* Posts by Avon B7

96 publicly visible posts • joined 25 Apr 2023

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Huawei's farewell to Android isn't a marketing move, it's chess

Avon B7

Re: An article of two halves

Absolutely, and this is already underway. Huawei alone was pumping 11 billion US dollars, annually, into US semi conductor interests. At the same time it wasn't developing its own solutions.

Those revenues from Huawei were part of the pie that was feeding future R&D projects. That has now gone (over 50 billion dollars so far) and as if that weren't enough, now Huawei (and the rest of China) is pumping money into replicating currently US dominated areas (and having success).

The upshot is lost revenues and seeing new competitors spew out of China to take even more revenues away. Also the need to plough government funds into chip production (something the US criticised China for for years in spite of being a completely normal process).

Having weaponised technology, no sane person would run solely with US options if alternatives exist. That day will (has) come thanks to US policy.

Openly saying they want to destroy a company opens up a can of worms of a different nature but those words mostly come from bumbling old senators or hawks blinded by their hate of China.

And if they don't exist, some will try to create them, which is precisely why the EU processor initiative was born. To give just one example.

A lot of pieces to the puzzle remain but they are all on their way. HarmonyOS NEXT (and EulerOS) are just two, and will be developed at lightning speed by modern standards simply because the US forced them to go it alone.

Avon B7

Re: An article of two halves

Bankrolled? You mean like the Chips Act in the US?

No. Huawei does get some subsidies. It does get some loans. It does get stimulus packages.

They even produced a video a couple of years ago debunking a lot of the 'government support' claims.

Basically, it works like any other business in any other country. The US included.

What has happened in terms of 'government support' of late is that the major carriers have opted for Huawei ICT gear in detriment to foreign gear. Hardly surprising given what has happened with some governments around the world.

In any event, that help amounts to money - not knowhow.

What Huawei has pulled off (in record time) is effectively the impossible. It has weathered a government onslaught designed to destroy it. It has doubled down on R&D. It has successfully moved into new business areas. It has gained in self sufficiency. It has de-Americanised thousands of boards and components. In its own words it is 'business as usual' (albeit a new 'usual').

Avon B7

I think one of the key factors here is the use of 'mobile services' from gatekeepers hooking into apps to make them unusable on other platforms.

One solution could be requiring gatekeepers to get their tentacles out of apps.

Another would be for them to provide services support on other platforms. In essence to make a solution like GBox but certified and supplied by Google.

I can already run Huawei Mobile Services on my Android phone for some Huawei functionality (including Huawei ID and making my phone a trusted device). The problem is that it isn't full support.

In gatekeeper terms, this is a huge barrier to platform hopping.

Imagine a world where an iPhone user could pick up a Samsung phone and have an Apple supported 'Apple Mobile Services' platform run on it through an Apple ID and access to Apple services.

Currently GMS is banned from Huawei devices which is a purely unilateral political move.

Legislation - requiring - availability would leave Google with two options: pull out of a market or breach sanctions. In such a case a licence would quickly be issued for Google to certify use on Huawei phones.

From then on, users would be able to choose their preferred platforms (hardware and software) and mix and match as needed.

Avon B7

An article of two halves

First half was a little off point on the facts and what lies behind them.

The US, seeing Huawei (and China) about to overtake it on technology (especially 5G and its industrial ramifications) set its sights on choking China and destroying Huawei. Both 'choke' and 'destroy' were the words used.

Huawei suddenly found itself having to react to seemingly insurmountable problems across the board.

Like Gromit on that train, laying the tracks in front of him at lightning speed to avoid it derailing.

They have pulled off the impossible. In five very short years they have done what it took Apple and Google took fifteen to achieve and gone beyond even that.

They wrote their own ERP system, MetaERP. That alone was a gargantuan undertaking. And even 'gargantuan' is an understatement.

They de-Americanized over 14,000 components and set about getting HarmonyOS and EulerOS into the hands of consumers and industry players.

They entered the automobile sector and have done the impossible there too. The GOD network putting them on the map with their self-driving goals.

They have pumped up their cloud business and not lost sight of their ICT infrastructure business either.

In 2018 they announced their AI plans and although they took the biggest hit in terms of advancement, new products are coming to market.

They have just opened a gigantic R&D Centre for semiconductor research and are still one of the world's top patent filers.

HarmonyOS specifically, is more than what has gone before. You only have to sit through the three hour HDC keynote to see where they want to go with it. Pay special attention to the references to siloes because it seems that companies like Apple are implementing ideas from HarmonyOS at each WWDC. The question is whether they are punching holes in those siloes (kludging it) or reworking the foundation of iOS. HarmonyOS was designed to be distributed. iOS was not. Apple has begun implementing years old Huawei features in recent years.

Apple cannot touch Huawei in terms of ecosystem. HomeKit was going nowhere and needed Thread/Matter to even remain relevant.

Now, cars play a part in that ecosystem with car to home TV video conferencing as well as car to car video conferencing.

Nearlink is a reality along with devices starting to support it.

All in five years. I would never bet against them because they simply have no option but to continue. They have to make it work.

The work on applied research and every single aspect of chip manufacturing will move as fast as it can. There are unknowns here but, like I said, I wouldn't rule out progress. Huawei has a habit of throwing thousands of scientists at hard problems and often gets results (polar codes for example). This time it isn't just Huawei and its investments in other companies. It is hundreds of universities and startups looking to solve the same problems.

ASML is now speaking its mind and pushing the Dutch government to cater to its own needs. Top Korean politicians have made similar comments.

With BRICS+ and Africa and South America there and open for business along with Asia itself I say things even look positive.

The US chose to weaponise technology. You only get to do that once and that ship sailed five years ago.

Congress to Commerce: Sanction more Chinese chip firms to stop Huawei's evasion

Avon B7

Oh dear!

Paranoia meets hysteria.

Huawei makes divorce from Android official with HarmonyOS NEXT launch

Avon B7

Re: Is it still a Fake?

That article had a few very concerning flaws and was basically a hit job.

I posted in the comments under the article pointing some out, especially that HarmonyOS was multi kernel, and as such, was many things to many devices. Only phones and tablets had anything to do with Android. Watches, routers, TVs were running pure HarmonyOS.

Also, there were considerable changes made (with regards to Android) on phones and tablets. The entire networking stack was re-written for example to enable Huawei's ultra fast device connection capabilities and improve stability.

As an aside, some reports say connection speeds are even faster now on HarmonyOS NEXT with file transfer speeds up to twice as fast as iOS.

TSMC blows whistle on potential sanctions-busting shenanigans from Huawei

Avon B7

Re: .. to clarify

The 910 was released in 2019 but the 910B was released in 2022. The 910C is supposedly shipping to limited customers now.

Avon B7

A devil in the details?

It seems that TSMC has made statement and denied the initial claims made by The Information.

So who knows what the true situation is. I suppose somewhere between true and false might be the best place to look.

Personally I find it difficult to believe the story 'as is' but there is a mature 'grey' market through which to get certain products. I just don't see a chip design getting through the screening process.

On the other hand Tech Insights is in the business of looking deep into finished products so I find it difficult brush them off as unreliable.

We'll have to wait a little longer but if the Commerce Department thinks it's Fish On! they will definitely make a song and dance of it.

Looking forward to seeing a TSMC executive put on house arrest and waiting extradition! LOL /s

Huawei to dump Windows for PCs in favor of its own HarmonyOS

Avon B7

Re: Huawei and HarmonyOS

Neither HarmonyOS NEXT nor HarmonyOS for PCs have been released yet.

HarmonyOS NEXT is available to registered developers and is in Beta. Release is scheduled for Q4. At first, a limited range of devices will be supported with a wider roll out to older devices coming later. Just like with every HarmonyOS release.

Avon B7

Re: Huawei and HarmonyOS

Well, if you were along for the ride since 2019 when HarmonyOS was first officially presented there was a lot to tout in terms of utility, and since then all the pieces have been developing and falling into place.

It's not fully there yet but obviously they are trying hard and yes, there is an email service and client. As for a familiar browser, that depends on what you mean by familiar. Huawei Browser is certainly familiar to people in China and that's a huge market. There is a native office suite too.

Utility-wise, it is a pretty good stab at just that with the idea of distributed services, distributed file systems, distributed authentication etc. The idea being that a device can pool its hardware features as services to other devices, seamlessly, quickly and in a stable fashion. Perfect for IoT.

For HarmonyOS NEXT, Huawei said it needed 5,000 native key apps to cover 90% of key user needs at launch. Today it announced that 10,000 are ready and will cover 99.9% of their requirements.

This year HarmonyOS overtook iOS in China.

Huawei also said this week that it has developed HarmonyOS to its current state in what took Apple and Google 17 years to achieve.

There is still a lot of work (and polish) to be done but it seems to be shaping up nicely. Even going places where Apple and Google still haven't: Car integration at a deep level.

The kernel has the highest security certifications of any consumer device kernel if I'm not mistaken but I haven't dug into that.

Avon B7

Re: "HarmonyOS reportedly lacks support from significant software vendors"

The Eclipse/Open Atom collaboration, IIRC, pertains to 'OpenHarmony' (the open source version of HarmonyOS) which forms the base of many different operating systems (many for specialised use cases). For example Eclipse Foundation is working on OniroOS which uses OpenHarmony.

Avon B7

Re: 'its own'

HarmonyOS from the outset was a multi-kernel system.

Only phones and tablets had anything to do Android/Linux so the rest was 'its own'. Routers, wearables, TVs...

Major HarmonyOS changes were still present in the Android based systems. I believe the entire network stack was taken from 'pure' HarmonyOS in order to improve connectivity, speed of connection and stability. And IIRC one of the current Android file system options was also created at Huawei.

Now the Android/Linux part is being phased out on Chinese phones and tablets with HarmonyOS NEXT.

Huawei lays final bricks of billion-dollar Shanghai R&D complex

Avon B7

Percentages

"Should Huawei fail to make much headway into its own cutting-edge chipmaking tools, it could mean China will continue to lag behind Western rivals, with one study predicting China will make just two percent of the world's advanced chips in 2024, compared to the US's 28 percent"

Last time I checked (a few years ago) those 'cutting edge' chips made up 2% of total world output. The other 98% is what made the world go round.

I wouldn't bet against Huawei now that they've been forced to do it themselves.

US commerce department yanks back Huawei export licenses

Avon B7

Time to ban Chinese food!

National Security! Who knows if it's MSG or something else in there?

Better safe than sorry and Burgers need protecting!

Huawei's woes really were just a flesh wound – profits just soared 564 percent

Avon B7

Re: Copying CISCO verbatim, including typos.

No. Source code is quite literally everything. You have had to go back 20 years to dig this up. Two decades ago isn't representative of today.

That's why the US has had to re-open previously settled civil cases against Huawei. Despite sting operations, raids and other efforts, it drew a blank.

Anyway if you dig too deeply in CISCO code aren't you more likely to come across NSA code? Wink, wink. Or is that ancient history too?

Teardown confirms Huawei's Pura 70 contains SMIC 7nm process node

Avon B7

Re: This is not sustainable for them

With China it's probably better to avoid saying what they can't do because in 2019 people said they would take a decade or more to hit 7nm and they got there last year. Just two years after hitting 14nm. This year supposedly they will do 5nm.

Tjen people said that quality was low and so they can't produce in volume. Mate 60 etc. Obviously that was totally wrong and the Pura series is set to increase volume over the Mate 60.

Tjat the Pura series uses a variant of last year's chip is no surprise. It's always been that way. Even when using Qualcomm chips.

I think it's important to try and imagine what isn't completely visible right now. The common sense stuff.

Huawei committed to smartphones. Qualcomm reported last year that it would see no further 'material revenue' from Huawei. Obviously they felt they had a viable roadmap. We just don't know what it is right now, but the simple fact that these situations are known, leads one to believe that they have enough in the pipe to be competitive. It is just a question of waiting it out and the chances of that being years away are slim so my guess is we'll see regular advances in all areas of achieving self sufficiency.

Huawei wants to take homegrown HarmonyOS phone platform worldwide

Avon B7

Re: I can't help but think I already know how this story will end ....

The charges were unjust. The information the US says was hidden was actually contained on a slide within the now infamous PPT which basically formed the essence of the accusation. The thing is, that slide was deliberately excluded from the extradition request and the US was pushing hard to keep it out of the proceedings.

Not only that. The US admitted that HSBC employees were very well informed of the situation just that they weren't considered 'senior' enough.

Of course, HSBC had already signed off on a plea deal from its side even though the other time it got caught it only received a fine while for Meng they were pushing for a prison sentence.

And not only that. There was a shocking and sudden lack of memory on show from Canadian officials when valid doubts were raised on how things were done on the night of her detention.

Avon B7

Re: Disappointing

Actually there is the open source version of HarmonyOS which is already being worked on as the base of numerous projects (I wonder if the Oniro Project/Platform is still moving forward), including industrial and consumer IoT. Huawei's HiSilicon division is continuing to roll out IoT silicon along with audio/video/surveillance chipsets.

And HarmonyOS is the 'consumer' facing OS if you like. On the enterprise side they also have EulerOS.

Avon B7

Re: Difficult but not impossible

Two Honor phones. One prior to the Honor spin off. The other post spin off so both have GMS. The post spin off phone has HMS too.

A 'pure' HarmonyOS tablet plus numerous wearables, routers, earbuds, headphones etc running HarmonyOS.

The iOS side of things is iPhone/iPad (the wife)m

Avon B7

Re: I'd try it

The major move away is HarmonyOS NEXT. That is what the article is partly about.

That version completely removes the Android compatibility layer. Hence the push for native apps. It should arrive later this year.

Even current HarmonyOS systems with Android compatibility have seen one major upgrade. The entire networking stack was rebuilt to allow for a more robust and fast connection of devices.

HarmonyOS is a mult-kernel system but a HarmonyOS kernel is coming at some point.

LiteOS kernel was the base of some HarmonyOS devices. Especially the early ones although it was used on other devices prior to that. In fact, the security elements of HarmonyOS were first tested within LiteOS.

Avon B7

Difficult but not impossible

I'm using EMUI/Android, Android, iOS and HarmonyOS at the moment in Europe.

For HarmonyOS to take root here Huawei needs bring more ecosystem devices over and showcase them. Especially things like its door locks, family storage solutions and TVs. And get HarmonyOS on its partnered cars over here too. And have NearLink glue the wireless part together.

Away from pure HarmonyOS phones, it needs to really beef up HMS cloud options for GMS and iOS based phones.

Although no one wants to admit it, MagicOS seems to be HarmonyOS in sheep's clothing so there is definitely a wedge there as Honor phones also run GMS (at least at the moment).

It's very doable but will require commitment and lots of marketing and that should start with branding and starting to call out the accusations and ask for proof.

Huawei's latest flagship smartphone contains no world-shaking silicon surprises

Avon B7

Re: Shooting ourselves in the foot

98% of the world's chip needs are on older, more mature nodes. It's important to remember that.

For 'local' chip production in the EU and the US, non-EU/US companies are key.

Competition is great but it is very unlikely to lead to lower prices if the players involved each have a smaller market to sell to.

Unable to compete on a world stage, the US (Trump) decided to try and destroy the playing field.

The UK was 'ordered' to stop using Huawei gear by the US. When it pushed back (economic and technological reasons) the US decided to try and cripple Huawei through other means (extraterritorial sanctions), forcing the UK to conclude that Huawei would be incapable of satisfying its hardware requirements going forward.

The Dutch were pressured to apply export restrictions on ASML.

Now an entirely new industry is being built out to quite literally replace each and every US element in the chip design and fabrication process.

That will mean a power shift of epic proportions as China moves to using local producers. China is one of the world's top chip consumer markets.

That's competition that the US clearly won't like but China already has the Digital Silk Road and BRICS+ to play to, plus its gigantic internal market.

If I were a sovereign state company suffering from unilaterally imposed extraterritorial sanctions I would be redesigning my products to eradicate all technologies that make them susceptible to foreign influence.

Huawei is well on the way to doing that, along with hundreds of Chinese companies.

At some point they will have the means to offer companies like ASML technological solutions which enable it to replace US technologies which currently have no alternatives.

That would mean more competition.

US companies need revenues to invest in R&D. Cutting them off from China reduces those revenues.

Not allowing certain US scientists and engineers to work for Chinese companies (sanctions again) puts top US talent in China out of a job while providing solutions for local and non-US talent to push through. They are also receiving far higher saleries.

Making chips in the US makes them more expensive which isn't good for competition.

South Korea is also pushing back against the notion of sanctions as a solution. Just as have Wennink (ASML), Huang (Nvidia) and many others (ironically including representatives of over a 1,000 US companies). Japan is probably not happy either.

The Pentagon actually stepped in to temporarily halt one of Trump's executive orders against Huawei under 'national security' issues as they saw it as damaging to US interests. It was temporary but just goes to show how high the risks are.

Avon B7

Re: Shooting ourselves in the foot

Shooting themselves in the head. Truth be told.

If all Chinese companies are supposedly puppets for the CCP, it never made any sense to single out Huawei's handset business in the US. That was protection ism pure and simple.

Tim Cook had a few visits to the White House and 'private' conversations with Trump. I wonder what went down there. Huawei taking an everincreasing chunk out of the world's handset pie will definitely have cropped up.

Then there was China as a technological rival, fast approaching and potentially knocking a hole in US hegemony. And there again Huawei was a national champion.

To top things off the US was caught short on ICT advances and the promise of 5G. Again, Huawei was leading that charge.

The collective intelligence of US powers (perhaps the equivalent of half a peanut) then sprang into action with literally no thought for the future.

Unable to keep a mental record of his thought process, Trump began tweeting his every move to the world. William Barr basically stood in front of the US administration and Huawei should be destroyed and the rest is history.

They opened up the 'national security' umbrella and quite literally put everything they could under it.

It would take them decades to move forward on chip manufacturing. The opposite has been true. They took just two years to hit 7nm and what really spooked the US was that it had no 7nm capacity of its own. Worse was that if China were to shift ALL of its production capacity to 7mm, it would produce more than Samsung and TSMC - combined. Now the rumours are for China to hit 5nm, this year.

Well done Trump! (and Biden).

US wants ASML to stop servicing China-owned chip equipment

Avon B7

More Madness

Trying to strong arm ASML (via the Dutch government) into walking back on signed maintenance contracts would possibly lead China to use its anti-sanctions legislation which would put ASML and the Dutch government into a very, very delicate situation.

I think they have never used it before.

The EU has similar legislation but only used it once (against US sanctions no less).

Sanctions (imposed unilaterally and without consultation) were always an executive overreach and bound to fail from the get go.

It is just a question of time before they rebound on US semi-conductor interests with a vengeance.

The financial consequences were also there from day one through lost revenues and new Chinese competitors being spawned across the semiconductor board.

Trump's sole consideration was 'not on my watch', so it will be hugely ironic if he wins another term during which Huawei progresses beyond the impact of his very own original sanctions and makes advances on technology while avoiding US technology interests completely in the process.

Nothing new is happening here with regards to chip fabrication developments . Huawei began investing in chip self sufficiency in 2019 through its Hubble investment arm, investing in over 40 strategic chip making/design companies. It has expanded on those efforts ever since and now the Chinese government has upped its game (which already had grand goals).

It also saw the start of a 'de-Americanisation' program, which by last year, had seen them re-design over 14,000 components and boards. It is very likely that many non-US interests are also on a mission to do the same to free themselves of the shackles of unilaterally imposed sanctions after the fact. Just like these rumoured efforts being applied to ASML.

Huawei completed its gigantic MetaERP initiative too.

R&D hasn't suffered (the opposite is true) and in ICT they remain stronger than Nokia and Ericsson - combined. They successfully diverged into the automotive sector and their cloud and storage intentions are clear - and growing. The Digital Silk Road will surely provide them with almost unlimited access to developing markets and the Global South already represents 80% of the world's population. BRICS+ will be an issue for the G7.

They are cooking up a huge ration of Humble Pie for the US to gorge on.

By then though, the Hawks will be long gone or incapable of remembering why they did what they did. Their names (Trump, Pence, Barr, Biden, Yellen, Cotton, Pompeo etc...) will be remembered though, for a short-sightedness that will be the fodder of think-tanks long into the future.

And then there is HarmonyOS and EulerOS too.

It was madness when it all started and it is madness today. The only difference is that China is five years closer to reaching its goals.

Huawei prepares to split from Android on consumer devices with HarmonyOS Next

Avon B7

It's far from hacky. It's a simple option which the user can choose. The warnings are there.

Is it the best solution? No.

A native app would be the best solution but not offering to do the searching for the user wouldn't make much sense either.

If the app isn't available natively, why not link to the non-native version and save the user the effort?

What point would it serve leaving the user in the dark?

The key here is informing the user that the app can be reached but only from outside the AppGallery. As long as that requirement is fulfilled (and it is) everything is clear.

The move to HarmonyOSNEXT will mean only native apps will run (Android app compatibility will be lost) so the option won't be present at some point during the year on those systems.

Avon B7

Re: Outside of China, is there a market for another smartphone ecosystem?

Business is business. If it doesn't make economic sense to support a third system you are correct in not offering that option.

However, Huawei is promoting (and in some cases offering financial incentives) the idea of supporting Chinese app developers outside China and 'rest of the world' developers in China, with support structures like localisation.

But at the end of the day if your particular solution doesn't work out as 'doable' because of the resources required, that is understandable.

Avon B7

AppGallery is an app store.

It can offer to install apps from outside the AppGallery but it notifies you of the fact.

In the case of Spotify, which isn't available natively on AppGallery, it tells you that it is from AppParks. A third party source.

You are free from there to do as you see fit. Spotify requiring GMS can hardly be deemed a problem of AppGallery and HarmonyOS NEXT will not even give you the convenience option of installing and then requiring something like Gbox

What is irritating about AppGallery is that if you are running both GMS and HMS natively it will offer to update native apps that it didn't originally install.

For example my banking app is available natively on both AppGallery and Play Store. It was originally installed by Play Store but if an update reaches AppGallery first, it will offer to update it. I can ignore that of course.

I think app stores should only update the apps that were originally installed by them.

Avon B7

Re: Non-Linux kernel

While I'm not sure of the specifics here, LiteOS was used on Huawei wearables and it definitely housed the security elements of HarmonyOS prior to its official release.

Avon B7

Re: Outside of China, is there a market for another smartphone ecosystem?

My house has all three (iOS, HarmonyOS and Android).

Two mesh systems, four watches/wearables, a tablet, a lamp and a router all running HarmonyOS.

What Huawei needs to do outside China, from an ecosystem perspective, is soup-up the experience for HMS and AppGallery on non-Huawei phones, especially the Cloud side.

That would effectively add HarmonyOS functionality to GMS phones and kill two birds with one stone.

Obviously Honor would be the perfect candidate for such a route.

Then it could open up the thousands of devices from third parties running HarmonyOS capable firmware to the world market.

Avon B7

Re: It’s Linux

You'd have to define both 'Linux' and 'competitor' before making that particular claim.

Huawei is creating solutions for its own needs and reducing dependencies.

The road map has been clear from the original announcement in 2019.

A multi-kernel system for all manner of devices (from a few KB of memory through to much higher resources) with the eventual goal of one 'harmonised' kernel.

That meant a 'pure' self-developed kernel was already running on some devices from the get go.

For phones and tablets (and for app compatibility reasons) the Android/Linux combo was used (infused with a lot of HarmonyOS code - especially the network stack).

In China, HarmonyOS NEXT will transition away from that.

OpenHarmony was released as an open source version not long after the initial release and a few projects used it to form the base of new OS efforts.

HarmonyOS CONNECT is also available for things like IoT and appliances (together with a range of IoT chipset solutions).

Outside China Huawei ships both the EMUI and HarmonyOS AOSP based systems plus pure HarmonyOS systems . EMUI for Phones. AOSP HarmonyOS for tablets and pure HarmonyOS on wearables, TVs, routers, mesh systems etc.

To the end user it's all 'HarmonyOS' which is a very simple and effective branding scenario. All high memory systems have the core sharing and 'super device' functionality.

Taking that as an overview, one could say that it is already a credible Linux competitor.

The claimed efficiency gains over Linux will need to be tested. As will the security aspects but the pure HarmonyOS kernel has passed the highest security certifications already and seems relatively mature.

There have been some recent New Year claims that may or may not border on wackiness but it seems that TechInsights released a report saying that HarmonyOS could overtake iOS in China this year.

Huawei bets its 2024 on datacenter infrastructure

Avon B7

Shaping up to be a promising year

One remarkable achievement about the revenues this year when compared to 2019, is that the comparison doesn't take into account the massive chunk of revenues that came from Honor in 2019.

When that factor is compensated for these results look even better.

The article mentions HarmonyOS which is one of Huawei's pillars going forward but its other OS (EulerOS) is equally important in enterprise.

It's not so much that observers have predicted HarmonyOS will shed Android compatibility as Huawei announced this move (HarmonyOS NEXT) at HDC during the summer. At least for China. Outside China, Android compatibility will remain for the foreseeable future.

At a recent event Richard Yu promised 'disruptive' technologies for 2024 so we'll see what pops up.

There's no Huawei Chinese chipmakers can fill Nvidia's shoes... anytime soon

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

Again. No evidence. No comment from most of those involved save for the usual anonymous sources, and of course, Bloomberg had to pop up.

Tenders are rife with claims of foul play with battles for influence and persuasion. Nothing new was presented here.

Avon B7

Re: If these sanctions are such a good think for Huawei...

Weird. I only ever press return at the end of a paragraph.

Obviously, the word wrap is precisely why I don't press return at the end of every line.

Chrome. 118.5.0.993.80

MagicOS. 7.1.0.260

Microsoft SwiftKey. 9.10.23.20

Recently but only sometimes, the insertion point will vanish from the posting frame making text navigation a real pain but without any unnecessary hitting of the return key.

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

"They deny, of course"

You just wrapped your viewpoint up into four short words, and there lies the problem.

You have already judged and passed verdict - without evidence.

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

Another site that requires registration but if that is the story I think it is, it is a non-story.

All modern facial recognition technologies can distinguish ethnicity. In some cases it is listed as a tent-pole feature.

It goes much deeper than that too. Huawei uses it all over the place. Not too long ago it was reported that it can be used in farming for things like pig face recognition.

Please post Huawei's official response to the allegations, because I imagine that is all they are, right?

Avon B7

Re: If Huawei able to create Mate60 Pro Despite dtrumpoJoe blocking...

That is definitely wacky, somewhat embarrassing, cringeworthy and I hope not representative of Thai women.

All the woman I've known from the country have been great, humble and very respectful.

It's from 2022 (the technology was unveiled in 2021) but the 'digital employees' are actually being used in the financial sector and Huawei claims the market for applications of digital people avatars (and avatars of pets) will be worth over $500 billion by 2030.

I have seen the original Huawei presentation which was impressive if the short conversation was free running. The problem is the answers in conversation seemed 'scripted' and she understood the Chinese Huawei presenter's non perfect English without a hiccup.

Obviously this is still WiP and AFAIK only being used in finance/insurance marketing at the moment. Everything needs to start somewhere but maybe Sarah shouldn't have been given a few digital beers before having that conversation

Avon B7

Re: There's no editors can proofread article title?

As far as I can see, it's the common Reg habit of playing with the word Huawei and it's pronunciation.

"There's no way..."

Unless I'm missing somethingo obvious.

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

That is an open case I believe.

It was reported here on The Register in a balanced manner:

https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/13/huawei_accused_of_trade_secret/

AFAIK, the case is still open.

If it isn't open, do you know how things ended?

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

Again and again. A complete and utter failure to provide evidence.

As for media outlets, I am a daily reader of the Guardian UK and increasingly worried about it's choices over the last few years. The same can be said of the BBC.

It's not me who has discredited those US outlets. It was them themselves. They are what they are and subject to political influence from their owners and heavily skewed in much of what they do.

That isn't a problem for me. Things are equally skewed on the other side with Chinese media.

What we, the readers, have to do, is drink from as many sources as possible and try to form a balanced opinion on subjects for which much is often missing (deliberately, accidentally or otherwise).

Our time is limited but it is now on us, the readers, to try and pick out the question marks that crop up.

No one will be as innocent as they claim. Not even Huawei (or Apple or whoever).

But what you are doing is discrediting without proof and providing the same accusations over and over.

They will be rebuffed until firm evidence is put on the table. That should be standard practice.

What you are also doing, and I pointed this out earlier, is wilfully ignoring the innovation through research that a huge company like Huawei has brought to industry.

You (I'm assuming it was you, anyway), took a very broad stab at the company on it sucking IP up, ignoring all my factual evidence based points.

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

LOL!

No, you're right. It isn't WSJ.

But amazingly you managed to dredge even deeper into the barrel.

CNN!

And an exclusive, no less!

And the result? Yet more 'accusations'. From anonymous sources or sources that can't speak 'on the record' etc. The same old story.

All they could muster was a 'Huawei equipment could...'

At least they did balance things out a little with a Huawei statement:

"All of our products imported to the US have been tested and certified by the FCC before being deployed there,” Huawei said in its statement to CNN. “Our equipment only operates on the spectrum allocated by the FCC for commercial use. This means it cannot access any spectrum allocated to the DOD.”

The non-story finally fully deflated right there but the slur had already been set in the mind of the reader. Mission accomplished?

Look. The US spent millions shooting down a stray Chinese origin balloon. Luckily it did not have a Huawei logo on it, eh? Top officials came out with the usual hysteria and a few months ago it was officially revealed (and basically ignored by US press) that there was no risk on the device. It was what the Chinese said it was.

More of the same.

But let's reflect for a moment.

The US spent millions shooting that thing down and recovering it from the ocean, but when faced with a few (fully compliant and authorised) cell towers on US soil and near US bases, they couldn't get an order ('national security!,' national security!) and just take them down and actually, you know, inspect them?

Can you see how absurd what you are saying is?

It is time you start reading through the millions of documents that Snowden leaked. You'll probably find some stuff that is closer to reality.

As an aside, most US command communications ran over Huawei gear in Afghanistan. I have yet to see a single complaint about that.

Ah! Don't forget to take note of the time zone.

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

Yes. I remember the article.

A beautiful collection of yet more accusations and heavily skewed in the reporting too but then again it's the Wall Street Journal.

I'll accept that though as you'll find equally skewed articles on the other side.

It's enough to write a documentary or film about for sure but in spite of all the bluster there is not much at all by way of actual proof.

Time and time again the line is 'so and so declined to comment', 'so and so alleges this or that'. Yet in spite of the US's best efforts (including re-opening some of those previously settled civil cases) there is really little to grab.

Nothing even?

The article spells out that Huawei does not stand alone in being accused and that everyone wants access to what everyone else has, yet when the subject of secure rooms pops up, and Huawei says it's to prevent spying not engage in it, it just completely fails to mention that EVERY company with sufficient resources has the exact same rooms in their installations.

It drags out the Tappy case and mentions the nearly $5m settlement but completely fails to reveal why it was awarded.

Idem Cisco. No actual balance in the reporting.

The list goes on.

Let me be clear. I am in no doubt that Huawei walked the fine line of what may or may not be ethical back in the day.

I can assure you it has the equipment of rivals in its labs. Is it being reverse engineered? I have no doubt l!

Do you think Nokia does not have Ericsson and Huawei gear in their installations? Are they not doing the same?

Wolf culture? Of course. Both externally and internally. No different to early Apple (to give one example) pushing employees for results.

In the early days it was dog-eat-dog in the ICT industry. Competition was intense.

Books have been written about Huawei's corporate culture.

Is the tone often war-like or pushing for 'glory'! You bet. If you can't understand that cultural angle though, I suggest you read up on that.

Does money talk? Once again, yes! But it talks even more in the US. Was there any mention of that in the piece? Not a jot.

Enticing employees from rival companies? Of course. If someone from a rival is laying off staff, you can bet competitors will be waiting to pick out top talent. Why do you think Apple is in San Diego? How many Qualcomm staff that have just been given marching orders will end up at Apple or even Huawei (provided they are not US citizens. LOL).

This is how things work. Most of Nokia's image research scientists are working for Huawei.

I am definitely not going to unpick all the allegations because every case is different and none of them have actually supported the main claim against Huawei anyway.

If you actually dig down into each accusation and wipe off the WSJ perspective, you will very likely find a little bit of everything (disgruntled former employees/competitors, mistakes, rogue employees, external companies etc.) and no doubt, among all the stories, some will even have a solid base, but with such a massive company operating in 170 countries, that is to be expected.

With so much supposed disregard for other people's ideas or IP, it does make you wonder how things like Polar coding were not only not misappropriated but developed with the full support of the man behind the idea.

What's going on with that?

Why the blazes would Huawei not just rip the man off and be done with it. He was hardly in a position to fight Huawei.

So, when you are done reading that WSJ piece it should be clear to anyone (neutral) that it set out its stall to present a picture that was tuned solely to the aggrieved. There was very little balance on show. But you knew that anyway.

What was/is happening while all of that is going on?

Why has Huawei consistently spent billions each year on R&D and brought new ideas and technologies to market before others?

Are you seriously suggesting that it was all stolen?

Please get serious for a moment.

The wolf culture is still there. The accusations will not stop and it is very, very likely that the vast majority of them will originate in the US.

Times have changed though (for everyone) and there is more of a modern day vibe to everything as demonstrated by Huawei's recent patent cross licencing deals with Ericsson, Samsung and various patent pools etc. Huawei is also making strides in making its own IP available for licencing.

I can't remember the date of the video but it wasn't that long ago when Huawei revealed as an example that is was involved in less IP related legal disputes than Apple (and by a huge margin).

That will never end. Disputes are the name of the game.

However, most importantly in this discussion. Did you actually prove your point here? The answer to that is 'no' and even if each and every one of those accusations (collected over decades) were true, what percentage of Huawei's output and achievements would it actually represent?

That is a hugely important question and the answer will astound you.

Just how important was Tappy to Huawei? It makes for scandalous reading but what actually happened there? Was reality far more mundane than the actual accusation?

Avon B7

Re: Just testing Google search engine. Got plenty of juicy hits.

Well not if it's only accusations and behind a pay wall.

If you search Google for accusations you will find a few. If the US is doing the accusing I would prefer to see the result of the cases.

Get Googling!

Either way your generalisation will not actually change what I said because I stated facts.

Avon B7

Re: Huawei admitted stealing code from Cisco

Yes. That case is dragged out on a regular basis.

Way back from 2003 (the infringement is of course prior to that).

But what happened on July 28, 2004?

Do you have that bookmarked?

Remind me of the scale of the infringement and the information Huawei provided in court.

Allow me to preempt your next move which will probably be about Tappy.

More importantly (and worryingly) you seem to believe these cases in some way take away from what I said.

You haven't challenged that in the slightest.

Avon B7

Re: If these sanctions are such a good think for Huawei...

This article is about US technology sanctions.

Nothing to do with the EU.

As for IP, you seem to be barking up the wrong tree.

Are you implying that Huawei is somehow able to suck up technology from others and implement it before others do (no mean feat). In that case you have some explaining to do.

Huawei is consistently one of the top patent filers worldwide (actually within the US too).

It is a major SEP holder for 5G and has largely been a few steps ahead of of both Ericsson and Nokia in ICT.

It has over 23 R&D centres worldwide.

It is also one of the world's top investors in R&D.

As for cars, it has partnered with major Chinese manufacturers for the advanced technology aspects of automotive solutions.

BMW, Audi, GM can have no complaints with Huawei. In fact the rumours of VW's interest in HarmonyOS never seem to go away.

Mercedes just had to deny a similar rumours.

You say 'like other Chinese manufacturers' but Huawei has been deploying its technologies on automotive solutions for a few years now. GM and VW have nothing in the same league as Huawei.

Cars will become basically smart batteries/computers on wheels and the smart part will basically run off mobile data centers with massive compute capability and very hi-tech ICT needs.

Of the manufacturers you mentioned, which ones can meet those demands?

Also, automotive chipsets don't require cutting edge process nodes.

To be totally honest only a tiny fraction of the world's chip production is on bleeding edge nodes and for all the silly talk of military usage, that mostly uses technology from 10 or 15 years ago.

Huawei is also successfully bringing major infrastructure into the digital realm. Ports, rail, mining, aviation, smart manufacturing...

How are they able to suck all that knowledge up and deploy it before others?

Avon B7

Re: If these sanctions are such a good think for Huawei...

No need to be confused.

Huawei has no issues doing business with US companies. In the short term at least it makes good sense.

Good business sense for everyone.

The irony is that on the business side, in a global supply chain, everybody wants to do business with everyone else.

The problem is politics and the shortsightedness of those in power.

They will go down in history as accelerating China's march to self sufficiency and imposing enormous self harm on its semiconductor industry.

Every single US Huawei supplier has applied for a licence to do business with the company.

They know the dire outlook that being denied business options with Huawei/China will bring.

Huawei stopped fighting against sanctions long ago.

Now it is simply working to overcome them.

Avon B7

There is little doubt

Chinese vendors only have two options. De-Americanisation and self sufficiency.

No one questions either of the two is possible or even happening. The second one (just as with the EU) was declared years before Trump started messing with global supply chains. It was simply declared using different terms (self sufficiency).

The first point is a result of radical weaponisation of technology and most analysts agree that de-Americanisation is currently underway outside China to some degree. Back in 2019 it was estimated that re-design and production could take between 3 and 5 years. That makes the first visible signs likely to start appearing around now.

Huawei itself has already de-Americanised over 13,000 components, pumping millions into its Chinese suppliers and requiring them to increase quality in the process.

It has also invested across the chip design and

manufacturing tool chain.

Each wave of US sanctions has cut chunks out of the revenues of US companies. They (and the associations that represent them) are not happy.

The recent 'boom' in earnings from some of them is simply the fruit of 'non-demand' items. Basically stockpiling efforts from Chinese companies.

Revenues across the entire US semiconductor industry will be impacted severely. Those revenues are required for future R&D. They have been impacted since 2019.

Now, it is Chinese companies that are seeing massive rises in investment and revenues through real demand (as opposed to non-demand orders) combined with government subsidies.

Huawei's Ascend line was more than AI inference from the outset.

It was a full stack solution across both hardware and software. Ascend processors scale down to earbuds and IoT. Paired with MindSpore and CANN it was always going to have legs and HiSilicon was going to guide it along the roadmap.

It is worth noting that, ever since the sanctions began, HiSilicon embarked on a recruitment program for top talent (paying industry leading salaries to attract talent from all over the globe).

It has not changed tack. The last hurdle of fabrication remains but China has now been forced to accelerate development in that area.

It would be foolish to speak of time frames with any degree of precision but that is what some did. In 2019 many industry watchers claimed it could take decades for China to catch up.

That is a bit crazy when we realise that we could very probably be on the cusp of a move beyond silicon and absolutely no one knows what China is cooking.

With that in mind all we can do is look at the bigger picture.

In the smartphone sector, Huawei has claimed that 'sanctions' are the new 'normal'. They have said that they are moving back to a two flagship per year release cycle (plus folding and flip). What does that indicate?

Qualcomm has stated that it will see no further material revenue from Huawei. What does that indicate?

We know that de-Americanisation is well underway across the supply chain.

We know that Huawei's biggest ever software project (MetaERP) was completed in record time with yet more revenue impact for an American company (Oracle in this case).

We know that it is moving forward with self developed alternatives to wireless device interconnection (NearLink).

We know that both HarmonyOS and EulerOS are moving in tandem to lay the foundations for self reliance in the OS space. HarmonyOS NEXT has already been announced (totally Android free). There are rumours of a desktop flavour of HarmonyOS for 2024.

These are just tiny pieces of a bigger puzzle but Huawei does appear to be reservedly optimistic.

Canon just broadsided ASML with its imprint system.

Could a Chinese effort deliver an equally groundbreaking solution to the fabrication issue?

And where do we think RISC-V chiplet solutions will be just 5 years from now?

Pangu?

What are the chances of Huawei or Chinese interests actually leapfrogging current technologies in the near term?

With US interests haemorrhaging revenues in the near term through the loss of major Chinese sales volumes, how will they fund R&D going forward. After all, it isn't really sanctions that matter here, but convincing sovereign nations to impose export restrictions. Taiwan and South Korea have already managed to get permanent exemptions. ASML is far from happy with the current geopolitical situation.

My gut feeling is that the fab problem is closer to being resolved than many believe.

Tell me Huawei: Chinese giant wants to know what made EU label it high security risk

Avon B7

Re: I guess they can't just say the real reason...

With the circle closed you now post a comment completely void of substance.

Criminals are in the business of crime. In the case you are presenting that would be crime for economic benefit.

They run the risk of prison or fines.

If you are already in a dominant position, already profitable, you do not risk the lifeblood of the business by sending a message to your entire client base that you are untrustworthy in an industry where trust and compliance are key.

No company will be free of accusations of 'foul play' at times and some of those claims will be valid. Negotiating tactics, abuse of dominant position etc. Some of those accusations may actually be proven true through evidence, too.

In the case of IP related court cases I believe Apple has had more cases on the table than Huawei but that is normal business. You will always be dragged into a dispute somewhere along the way.

What you are claiming (without a shred of evidence) is something completely different and does not change my question.

WHY would a company risk its existence by spying on its clients userbases?

You haven't answered that.

Let's ask the next logical question. Spying for who? The Chinese government?

That would be absurd.

Nation states with technology resources don't actually need to work with the assistance of any particular 'local' telco to reach their goals.

They simply try to infiltrate ANY player with viable infiltration vectors.

Do you doubt this?

The age of the cases you mentioned is worth highlighting because not only were the claims not proven but Huawei went on to dominate the industry through gaining the trust of its customers. No amount of discounting could justify using an ICT infrastructure provider which had known, evidence based, espionage claims on its back.

Ironically, that could constitute criminal behaviour by the carrier.

Avon B7

Re: Just today...

If I really were a Huawei employee, I would 'out' myself 'by accident' in the same thread where I confirmed I am not a Huawei employee.

OK. Whatever.

If you fail to see how absurd that is there is little I can do about that.

I said I know a lot about Huawei. That information is publicly available.

Avon B7

Re: Just today...

Not part of the trade?

You haven't really named the trade or convention so I don't really know what you are talking about but let's take MWC Barcelona as an example.

First off, yes there are 'alleys' but companies like Huawei have booths with accredited entry. They don't need to 'attract' anyone. You enter because you want to enter, even if it's just for the hospitality area.

If there is anything 'for your eyes only' (normally pre-arranged in the first place) you will be escorted off the floor and up onto the second level.

Last year Huawei's stand was the largest in the history of MWC Barcelona.

I can confirm that next year's stand will be equally big. Gigantic. Almost its own fair within the fair. Floor space cost will be around 12 million euros (not including the stand construction itself).

Yes, if you want to attract someone to your stand you absolutely have to put your star attraction in a visible high traffic location. Expect people to take photos. If you don't want them to, put signage in place.

Anything else that is not for general public access should not be publicly visible but in a reserved area of the stand.

You are frankly presenting an absurd case. If it's a 'cultural thing', that uncredited employee would never have admitted to being from Huawei, right?

Avon B7

Re: I guess they can't just say the real reason...

And so the circle finally closes with yet more allegations.

Par for the course.

I'm talking about Huawei because I know a bit about Huawei. That's it.

I could talk about a major UK ICT company (now defunct) because I did have access to certain details of possible interest here but I'm not going to do that for logical reasons.

That isn't the case with Huawei because I do not have a working relationship with them.

And you are digging up ancient history from 2009-2012.

Nothing evidence based whatsoever.

Am I surprised?

Not really, because from 2012 to 2019 (and even beyond) Huawei blazed a trail and had the complete trust of the major carriers. It opened up its code for inspection in various countries. It offered to licence its ENTIRE 5G stack to a US competitor or consortium. The whole thing. That offer was turned down.

None of that would have happened if it was dragging known cases of evidence based espionage behind it.

As I've said many times. This is simple.

The second someone is able to demonstrate that Huawei (or any ICT company) has extracted data for espionage it will effectively be a dead company. That should be easy to understand.

Why risk killing your multi billion dollar business?

You might not like to hear Huawei claim it hasn't suffered a major ICT in decades but until you (or anybody) actually put something on the table, their claim will stand.

Arguably Huawei is the most scrutinised ICT company (and by far) on the planet.

And, ironically, it is investing huge amounts into network/data security as more carriers open up to 'Everything as a Service' and cloud/intercloud systems.

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