pm-planning-to-override-key-parts-of-brexit-withdrawal-agreement

Facts mate. if everyone at the party tells you you're drunk, you don't drive.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

Really? Does anybody know all of the EU presidents without looking it up (people might remember the German war woman but mostly because there were complaints about how she got elected).

And that has what to do with PR or FPTP?

It's like trying to debate someone with ADD, if you can name the person in charge of X, doesn't have any baring on the degree of democratic deficit in them assuming the role.

Protectionism is rather the point, we'll be on the outside of a protectionist system, except geographically we are rather more affected by that, hence why we join in the first place.

You don't seem to recognise, that enormous numbers of business that employ UK people, pay UK tax, are simply going to go to the wall. I declare a personal interest, including mine.

Telling you our political class is shit, is not the same as saying all political actors are shit.

Try to accept a level of nuance, Biden will be v slightly less shit than Trump, who was less of a war monger than (H) Clinton.

Bozo is worse than Treasonous, who was less competent than the bacon Botherer.

Merkel is clearly more competent than our entire Government, Macron is less trustworthy than CMOT Dribbler.

The Tories are left wing only in the imagination of the politically stunted.

The Bail out was for companies not people, leaving three million people destitute.

The creation of a new class of benefit claimant, (1) Income based, (2) Contribution based, (3) did you former employer like you pleb.

Left wing, my revolutionary comrade Clair Fox, type of left wing, as in Right Wing IRA apologist for the Warrington bombing.

A left wing approach would be UBI, free internet, feeding hungry children without being shamed by premiership footballers.

Not Treating hippies as "organised crime group" while uttering not a single word about actual blockading of the port of Dover.

Left wing, might involve asking why people are so desperate that they'll cross the worlds busiest shipping lane in a poundland dingy to try and seek safety (hint because we colonised their home countries so they speak English).

The KipCons are throwing the Irish under the bus, destroying our international reputation, (what's left of it) refusing to stop selling arms to people who dismember journalists in embassies.

The bombing of yemen is displacing people who end up here.

A left wing position might say that firstly, we might stop arming the aggressor.

But if a tenner off a meal (Blantant bribe to the turnip running `spoons) is all it takes, you're easily bought, left wing. They bailed out their mates so enough people would look the other way, and you fell for it, again.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

So Brexit, not a single statement to explain why it won't be a shit show.

Just deflection and strawmen.

The evidence of it being a shit show comes from many sources.

The logistics industry think it will be bad - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/20/port-of-dover-warning-regular-gridlock-congestion-hard-brexit-trade

The medical profession think it will be bad - https://www.bma.org.uk/what-we-do/working-with-europe/brexit/bma-and-brexit

The automotive industry think it will be bad - https://www.cebos.com/blog/how-brexit-could-affect-the-automobile-industry/

The IT industry think it will be bad - just look at this thread. or https://www.businessinsider.com/british-tech-execs-in-silicon-valley-watching-brexit-unfold-with-horror-2019-2?r=US&IR=T

The Legal profession think it will be bad - https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/the-effect-of-brexit-on-lawyers

The financial industry think it will be bad, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Brexit

In short, you put up a suggestion that the utter shower in power currently are improved by removing any check on their behaviour, and forbidding us from escaping or doing business abroad.

Physician heal thyself.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

Zimbabwe invites unflattering parallels with our fiscal competence.

That said, it's not a bad model for Brexit, economically backward and authoritarian with that nice Uncle 'Bob' booting farmers off their land, and turning the breadbasket of Africa into a basket case.

Australia is far enough away that the idea they have no deal with the EU is lost on the Bigots who are comforted by the idea of a place where this happens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsKtNQpULpA

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic: Stockpile your popcorn

To back up your point, A co-op in Bristol has had a failure of internet.

Cash only, and the number of people being turned away is amazing.

The cash point isn't working and for a significant number of people, no internet = no shopping.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

Actually the issue you have is that fixing incompetent government by adding another layer of incompetent government makes your argument against remaining. Self serving politicians are the norm, so claiming it fixed by adding another layer of self serving politicians where your little life means even less is stupid.

Actually the argument for remaining is the EU is massively more democratic with PR rather than FPTP.

The laws and regulations are well known and friendly to the existing businesses here.

The corruption and incompetence of our political masters is well documented, included in this thread.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

Antifa - stands for Anti Fascism.

Please explain exactly what's wrong with opposing fascism in the context of our history.

It seems you've forgotten exactly what happens when fascist go unopposed.

Secondly, How does Black Lives Matter, have any relevance to brexit?

Thirdly Evidence, not a single link to support, your assertions, just more bluster and deflection.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

That would be the Withdrawal agreement, that is being reneged on as we speak.


Try evidence mate. As you keep telling us how intelligent you are..

It will be a clusterfuck, entirely predictably, and you are trying to stick it on the French.

How little agency do you think we have, we own this screw up, our country voted for it, and our government is implementing it.

In what way can you blame that on the French?

Unless you count Man O' the (cream - e.g. rich and thick) People - Farrige as "The French" in which case, no, it's still our fault.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: You have it backwards.

Again, we're passed the point of mere assertion, back up your claims.

I'll start - Corruption - 12k to save 45million, that is both corruption and incompetence.


That is a staggering theft from the public purse for a fraction of a percent, it's not just corrupt, it's a deliberate attempt to deprive one of the most deprived parts of London, funds.

Find me evidence for your claims, because I don't buy it.

sed gawk Silver badge

Re: How hard is it really?

Explain that to the nice man at customs, that you have no idea what is in the back of the lorry.

It's fantasy, you drive it, you are liable for it.

Most of the drivers are now self-employed, so will be utterly exposed to liability.

I suspect some of them might want to try and limit the fines for smuggling/ failure to declare.

It's a problem, that is going to run and run and run.

The study from the port of Dover, said two minutes would cause hours of tailbacks https://www.verdict.co.uk/study-finds-brexit-could-cause-severe-delays-at-border-checkpoints/

How long do you think it's going to take to unload, check, reload each lorry.

We check for stowaways using CO2 detection machines to avoid that scenario, how do you expect to meet the phytosanitary requirements, or anyone of the thousands of tedious regulations required to protect food production across the Trading bloc.



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