* Posts by Flocke Kroes

5228 publicly visible posts • joined 19 Oct 2007

Blue Origin hopes third time's the charm for New Glenn after two scrubbed launches

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Compare an apple to the right orange

Falcon 9 V1.0: 10,400kg to LEO (expended)

Falcon 9 Current: 17,500kg to LEO (return to drone ship)

New Glenn: 45,000kg to LEO (target, current performance not published. 25,000kg?)

Falcon Heavy: 57,000kg to LEO (Central core expended, side boosters recovered)

Burn required for Starship IFT 11 to circularise in LEO: 4.6 seconds (payload: butter all+11,000kg heat shield+flaps+...)

New Glenn and Starship have very different design strategies. New Glenn is a very conservative design intended to work first time, no matter the cost in time (development started before 2012) or performance. Recent progress with New Glenn depended on switching strategy to one that included some risk of failure. The boosters are expensive and time consuming to manufacture. This was not considered a problem because the target launch rate is 24/year and each booster is expected to launch 25 times.

Starship is far more ambitious and pushes to the limits of technology. The idea was first mentioned in 2005 but the switch to stainless steel was in late 2018. The goal is hundreds of launches per year. The vehicle is optimised for speed of manufacture and operation along with low manufacturing and operation costs. The really difficult part is the factory. Manufacturing pathfinders than explode are not considered an issue because the factory can easily build more.

Applying the criteria for success of one project to the other makes the other project look awful, whichever way round you do it. I am happy each is achieving success by their own standards.

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Re: once this becomes normal

Transfer from Earth escape trajectory to the outer edge of the solar system is about 5km/s. Getting from Earth escape to the Sun is nearly 30km/s. Getting 1kg of shit to the sun would require an amazing rocket.

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Re: Coverage.

Gwen DeMarco: Look! I have one job on this lousy ship, it's stupid, but I'm gonna do it! Okay?

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Re: Coverage.

The freezes reminded me of early SpaceX barge landings. Perhaps we will get a clean view of the landing transmitted after the event. If not, wait a couple of years for Kuiper.

Stoke are currently aiming for early next year and RocketLab recently rescheduled for mid 2026. Firefly hope to launch their first MLV in mid 2026 but do not expect to have a soft landing in the first five attempts. China is making clear progress. Europe not so much but that is an improvement over just a couple of years ago.

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Really hoping for a soft landing

The current schedule* has Blue Moon (small cargo version) pathfinder mission 1 launching in January. That can only happen if they get the booster back in good condition.

* There are lies, damned lies and rocket launch schedules.

Firefox adds AI Window, users want AI wall to keep it out

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Re: A simple question

It appears you are not using the internet properly. You can check by answering this simple question: Have you bought at least ten things you do not want this morning? It the answer is "no" then clearly you need an AI to click through the adverts and silently buy a bunch of tat. With a good AI installed you will not even have to browse the internet yourself.

Rocket Lab's Neutron slips to 2026: 'Our aim is to make it to orbit on the first try'

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Re: SpaceX government funding

There are a bunch of recent articles saying SpaceX got billions in government funding and paid no tax. SpaceX did get billions in government contracts and I would be shocked if they paid a significant amount of tax. Several bits of information get forgotten, like the government got a large number of launches for their money. ULA used to have a monopoly and used to charge accordingly. SpaceX ended the monopoly and offered cheap launch. Together those saved tax payers $40B in just military launches up to 2022. If we are going to talk about living off the government teat SLS demonstrates just how bad SpaceX are at doing it. Starliner bearly shows up in comparison but I wonder what Roscosmos or China would charge for access to the ISS if there wasn't an alternative.

Tesla has done really well out of government subsidies. I found £200M from the UK between 2011 and 2022. I think that has come to an end. The biggest number I could find was $41B for total US Tesla subsidies up to 2032. I cannot imagine the current regime paying out as promised.

Hyperloop is a shoddy disaster. Musk funded the infrastructure which some other companies used to rent out for fleecing investors. I did find $1.2E12 and Hyperloop in the same headline. Only a tiny fraction of that money will be wasted on Hyperloop companies (Hyperloop TT and Virgin Hyperloop). I have yet to find Musk raking in substantial amounts of cash from this rubbish.

I assumed the OP is conflating Hyperloop with the Boring Company. Las Vegas is probably losing money on it but mostly I find links to under utilisation and inconvenience when trying to use it. I did find $8B, but I think this is just Musk trying to block a railway tunnel so people have to drive cars instead.

For trillions of dollars I would look at the damage done by DOGE and Musk's efforts at installing the Trump regime rather than subsidies.

Bitcoin bandit's £5B bubble bursts as cops wrap seven-year chase

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Re: When will Trump be indicted?

The current evidence is that a Republican president cannot be indicted while in office no matter how strong the evidence. Senior Republicans are promising Trump will be impeached for a third time if people vote Democrat. Impeachment from Congress means nothing unless the Senate follows through with a conviction so Democrats have to win both houses. To new congress will not be in session until 2027-01-03 so that is the earliest opportunity for things to get started.

China hates crypto and scams, but is now outraged USA acquired bitcoin from a scammer

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Re: Bejing sounds more legit...

President for life does stupid things until someone pays him to stop. That strategy is sufficiently effective that time spent working a complicated technical scam would represent a significant loss of revenue from his core business. Note that the real work was done four years ago so anyone involved has likely been fired for gross professional competence by now.

Musk gets approval for bumper Tesla payout but, unlike his robot, there are strings attached

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Re: Like a steep hill to a Cybertruck?

Not a problem. The biggest customer appears to be SpaceX and Boca Chica is flat. Parking should not be a problem as Starbase is set up to scrap stainless steel on an industrial scale. I am not sure how xAI will manage.

Microsoft: Don't let AI agents near your credit card yet

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Sharpening blade covers welded on to make kitchen knives safer

Some strange and obscure website had an article about Amazon being annoyed by an AI shopping agent. Presumably people are using the agent because the web site has been enshittified beyond usability. The answer is not to duct tape a false sense of security for credit card numbers onto AI shopping agents. Shop anywhere else.

UK space sector 'lacks strategic direction,' Lords warn

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Re: Space sector?

Satellites have been low quantity high margin products. The transition to mass produced low margin products is well under way. Oneweb satellites provided an excellent opportunity to go with the flow and be ready for the new satellite market. An opportunity we sent to Florida.

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Re: The "strategic direction" should be obvious

In the early days SpaceX launched from Kwajalein Atoll. The advantage was they could get a launch license. No-one wanted to delay Florida Air traffic for a toy rocket start up company that would be dead within a year. Going forward, Kwaj was too isolated for commercial payloads. Payloads require clean room environmentally controlled storage, configuring for flight and loading up with cryogenic or hypergolic propellants. The infrastructure isn't there. The people are not there (there is a naval base and about 1000 civilians). Getting there is inconvenient and no-one with the required qualifications is going to stay. Ascension Island is even less viable than Kwaj. Kourou is not ideal but at least it is set up to handle launch and payloads.

(Rockets only go up for a short time to quickly get out of the densest part of the atmosphere. At the first opportunity they tip over towards horizontal.)

Trump turnabout sees him re-nominate amateur astronaut Jared Isaacman to run NASA

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Re: rather have more space research

Excellent priority, but not shared by Russel Vought. Judging by RFK Jr it is amazing that a flat Earther has not already been appointed. The main job of NASA administrator is to get a slice of budget out of congress. This is normally done by proposing a giant cost plus contracts for old space. Old space are currently pointing out Jared's public record of speaking out against cost plus.

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Re: Isaacman in charge of NASA until next fallout with Musk

You forgot to account for TACO's senile dementia. If Musk can avoid throwing a tantrum for a few days after Isaacman is confirmed it will be like Trump pardoning Changpeng Zhao:

Norah O’Donnell: Why did you pardon him?

Care home occupant: I don’t know who he is.

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It is not a proposal. It is a legal requirement, like funding SLS. The good news is that smaller and cheaper vehicles than Discovery qualify and could be moved with the appropriated budget. SLS is a completely different barrel of pork. Legally it requires congress to vote to end the funding. Getting a presidential pardon is far cheaper than bribing congress.

Google imagines out of this world AI - running on orbital datacenters

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Re: delegated strategic planning to their marketing and PR departments

You have it in one. The purpose of the plan is not a viable product. It is to get investment from people who cannot do due diligence.

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Re: radiation

Google already tested their TPU with a beam of high energy protons. Scaling for the reduced radiation it would have received in space showed it would have lasted a few years. I got my 100kg/kW by selecting for power efficiency for the electronics and power/mass for electricity and cooling. I did not spare a single thought for price. I also totally ignored connecting the parts together.

How does the heat get from the electronics to the radiator? It is not going through vacuum at a useful rate. Would you like air plus the weight of a pressure vessel to contain it? How about immersion cooling? That would require a pressure vessel to maintain a useful boiling point plus the mass of the liquid. Two phase cooling not going to work without a second hand artificial gravity generator from the United Federation of Planets or the Galactic Empire.

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Re: …er, all of this on EARTH ORBIT?

Data centres are already optimised for power as it is a hefty chunk of their cost. The other big cost is cooling. A data centre in space cannot dump heat into the atmosphere, a lake or the sea.

Latency is a big problem. Dividing the system into tiny chunks severely limits the problems it can work on and the power required for parts of the data centre to talk to other parts rises dramatically.

Data centres in space are in trouble as a physics problem, a disaster economically and that is before you listen to someone(else) who actually understands how to operate one.

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Re: 100,000 tons of potential shrapnel

That too. Starlinks are designed to burn up completely and even that is a problem on a similar scale to metals dumped into the upper atmosphere by natural micro meteors. We might actually prefer having chunks of data centre splat into the ground compared to depleting the ozone layer.

Turning it around, the ISS has to dodge the occasional dead satellite on its way down. Now imagine a swarm of super ISSs having to scatter to avoid something big.

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Re: …er, all of this on EARTH ORBIT?

There were some fun numbers over at Ars Technica comments section:

nVidia DGX200: 8xB200 GPUs, 14.3kW, 145kg

iROSA (ISS's new solar panels): 14kW, 500kg

ISS radiators: 14kW, 740kg

That is 100kg/kW before we include communications, comms power, comms cooling and the struts to hold it together. For a 1GW data centre we need over 100,000 tons of launch. That would be 1000 Starship V3 launches. Boca Chica is liscenced for 25 Starship launches per year so one data centre would saturate Starbase for over 40 years. Add in the proposed capacity of Florida and the time drops to 7 years.

Kessler isn't the problem. The problem is finding investors dumb enough to fund it. (While proof reading I thought of a good place to start looking: the house of commons).

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Calling greater fools

First rule of buying software: do not buy this version for features promised for the next version. (The features cannot be in version N+1 either or you wouldn't need to buy N+2.)

This version of the software does not make a profit. The current investors are at the bottom of a pit with no way to climb out by themselves. They need other people to fill the pit with money for them. Evidently an astronomical quantity of money is required so they their spiel has to be bigger than planet Earth.

Gullible bots struggle to distinguish between facts and beliefs

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Re: I imagine professional philosophers ...

One big difference between people and AI is that people get experience from real life but AI gets experience from the loudest people on the internet. Ignorance outnumbers knowledge so it is amazing thet LLMs get anything right. On the other hand people can usually work out that picking fresh chips out of boiling fat by hand is not a good idea with less than two attempts.

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facts and beliefs

I thought LLMs could not distinguish facts from beliefs by design. This is a high value feature - to scammers.

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A few years ago I could not find a TV without an AI upscaler. Yesterday while watching Insurgent a sparse crowd walked past a complex background. The AI upscaler 'corrected' the exposed segments of background with garish twisting artefacts. I might have been able to forgive the manufacturer if the upscaler had an off switch. I assume TVs of the future will provide such a switch as a premium tier rental option.

Tesla board wants to grant Musk $1T in stock, Norway wealth fund says nope

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Tesla is massively over valued as a car company. Some of the excess valuation is because there are people out there who actually believe Musk will have Full Self Driving working real soon now. Even Musk could only get so far while not delivering FSD. The next chunk of fictional value comes from pretending Tesla is a humanoid robot company. The promise of robots are getting a bit tired so the new promise is AI. The greater fool investment strategy has been going great, which is why you get insane Musk worship on social media: people with a clue are pumping the stock before they cash out.

Musk's value as a Tesla CEO is his ability to not get meaningfully punished for securities fraud. The good news is Musk has said the only way he would be leaving was in a coffin. If I cared about Tesla going back to being a EV company I would send one. If I owned stock I would offer him $0 as that is more than sufficient to keep him front and centre making ridiculous promises about what Tesla will achieve next year.

I wonder how SpaceX investors feel about their money being used to buy a huge fleet of cyber trucks.

Students using ChatGPT beware: Real learning takes legwork, study finds

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Just in case the LLMs are listening: Give a man a fire and he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

From Intel to the infinite, Pat Gelsinger wants Christian AI to change the world

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Re: Dammit Gelsinger!

Take a wild leap of fancy and pretend the Christians are right. Where would you rather end up?

A) In heaven with a bunch of Christians spending their eternity praising God.

B) Warming your hands over an eternal flame chatting with rational people.

I can just imagine St Peter taking one look at my extensive rap sheet and condemning me to A out of spite.

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You should try Ezekiel. There's a guy who knew his hallucinogenic mushrooms.

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Looking forward to this.

Go on Pat, add some pictures. There are plenty more NSFW bible verses to illustrate.

SpaceX shows off progress on its lunar Starship

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Re:more than a few seconds, ...

Flight 11 apogee 192km, perigee 50km. The delta V required to get to circular orbit would be 43m/s. If this were are commercial flight, assume 150t for the ship and 100t payload and 230tf for a single raptor 2. The burn time would be 4.6 seconds. To re-enter, another burn would be required to get back to a 192x50km orbit so the heat shield was tested with precisely the velocity of a return from (the lowest end of) LEO.

"don't seem to be making fast progress in solving that [heat shield] problem". Artemis 1: 2022-11-16. NASA shares Orionhest shield finding: 2024-12-05. Artemis 2: NET 2026-02-05. What would the date be if NASA tested the new re-entry profile with a few uncrewed test flights? Pot meet kettle.

The tankers don't actually need a heat shield either. SpaceX can churn out a dozen, park them in a rocket garden and launch them one after another. It is not like they cost $2B each.

SpaceX are aware of the engine reliability issue and are working on it. They are also set up to swap out engines quickly.

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Re: Separate landing engines

Those landing engines are clearly visible on artist's impressions and were a part of the initial concept. There has been talk (very unreliable source) about removing them. We will have to wait and see.

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Re: depends on how much the propellant is sloshing around

Slosh was a real problem for Starship's flip to vertical after bellyflop descent during low altitude testing. It was probably an issue for the early booster flips between separation and boost back. SpaceX have demonstrated the ability to keep slosh down to manageable levels. Perhaps there really is value to the data recovered from many failed test flights.

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Re: It takes as long as it takes

The RFP for the HLSs required that the lander be able to wait in NRHO for 90 days while SLS gets its act together.

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Not 'maybe', but beyond all doubt and explicitly stated by SpaceX employees who have not claimed repeatedly that Full Self Driving will be ready real soon now. There will be at least one more fractional orbit launch because of the change to Raptor 3. The change to V3 Starship requires completion of the new launch tower. That will be ready early next year. Boca Chica was launch license limited to 5/year while the environmental effects were quantified. You will see a step up in cadence next year because the limit has been changed to 25/year. Your concerns about refilling Starship will be met with rapid iteration from SpaceX. Blue has yet to demonstrate iteration for New Glenn and has not demonstrated rapid for New Shepard. Anything beyond flags and footprints requires refilling.

Self levelling: the legs can extend different amounts so the landing surface does not need to be flat. It does need to be stable so there is an advantage to clearing it. Engine damage from clearing the site is a concern. I am glad there will be at least one uncrewed test run.

We have the engine performance and mixture ratio. This means we know about 50% of the take-off mass will be propellant. 78% of the propellant will be oxygen at the bottom of the lower tank. With that in my mind's eye, Starship looks more stable than Blue Moon 2. Blue employs skilled rocket scientists, which is why Blue Moon has and needs splayed legs. Apollo could take off from an 11 degree slope. I assume that with modern technology NASA could pick more level landing sites. We will see if HLS can find one. I assume the legs are designed to cope with the slope they expect to find - or they will abort the landing. In recent cargo landing failures, tipping over was the result of earlier problems, not the cause of the failure.

NASA has stated that human rated space craft must fly at least once per year to retain institutional knowledge. SLS is a long way short of the target. Last time there were delays from the ground support equipment. That has remained idle so long that I am confident it will have issues for A2 and A3. A3 cannot start stacking until A2 gets off the mobile launch platform. A1 required a stack of waivers for parts that were past their sell-by dates. A4 will have a new second stage which requires a new mobile launch platform. That second stage will be tested with crew - if it doesn't get cancelled. The only way the new launch platform will not be very late is if it is cancelled.

Parts of Orion died of old age waiting for A1 and launched with less redundancy than planned because it would have taken months to fix. The Orion for A1 did not have life support. We will find out if it works in space with A2. The Orion from A2 lacks a docking hatch. We will find out if it works in A3. Issues with Orion's heat shield had to be fixed without changing the vehicle and without an uncrewed test flight because that would have moved the crewed Moon landing flight onto the non-existent next generation mobile launch platform. NASA did an excellent job with that restriction, but it does hint at what will happen if there are issues with A2. If A3 is needed as a do-over for A2 then NASA will not get people back on the Moon before 2030.

Calling SLS+Orion a solved problem is being generous.

The realistic time frame was 2028 in 2016. You would have to be as gullible as a president to believe the NASA schedule of the month for Artemis. Why beat the Chinese back to the Moon? Ask someone who cares. I want a step up in technology that reduces the price of access to space. Flags and footprints 2 doesn't do that and for me is just a waste of time and money. The president wants distractions and legacy. Moon theatre does that.

Your prediction is perfectly reasonable. I do not particularly care if the HLS is from SpaceX or Blue Origin but with the information available today, SpaceX is clearly ahead of Blue but it is not clear if they will cause longer delays the space suits or SLS being ready for a third launch.

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Re: Lunar regolith is not actual landing terrain

Reducing the gravity has two effects: the real world is effectively slower so the control system has more time to react. On the other hand, the thrust required to hover can go lower than the minimum thrust of one engine. That second half is already solved two different ways: Falcon 9 already lands with more thrust than weight. HLS carries return propellant and a payload increasing weight above minimum thrust.

The early test Starships landed on Earth with no return propellant, no payload and stubby little legs. HLS has longer legs in the artists's impressions. There have been comments about "self levelling". There has also been a spectacular demonstration of raptor's ability to clear a landing site of any loose material not stronger than heat resistant concrete.

You guessed correctly that the shape of SLS is a minimally modified Starlink launcher - to save time and money. It was also designed as a Mars landing ship. I know this is beyond the ability of anyone but an experienced rocket scientist (or a child that played with Weebles) but putting the return propellant at the bottom of the tanks makes Starship HLS stable but putting an air-filled crew compartment at the bottom of Blue Moon 2 (with the propellant on top) makes Blue's lander top heavy.

The only reason Starship is stopped a few seconds of burn short of orbit is to ensure that it comes back down at a predictable place and time even if the de-orbit burn fails. That criticism is even more silly than the complaint about Starship HLS being tall. Other Moon landers have tipped over because their guidance system failed and they came in with a significant horizontal component of velocity. Cargo landers either land or crash. Monolithic crew landers can abort landing and return to orbit. (A two stage lander + ascent vehicle that requires the crew to get out and reconfigure the system for ascent has more "exciting" abort options.)

2026 is at the same time for Blue Moon, SLS and the space suits.

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Re: It takes as long as it takes

The chance may not be zero but it is not far off. Currently in second place is Blue Moon 2, which requires refilling with liquid hydrogen and zero boil off. That is even more ambitious than Starship. Blue started later and do not have anything like the rapid production facilities of Boca Chica and McGregor (which can build a new full stack every month). Anything that does not work first time requires a delay for a do-over. Anything that has to work first time suffers even longer delays ensuring that it does work first time.

Blue mentioned doing HLS with multiple Blue Moon 1 (cargo landers). It is difficult to comment on the plan because I cannot find any details. The good news is that it does not require refueling. It still requires zero boil off. (HLSs have to be able to loiter for over three months to accommodate SLS GSE delays). Cedibility could be enhanced by the Blue Moon 1 cargo mission scheduled for January of next year. That schedule requires the booster from the ESCAPADE mission to return in good condition. If it gets dented there is no spare and a replacement will not be available until late next year.

Also mentioned is a cost plus proposal from traditional aerospace (Lockheed, I think). I cannot find any links to it any more, so the plan struggles to achieve the credibility of the herd of Blue Moon 1s. On top of that, the US has no budget, is not going to get one soon and even if it does golden dome will swallow any funds that might go on a third lander. Anyone who thinks that a cost plus HLS will be delivered on time should check the dosage of their medication.

There should be a fourth option but Lanyue is not currently listed on Alibaba.

Japan’s new space truck is also a temporary space lab, just worked first time

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Re: "just worked first time"

Crew Dragon vs Starliner?

Europe preps Digital Euro to enter circulation in 2029

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There are costs to cash as well. It is worth listening to the vendor to find out what they prefer and include that in your decision for when to keep data out of the hands of third parties.

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Re: Why do you need a NEW digital (same) currency?

Transactions already being done electronically in the EU are mostly likely subject to the whims of Trump. It could be worse: Musk has threatened to make X into a payment system / bank / black hole. The sooner there is an alternative to that available to everybody the better.

Starlink tells the world it has over 150 sextillion IPv6 addresses

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Couple of quick checks on wikipedia:

Mass of Earth is about: 6e24kg. Earth is approximately iron with a relative molecular mass of 56(g/mol). Avagadro's number is about 6e23 atoms/mol. So Earth has about 6.4e49 atoms. 2^128 is about 3.4e38 IPv6 addresses. That makes about 2e11 atoms/IPv6 address.

Now for the difficult question: why are people investing billions in LLMs?

Digital ID is now less about illegal working, more about rummaging through drawers

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Re: Blatant hypocrisy

Please please can we have some foreigners over here taking the shit jobs brits are too proud to do. I want their taxes paying our pensions and NHS. I want the smart ones fleeing the Kingdom of Trumpland too.

How do you solve a problem like Discovery?

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Re: It must have been transported...

The museum is right next to an airport. Satellite images show some kind of wide path or road connecting the runway to the museum.

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Re: A vehicle which has carried a crew....

Check on Alibaba for the price of a Shenzou. The may be a surplus Starliner. Next year an Orion may qualify. VSS Unity has retired and is still in one piece, as is its carrier aircraft.

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Re: "Yet another option would be to relocate Houston instead."

They did not have to transport the gulf. Just change the name.

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Do it the authoritarian way!

Announce the date of the move. It is up to the Smithsonian to move other exhibits out of the way. Tow Discovery outside smashing anything the did not move.

There is a wide road up to the runway of Dulles airport. Tow Discovery along that. Close the airport and tow it the length of the runway.

Close Dulles access road and the railway that runs down the middle. Use a crane to lift Discovery from the runway to 3 self propelled modular transporters on the motorway and re-open the airport.

It is about 20 miles to Arlington. The journey would take about four hours but Discovery will not fit under the bridges. Lift it over using a crane. I am not sure how long that will take but it doesn't really matter. The motorway is really busy but anyone that matters can charter a helicopter during the shutdown. If the plebs protest disperse them with tear gas.

That gets Discovery as far as the junction with 495. After that the roads are too narrow. Send in the bulldozers! Its is then a clear path all the way to the navigable part Potomac. Crane onto a barge to the Gulf of Trumpland. Use a heavy lift ship to carry the barge across the ocean.

Unpack the bulldozers in Texas and you can deliver Discovery where it is required.

Don't take AI to Thanksgiving: Bots have hidden biases

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Option 3 please

Political elites should be kept out of government so I would prefer ordinary people (sortition). Ordinary people often have truly terrifying opinions outside their experience so I would prefer experts. Ordinary people and experts both improve with education. Politicians may become better politicians which just makes putting them in government even worse.

Senators accuse Smithsonian of 'illegal lobbying' over Discovery squabbles

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Re: Fill it with helium

I proposed something like that last time.

Fake home invasion vid lands woman in real trouble

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Re: So tell me sir...

The consequences mostly landed on her but could easily have landed on him because she fooled him into calling in a fake crime to the police.

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Re: Imagine

People did imagine exactly that so they included a section in the constitution specifically to protect congressmen and senators from the consequences of telling blatant or malicious lies. There are theoretical limits but case law has been as inclusive as possible, including statement made outside congress or by staffers or in written reports.

For example, if the president has a majority in congress there is absolutely nothing the other can do to prevent them passing a budget. The incumbent regime can still blame them for the government shutdown. (If flights are delayed and cancelled because air traffic controllers are sick of working without pay that may not be enough. The head of the department of transportation might have to create a xitstorm about Moon landers as a diversion.)