Reply to post: Re: Presumbly the UK has similar plans

Declassified and released: More secret files on US govt's emergency doomsday powers

TheFifth

Re: Presumbly the UK has similar plans

Ukraine obviously wants to eliminate all Russians inside Ukraine, and restore it's territory. Sections of the Ukrainian population do not want to be ruled by Ukraine's regime since 2014.

As someone who has in-laws who are Russian and who have family who are Russian and live in the east of Ukraine, I can tell you that you are so wrong with what you are claiming here. The 'eliminate all Russians inside Ukraine' bit is pure Putin propaganda. It may be worth mentioning that a 2015 poll of residents of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions outside of the Russian rebel held areas showed that 75% wanted the entire Donbas region to remain fully Ukrainian. Also, when asked if Russian-speaking citizens are under pressure or threat, 82% said 'no'. Only 7% 'somewhat' supported Russia helping rebels in the east and 71% did not. Note that these result are after Russia had already supported rebels in the east and many ethnic Ukrainians had fled. It's likely that before 2014, these figures would have been very different and shown less support for breaking away and less threat to ethnic Russians. So the line that Russia is saving the Donbas region from Ukrainian atrocities and that its people want to be part of Russia is complete bull.

Also, it's worth noting that in the 1991 referendum on becoming independent and separating from Russia, even in the east, over 80% of the population voted for independence (Donetsk 83.9% and Luhansk 83.86%). The only region below 80% was Crimea at 54.19%. So Russia could possibly make some sort of claim about popular support in Crimea (not really though), but in the east it's flimsy at best.

In the last census of Ukraine, the area with the highest ethnic Russian population was Crimea which stood at 58.3%. The next highest was Luhansk with 39% , then Donetsk at 38.2% and Kharkiv at 25.6%. Everywhere else is below 18%, with most below 10%. Something tells me that it would be tricky to get 97% to accept Russian rule when only 58% of the population are ethnic Russians (well, if the referendum was fair anyway). It's a moot point anyway as the referendum was illegal under Ukrainian law as all Ukrainian referendum that cause territorial changes can only be approved if all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote.

Obviously the percentage of ethnic Russians in the east and Crimea is now likely far higher as ethnic Ukrainians have fled those regions due to mistreatment by Russian rebels (ironically).

I'm no historian, and I wouldn't dare to suggest you don't have a good understanding of the region's history (you may be a history professor with a really weird and unique take on it for all I know), but as someone who married into a Slavic family, with relations in both Russia and Ukraine, I've tried hard to read and understand the region and the history (not to mention having spent a lot of time in Russia over the past 15 years).

My suggestion is don't listen to Russia or the West's propaganda and read the history for yourself. You could even try talking to some actual Ukrainians and Russians if able. If you're interested, I would suggest starting with the following:

The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine

The Last Empire: The Final Days of the Soviet Union

Revolutionary Russia, 1891-1991

You can see the beginnings of these troubles going back hundreds of years, especially when you look at the way Ukraine was treated as part of both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union. Ukraine has always been a country caught between warring empires. Be it the Byzantine Empire, the Mongols, the Ottoman Empire, the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, The Austro Hungarian Empire or the Russian Empire, it's always been a battle ground that others used to fight their wars.

Ironically, Muscovy, which later grew into the Tsardom of Russia, began life as a mere region of Kyivan Rus', the Kyiv centred state that is arguably the mother of all Slavic countries.

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