Finger crossing won't lure iPhone coders to Windows Mobile

Apple will sell more than 82 million iPhones in 2012, teaming up with RIM and Palm in an industry that will ship 500 million plus smartphones that year and leave Microsoft out in the cold. The trio will forge a "new world order" as smart phones become the next wave in computing according to a research report from RBC Capital …

[Charlie Clark]

Bashing Microsoft / Boosting Apple

Windows Mobile has been crap for ages but the licensing has be attractive enough to encourage manufacturers. Microsoft won't be that happy about Apple's continued success of it the "i" product line but is probably significantly more worried about HTC's Android release. HTC did more than any other company to demonstrate that, despite their drawbacks, Windows Mobile devices could even be cool. And now they're off to Android. But Windows Mobile has never been important to Microsoft for revenue. For years revenue has been "Office, Offifce and Office" which is why they are probably pouring resources into the online version of it.

The iPhone, interestingly enough, may offer Microsoft the same kind of chance that NT eventually offered IBM and that Google has been so successful - a great platform for its other "assets" which is probably why the Bing wrapper is now available for Objective C.

As for market share - Vista has been an utter disaster for Microsoft and they still own the world. Windows 7 is shaping up very nicely for them. Apple is still growing but if those developing markets you mention are so important then the free software stack is the one to watch.

For consumers it's nice to see a bit of competition for once.

[Anonymous Coward]

App store (extended)

But first!

OT: I recall hearing, reading, seeing (or perhaps some combination of up to all three) that the human genetic code has very limited variance. I think the value quoted was 2% variance.

Now, for example, compare that to dog. From tiny Chihuahua to Irish Deer Hound.

And it would appear that some think the 2% variance in human genetic codes is partly due to some catastrophic event or events in the past that seriously restricted the genes available.

Me, I have another take: the observable human practice of intolerance with anything perceptively different seems to be swiftly followed by a desire to annihilate it.

Now for IT:

Why can't Apple extend iTunes and the App store to others?

[Sampler]

Bankers - what do they know?

Given the current situation we're in.

Only thing I have to say on this article is my third windows mobile is in the post, expected tomorrow - after being a fan of my first (HTC Prophet) and absolutely love my second (HTC Kaiser/TyTnII ) the Rhodium (Touch Pro 2) that should be landing tomorrow has got me all kinds of giddy.

I'm not tied to O2 for a stupid length of time on an expensive contract and all three phones put together has cost me less than the cheapest iPhone.

I've used an iPhone and hated the "experience" - maybe I'm odd and wrong, but I love HTC's take on WinMo :D

[Charles Manning]

"Into irrelevance"?

"Into irrelevance" suggests that Windows was at one time relevant. I doubt that.

Even though MS threw money at WinCE/Windows Mobile, and have not made any money from it, they never really got any significant traction.

[The Cube]

Sorry Steve but WinDOS just isn't a phone O/S

I have stuck with WinDOS mobile for quite a few years now, attracted initially by the integration with Exchange, the crapness of everything Nokia (except the brick) and out of patience with Sorry Eriksson. What have I learnt? Windoze mobile is just like Windows in many ways;

1) It freezes up or hangs at moments of its own choosing, generally chosen for my maximum inconvenience.

2) It can't do more than one thing properly, play an MP3 whilst doing email? Most of the time but...

3) Windows is not a real time operating system, when a phone call arrives, stop doing whatever Windows crap you are doing and let me answer the fecking call.

4) You have to install loads of third party utilities to make it work the way it should have out of the box

5) You get fleeced by MS who want money for an 'upgrade' to a version of the OS that doesn't even fix the bugs in the version you already paid for (working A2DP anyone?)

(1, 2, 3) are symptoms of the real stopper, WinDOS is never going to be a real time OS and HTC are never going to ship a handset with enough processor / RAM to let Windows Mobile XXIV run properly as a phone and I don't see Cray entering the smartphone market.

[DT]

Yawn

Complaining about the donination of Kang when you clearly love Kodos! Same shit, different suit, must be nice to get paid to troll, I'm surprised you didn't mention the zune!

Perhaps M$ should make a locked down mobile operating system that only allows "approved" programs bought an outlet from which they take a cut...

[JayKay]

Just in case anyone missed it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

I just love this clip. A perfect example of denial... it ain't just a river in Egypt ya know.

Why no dancing monkey boy icon? I suppose the fail one is basically the same thing.

[jsk]

82 million/year?

Since AT&T only has, what, 79 million subscribers total in the US, can I assume that this 82 million iPhones a year must include what, a massive rollout in China?!?

[Big-nosed Pengie]

Could it have anything to do with the fact...

...that Windwoes Mobile is a steaming pile of fresh dog turd?

[Ty]

hehe

wakey wakey M$ zealots. You are on a road to nowhere.

Stop your whining and get a Mac.

[smeddy]

Ugly Microsoft

Microsoft should pay HTC whatever they want to make TouchFlo the de-facto Windows Mobile GUI.

Everytime I'm bounced back into the Windows Mobile interface I'm left just stunned, wondering what on earth they were thinking that they allow such an ugly, primitive system to stay in place.

I'm in love with my Touch HD (so superior to an iPhone) but Microsoft are the weak link here.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why can't Apple extend iTunes and the App store to others?"

Because that wouldn't sell any Apple hardware, which is how Apple makes money.

@ DT: an iPhone will work perfectly well without any additional apps. Whether or not to buy apps, or indeed an entirely different phone, is a choice for the customer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple happy to piss off developers

Apple is it's own worse nightmare, it tries to create a massive platform and then ties it down with draconian rules and pisses off the very people it is trying to attract.

If you are into writing fart "apps" for the stupid then it is an ideal platform, anything else seems to get rejected.

[windywoo]

Would the Apple fanbois?

Ever stfu with their endless arse kissing? It took iPhone THREE generations to acquire features that have been in lesser phones for years. It was hardly a very "smart" phone and just recently its security was criticised as being a joke, and its encryption was found to decrypt itself willingly in the hands of a cracker with some simple software.

I have never used Windows Mobile, so I can't comment on how good it is, but I get sick of this inane prattle from Apple fans. The success of the iPhone, (and most Apple products for that matter) comes down to marketing and an incessantly gullible and vapid crowd of posers.

The iPhone may have innovated by having the app store and having all apps in one place, but most iPhone users are unaware that apps were available for other phones for years before Apple decided to catch up. And when they did decide to have a go at the market they did it in their usual style of obsessive control over the whole system, screwing over developers and customers alike. If MS had tried this the shit would have hit the fan. When Apple do it, it is discreetly ignored by the fans who put their fingers in their ears and whistle as if nothing untoward was happening.

Articles like this aren't worth even the few bytes of memory they take up on the server.

[Anonymous Coward]

@jsk

jsk said: "Since AT&T only has, what, 79 million subscribers total in the US, can I assume that this 82 million iPhones a year must include what, a massive rollout in China?!?"

2 points:

1) Population of the US = 0.3 billion. Population of rest of world = 6.7 billion. Just because AT&T has the monopoly on iPhones in the US does not mean they have a monopoly anywhere else. I assume you have heard of the concept of 'the world outside the US'. Let me assure you it does exist and they do buy iPhones.

2) Yes there will be an iPhone rollout in China. When is the subject of conjecture, but do try to keep up. Example: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/13/chiphone_in_september/

[Anonymous Coward]

What happened?

Microsoft is a software company. They should see the IPhone and any other hardware as an opportunity to sell "Microsoft Apps" Guess they are fresh out of ideas?

I bet Bill Gates reads the news and thinks WTF is Balmer doing to my company?

[Pascal Monett]

Just one question

Ever since Ballmer, Microsoft has gone from headache to disaster to debacle.

Why is Ballmer the Monkey Boy still at the helm of Microsoft ? What on God's green Earth has him glued to the command chair like that ?

In any other company, a failure the size of Vista would have seen the CEO leave to spend more time with his family, and yet Ballmer is still spouting nonsense in the name of Microsoft. Does he have the shareholders locked up or something ? Zombified ? Hooked on drugs ?

What is it going to take to get rid of him ?

I think we should be told.

[Hugh_Pym]

@jsk

82 million WORLDWIDE. The world is a lot bigger than the US. Get a globe and have a look if you don't believe me.

[James Hughes 1]

Apple? Customer friendly?

Is that right?

What are phone apps anyway? Most useful features for a phone are already present, aren't they? Like being a phone?

OK, so there are some useful things...games I guess. Haven't they been on phones for ages?

[The Commenter formally known as Matt]

re: hehe

>wakey wakey M$ zealots. You are on a road to nowhere.

>Stop your whining and get a Mac.

Oh. my. god.

Where is webster phreaky when you need him!

[JohnG]

Who buys from MS Markeplace?

The bulk of applications for Windows Mobile are from sites that have no MS affiliation. The idea of a closed market, locked into the manufacturer maybe OK for Apple users but it is not what Windows Mobile users are used to. I couldn't give a shit if MS (or Apple) has approved some app for sale and makes something out of the sale - I like the freedom to install what I like from whatever souce. It is the same woth Nokia and Symbian - Nokia is not the only game in town.

If the Apple's idea of controlling everything is so good, why were people so quick to devise ways to break away from such restrictions?

Where MS has really missed the point is that they have not really improved the user interface enough, despite the obvious benefits of the iPhone UI.

[Julian Smart]

Give us free tools again

Microsoft had the right idea a few years ago in giving away WinMobile development tools, but now they apparently want to fail by making the tools expensive, and out of the reach of bright but poor independent developers. The sheer idiocy of this is astonishing. Whether the lure of WinMobile+free tools is now enough given its trendier competitors, I don't know, but they're not even giving themselves a chance to compete on apps. Perhaps with WinMobile 7 they'll bring back free tools.

Is this phone app mania just a short-lived fad? It'll be interesting to see whether apps are going to be a critical factor for people choosing their phones.

[Anonymous Coward]

i may be wrong

but doesn't iphone app development require that you use the, mac only, iphone sdk. And windows mobile development probably requires the windows only visual studio.

looks like a pretty mutually exclusive set of developers to me.

[Nic 3]

@windywoo

"It took iPhone THREE generations to acquire features that have been in lesser phones for years"

It took all the other providers a lot longer. You have a short memory.

Also what you seem to miss is the WHY iPhone users on The Reg are so animated about their phones. It is not for any Apple/Jobs obsession but more because the device works well and is a pleasure to use. I can't think of a single piece of consumer electronics I have purchased in the last 10 years that has been anywhere near as intuitive and well designed.

I don't think any iPhone fans on the reg think that many of the apps on the app store are especially innovative. Most will have been developed off the back of a similar offering but the buying/installing experience is a doddle and usability is generally extremely high compared to their predecessors on other phones. The average consumer was never going to go hunting around on obscure WinMo sites to install apps on their phone. Techies maybe.

My point is, yes it's a smart phone, yes smart phones have been done before but Apple really nailed it and that very rarely happens in consumer electronics. That's why there is such an avid fan base.

[N2]

Fairly obvious really

There are more 'consumers' who dont want to have to fuck around with an over complicated lot of bollox than those that take some sadistic pleasure in doing so.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What's the alternative to a Windows Mobile?

I love(d) my Windows Mobile, and the one before it, but your article is spot-on: "fun" is not part of the equation. In fact, sometimes the GUI is downright slow and objectionable. BUT it is flexible enough to be able to install and run software that makes iPhone users look on in grudging admiration ... so long as I don't let them try to operate the less-than-intuitive interface themselves.

iPhone wins every competition on looking good and providing a pleasant UI. But so what? If I'm limited to what Uncle Steve says I can do with it, it's only half a smartphone and I'll be ice-skating to France before I get one. Yet the Windows Mobile handles like a racing Trabant, even if (and sometimes perhaps, because) you can bolt on whatever the hell you like.

So, we have Form vs Functionality. iPhone vs WM. Is there nothing out there that can provide both?

[Wayland Sothcott 1]

iPhone is not a Mac

but Windows Mobile is pretending to be a PC.

The Psion range were good PDA's but the Windows based PDA's were clueless by comparison. All that CPU power and bright screen and lot's or storage and still they were horrible to use. I could never understand how people could find them useful. I put the SD card from my camera in a top of the range HP PDA and it really struggled to display the pictures. What a useless brick. To top it all they crash and lose all your data on a regular basis.

Apple simply started from scratch with new hardware and a new aproach, not trying to make a desktop operating system fit in your pocket. What Apple have done is really not that amazing, they were just bold enough to do it and tenatious enough to get it done right.

Anyone not in awe of technology can see what's right and what's wrong with PDA's and Mobile Phones. It was obvious that a camera is a good idea and that the view phone is a bad idea.

Look at the graphics on a Windows PDA and that of an iPod Touch or iPhone. The Windows device can hardly keep up with the very basic opening of windows, where as the iPod can scroll and resize as smooth as angel delight making it far easier to get along with. Pretty obvious you should never over burden your hardware with bloated software, but Microsoft have been doing that forever.

Example, P4 with 512 RAM, it runs great with Micro2003, a cut down pirate windows 2003 distro, it's a dream to use. Similar PC with 2GB RAM and Vista, it's just horrible.

MS have choked our computers to death and are now choking themselves.

[Jason Bloomberg]

Yawn

"Net Applications shows Windows to be drifting slowly downward, from 94.88 per cent last September to 93.04 this July"

Wake me up when Mac or Linux have 30% market share.

I believe Mr Twain would have something to say about the demise of Microsoft.

[Jessica Werkz]

@Anonymous Coward @7:02

'If you are into writing fart "apps" for the stupid then it is an ideal platform, anything else seems to get rejected.'

You godda be kidding right?

50,000 apps, at the last count, in the store of which about 10 are fart apps, which works out that 99.98% apps that are accepted are NOT fart apps.

I bet you'll end up getting an iPhone in the next couple of years as the darned thing eventually wears down everyone's resistance.

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft play the long game

They'll slowly integrate the devices with your enterprise systems. They're competing with RIM more than Apple and Palm.

[karakalWitchOfTheWest]

@jsk

You remember that there are other regions on earth than the US and other carriers then AT&T?

[Number6]

@windywoo

It mightx have taken Apple three generations to get the iPhone to where it is, but the important point is that it is now there and is selling. Windows Mobile has been around a lot longer and strangely has failed to progress the same way.

I happen to dislike the iPhone experience, but I dislike WinMo even more. However, Apple are masters at providing a good user experience for consumers. Techies get annoyed at the restrictions imposed, but there's a lot less techies than general consumers so it's not a problem to Apple. It's like a supermarket with everythign in one place compared to a town high street where you have to visit each store individually - people complain about the supermarket and the effect it's having on the little independent stores but they still shop there.

Perhaps when Android has had chance to work out the wrinkles I'll switch, but for now I'm afraid I'm using S60 because it isn't an iPhone and it isn't WinMo and yet provides the level of smartphone functionality that I need.

[Anonymous Coward]

@windywoo

Quickly @DT - “...programs bought an outlet from which they take a cut...” Don’t you think that Handango already do?

@windywoo - You just don't get it do you? I'd argue that the majority of people that have bought the iPhone aren't Apple fanbois, just regular consumers that have bought a well marketed a eminently useable product. Apple built on the iPod line successfully. How many normal consumers do you know that have an iPod of some description? It's one of the biggest selling products of all time, up there with walkmans! You are quite right to point out that it took 3 OS revision to get it up to scratch - to date Microsoft have officially released 21 (including the recent RTM of Win "7") versions of Windows, and Windows 7 is *nearly* there. The average consumer, who really matters; not the commentards that pontificate on the same old shit day in, day out, clearly isn't interested in endless spec lists, they just want something that is pretty and is easy to use. What's wrong with that? Nerds like you never learn. The average consumer doesn't care what a narcissistic little prick like you thinks. Why are you so upset that this product and company is successful? You need help mate.

"The success of the iPhone, (and most Apple products for that matter) comes down to marketing and an incessantly gullible and vapid crowd of posers." - Fuck you. Generally people that say that are arrogant and have an anti-whoever agenda. Yes, marketing has a large part to play - Apple have recently got quite good at it. That's part of what business is about - it goes towards the one and only goal of any business. TO MAKE MONEY. Some of their marketing has very publicly bitten them on the arse. That's life. The product is still selling extremely well despite this. To most people, that would be an indication of a successful product, which, incase you haven't noticed, it is!

"The iPhone may have innovated by having the app store and having all apps in one place, but most iPhone users are unaware that apps were available for other phones for years before Apple decided to catch up..." Whose fault is that? Let me get this straight - you are pissed off at Apple and it's customers because the App Store has been a runaway success? That's just idiotic, frankly. If Nokia or Microsoft or the Mobile Operators had spent the marketing money that Apple obviously have on their App Store and made it as easy to use and put apps on the device, then perhaps we wouldn't be having this "discussion". Android has an "App Store" of sorts. It's not particularly easy to navigate, and there isn't nearly as much choice, but I hear there are some nifty apps on the platform. Having previously owned both WinMo “Smart”phones and Blackberrys, I feel well placed to comment on this issue. The problem that both handsets, too an admittedly lesser degree with the Blackberry, have had is that the majority of software was either extremely buggy or ridiculously expensive, and usually both. Neither publicise the fact that market places exist either. Perhaps they should take a leaf out of Apples marketing manual.

"And when they did decide to have a go at the market they did it in their usual style of obsessive control over the whole system, screwing over developers and customers alike." - Apple have made some really dumb decisions about apps for entirely spurious reasons and yes, there are a lot of seemingly pointless apps, but as a consumer, I don’t feel “screwed over”. They’re have also been a number of stories about disgruntled developers feeling hard done by, some even not receiving prompt payment. That is wrong and Apple were rightly torn a new one by the press and commentards alike. I’m confident though that if a survey was undertaken a significant majority would say that they are satisfied with the products and services offered.

“If MS had tried this the shit would have hit the fan. When Apple do it, it is discreetly ignored by the fans who put their fingers in their ears and whistle as if nothing untoward was happening.” There is always one! That’s purely speculative, and smacks of a pointless bitterness. Get over it and yourself. Microsoft and Apple are both big and wealthy enough to look after their own interests. Being a ‘fan’ of either one is futile. They are both after your hard earned readies. I, as an owner of a Mac and an iPhone, am sick of reading some of the vitriol that cowards hiding behind pseudonyms or AC like you levee at me because of my choices as a consumer. I don’t pontificate about the products. I like them because they work *for me*, and if asked for an opinion, I give it. You might not agree. Get over it and grow the fuck up.

“Articles like this aren't worth even the few bytes of memory they take up on the server.” Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mate.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fail

My Jobs Device is superior to all your computer LOL!!!!!11111one

Sent from my iPhone

[Daniel 1]

The developing world will have a big part in deciding where things go, from now

Microsoft uderestimated the importance of the mobile market because they underestimated its potential size. They wrote it off as unprofitable, and something their competitors could mess with, but throughout Africa and Asia, there are people who are going directly online via mobile phones. Africa’s mobile industry is expanding at nearly double the global rate. The phone is their first experience of the internet, and so the internet is their first experience of computing. They've skipped that whole tiresome sit-up-and-beg desktop experience, altogether. As such, the Windows Mobile experience is perhaps even less compelling - not just because cost, simplicity, and reliability count for much more in these markets, but because there is no foundation of Wiindows Desktop experience to build user expectations on. Not only do these people not have a desktop computer, but they may learn never to need one.

[ThomH]

Be fair to Ballmer

He was commenting on a $600 handset when the rest were free, and obviously trying to influence its future. I'm sure he must really have been aware that Apple could drop the price later if it needed to and would probably do really well in the consumer space, but what would he gain by saying that? If nothing else, dropping the price by almost a third after less than ten weeks suggests that he wasn't too far off on Apple's initial (announced) plans.

[Ivan Headache]

@windywoo

"And when they did decide to have a go at the market they did it in their usual style of obsessive control over the whole system, screwing over developers and customers alike."

I'm not at all sure what you mean by "Screwing over developers and customer alike"

Point 1. If by 'screwing developers' you mean the commission they take on sales - well I for one would willingly pay 30%. That's a fantastic commission. My photo agency takes 55% on sales - and that's fairly common.

Point 2. How is the customer being screwed? As a 'customer' I haven't felt that I've been screwed at all - unless the app doesn't do what it says on the tin - but it's the developer not Apple that writes on the tin.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Simon Banyard

Wow, he wound you up a treat, didn't he? I stopped reading at "little prick" - if you're hurling personal abuse then you're wrong, no matter what your opinion is.

It's not just this fellow either. Why is it that criticism of Apple evokes such strong emotions? It's almost like it's seen as blasphemy. One would get less response insulting Islam in the middle of Tehran.

[Anonymous Coward]

QED?

I think it fair to propose all of above is taken as proof that 2% variance in human gene pool is a self infliction rather than result of some global catastrophe.

[Anonymous Coward]

Blasphemy

If people criticise Microsoft, nobody cares. It's like criticising Burger King or Ryanair. They're easy targets. Lowest-common denominator stuff. Half-arsed mass market material. It's not news.

If people criticise Apple, all hell breaks out. Apple customers tend to be enthusiastic about their purchases. Perhaps the company is doing something right?

[ThomH]

@AC responding to Simon Banyard

Windywoo's post also hurled personal abuse, the only difference is that he chose to do it without expletives. I think you're being biased in saying that only criticism of Apple evokes string emotions — it's actually either criticism or praise that subsequently seems to lead to someone shouting at someone else.

Vocal minorities who take offence at anything are a feature of the world and of the Internet. If you read mainly tech sites, you'll mainly see the pro and anti Apple minorities. No doubt there's a forum somewhere where someone is wondering what it is about criticising Judge Reinhold that evokes such strong emotions as to be almost like blasphemy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Look!

Everyone should just use J2ME and then all phones will be equal!!! >_>

[John70]

Microsoft Tactics

Microsoft will follow the 3 E's

Embrace the new technology that is now out there. Usually try to buy the competition.

Extend the technology do something a bit more than what is available. if they couldn't buy out the competition.

Extinguish the competitors by out pricing them. If they can't be bought out.

Meanwhile Apple have moved on to the next big thing.

[Jessica Werkz]

Never getting Apple

Why do some people say that they will NEVER buy anything Apple?

If Apple bought out the best ever PC running Windows and the critter actually worked far better than a non-Apple PC I have a feeling that these NEVER people will stick to their guns and not buy one, obviously cutting something off from the front of their face.

What sort of people are these NEVER people? Would I recognise one in the street.

It's all a bit odd.

[deadbeef]

@ Jessica Werkz

> You godda be kidding right?

> 50,000 apps, at the last count, in the store of which about 10 are fart apps, which works out

> that 99.98% apps that are accepted are NOT fart apps.

Yeah the other 99.98% are flashlight apps and a ton of e-books.

[Shakje]

Having developed for winMo

I can say it's stupidly straightforward if you're already do .net development. Once you get used to the mobile SDK then you can (as with most C# apps, I find [and I'm originally a C++/Win32 coder) code what you want in a relatively short space of time. We had a client app talking to our legacy server (with an in-house messaging protocol) within a day, and most of the time was spent getting the UI right. I would say that the only painful thing I've experienced is setting up the UI.

Compared to other phones, the fact that we could get the PDA on our VPN with little fuss, meant that it was even easier to test with our dev server. I'd write an app for it any day. Having played around with the Nokia SDKs, if it wasn't for Java it'd be all right. I don't hate Java as a language, but it's a nightmare getting an IDE that's of the quality of VS (when using C#, it's still a bit flaky with native C++), even though I find NetBeans reasonably good. As for the iPhone, I'll probably never know, as I've no need to develop for it (and no wish to develop in Objective-C), and if I ever develop anything of worth for WinMo or Symbian I can quite happily sell it independently for whatever price I want, through whatever means I want. Oh, and I'll get all the money for it as well.

As far as the iPhone is concerned itself, it's clearly a fantastic success, but the majority of people who bought it because it's cool, not because of ease-of-use, but because of marketing, and little features that make it look cool. Ease-of-use is something that you just expect from Apple. However, it's still a waste of money when compared to equivalent phones.

[ChrisC]

@Julian Smart

My thoughts exactly. Although I never got much further than tweaking the example code provided with the old devkit (back then I had a SPV E200, which wouldn't have let me run the sort of mobile apps I'd have been interested in trying to create), it at least gave me the ability to try my hand at writing mobile apps with no financial outlay. Now, with several more years of programming experience under my belt, and a WinMo device in my pocket which is more than capable of running the stuff I'd like to try out, I find myself unable to do so unless I first stump up the cash for a non-Express edition of Visual Studio. And that's not going to happen.

C'mon MS, you've already worked your way into the good books of quite a few desktop coders with your VS Express releases (myself included - I'm still primarily a Delphi user because of the years of experience I've built up with it through the Personal editions, but I find myself turning to VC# more and more these days), isn't it time you did the same for mobile coders too?

[Dave Cumming]

Defending Apple

I think the main reason you'll see greater defence of Apple than anything else is simply because some weird people feel the need to tell world+family how much they dislike Apple and won't buy their products. No attacks, there would be no defence. When an article is posted about the new Sony, Nokia or whatever you don't get a torrent of abuse from iPhone owners saying how evil, horrible and wicked those companies are do you? In fact most other phone or computer reviews/articles you barely get a comment at all. Possibly as someone who has no intention or desire to buy the latest Nokia won't read the article in the first place. If you don't want an iPhone, fine, we get it, STOP READING THE SODDING ARTICLES. Sheesh.

So to sum up, the day the people who have a strange and frankly quite scary hatred of a technology company and its products stop posting their hate ridden postings then perhaps you'll see fewer attempts to defend Apple as there simply won't be the need.

[Juillen 1]

A mixed bag..

Microsoft may not be dominant. There again, nothing else seems to have that truly overwhelming dominance either, which as far as I'm concerned is a great thing.

Half the problems we have are that MS dominance in the market has given a huge target for attackers to aim at, and no great incentive to innovate (which is why we had Vista, the Windows ME of today).

The day any one of these achieves complete dominance, I'll worry, as then you'll have one interface and way of doing things, and that's your lot. Use it or don't join the game.

Personally, I really enjoy my iPhone; second Apple product I've had (got a Mac over 10 years ago and it was good, but ended up with PCs as the main boxes instead), but the iPhone experience was far superior (purely subjectively) in 'feel' between my older phones and this than the experience from PC to Mac.

Hopefully they'll all have a share of the winnings, and keep the competition and innovation fierce (much like it was in the heyday of home computers back in the early 80s, before the PC saturated everything).

[magnetik]

@ThomH Re: be fair to Ballmer

"He was commenting on a $600 handset when the rest were free"

Nah, loads of phones have come out at similar prices. The Motorola RAZR cost $500 at launch and it wasn't even a smartphone.

Do a Google shopping search for "smartphone" and sort by price from high to low ..

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Never getting Apple

"If Apple bought out the best ever PC running Windows and the critter actually worked far better than a non-Apple PC I have a feeling that these NEVER people will stick to their guns and not buy one, obviously cutting something off from the front of their face."

Err, you can buy a 24" iMac (probably the best PC in the world) and install Vista or Windows 7 onto it. No need for Mac OS X at all.

I recommend to my clients with money to burn looking for a decent PC to do exactly this.

[The Other Steve]

Ballmer is a fucking disaster and the WinMo dev team are his bitches

Variosuly (and unattributed, as I've spent 18 hours in front of a debugger, and I can barely see)

@Winmo not a phone OS

That is of course entirely correct. WinMo is a general purpose OS for smart devices. It's quite decent from both a user and developer POV on, say, a PDA. It truly sucks at being a phone OS 'out of the box', largely because the interface sucks a fat one.

@Third party utils needed/HTC interface is better.

This is also true, but is due to the nature of the beast. WinMo never tried to be anything other than a shrunken windows, and it shows. From the POC of moby OEMs, Android and iPhone platforms offer a far better user experience out of the box, if I buy WinMo I'm going to have to develop an interface layer myself. This can be done, the facilities are in the OS (Touchflo is gorgeous, e.g.) but that's dev time I could have spent adding other value.

WPF on WinMo (if it ever happens) will alleviate this somewhat, but probably not enough. MS need to ditch their attachment to a mini doze UI and build in a framework that allows the entrire UI shell to be easily replaced or themed. Repeated requests to the WinMo dev team for such features (and many others) have been ignored, and in fact the WinMo dev team are mostly a bunch of arrogant proicks when it comes to dealing with developers.

@Tools

Yes, a biggie, and more of a potential show stopper than one might imagine. Once there were free tools, Embedded C++ and all the emulators you could eat. Now not so much. Free editions of MS' dev tools exist, but they won't target smart devices, you have to pony up for that. This doen't appear to foster a culture of massive amounts of app development. Palm, Android and iPhone dev tools are zero cost. You can still use EVC++ 4, it's even listed on the WinMo developer centre downloads, but you can't install the newer SDKs without VS >= 2005. Fail.

@Appstore

MS are going to build their own own, but it will probably be shit, and they plan to charge unreasonable fees to developers. Bastards. OTOH there are still far more WinMo apps

in the world than there are iPhone apps on the Appstore, they just haven't all been collected in one place.

Also, the licensing model sucks, MS refuse to issue updates to the OS (which would be insanely complicated due to the licensing model anyway, since it forces each licensee to effectively create their own build) and refuses to update software like IE. Which is stupid, because the mobile version of IE is a steaming pile of elephant faeces that should never have been released. You want a new IE, you need a new OS, you want a new OS, you have to buy a new device. Well fuck you, ballmer.

The sad thing is that under the hood WinMo is a reasonable general purpose OS, there is a massive developer base with easily transferable skill sets, and it can even be forced into being a pretty sexy OS for a smartphone, something it really wasn't intended for, as ably demonstrated by HTC. Theres no reason why the can't make massive inroads into the mobile market.

But they won't, because the product dev team are monumentally arrogant, ignore the developer base, work stupidly slowly. I don't who said MS were throwing money at WinMo, it doesn't show) and are wedded to a set of outdated development road maps and sales strategies.

They won't ditch these, despite much waliling and gnashing of teeth from developers and partners, because well, they know best! Presumably as demonstrated by their massive market share. Idiots.

This is the kind of culture fostered by the half man, half ape, hairy retard Ballmer, last of the old guard ego maniacs at MS. He can't quite grasp how to operate in markets that he doesn't have a monopoly in, and it shows. He also can't deal with the idea that innovations can flow upwards, or that people at the leaf ends of the org tree might know better. Fuckers still wedded to the Simonyi model, and it shows.

As someone said, he is a disaster. There is, now, quite a good company trying to escape from the belly of the ugly redmond beast, the language dev teams and the research guys are actually starting to come up with some neat stuff, rather than just stealing everyone else's, but MS will remain a hairy screaming bastard maniac of a company until the rest of Bill and Steve's Simonyi-ite disciples have fucked off to enjoy their yachts and stock options.

Meh.

[Anonymous Coward]

@windywoo

"prattle from Apple fans. The success of the iPhone, (and most Apple products for that matter) comes down to marketing and an incessantly gullible and vapid crowd of posers."

Well said that man/woman!

The iPhone is nothing more than a previous generation handheld with an eye candy interface

for the "OOooooo shiny!" crowd.

Windows mobile is still a turd however.

[magnetik]

@deadbeef

Even if 99% of all iPhone apps are crap you'd still be left with 500 useful ones to fill up your phone.

Dunno why people get so hung up about the crap apps. There are crap apps on every platform, and they outnumber the good ones by a vast amount. Face it, life is about finding gems amongst the pile of rubbish; be it songs, movies, internet sites, gadgets or apps.

[John Wilson]

@shakje

"As far as the iPhone is concerned itself, it's clearly a fantastic success, but the majority of people who bought it because it's cool, not because of ease-of-use"

The majority of people? That's a pretty big claim, and like the majority of such claims is most likely without any basis in fact.

"However, it's still a waste of money when compared to equivalent phones."

Can you please enlighten me, then, as to what the equivalent phone is? Here's what I want in my iPhone replacement: an iPod that synchs seamlessly with my mac. A telephone and contacts list that synchs seamlessly with my mac. A phone. A proper voicemail application. GPS. The device should be small and light, whilst having a suitably sized screen. It must offer e-mail and useable web browsing - ideally I'd like the web-browser to synch with the bookmarks on my mac.

Whilst there are phones that perform one or more of those functions, there are none - that I am aware of - that do them all and synch seamlessly with my mac. This is why I no longer use my Palm T|X: they gave up providing decent support for the mac.

[Jessica Werkz]

@boltar

'for the "OOooooo shiny!" crowd.'.

Pathetic.

[Doug Glass]

BOB

They should have revived the BOB team and set them loose.

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy things. Buy things from we.

@Nic 3

"... the device works well and is a pleasure to use"

So's my cock, but I don't feel the need to fiddle with it 20 times a minute and then share my wonderful experience online.

@Simon Banyard

"How many normal consumers do you know that have an iPod of some description?"

I admit it - I have one and I was fooled into buying it because I wanted to look cool and the other walkmen looked a bit clunky, and you're no-one if you don't have an iPod. So last Christmas I got one. Initially I thought it was great - I could watch tiny movies, and listen any music I wanted, but slowly, inexorably, that fucking wheel began to annoy the piss out of me and now I really can't be arsed with the fucking thing any more. The earphones give me earache, my music sounds better on my stereo at home and I have to use stupid fucking iTunes if I want to put music on the bloody thing. Now I use it once a day at most.

I will never buy an iPhone. Once bitten, twice shy.

"I'd argue that the majority of people that have bought the iPhone aren't Apple fanbois, just regular consumers that have bought a well marketed a eminently useable product."

And oh God aren't they delighted to tell you about it every minute of the day? Look at the pictures of my children on my iPhone, look at this picture of some chairs I took on my iPhone, look at the picture of the floor I took on my iPhone - look, look shiny thing - shiny thing. Look at the shiny thing. No longer feel empty and frantic.

Oh look - a flashing light. Oooooh.

[Anonymous Coward]

@AC 19/08/09 10:56 GMT

What's it like in your ivory tower? Get over yourself! The response wasn't at the criticism of Apple, but since your delicate sensibilities were harmed, I'll say it without "expletives". windywoo said that I, as an iPhone owner, am part of an "incessantly gullible and vapid crowd of posers." Now, I take great offence to that and I know that the individual wouldn't have the cojones to say it to my face. I may be taking it too personally. I may may need to lighten up a bit, but every article about Apple has comments that are filled with the sort of vitriol and rhetoric that windywoo posted. In short, I've had enough. I also pointed out the inaccuracies and prejudices in his/her post (we don't know which as, like you, they are a coward that seems not to have the courage of their convictions). If you can bare the terrible an vulgar expletives in my post you will see that. As for the "It's not just this fellow either. Why is it that criticism of Apple evokes such strong emotions? It's almost like it's seen as blasphemy. One would get less response insulting Islam in the middle of Tehran." comment, I'm pretty sure that we've all seen as bad, if not far worse from Microsoft and Linux fans on these very comment boards. The Tehran comment is a bit OTT for someone so morally superior...

[Sarah Bee]

tsk

This argument is beyond ridiculous. Just stop it. None of this stuff is remotely important.

Now go out and smell a goddamn flower, you loons.

[Levente Szileszky]

While current iPhone OS is a joke at best, WinMo is architecurally FLAWED

Title says it all.

iCrap is just what it is: a limited, single-tasking phone which can simultaneously do a couple of things and all app has to please The Higher Authority of Steve Jobs And His Ilks (buh-bye Google Voice, you didn't please our satanic partner, AT&T a.k.a. NSA's mass communication eavesdropping arm) - however it does not change the fact that Windows Mobile, similarly to *ANY* Windows, has a FLAWED underlying architecture which, also similarly to all Windows 'til date, causes the constant random lags, slowdowns, frozen execution, missed touches etc

I'm a long-time WinMo user - I started with CE on a Jornada about a decade ago! - and yet I really think in its current form (running v6.5 on a SE X1) Windows Mobile is "LIFE INCOMPATIBLE", it has to go it's so annoying.

Yes, I always like HTC's phones and I looove the open app market but I cannot stand the constant little problems with this PoS WinMo (and my phone is the fastest available WinMo hardware platform out there.)

Come Sony Ericsson with Android - Gogle must give up app control - and save our souls or come Palm with WebOS; either way I will not cry after Windows Mobile.

It's got its chance but never made it... MS had *YEARS* to step up to the plate while Symbian was just screwing around but Microsoft, as always, managed to blew it completely, due to their sheer incompetence (as always.)

[OffBeatMammal]

where's the keyboard

I don't deny the iPhone has a certain shiny object charm, but for me it doesn't hit the mark. I hate the virtual keyboard and as I send more email from my phone travelling on business a decent keyboard and a robust, fully functional connection to Exchange are critical things.

Sure, my WinMo phone may not be the prettiest thing in the world but the battery lasts all day, the keyboard is easy to use and as a bonus I have great apps for Twitter, Facebook, tracking my bike rides etc ... and for me it's a better fit. For many they are happy with the iPhone so I salute you, but don't try and tell me that your device is intrinsically and morally superiour to the one that fits my needs better

I know a lot of folks love their Blackberries but that's more for funcationality but as WinMo improves that line will blur even more - just look at the leaked 6.5 builds on sites like XDA-Developers.com. I trued being a crackberry addict but the screen put me off

I guess my point it that WM isn't the prettiest but it takes a while to turn a battleship around. WM took the market for PDAs from the original Palm and Psions and bolted a phone OS on and really created that market. iPhone came in with no heritage or backwards compatability to worry about and is nimble today.... but when they've got the 10+ years or history behind them that WM has just how agile are they going to be.

I, for one, welcome the continued choice and competition in the smartphone market - hopefully improving the user experience and driving the price down

[Anonymous Coward]

My 2c

@The Cube

"1) It freezes up or hangs at..."

I have used WinMobile for the last 4 years or so and I can count the number of times any of them has crashed on three fingers.

"2) It can't do more than one thing properly"

I think it a matter of perception - accordingly I don't argue this point.

"3) Windows is not a real time operating system, when a phone call arrives, stop doing whatever Windows crap you are doing and let me answer the fecking call."

My experience is exactly as you require rather than you describe. Whenever a text message or call came in it took precedence immediately.

"4) You have to install loads of third party utilities to make it work the way it should have out of the box"

Maybe, but (a) this is a matter of opinion as to "work the way it should" and (b) the vast majority of apps are free anyway.

"5) You get fleeced by MS who want money for an 'upgrade' to a version of the OS that doesn't even fix the bugs in the version you already paid for (working A2DP anyone?)"

Again not in my experience. I have never had to pay MS to upgrade WinMob and never suffered any perceived detriment for not doing so.

However saying all that, I now have an iPhone 3GS and I really love it. Really, really love it.

Conversely I hate Apple Macs.

@Windywoo

Basically you have ranted on for a long time regarding the comparative merits of v1 of a phone you don't use (and is now on v3+) and v6.x of a phone you have never used, and ironically you want other people to stfu??????

[Levente Szileszky]

RE: My 2c @Lee

"I have used WinMobile for the last 4 years or so and I can count the number of times any of them has crashed on three fingers."

Ahh, PLEAHHHHSSSEEEE.

*ANY* reguler WinMo user knows it's utter NONSENSE. You're in complete denial.

Yes, I just called you a liar unless you have some cognitive disorder that prevents you to interpret your own words or your memories.

"Whenever a text message or call came in it took precedence immediately."

Except if it's very busy with other apps it takes long SECONDS (up to 10s or more) to bring up the UI that allows you to take the call (forget the buttons, they either work or not and OS has its own will anyway.)

"Maybe, but (a) this is a matter of opinion as to "work the way it should" and (b) the vast majority of apps are free anyway."

No, it's not - it's compared to any other current mobile OS and no, it's not true, most are NOT free (perhaps confusing shareware, 'nagware' and freeware?)

"I now have an iPhone 3GS and I really love it. Really, really love it."

Interesting - so you are fine with a single-tasking OS that stops doing whatever it does to launch another app, offers you a closed and controlled app market etc..?

[Levente Szileszky]

@The Cube RE: (working A2DP anyone?)

Ehh? A2DP works fine for me since WinMo 5.0 - it's Bluetooth, that's an utter PoS protocol, should be outlawed completely.

[Juan Inamillion]

@Simon Banyard

Fantastic mate.

The most salient point? "The average consumer doesn't care what a narcissistic little prick like you thinks."

Why? Because 'windywoo' and his ilk are clearly licking each other's arseholes so much and they can't comprehend the average user simply wants to USE the damn thing.

Perfick.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a fan boy...

...but I really like my iphone 3GS....and I liked it even more 3 hours after I bought it when I jail broke it and started downloading shit from Cydia.

But each to their own.

[AceRimmer]

I recommend an Iphone...

I have a sony ericsson X1 with WM6.1 SPB shell and pointui installed (i can then pick my front end as my mood take me)

I've been very pleased with it so far... i've got a few nice applications installed, 98% of the time it runs fine. Smooth and error free

A few friends who have seen it love the setup and ask if I would recommend it to them

To which I always answer NO get an iPhone

As good as windows mobile can be, you really need to be an absolute fucking geek to have the patience to get it into a working condition.

Luckily I just about fall into the right category of person to happily coexist with a windows mobile device. Most of my friends are not.

[Karim Bourouba]

Nonsense

This looks like a typically US centric article to me. I dont see MS losing the smartphone market to Apple at all. If anything, they will loose their meagre share to either RIM, Nokia or any manufacturer deploying Android.

The iPhone is nice, but it is just an MP3 player with a fairly bog standard phone attached. I dont see how business will be taken with this as a tool, how exactly are they going to provide an entertainment device to their staff in order to do work? RIM is definitely providing very good handets now and Nokia may wake up and see what is happening. But any market share they loose will more than likely be hoovered up by Andriod based devices - not jesusPhones.

I admire the church of scientology like zeal they have programmed their cultists with, and i admire the kick in the arse that they gave to the mobile phone world - but if you look at it objectively all they have done is give us a new input method, thats it and even then its a reimagining of the touch screen. There is the store, designed to syphon money directly from our bank accounts to Apple, negating any online store the network may have already (poorly) implemented.

Sure, the iPhone will always do well, but I dont see it making its way into the breast pockets of big business any time soon.

No doubt the Apple fanboi-tards will hit this post as well.

Paris, as she has an iPhone and doesnt know what all the fuss is about - just as long as she can post her facebook updates.

[Hedley Phillips]

Windows Mobile -> Apple

Like many here, I used to use Windows Mobile.

I Had an O2 Exec (HTC) and stuck with it through two years of crashes, hangs, reboots, missed calls as it was too slow to bring up the GUI to allow me to take the call.. no need to go on as I think it has all been covered before.

My neighbour, also an O2 Exec owner switched to the iPhone and raved about it. I was a little wary as I have never been a fan of Apples' overpriced shiny, magpie attracting products but he kept on raving about it and finally, after spending two evenings at his house, using, testing and getting to know it, I bought one.

I still remember his quote on the day mine arrive... "welcome to the future... it works" and how right he was. The iPhone does just work.

The iPhone integrates with Exchange quicker and easier than Mobile and it's handling of WIFI is so much easier and that is just the start...

Microsoft have a long long way to go before I would even look at their smart phone offering, and while Ballmer & Co are spouting off in denial, they only have themselves to blame.

And no we are not "idiot consumers" lured in my marketing, both of us are techies, he is a database developer and I a systems manager/teaboy (more the tea boy really :-). We just like a smartphone that works. simple

[Ben Schofield]

@Jimmy Floyd 09:08

'So, we have Form vs Functionality. iPhone vs WM. Is there nothing out there that can provide both?'

Hello. My name is Android. I'm here to bust a move against your Slow Jams.

[Sentient]

iPhone for everybody?

If they really want to sell that many they will have to do something on their price:

http://www.play.com/Mobiles/Mobile/4-/10674553/Apple-iPhone-3G-S-32GB-Sim-Free-Unlocked-3-0-Megapixel-Mobile-Phone/Product.html

Me myself I won't pay more than spend more than 200 euro, maybe 300 if it's real nice, on a mobile.

[I didn't do IT.]

@Jessica Werkz

Fart stats (last month, sorry):

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/10/app_stor_turns_one/

"A search for the word "fart" on the App Store, for example, now turns up 389 exemplars..."

Same article touts (approximately) 55,600 apps, which would be 0.7% fart apps. Not as bad as original (AC) poster, but not as innocent as originally thought. Overall, I would say this wasn't too bad - given the massive attraction plebs on this side of the pond take to their automated flatulence cravings. At 79 mil of 82 mil, Americans hold 96.34% of the iPhones in the world. I guess that would show that apps _can_ drive hardware sales. :)

Flames, of course. Always be courteous and light a match, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

@shakje

If you've tried NetBeans and found it wanting, I seriously suggest looking at IntelliJ. IMHO it's a lot better than Eclipse or NetBeans (and worth paying for). I've not used VS since v6, so couldn't comment on how it compares to the latest VS. Most technology stacks (such as J2EE, Spring, Hibernate, etc) are exceptionally well integrated into the editor.

[Anonymous Coward]

Webster!

won't participate in this commentary....He's busy answering his iPhone.....

[Levente Szileszky]

RE: iPhone @Hedley Philips

" still remember his quote on the day mine arrive... "welcome to the future... it works" and how right he was. The iPhone does just work."

For YOU.

For the rest of us your crappy virtual keyboard does NOT work, your limited resolution does NOT work, your nonexistent multitasking does NOT work.

"The iPhone integrates with Exchange quicker and easier than Mobile"

Ehh? Are you high?

" and it's handling of WIFI is so much easier"

Seriously: what are you talking about?

What's easier than turning it on and let it connect automatically as I do on my X1?

" and that is just the start..."

Yeah, exactly - try to use a VoIP apps you are NOT allowed to install e.g. Google Voice...

Let's stop with the Apple Kool-Aid, shall we?

ICrap is perfect for people who do not care about several things some people care - real multitasking, open platform with no Higher Installation Authority a.k.a. no need for Steve "The God" Jobs' Approval Seal to b able to install something on MY phone, they cannot REMOVE an app THEY didn't like etc.

I can get new batteries, I have a really nice, real keyboard, on which I can type 10x faster than anything else, I have 800x480 resolution which in turn makes RDP/VNC actually a useful, real option for remoting, I can use it on ANY network not only the world's SLOWEST, fake-3G AT&T network etc etc etc.

Apple's entry was a great thing for the market because they showed how important to have a highly responsive system, a great UI experience - now all the mfrs got the message.

Unfortunately WinMo is inherently flawed so our - real multitasking, real PDA/smartphone lovers - hopes are limited to Android and RIM, perhaps Symbian too, nothing else.

Apple always remains a closed, personal platform of Jobs and his ilks and I have zero intention to rely on *HIS* Approval Seal for everything.

[The Other Steve]

@crashies, woe is you, but as usual ...

If your WinMo phone is crashing frequently, it's likely not the OS, it's the 3rd party apps you, your OEM or your network provider have stuffed into it. Stability rally isn't much of an issue with the core OS.

As usual, the fault for all crashes washes up at Redmond's front door, when it doesn't belong there. There are lots of bad things to be said about the current crop of windows OSes (sit in, or even near to, my dev environment for a day and you will hear many) but instability is not one of them, not any more.

If your MS system is crashy, look at your app vendors, and particularly at your hardware vendors who have probably shipped shitty device drivers because device drivers are hard and they can't be arsed putting in the dev time to test them properly, lazy fuckers.

Or look at your sys admin, many problematic windows boxen are administered by the sort of person you wouldn't want to sit next to on the bus because they might drool on you.

You must first eliminate all of these things with a debugger and/or a cluebat before you start shouting about OS instability. And frankly, I'm all in favour of eliminating app devs and admins who can't do there jobs properly because the scarcity would make day rates go up, which would be required to compensate for the decrease in work caused by such mongs. Work less, earn more.

For winmo this will improve over time as people move to develop using .NET CF, (at which point the retards writing crashy apps will only be able to show themselves up by crashing the app, not spoiling your whole day) and that will happen when MS make the tools free, not before.

Until then most people will be using EVC++, and most people should just stay the fuck away from C++ and play with their crayons. And that goes for the teams working for most of the mobile operators who just don't seem to be able to supply a winmo phone without cramming it full of crudware.

Double meh.

It is of course possible to code Java on WinMo, but unless MS pull their heads out of there arses and ship a proper J2ME, which will never happen now that Sun have GPLd it, this is not a universal solution

[John 104]

@Simon Banyard

Simon Banyard

Touched a nerve with you eh? I'd have to say you are the epitomy of the apple fanboi. You are completely incensed over this topic to the point of hurling explitives and insults to people you don't even know! You need to learn to chill out.

Quote:

I, as an owner of a Mac and an iPhone, am sick of reading some of the vitriol that cowards hiding behind pseudonyms or AC like you levee at me because of my choices as a consumer. I don’t pontificate about the products. I like them because they work *for me*, and if asked for an opinion, I give it. You might not agree. Get over it and grow the fuck up."

end quote.

You are giving more than an opinion here, "mate". You are screaming at the world because you love a product and somebody else doesn't. I don't like Apple products. I like my WinMo BJ2, it does what I want it to and is reliable. If somebody doesn't like it, fine, whatever. I'm not going to go 3 shades of red. Know why? Because I just don't care that much about it to get pissed!

As for AC's saying things to your face, come on over to Seattle any time and I'd be happy to call you vapid poser to your face. You might get mad and punch me in the snout, but the rest of the apple users here (and there are a lot) would just stare with blank faces - that is until they found an app at the store that told them what to do...

[jsk]

Oooohhh Kaaayyyy

@ Anonymous Coward & @ Hugh_Pym & @ karakalWitchOfTheWest:

Truly amazing how people will post a reply after only reading half of the first sentence of a comment. If you had bothered to read the second half: Yes, the US is only a small part of the total world cell phone market, but it is the biggest in the Western World (and with AT&T's current exclusive and TWO year contract, selling a new iPhone to existing customers isn't a reliable once a year sale). If Apple maintains its 15 to 20% market share of smart phones, it will have to have a very successful rollout in China to get to 82 million units a year (India's been a dud so far). (And the global economy is going to have to pull out of its current slump to afford a larger percentage of expensive smart phones.) Remember for the vast majority of people in the western world, smart phones are a luxury; for the third world, beyond expensive.

I think you're being a little too fanboyish if you think that something as expensive as an iPhone (and as network dependent as it is for good service in each area) is going to be as big a seller as the iPod has proven to be (which is cheaper, has no contract, nor network dependence).

P.S. Just why is it that fanboys take any criticism of their favorite product of the week as a personal insult?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Oooohhh Kaaayyyy by jsk

"ruly amazing how people will post a reply after only reading half of the first sentence of a comment."

I think you will find my reply did take into account your comment re China. However, let me elaborate on that point first:

The article mentions that the projection of 82 million iphones is for 2012. Who knows what will happen by then. Maybe the China iPhone will be launched. Perhaps it will be stripped down, it will certainly be cheaper than now. You are assuming that we will always have iPhones priced the way they are now.

Secondly, you say that the US is the "biggest [market] in the Western World" and that "for the vast majority of people in the western world, smart phones are a luxury". It is this point that we 3 repliers were reacting against. Sure the US is the biggest *single* market, but you seem to think that it totally dominates the rest of the Western World combined. Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the CIA factbook the US only has the 8th highest per capita GDP. I happen to live in Australia, where the US led global financial crisis has barely made a dent in our economy or consumption. iPhones are out of stock or very low in all 4 of our telephone companies who supply the iPhone (gasp!, we don't have a monopoly iPhone supplier here).

Lastly, you call me a fanboi. I do not own an iPhone. I do not own a Mac. How does that make me a fanboi? I think the 3 repliers were commenting your your assumption that the US is *vastly huger*than the rest of the world combined, not out of fanboi-ism.

[Anonymous Coward]

@John 104

No nerves touched here really, you chaps across the pond must be really sensitive. You are reading waaaaay too much into the quote you used (nice "Fox 'News'" style editing there). Fanboi? So, because I choose to buy products from a vendor that you or windywoo or any other vacuous troll disapprove of and call me and every other consumer that chooses Apple names, I cannot respond? I can't recall as many posts slagging off other platforms as readily as most slag off the iPhone, with most of it just hearsay or at best personal conjecture (5 minutes in an Apple store just doesn't count). At what point in either post do I say that all other platforms are crap and that people who buy, say a WinMo BJ2, are arrogant and geeky zealots that only use the device to be 'alternative', and are therefore pretentious? I don't. Because I *don't* think that. I believe it is your right as a consumer to choose and to use what ever device you want. In fact the closest I got is perhaps pointing out how well the iPhone is doing in the market place. Do *I* think my choice is better? Yes. Do I think I'm a better person than you or anyone else because of this choice? No. See, that's where people like you get it wrong. As stated, I am personally a little bit sick of constantly (and it is constant - look at *any* Reg article referencing Apple or the iPhone if you wish) seeing posts by vapid narcissists who think that their opinion is lore. Hey, nothing wrong with not liking Apple or it products. That's an individuals right as a consumer, although hating a business is a little OTT - this isn't football (both sorts will do here). I do have a problem with it when I am told, repeatedly, that *I'm* an idiot for buying "over-priced junk" from Apple and that I only bought the products because I think it makes me look cool and get callen fanboi when I say that *I* like it! STFU! I've been asked about the iPhone by friends and relatives, and I have told them that *I* think it's the best phone that *I* have ever owned, because *I* do - it's the first one that I've had and not found myself counting down the contract. Some people only have Nokia. Are they fanboi's? Are they exhibiting brand loyalty? Or, here's a scary thought, they just like them. Why is it OK for people like windywoo to have a problem with that, but not OK for someone to pull them up on it? Fanboi? Am I a Dell fanboi because I have a Dell laptop and netbook? Am I a Windows fanboi because I like what Microsoft have done with Windows 7? No, I must be an Ubuntu fanboi, because I like how it runs on my netbook. I am an Office fanboi because I think the ribbon interface is a truely excellent example of UI design. I'm also an oxygen fanboi, because I like breathing. So yes, I suppose I am a fanboi, certainly of technology and computing, and obviously breathing. Perhaps I shouldn't have fed this particular troll, and I should let windywoo's opinions wash over me, but then again, why should a coward like that get away with it? Levente Szileszky and Karim Bourouba have both posted some truley shocking examples of fanboism and trolling here - I'm not biting, I'm certainly not 'upset' by it. I think that they are wrong. Are you going to have a go at Levente? He seems to be *really* upset. Or is your particular prejudice strictly for Apple users? As I said, everyone is entitled to an opinion, even you.

[Hugh_Pym]

@ Oooohhh Kaaayyyy by jsk

The link below might be out of date and only a projection but it gives a sort of idea about the relative markets in different geographical areas.

Basically they reckon that 2008 the iphone had 20% of a north American Smartphone market of 40M units but only 8% of the EMEA (Europe, Middle east and Africa) smartphone market of 65M units. Similar figures for the rest of the world. projections for 2009 show a apple gaining a larger percentage of a larger market. Still only projections I know but sales figures are hard to come by. They suggest that the US is a large but saturated and depressed market. The rest of world is a larger market and it is growing and more open.

Don't get angry. You asked where the estimated sales might come from. We where just trying to give you a clue.

http://www.ipodobserver.com/ipo/article/Piper_Jaffray_Reiterates_45M_iPhone_Sales_in_2009/

[elderlybloke]

I Don't have an IPhone or use MS products

Doubt that I ever will.

I use Ubuntu on my apparently redundant thing called a Computer, and a Cell Phone that sits it my car and gets used only in emergency situations.

I expect I am not conditioned to this buying the latest shiny gadget or MSs latest expensive OS.

Must go now for my afternoon nap.

Peace and Joy to you all.