Academics have 'no confidence' in Edinburgh University's response to its Oracle disaster

The University of Edinburgh academic representative body has issued a statement of no confidence in the institution over its disastrous Oracle migration, which left research students and suppliers unpaid. The Scottish university’s Senate, a representative body made up of students and academics, said that management had "yet to …

[Eclectic Man]

Update

For the update statement, my interpretation is:

"Oh Shit! It still doesn't work and we don't know why. We don't know how to get it to work or how long it will take. We don't have a work-around to get people paid. This is an unmitigated disaster and we don't even have a back-out plan to return to the system that used to work. Please leave us alone until we've made some progress."

[Excused Boots]

Re: Update

Now as much as I tend to dislike this knee-jerk reaction, then maybe it is time; as my American colleague tend to put it; to ‘lawyer up’. Anyone who has so much lost out on a penny due to, what does look like a complete failure of due diligence, or maybe competence on many parties involved, should probably wade in.

Now what would this achieve? Materially for those involved, very little, the various lawyers would probably be able to afford to bye another yacht! But the fallout from the bad publicity, ‘and on the BBC news tonight, Edinburgh University’s management do seem to be all serially incompetent, so don’t go there hoping for a degree’, could be considerable.

But, look, this crap does seem to happen with sadly increased regularity. Now we all know that sometimes people make mistakes, nobody is perfect. But if this had all gone to plan, then no doubt, those responsible would have claimed (well deserved) extra compensation. Where are the sanctions, when the same people screw up and it all goes ‘nipples north’?

[GreenJimll]

Re: Update

Encouraging less students to go to the University, and thus less income to support the functioning of the institution, including paying its staff, might not be the in long term best interest of their staff. Possibly not the fallout the unpaid staff and researchers would want?

Suppliers on the other hand probably have less to lose by this strategy.

[Severus]

Incomplete requirements definition + delusional planning timescales + inadequate testing + big bang deployment = FUBAR.

That's without the "It's Oracle, double your budget" factor.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've run a few MRP and ERP transitions and in my experience the seeds of shit are planted very early on if you don't get on top of the following:-

1 the client has very well documented procedures (this is usually true)

2 the client mostly thinks its procedures are followed - they mostly are, but the non-compliances and workarounds will kill you if you don't pick them up now.

3 a lot of stuff is processed off-system (usually in Excel and often using undocumented-macros written by a bloke who left 3 years ago and now lives in France) mostly driven by management desire for pretty colours in reports or because one department is too important to be bothered with petty details like understanding and using ERP.

4 Data integrity will be dodgy; people will have made imaginative use of the data structures for stuff they weren't designed for - like using customer address fields for CRM information because the ERP doesn't have a CRM module or using a foreign currency field for recording special tax/pricing agreements or including legally-required allergy information in a notes field that appears on your screen but isn't visible to people with different creds to you.

Once all this is understood (it can take many weeks) you can have a go at defining user requirements with the users. The management & the department that's too important to use ERP will kick up a fuss about their custom stuff being vital and company destroying if anything is changed and they haven't got time to learn how to do it differently because they've got a proper job to do. Then you spend a day with the ERP sales team and get a ROM** quote for the likely ERP customization and maintenance deltas, at which point everyone gets on board with the fact they'll find a way to make the standard product work (they are lying, by the way) or they won't be having a pay rise for ten years.

Having got all that done - you can start thinking about planning a procurement and a transition.

**it's getting harder to get ROM quotes for customization cos the suppliers treat them as real prices they could be held to. I think that before long the big MRP/ERP suppliers won't be offering custom products - it's not worth the hassle for them, even at eye-watering prices.

[Doctor Syntax]

"like using customer address fields for CRM information"

I suppose it would be better than using them for customer addresses in one accounts package I once saw. Address lines about half the length of what one might reasonably expect to find occasionally and about 75% of the length of at least one line in most addresses.

[Timop]

That sounds hard work, why don't we just skip about every step of that and trust that someone will figure out a way to fix the gigantic dumpster fire when the reality kicks in for the project team and/or the customer.

Yeah we have messed up all our previous projects but our luck will turn eventually.

[Anonymous Coward]

ht to op

Thanks for the insight. Useful reminder about these kinds of pitfalls in migrations.

[xyz]

Thanks....

I've got a meet with a C-suite next week and I might use your list to "help" them understand shit. Them Excel warriors get everywhere and the ref to the macro bloke who left 3 years ago is just sublime.

[Kane]

"usually in Excel and often using undocumented-macros written by a bloke who left 3 years ago and now lives in France"

Dabbsy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Parse error: "Acronym not expanded on first use: ROM"

I'm going to assume that it doesn't mean Read-Only Memory on this occasion…

[cat_mara]

My guess it’s a “Rough Order of Magnitude” estimate

[Martin Gregorie]

Another bit of missing information about this story...

...is just how many of the team that specified and designed the new system had hands-on experience of the one it was meant to replace?

And how many members of that team had previously implemented a financial system of similar scope and complexity?

If the answers are 'none' and 'none', then we know who to blame for the failure: those managing it. But, I bet THAT blame never lands where it deserves to.

[David Harper 1]

Echoes of Cambridge University's CAPSA fiasco

Connoisseurs of IT disasters may recall that Cambridge University had its own finance system migration fiasco in the late 1990s, which also featured Oracle's fine products. It became one of the case studies for the Open University's excellent M.Sc.-level module "Learning from Information System Failures". If the OU ever brings back that module, Edinburgh University's woes will make a good case study too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Echoes of Cambridge University's CAPSA fiasco

And Cambridge have just started projects to replace both their HR & finance systems. Maybe we're in line for a hat-trick of IT cock-ups.

[Korev]

Re: Echoes of Cambridge University's CAPSA fiasco

And Cambridge have just started projects to replace both their HR & finance systems. Maybe we're in line for a hat-trick of IT cock-ups.

As you're talking about Cambridge, shouldn't it be Trinity of IT cock-ups"?

[Cloudy Data]

Re: Echoes of Cambridge University's CAPSA fiasco

A Corpus of cock ups

[Auntie Dix]

Open University's excellent M.Sc.-level module "Learning from Information System Failures". If

I searched for "Learning from Information System Failures" and for individual keywords like failures and lesson but was unable to find it .. surely fault on my side. Would you kindly be able to point out this course to me

https://www.open.ac.uk/postgraduate/qualifications/f81

https://www.open.edu/openlearn/free-courses/full-catalogue

[Graham Newton]

Re: Echoes of Cambridge University's CAPSA fiasco

And also in 1999 the Council for the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils (CCLRC) which also involved Oracle and ended up being on the front page of Computer weekly and the subject of an inquiry by the public accounts committee (PAC).

[Paul Crawford]

A University of Edinburgh spokesperson has been in touch to say absolutely bugger all.

Fixed that part of the article.

[ChoHag]

This must be what earns the executives the big bucks: They said it in a much more reassuring way.

Well ... they used more words. Some of them were long! They probably have it under control.

[Doctor Syntax]

"They probably have it under control."

it, maybe but definitely not IT.

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy fix

Just upgrade to Oracle disaster 2.0

[Korev]

Re: Easy fix

In The Cloud with an AI Blockchain?

[hitmouse]

You expect a university to practice the skills it sells to students?

Can I interest in an Honorary LOL.D ?

[abend0c4]

These days, "academics have no confidence in University management" is pretty much the default state of most of those institutions. Universities don't even value the skills they sell to their students, let alone practice them.

[Sudosu]

So what does the letter do exactly?

A letter of no confidence, sounds like a scene from Third Rock from the Sun.

Judith Draper:

After reviewing all the testimony, the disciplinary committee unanimously votes to admonish Dr. Solomon.

Dr. Dick Solomon:

What does that mean?

Judith Draper:

You're officially admonished.

Dr. Dick Solomon:

Does that come with a pay cut?

Judith Draper:

No, but if there's another violation, you will be censured.

Dr. Dick Solomon:

Does that come with a pay cut?

Judith Draper:

No, but if that fails to stop you, you will be sanctioned, which means a thirty day suspension.

Dr. Dick Solomon:

With pay?

Judith Draper:

Yes, with pay.

Dr. Dick Solomon:

Well, that sounds pretty good. Could I be sanctioned right now?

Judith Draper:

No, we're adjourned.

[Franco]

Huh, not just the Government up here that can't manage projects then.

[Terry 6]

As the AC (prev) touched upon

S/he said "you can have a go at defining user requirements with the users"

And the uni bosses themselves said;

"The structure and terminology in People and Money are geared towards those with financial training and is exceptionally difficult for most people to use. It is not intuitive, and staff are regularly dedicating several working hours to tasks which should take a few minutes," the Senate explained."

And I and numerous others on El Reg have pointed out, time after time, no one ever sits down with the poor buggers that have to use this stuff to find out how it works for them, what they do, how they do it, what they need from the new system, and so on and so on. As to training in using new stuff. Forget it. Spend millions on buying a new system then begrudge a few quid to train people to use it properly.

[cat_mara]

Re: As the AC (prev) touched upon

Another issue I’ve encountered with ERP rollouts is because of the complexity of the endeavour, the temptation is to start training the users early on, because training is about the only task that can be scheduled with any certainty at the beginning of the project. This means there could be months, or even years, between users getting trained on the new system and actually using it in earnest, by which time they’ve probably forgotten most of what they were taught.

[Terry 6]

Re: As the AC (prev) touched upon

..or left/changed jobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: As the AC (prev) touched upon

This is something that they were definitely not guilty of, there were weeks...months between P&M going live and any training being put out.

[abstract]

Why don't they simply use excel 2003 and a USB key?

[Derezed]

Wow

They broke the cardinal rule of ERP implementation: everyone gets paid on time, full stop.

Also…some kind of non production system is in order?

I’d love to know what hideous manual tasks they were performing that couldn’t be completed in time. I vaguely remember CSV uploads of historical data and metadata but this was in the dark ages of 2010…this is 2023 where I assume they had an army of administrators keying in their forecasts and budgets and only realised nobody knew how to use the system and that the god awful web interface was a piece of shit after they started. Ooops.

Anyway, can’t AI just do this routine implementation now? What’s with the meat sacks getting in the way of our glorious new masters?

[ducatis'r us]

The old old story?

The migration was from on premise long standing Oracle applications. I wonder how much customisation specific to the University existed, especially in the Finance systems? Having been subjected to a migration to Oracle Cloud HCM a few years ago I remember the staggering number of forms with no relevance to us and having to use vague generically named fields instead of those specific to the company that we were familiar with from the old system. Factors like this could make the Finance systems particularly complex to migrate and use.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The old old story?

It wasn't a single system, there were several systems as previously some colleges were independent and/or had their own systems.

On topo of that it was mostly asking managers, and then go on to capture workflows with some but not all of the user groups.

They ignored the workflows from most user groups, to the point that some were not doable.

Then they had delay after delay, and after determining that they didn't have a minimum viable product they went on anyway, taking the systems down for a whole month, so they could "finish afterwards"

But the main issue is accountability.. they keep saying they are accountable but for them it is just a word.

Anon, as well, I prefer no stay anon on this.

[Derezed]

Re: The old old story?

Whatever the system they’ll be a back end uploader. I remember my migration and the complete anti climax of the data just flowing in. Took about half a day. We’d done it 4 times before then. The system was fully backed up before hand as a rollback if it went south. Shocking, shocking planning.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The old old story?

You wouldn't believe the mess they made on data migration - missed or completely by passed all the important stuff like key customer/supplier data and open transactions/invoices.

And they wonder why it was a disaster.

The senior staff running this project and the Inoapps partners should have had their marching orders a long time ago.

[Crypto Monad]

Re: The old old story?

They were probably sold the idea that a migration from an Oracle on-prem system to an Oracle cloud system would be very easy, because obviously.

I expect they are totally different systems but with confusingly similar names - like Microsoft's Active Directory and Azure Active Directory, or Skype and Skype for Business (RIP), or Windows and Windows Phone (RIP).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The old old story?

@Crypto Monad

Seems they were sold the idea by this lot.

https://www.inoapps.com/about/who-we-are

[Anonymous Coward]

ORACLE + University Management - talking to the staff that do the work = FUBAR

I worked at another institute that has had a successful implementation dealing with ORACLE. They've actually renamed the project as so many people had negative connotations. Instead of actually dealing with the problems.

[Tom Womack]

It's a pity that universities do not seem temperamentally suited to 'we had a vast and wide-ranging disaster with our Oracle implementation; we have managed to make it work reasonably well now; we will spin-off the better people in our internal IT group as a consultancy to help other universities have smaller and more confined disasters'.

Yes, UK universities are each a weird thing unto themselves, but they resemble one another rather more than any of them resembles the strongly hierarchically structured Wisconsin widget-works which SAP or Oracle ERP start off expecting to model.

A particular CAPSA problem seemed to be that 'a person capable of signing off expenses' and 'a thing against which expenses could be signed off' were both very heavyweight structures because there were expected to be about six of them in the company, whilst in a university every researcher got to be capable of signing off expenses against their own separate grant.