Europe's right-to-repair law asks hardware makers for fixes for up to 10 years

The European Commission has adopted a new set of right to repair rules that, among other things, will add electronic devices like smartphones and tablets to a list of goods that must be built with repairability in mind. The new rules [PDF] will need to be need to be negotiated between the European Parliament and member states …

[A Non e-mouse]

Whilst I applaud the right-to-repair, there also has to be the equivalent of a "right-to-use" i.e. No doing a Google and after 18 months shutting down the servers whiich allow your device to work. (I'm not even getting into the whole software update debate. I'll leave that for others.)

[Version 1.0]

A repair regulation requiring that not only are devices repaired, but they are designed to be repaired, will have a significant effect on the current climate issues. Think about all the efforts made to create all the items and components that we have to throw in the trash can when the phone battery dies, or a computer working great and running Windows 7 can't be upgraded to any of the later operating systems - virtually all of which have been "upgraded" to force users to throw away their old systems.

Microsoft keep upgraded their operating system, stopping old computers from being kept used. But think how life would go in America and a lot of other countries if the gun manufacturers keep "upgrading" their guns to use 1mm larger bullets every two of three years and then stop making the old bullet sizes.

[Anonymous Coward]

"But think how life would go in America and a lot of other countries if the gun manufacturers keep "upgrading" their guns to use 1mm larger bullets every two of three years and then stop making the old bullet sizes."

I'm currently trying to think of a downside to making it more expensive and / or difficult to own firearms, and I can't currently think of one.... I'm from the UK, and the "right to bear arms" is completely alien to me.

[VoiceOfTruth]

-> I'm from the UK, and the "right to bear arms" is completely alien to me.

In the UK, it is mostly criminals or the police that have guns. Congratulations. Yes, I know that farmers have them too.

[43300]

Yes, and we don't get school shootings regularly here either!

And while some criminals and police do certainly have guns, even among those grounps it's still only a minority.

[Aladdin Sane]

Everybody and their mums is packin' round here.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

It may be mostly the police and criminals that have guns in the UK, but I'm just fine with that; tight gun control indisputably reduces the number of gun-related deaths. (If you think otherwise, then you're an idiot: feel free to indicate this using the downvote button.)

Firearm-related death rate (per 100K pop.): US: 10.89. UK: 0.24. Yes. That's right. 45 times fewer.

[codejunky]

@Hubert Cumberdale

"Firearm-related death rate (per 100K pop.): US: 10.89. UK: 0.24. Yes. That's right. 45 times fewer."

Which is to focus on the method of death not deaths, or even violence. With no carry zones and restrictive states increasing the number of deaths and violence.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

Okay then. Homicide rate per 100k (2019) – US: 5.77. UK: 1.28. Interestingly, 4.5 times lower. Still not looking good – let me guess: that's somehow also caused by loony liberal lefties and their violation of your right to shoot them? Also note that more than half of gun deaths in the US are suicide. It's much harder to kill yourself over here, and that's a good thing.

[codejunky]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

@Hubert Cumberdale

"Okay then. Homicide rate per 100k (2019) – US: 5.77. UK: 1.28. Interestingly, 4.5 times lower. Still not looking good – let me guess: that's somehow also caused by loony liberal lefties and their violation of your right to shoot them?"

Sorry to hurt your feelings. Do you need me to call you a wambulance? Why did pointing out that simple fact of your complaint butt hurt you so? And I am not in the US and have no right to shoot anyone but dont cwy my wittle eyes out that other countries do things differently.

Another thing I will point out to you is your use of the US as a whole for the comparison with the UK. Yet each state is effectively its own country with the ability to regulate firearms in various ways. Not sure what the deviation is between how crimes are recorded between states too.

All I am pointing out to you is that while your comment might have been technically true, it was also entirely useless.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

Nicely done. Got any mum jokes?

[codejunky]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

@Hubert Cumberdale

"Nicely done. Got any mum jokes?"

"Also note that more than half of gun deaths in the US are suicide. It's much harder to kill yourself over here, and that's a good thing."

I have just noticed you edited your comment to add the above.

Maybe you consider it a good thing, maybe its a bad thing, maybe its a situational thing and maybe it comes down to opinion. But on the note of suicide it does mean people try different methods instead, some are fairly horrible methods causing serious everlasting damage if they are stopped from ending their own lives.

And no I dont know any your mum jokes but you can look some up while trying to understand what was wrong with your comment.

[MachDiamond]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

""Also note that more than half of gun deaths in the US are suicide. It's much harder to kill yourself over here, and that's a good thing.""

Using a gun to commit suicide is a bad choice. Too many ways to screw that up especially if you don't know much about firearms to start with and wind up in really bad shape afterwards.

[codejunky]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

@MachDiamond

"Using a gun to commit suicide is a bad choice. Too many ways to screw that up especially if you don't know much about firearms to start with and wind up in really bad shape afterwards."

Definitely not something you want to get wrong but the same can be said for trying to die by overdose (I know a couple of people) the organ damage can be life long bad too.

[Tom66]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

Only New Hampshire has a lower homicide rate than the UK - and still, only just. Every other US state, from little ol Maine to Texas, has a higher rate.

[MachDiamond]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

It would be more important to quote criminal violence. The use of a firearm might lead to more deaths, but I'm no fan of being stabbed or slashed. I don't even care to have a group of 'youths' rough me up just for some fun after they've been out for a night of drinking. It might just be that the violence in the US leads more to deaths than the UK. Come to think of it, I'd want to pare the numbers down to exclude gang fights or violence between criminals to just thugs vs. regular citizens.

[codejunky]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

@MachDiamond

"It would be more important to quote criminal violence."

Not sure why you would be downvoted. Its a good question and as each state is different I would want to see comparable data between states.

[No Relation]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

Maybe it's because of the inherently flawed dualism in the idea that there are "criminals" and "good guys with guns" and its possible to tell them apart.

[codejunky]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

@No Relation

"Maybe it's because of the inherently flawed dualism in the idea that there are "criminals" and "good guys with guns" and its possible to tell them apart."

And for that reason absolutely everyone needs to be locked up and in prison- because of the inherently flawed dualism in the idea that there are "criminals" and "good guys" and its possible to tell them apart.

So the next question is who tell them apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

There should definitely be a register for gun-nonces.

[unimaginative]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

The UK (and almost every other developed country) also has a much lower non-gun murder rate. Despite the panics about it we have lower knife murder rate than the US.

Therefore, while easy gun ownership probablyis a factor, it is not the critical factor.

One possible explanation lies in medical systems, but i do not know whether tbe USis that bad. It is a big part of why third world countries have higb murder rates (worse emergency treatment turns assault into murder).

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

I would suggest that a lot of it is down to the massive inequality that exists in the US (and I note that the UK has been getting progressively worse on that front over the last decade or so).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @Hubert Cumberdale

"Which is to focus on the method of death not deaths, or even violence. With no carry zones and restrictive states increasing the number of deaths and violence."

Well lookie here. Seems like we got ourself one of those UK ammosexual wannabees.

[unimaginative]

Not true. Most of our police do not carry guns either.

Most guns outsidethe military are prvately owned for sport and control if vermin.

[Steve Davies 3]

re: "right to bear arms" is completely alien to me.

Agreed. The general public/man on the clapham omnibus (in the UK)does not feel the need to own a gun let along go around 'tooled up' with an AR-15 (other weapons of mass destruction are available)

The first time I saw a pickup in the US with a rack of guns behind the driver gave me the heebie-jeebies.

The fact that there are 400+ million firearms in the USA and only 330 million (or thereabouts) in the population should make everyone worried.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: re: "right to bear arms" is completely alien to me.

well, you gotta be protected, when all hell's gonna break loose! ;)

[MachDiamond]

Re: re: "right to bear arms" is completely alien to me.

"The fact that there are 400+ million firearms in the USA and only 330 million (or thereabouts) in the population should make everyone worried."

Why? The overwhelming majority of those gun owners aren't criminals. I think any blame for the US being tooled up can be squarely laid at the doorstep of Britain stemming from abuses of the colonialists where it was very pointedly made clear that the British soldiers had guns and the common citizen did not.

A well made AR-15 style rifle is a quality firearm that operates as intended. It fires when actuated and the round goes straight downrange. The stigma the media has attached to it is sad. Choosing another model rifle with a wood stock that can't be modified to adapt to the shooter might be a poorer choice. The bigger problem is governments handing out full-auto rifles across the third world just for the asking that make their way everywhere. The same goes for all sorts of military hardware. Couple that with criminals that can make bail just a couple of hours after being arrested for a violent crime and you get to the world we are in. There are stories every day of criminals out on bail for one crime being arrested again before their trial and let out once more and even a third or fourth time.

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife is big on the right to bear arms - the little thing just loves being securely wrapped in their fluffy warmth.

[spireite]

You do know size doesn't matter don't you...

[Anonymous Coward]

61 inches should be enough for any man.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

>My wife is big on the right to bear arms - the little thing just loves being securely wrapped in their fluffy warmth

But soon they will be waking up from hibernation

[LogicGate]

Having tried unsuccesfully to parse that sentence, I think I have the mistake.

It should read "My wife is big on the right to arm bears"

Each bear should haveat least one semiautomatic. And hibernation is indeed a good time to install holsters and similar acessories.

[spireite]

Yeah me too... not enough sunny days to wear a T-shirt

[M.V. Lipvig]

Yes, we in the Colonies can understand why you in the UK would have a problem with it.

[werdsmith]

Guns are just not seen in day to day life: we need to go to an airport or some kind of terrorist target to see one.

Consequently, young school kids don’t shoot their teacher.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even as a UK gun owner, the idea of being able to carry one around, just because I feel like it, completely horrifies me.

[MrBanana]

It was a while ago, but I was doing a gig in South Africa and went for lunch with work colleagues at a local bar. There was a sign that read, please hand over your guns. I thought it was a joke, but then I was a little taken aback when two of our party reached behind their backs and each placed a gun on the counter. They went into the safe behind the bar, then handed out when we left. Weird. Open carry states in the US are also troublesome to me.

[hoola]

A friend of mine who travels regularly to South Africa has also experienced the same thing. Apparently on internal flights a similar thing happens. The guns are handed in as people board.

[alain williams]

A good start, but ...

Not quite far enough. Needs:

* When sold it should be prominent on the box/web-site when the support for the device ends and when guaranteed availability of parts ends.

* Security updates should be available for 10 years. Feature enhancements can stop quickly, not so important.

If a vendor wants to stop security updates early it can if there is a user friendly way of replacing the OS with something long term supported, eg Replicant or LineageOS.

* Apple/John-Deere style blocks on independent repairs to be out-lawed.

* Spare parts & tools to be available at reasonable cost.

[Graham Dawson]

Re: A good start, but ...

And the spare parts should be parts, not assemblies that cost a fortune and contain parts that aren't available to anyone but the manufacturer.

[heyrick]

Re: A good start, but ...

Print on the box the URL of where one can order parts (with the price guaranteed, not rising 20% each year as more people are likely to need them). Then people can say "okay, this phone costs €300, but it costs €200 for a replacement screen, stuff that".

[MachDiamond]

Re: A good start, but ...

"Then people can say "okay, this phone costs €300, but it costs €200 for a replacement screen, stuff that"."

For phone screens, the argument is that it should be ok for third parties to make replacements. For Apple to go after screens that don't claim to be official Apple replacements is ludicrous. Most people will expect that a third party replacement part may not be an exact fit. Your point is correct. If it's £200 for the official Apple screen, more people will just say stuff that and splash out for the newest shiny instead if they'd be 2/3rds the way there. (The prices don't mesh with what Apple charges, I know)

[Roger Greenwood]

Re: A good start, but ...

and at true end of life, the full schematics should be released. Once upon a time most electronics came with those when new. At least just go back a bit and release them once they go out of mainstream use.

[MacroRodent]

Re: A good start, but ...

I recall back in the times when PC/XT and PC/AT were currrent, you could buy a technical manual from IBM that contained the schematics and the full BIOS listing...

I used to have access to these books in one of my first jobs.

[Lomax]

Re: A good start, but ...

@MacroRodent And I recall when laptops had printed symbols next to the screw holes to show which screws needed to be removed to access which parts.

[43300]

Re: A good start, but ...

That wasn't very long ago either!

[hoola]

Re: A good start, but ...

Now you are more likely to need a chisel or heat to get them apart.

Even if they have screws they are often hidden under the little rubber feet thingys.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A good start, but ...

Ditto for any software services they rely on.

[Fred Daggy]

Re: A good start, but ...

And crypto signing keys.

[Aitor 1]

Re: A good start, but ...

All source code, etc etc.

Also the schematics abd board views should be provided day 1, otherwise you can't sell it.

Parts should be sold at reasonable markup, and exclusive contracts with suppliers should be illegal, parts should be available from suppliers.

[heyrick]

Re: A good start, but ...

Schematics should be released anyway. It's not as if it's a trade secret given anybody can open up the thing and look.

But more than schematics, a disassembly/assembly guide. I don't need a schematic in order to replace a broken USB connector, but I do need to know how to get access to the part in a way that doesn't involve swearing in three languages followed by unleashing the pickaxe...

Hopefully we'll start seeing little screws on things and less of that glue (which I'd bet is environmentally awful).

[Phones Sheridan]

Re: A good start, but ...

I'm surprised the glue is still allowed given the proximity of the lithium battery. In one of the industries I work in, electrical and fire insulation, after Grenfel, glue was explicitly excluded from manufacturing processes by the insurers at renewal. The result was a de-facto ban. The insurers acted where government wouldn't. We've gone back to screws and fixings as a result.

[MrBanana]

Re: A good start, but ...

Modern circuit boards are not conducive to reverse engineering. Just "looking" won't get you very far when all you can see is tiny SMD chips with no markings.

When they do replace the glue with screws, I'll bet they go for yet another proprietary security fastener requiring a specialist tool, that will already be available on eBay.

[Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese]

Re: A good start, but ...

and at true end of life, the full schematics should be released

I've got a mixer / USB audio interface from Wharfdale, and the instruction manual actually includes a full schematic / circuit diagram

[MachDiamond]

Re: A good start, but ...

"I've got a mixer / USB audio interface from Wharfdale, and the instruction manual actually includes a full schematic / circuit diagram"

I bought an older BK Precision power supply with a broken voltmeter and printed a bezel so I could fit a cheap V/I digital meter in it's place but needed a good place to tap in for the power. I sent an inquiry and got a schematic back in less than 24 hours from the company. I need to clean up my CAD model and I'll upload it to Thingiverse for others along with a note on how good BK's service department is. Even with the schematic, there is no way I could build one for less than the price of a current model and it wouldn't be half as good looking. I'll be looking out for more BK Precision test gear with that level of support for something ancient. I now have the calibration information too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A good start, but ...

and at true end of life, the full schematics should be released

Which in practical terms will not help you these days. If the "custom made only for the manufacturer" chip hasn't been made for the last 5 years then having the schematic showing exactly how it's connected to the otherwise fully working bits won't help you. And that's apart from the way many modern schematics simply show one big multi-function chip linked by a load of lines to another big multi-function chip, meaning that schematics are getting less and less useful unless you know how each of those chips works internally.

I'm now involved in an industry where the product lead time is measured in years (or decades), and in-service lifetime is expected to be "many" decades. In the days of everything mechanical we didn't really have too many problems - if the original manufacturer no longer exists, you can simply get another to measure up a bit of metal and work out the program for a CNC machine to knock out a few copies for you. But now we have the problem of having stuff go EOL before the product is in service - but we can't just leave those bit till later and use something newer as they are required for other bits to work. So an ever growing part of the puzzle is managing an upgrade program that starts while you are still building the darn thing. And of course, when you upgrade one thing, you have to redo a whole load of integration testing to make sure everything else will still work with it.

[JulieM]

Re: A good start, but ...

And when software goes end-of-life, require the full Source Code to be released.

[MrBanana]

Re: A good start, but ...

That's only really viable when the software is completely ditched, and even then there is the probably that third party IP in the code precludes it being made public. Most EOL software is usually a version control issue. Version 1.0 is made EOL because the OS/hardware platform it runs on is no longer supported. Version 2.0 is much the same code, but has been ported to current OS/hardware. No software company would be willing to open source V1.0 in those circumstances.

[unimaginative]

Re: A good start, but ...

Reduce the cpyright term for software.

There is no reason for it to be the same as for books.

Reduce it to three years - by then you will have a new version to sell anyway

[MachDiamond]

Re: A good start, but ...

"Reduce it to three years - by then you will have a new version to sell anyway"

The previous point about v2 software being mostly the same as v1 with some updates to work with the newest OS have merit. So does an argument for a product such as Photoshop or a CAD package that's still the mainstay for a company. The cost to develop those needs more than 3 years of protection and users will want those companies to see a benefit in keeping them updated.

[JulieM]

Re: A good start, but ...

That's why there has to be a law, and it has to be enforced! Some software companies would not be willing to obey the terms of upstream licences, if they thought they could get away with it.

[MachDiamond]

Re: A good start, but ...

"No software company would be willing to open source V1.0 in those circumstances."

That's a bit different in terms of right to repair. If I'm working on my EV, I don't need the firmware code as that's beyond repair and into modification. I can see a lot of merit in software having to be released if the environment it's used in is being discontinued as with IoT devices. Too many times the backend servers and services that makes the hardware go is shut off leaving people with a bunch of installed kit that is useless. If the software were published, perhaps somebody would spend the time to create a stand-alone version people could buy. It might mean losing some functionality, but much of that isn't that useful to begin with. I really don't have issues with needing to find out if I left the cooktop on or if I have any milk left in the fridge when I am out. When it doubt, buy some. An extra £1,000 for a refrigerator that has a camera and internet connection doesn't give me any ROI over just having a bit extra milk.

[nagi]

Re: A good start, but ...

> * Spare parts & tools to be available at reasonable cost.

Can I add... "you can stop early IF you forfeit ALL related copyright, freely release ALL design & repair documents, and ALL used parts (besides body panels) are generic and widely available at multiple manufacturing vendors."

No custom "only for this model" batteries, screens or <insert car parts>.

[MachDiamond]

Re: A good start, but ...

"No custom "only for this model" batteries, screens or <insert car parts>.

IDK about that. If every EV had to use one of 4 battery packs, companies wouldn't have much design latitude. If they are required to supply replacement cells and documentation so the battery pack can be repaired, that's fine. The only time I have problems with batteries is when they contain an ID module that makes them 'official' and the device they are in won't work otherwise. There's no point in that other than if the battery goes on fire and the owner doesn't own up to having had a third party battery fitted. If that's a worry for the OEM, they should come up with some way to have a tag that is likely to survive a fire whose absence would raise a doubt about where the liability would lie. Recently there was a building in Los Angeles (I think) where an E-scooter caught fire and burned the building down. The CCTV showed that where the scooter was put was stacked to the ceiling with all sorts of boxes and stuff. They didn't say if the scooter was plugged in or not, but it wasn't a great place for it to start with. I'm sure the manufacturer wouldn't want to get billed for the loss of a whole commercial building.

[Graham 25]

Re: A good start, but ...

These kind of suggestions are all very well and good, but the net effect will be to completely destroy any new product innovation and make everything vastly more expensive.

So you come up with a new mobile technology which could make battery life better - can you guarantee it will be reparable in 10 years if you release it now, and can be sure something better doesnt come along making it obsolete - No, so forget releasing it because you are saddled with supporting that clunky old technology which is killing your company. You are now running your entire company at least one generation behind every otehr competitor, and you will be bankrupt quickly and support goes to zero.

Sure - something needs to be done about short life washing machines or John Deere tractors but dragging it down into high tech consumables, for which the vast majority of people change their devide every couple of years anyway, is like the enemy of good, being perfection.

All that will happen when the crazies tyr to get perfection is a handset will be released, and the support will last only as long as the company exists. It will be shut down, and the next 'generation' of phone will be released by a new company with no ties to the earlier company.

Too many naive, optimistic, economically illiterate people trying to get the perfect solution and like so many EU ideas, it will over-reach, compromise and come up with something of very little practical use.

[JulieM]

Re: A good start, but ...

So what if it does "destroy innovation" ? That's hardly the most important thing. People will still have their existing devices, and they will still work well enough by dint of being repaired.

What it will destroy is the ability of manufacturers to keep releasing "new" products that don't really add anything new, just to make existing products obsolete and keep consumers consuming.

And frankly, good riddance to that.

If someone does invent something that really is genuinely new, people will buy that precisely because it is new, and not just another variation on the same old theme.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: So what if it does "destroy innovation" ? That's hardly the most important thing.

it means that our current (more like regular) civilisation development scheme is based around 'growth', which is based on 'consumption', which is based on a group of people producing junk and a much larger group of people giving them 'money' to get this junk. Because humans are easy to manipulated, they're manipulated into 'new is good, old is uncool', and here's the (sorry about the bleeding obvious) point where the 'innovation' comes in. And so the merry (?) go round goes on. And on.

but no need to worry about this or that regulation stifling 'innovation'. The underlying drive is 'money', and humans will always find a way to flog new junk, as 'new' is a sure way to get more 'money' from a much larger group because old is uncool and...

[Dan 55]

Re: A good start, but ...

I'm still using the same phone I bought five years ago. Works fine apart from the battery life is a bit short now. I could go to the official service centre still owned by the same company now as it was five years ago and get the battery replaced but there aren't many and they're out of my way and I might have to drop it off and collect it. If all models were like the Samsung XCover Pro or the Nokia G22 that would be better, I could just buy a new battery, swap them, and drop the old battery off at the recycling centre when I next go past there.

Seems innovative and practical enough to me.

Why am I crazy for wanting that? Please do explain. Also, do you believe rare minerals are an infinite resource and everyone can buy a new phone every year because of product innovation? There's a reason why rare minerals have the word "rare" in the name, perhaps you could explain what that reason is. Also bonus points for telling me who the optimistic economically illiterate people are.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: rare minerals are an infinite resource and everyone can buy a new phone every year

thinking short-term and 'moi first, and fuck the rest' is the prevailing mode for a huge majority and majority rulez. I don't see how we can crawl out of this deep, deep hole we dug ourselves. I mean, a total war has this benefit that it re-sets expectations and perceptions. For those who survive. But then, funny thing happens, those that survive, sooner or later, start digging a new, deep hole.

[Norman Nescio]

Re: A good start, but ...

an x will be released, and the support will last only as long as the company exists. It will be shut down, and the next 'generation' of x will be released by a new company with no ties to the earlier company.

This is precisely the business practice of the building industry to manage liability. A new residential housing estate is not built by 'Pomegranate Dwellings', but by a separate shell company "Local Estate 2023 (Northern Cyprus)-A Ltd, and when they inevitably go out of business the parent has no liability for building faults or any long term guarantees. The same is done for new commercial building projects, except the shell company is Flagship Development 2023 (Northern Cyprus)-Forty-Two Ltd. When such a shell company is so unfortunately shut down, all its liabilities, such as long term availability of spares, die with it. It's a bit like corporate suicide or euthanasia to avoid bad debts.

I have no idea what an effective way of combatting this practice is. There are statutory/mandatory guarantee schemes backed by insurance, but end-user experience of such things is not entirely positive.

[JulieM]

Re: A good start, but ...

The obvious solution is to hold companies liable for failures of contractors they employed. If Local Estate 2023 (Northern Cyprus)-A Ltd -- employed by Pomegranate Dwellings to build a new housing estate -- goes out of business, all their obligations transfer to Pomegranate Dwellings.

"This will mean using contractors becomes toxic" -- then, don't.

[heyrick]

Re: A good start, but ...

"destroy any new product innovation"

And?

Current "innovation" has led us to a series of expensive expendable gadgets that, for many, are liable to have been ditched/replaced/stuck in a drawer before the EU 2 year warranty period ends. If a company calls that innovation, then they need to rethink their entire approach.

"and make everything vastly more expensive"

In the short term, yes, certainly. Just like mobile operators added all sorts of hidden charges when they got told they couldn't screw people for roaming. But, you know, we can always vote with our wallets.

"can you guarantee it will be reparable in 10 years if you release it now, and can be sure something better doesnt come along making it obsolete"

Because it's too hard to make a new tech battery to fit in the old tech space? Or, you know, have a reasonable stock of spare parts?

"You are now running your entire company"

You're now looking for excuses to maintain the status quo. That shit's not gonna fly any more.

If the company's product is heavily based upon non-standard custom parts that aren't available for repairs or retained in stock, then... hasta la vista dinosaur (aka read the writing on the wall).

We are here, now, because manufacturers have been doing their damnedest to make repairs all but impossible without an expensive intervention by the manufacturer themselves (or approved agent). This is pushback against that mentality. Those companies...they only have themselves to blame for this. This isn't big bad EU or militant tree huggers. This is years and years and years of endless unnecessary landfill.

[Tom66]

Re: A good start, but ...

Maybe manufacturers should spend more effort testing and ensuring their products are more reliable before pushing them onto the market?

[hoola]

Re: A good start, but ...

It depends on what the innovation is.

Most of the time now for the sorts of goods that are being targeted it the innovation is adding all sorts of useless smart shite that actually has no impact on the original function and makes it more difficult to repair.

A few weeks ago our Miele washing machine suddenly sounded like it was full of rocks.

Some bearing(s) had failed. Now it can be repaired but when the engineer came out the first thing he did was link up his laptop to download all the runtime information.

It could be repaired but due to the design it needs the entire drum assembly replacing. The total cost is more than a replacement machine. Now I am not paying the bill so don't really care but the point is, just stating things are "repairable" is only half of the problem.

They also have to be economic to repair. That means designing stuff so that if a bearing fails, it can be replaced, a concept that appears alien to most industries from automotive, bikes, white goods.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A good start, but ...

Part of the problem is that new things are "too cheap" - it should almost never be cheaper to buy a new one than repair an existing one. If new ones were dearer then suddenly repairs would start to look more attractive. The mindset of "cheap, new" is what drives so much waste.

[Deni]

Re: A good start, but ...

Perhaps the manufacturer would need to be given an alternative.option to supporting for 10 years. They could. Be given the option of offering to buy-back the product instead, at a time-related discount. Note manufacturer choice, not consumer choice.

It reduces the likelihood of consumers scrapping devices. It gives the manufacturer an alternative to supporting for 10 years.

[MachDiamond]

Re: A good start, but ...

"can you guarantee it will be reparable in 10 years if you release it now"

For consumer tech, 10 years is way too long. Docs? yes, but maybe not parts inventory. For something like a mobile phone, it might not be operable on any 1st world system at that point. I have a few phones that have been obsoleted by system updates rather than their breaking down. For something like a farm tractor, 10 years may be way too short of a time. I get more life out of my cars and if I spent $100k or more for some harvester, I'd be even more interested in getting as many years of life out of it as possible. It's not like corn or soybeans are changing that much so it should do the business for decades.

[Snowy]

Re: A good start, but ...

Yes hardware needs supporting and hardware is nothing without software. This includes any server that are needed for the device to work.

[unimaginative]

Re: A good start, but ...

Even all that willdo little good if devices are not designedto be repairable.

i expect things to get worse - soon things that are repairable (cars, householdappliances) will become less so

[MachDiamond]

Re: A good start, but ...

"* Spare parts & tools to be available at reasonable cost."

The service documentation should be readily available for free online or at a reasonable cost for prints. TV's with vacuum tubes used to have the full schematic pasted to the inside of the rear cover. Not providing schematics and service information is senseless as anybody looking to replicate a product at scale can reverse engineer a product. Any hobbyist knows that beyond a very simple item, it's far cheaper to buy the factory made product. There's no way to build one for less. As time goes by, fewer and fewer people have the knowledge to fix things so worrying about a used market from items bought broken and fixed isn't valid either. Big Clive and Dave Jones reverse engineer stuff on their YouTube channels all of the time. It's not that hard. I think it was on Strange Parts where Scotty toured a firm in China where they could x-ray chips to identify what they were or at least make a good guess. They would also sand the chips down or de-lid the devices to put under an electron microscope. If it's really worth reverse engineering something, not having the schematic and bill of materials is just a speed bump for the pros. A farmer needing to get a module repaired for his tractor that is no longer available is critical.

When I was in college for an EE I worked as a depot that repaireed audio equipment and I also worked on shows/tours. The gear that people and companies bought was the stuff that could be repaired and had good factory support. Those same brands wound up on the used market leading to another level of people using it. That lead to more people sticking with those brands since they knew the product. Things that couldn't be fixed wound up in the bin and wouldn't be seen as often. A sound company with a tour on the road isn't going to be happy if a company tells them that something is proprietary and they'll have to send the item to an authorized service facility for evaluation/repairs. There isn't the time and if it can be fixed right away, it saves money. One can't carry spare gear for every eventuality.

[HeadPlug]

I can easily picture Apple charging £229 for a new charging port and £539 for a new display or whatever, if they are forced to provide replacements. I believe them or Samsung is also currently providing "assemblies" with multiple parts instead of individual parts, for a higher price of course.

The law must state that essential components(display, biometrics, speaker, camera, battery, charge port, etc.) need to be separate and individually replaceable. This is in addition to all other parts and components being able to be replaced, with the total cost of all parts being unable to exceed launch month price.

And even with these measures I can still inagine Apple pissing on everything in new and imaginative ways... The only green bills they like have US presidents printed on them.

[Version 1.0]

A few years ago a cat chewed my daughters friends' Apple DC power supply cord, the Apple store offered to replace the power supply for $150 but I just used a little solder and heat-shrink to fix the cable for her for free - it only took three minutes to repair it, including the safety testing after the repair.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

>it only took three minutes to repair it, including the safety testing after the repair.

TuV have got a lot faster, they take months on our stuff.

Did that cover emc as well?

[JulieM]

How are a bit of solder and heat-shrink tubing likely adversely to affect the EMC performance of a charger? The oscillator is barely running at LW frequencies .....

[MachDiamond]

"A few years ago a cat chewed my daughters friends' Apple DC power supply cord"

There's something about that material that Apple uses that cats just love. My cat decibelle always wanted to chew on my iPod cable so I had to be sure to keep it put away when not in use.

[bernmeister]

Catnip

Its because the Apple leads are sleeved with silicone rubber. Its much chewier than PVC and over time the handled parts absorb natural oils making them even more attractive to chew. Thats my theory. Any advances on that?

[Graham 25]

"The law must state that essential components(display, biometrics, speaker, camera, battery, charge port, etc.) need to be separate and individually replaceable. This is in addition to all other parts and components being able to be replaced, with the total cost of all parts being unable to exceed launch month price."

Now the crazies are getting really hot under the collar. back to housebrick phones then ?

I love it when the economically illiterate try to make such decisions. the et effect will be a vast increase in prices and nobody will be able to. buy them, and companies will fold. And No, alternatives will not spring up because nobody wants the pay the price of the nirvana driven craziness.

[ICL1900-G3]

Yeah. Let's not vote for a better world! Let's face it, Business has done a fabulous job of curating the one we have, so why change ?

[MachDiamond]

""The law must state that essential components(display, biometrics, speaker, camera, battery, charge port, etc.) need to be separate......"

I can see that some of those components would be very difficult to provide individually. Not the battery or charging connector, but some of the others require specialized equipment to install without damaging them. People want phones they can stuff in a pocket, so the components are going to be microscopic. I almost binned some parts (RMS to DC converter chips) as I thought the baggies were empty. It just turned out that the chips were so small that a reflection in the plastic obscured them. The only way I can use them is to solder them to a carrier board on a day when I have exceptionally steady hands to work under the microscope. I'm a firm believer in the concept of "too small".

[jmch]

"The law must state that essential components(display, biometrics, speaker, camera, battery, charge port, etc.) need to be separate and individually replaceable. "

The only manufacturer currently doing that is Fairphone (and even then I believe they have 5-6 modules not down to individual components). It means that the phone can't be as slim as the designers want it (screw that, I prefer a chunkier phone that I can hold comfortably than one sharp enough to cut my hand ). It also makes the phone more difficult to ruggedise / waterproof (although if modularity becomes the norm I'm sure there are advances that can be made in the sealing of an openable/reopenable case)

[43300]

What put me off Fairphone when I last replaced my phone was that that they've gone down the route of removing the 3.5mm socket. I don't want to use Bluetooth headphones, thanks!

[jmch]

"with the total cost of all parts being unable to exceed launch month price."

This is unfeasable, as there is also a cost to individually stock and transport the components. Shipping a phone as part of a 1000-phone shipment is much much cheaper than individually shipping 10 different parts of the same phone. Having a cap on the price of parts is a good idea though, it just has to be set to a level that allows a company to produce, stock and ship them if not profitably, at least without losing money.

Also, if a company is forced to guarantee availability of parts for 10 years, a company has to in practice have much more spare parts in stock than it would ever need*. It's impossible to correctly estimate how many of each would be required 5-10 years in advance. It would work better if a company produces a fixed amount of spares, and then when these are used up, can replace with a completely new item or new model.

* And if that's the case, from an ecological point of view that's millions of components that will be produced, sit on a shelf for 10 years and then thrown away unused.

[MachDiamond]

"Also, if a company is forced to guarantee availability of parts for 10 years, a company has to in practice have much more spare parts in stock than it would ever need*."

This is where the needs to be a distinction between common parts such as resistor, capacitors and inductors as opposed to custom chips. There also needs to be some prohibitions against custom marking of off-the-shelf components to obscure that they are readily available from the manufacturer or a third party distributor. I have to laugh when I see pound store tat where the manufacturer has gone to the expense of sanding off the markings of the chip they are using. Is the bottom of the barrel industry that worried about competition?

[An_Old_Dog]

Bad-Manufacturer's Workarounds to the Law

... are obliged to repair such items for five to 10 years after purchase if a customer demands so, and the repair is possible.

The circuit boards will be "potted" -- covered with a thick layer of black goo which hardens to a nearly-rock-hard substance -- and thus repair will not be possible.

Western Electric did this with some subsystems of the telephones they produced solely for AT&T. (Western Electric's potting was designed as an anti-reverse-engineering measure, but it also prevented certain component groups from being repaired. You had to replace the entire, populated circuit board.)

[Anonymous Coward]

What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

As Tesla will not sell spares to owners and only reluctantly supply some body parts to repairers, I think that they will be lobbying against this big time.

[DS999]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

Is the EU a big market for Tesla? It might be easier for him to just quit selling there.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

Based on the numbers I see on UK roads, I'd expect similar in the EU, therefore, yes, a sizeable market.

[Richard 12]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

Though he does have plenty of prior history of self-destructive business decisions

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

There will be exemptions for cars. There are a lot more Eu car makers than Eu phone makers.

In fact we should probably look at tightened repair requirements for cars, for public safety. Probably a requirement to have all repairs done at a dealer and ban 3rd party aftermarket accessories.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

You're aware that the EU introduced the Block Exemption Rules for automobiles, which means that car makers can't invalidate a warranty if repairs are done by a non-franchised [dealer] garage so long as it is VAT-registered? And requires the manufacture/supply of parts for 10 years after the last car rolls off the line? And that repair information must be made available to non-franchised garages?

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

They also proposed a law for motorcycles that said no after-market parts or accessories - for safety

Not at all motivated by BMW

[jmch]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

"...proposed a law for motorcycles that said no after-market parts or accessories - for safety"

not sure when / where this was proposed but AFAIK it's not the case ie was never passed or rejected

[heyrick]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

"ban 3rd party aftermarket accessories"

Downvote because my built in car radio was crap. I swapped it out for something I got off Amazon for €30. Much better. Also has a little camera so I can see behind when parking.

Well? What? It's an aftermarket accessory isn't it?

[jmch]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

The EU is a huge market for Tesla, no way they would quit the EU market just because they have to comply with rules that will take their margin down from 28% to maybe 25%.

Their margin is already much much higher than that of a typical car which is more like 10%. 25% is more typical of high-end luxury cars eg Ferrari

[MachDiamond]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

"Their margin is already much much higher than that of a typical car "

Tesla calculates their gross margin much differently than every other manufacturer. There is no regulation that states how that calculation is made.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

As Tesla will not sell spares to owners and only reluctantly supply some body parts to repairers

Well, yes. There are only so many arms and legs you can get off people before you run out.

Although, there is some recycling possible if the replacement parts cost an arm and a leg..

:)

[MachDiamond]

Re: What stunt will 'Elon the magnificent' play to get around this?

"Although, there is some recycling possible if the replacement parts cost an arm and a leg.."

For Teslas, parting out a used car can be more profitable than selling it. While the parts are expensive to get from Tesla if they will sell them to you, they do take a lot of time to get. "We may be expensive, but we sure are slow".

[codejunky]

Hmm

I expect the price of such hardware to increase

[jmch]

Re: Hmm

Yes it probably will, and yes it's worth it. Long-term costs of clearing up the messes afterwards are much higher than of not making the messes in the first place

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I expect the price of such hardware to increase

I expect the price of such hardware to increase much more than to cover this new cost. It's a great opportunity to increase margins and blame, you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

10 years is a bit long

Given the cycle of progress we have I think 5 years is better and more realistic. Managing and manufacturing spares is an industry in itself too.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: 10 years is a bit long

Also means you have to keep plants and suppliers for 10years. So what happens if an environmental law bans a component or process or China closes a factory ?

[heyrick]

Re: 10 years is a bit long

Didn't downvote, but while mobile phones and computers age quickly (even your suggested five years is beyond obsolete for a lot of such tech), "hardware" could just as easily count for things like fridges and washing machines. I'd expect at least ten years of service out of either.

Indeed, my fridge packed up last summer. Got myself a replacement thermostat from Bezos for something like €13. A half hour to swap out the old one, and it's been going fine since.

Ditto the washing machine. For years I did hand washing (pain in the neck, literally). I came across an old washing machine abandoned in the back of one of the stables. I stripped it down, gave it lots of TLC, some new wires, new caps (with thanks to ElectroTanya for a schematic of a related model that was close enough to mine that most things matched up (I was only missing the second water level sensor for the economy mode). A machine made in the early '90s (yay! mechanical state machine, none of this electronic shit) and is now back to life doing my weekly wash without fuss.

You know, once upon a time loads of people had grandparents or uncles that could do this sort of thing, plus knock up a door or a chair if needed. It's depressing that such skills have been lost along the way. I'm just glad I payed attention to various surrogate grandfathers when I was younger. So... motor just hums, but will start spinning if you give it a nudge? Them's yer caps... Little nuggets of information like that, and remembering that 230VAC bites, can help keep old fashioned mechanical white goods going. God only knows what I'd do if confronted by a dead motherboard...

[Phones Sheridan]

Re: 10 years is a bit long

"You know, once upon a time loads of people had grandparents or uncles..."

My grandmother (would be a centenarian if she was still alive) was a full fledged electrician, and always did home maintenance on white goods well until she was past retirement and in her 70s. During the war her national service was an electrical engineering apprenticeship, and she always carried on tinkering despite becoming a full time house-wife post war.

[MachDiamond]

Re: 10 years is a bit long

"Got myself a replacement thermostat from Bezos"

You do realize that Jeff stepped down from management in mid-2021? He's on the board, but spends his days now playing with rockets.

[steviebuk]

Just watched Louis

Rossmann and you'll see how cocked up the EU attempt at Right to Repair is.

[Graham 25]

Time to buy items overseas then

I really like my very slim laptop and phone - if the EU is going to turn these into big clunky monstrosities, with discrete components, no glue and still only repairable by a geek with no friends and an comics obsession, then I'm going to buy mine from a more sane part of the world and f*ck the EU.

[Dan 55]

Re: Time to buy items overseas then

Is the EU not overseas as well from where you are standing in the geographically-challenged sunlit uplands?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Time to buy items overseas then

"Framework"

Look them up.

Modular does NOT mean ridiculously unrepairable.

[Persona]

Not practical

It's an idea that sounds nice but in practice doesn't work. Many electronic components are made to order or in single run batches. Once they are gone that's it, you can't buy any more. It's not uncommon to have to redesign circuitry to use different components when some of the parts you were using cease to be available. Without the individual components available the only way to fix a "rev 1" circuit board may be to replace it with a "rev 2" one. What's worse is if the components disappear from the supply chain after the hardware is no longer manufactured. Would the manufacturer then need to design and make "rev 3" boards? Demanding that they have spare components in stock isn't a solution either because it's tying up too much of the manufacturers capital, and it's still not a solution because if people buy them they won't be in stock anymore.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Not practical

Except it's not normally the chips that fail, but batteries, glass screens, etc. If the manufacturers would give up on the idea of glue-filled "waterproof" devices, then we would be able to replace batteries and screens without a heat gun.

And if they'd give up on eMMCs and have all the flash on bootable removable media, it would be even better.

Unfortunately most mobile CPUs have embedded one-time-destroyable fuses. Google use them to make sure you can't roll-back a software update, ever, or else your phone bricks itself permanently and is destined for landfill.

[Doctor Tarr]

Re: Not practical

The fact it's not practical is largely influenced by there being no requirement to make it practical. If there was a requirement to ensure devices were repairable for a defined period (you could argue the time period required depends on the device or machine it's being applied to) then the designers would consider the points you raise. As it stands there's no need so no solution.

[EvaQ]

"Europe"?

Title says "Europe's right-to-repair law" ... but the article says EU (which is correct). How hard is it to have a correct title "EU's right-to-repair law"? It's even less letters.

[codejunky]

Re: "Europe"?

@EvaQ

"How hard is it to have a correct title "EU's right-to-repair law"?"

I always assumed it to be due to some people either having an inflated sense of opinion of the EU or to try and convince others. Alternatively it could be for those who idolise the EU but dont know where in the world it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "Europe"?

>>>I always assumed it to be due to some people either having an inflated sense of opinion

Would that be due to one's own inflated-sense-of-opinion?

[Potemkine!]

How does the fascist EU dare to annoy companies and try to limit profit? /s

[Anonymous Coward]

unless it would be cheaper to replace a damaged item

...so that's why, unfortunately, we have had to increase our prices by up to 30%*, you see. BUT - there's some good news too, now your product comes with free* replacement* guarantee*!

[Stuart Castle]

I think we've sacrificed reparability and replaced it with small size and ease of manufacturing.

For instance, I have an iPhone and iPad that I had to take to a repair shop to replace their batteries yesterday. It would be much easier if I could just open a battery compartment, and put a new battery in. But no, we must have everything being as thin as possible. I can see the point of this for the phone (any smartphone, not just Apple), but I'd like the choice to have a slightly thicker phone with an option to change the battery, or a larger battery. The reason I can see the point of this for the phone is that phones generally go in someone's pocket, so thinner is better. A tablet doesn't generally go in a pocket, they usually go in a bag, so being slim is less of an advantage.

But phones and tablets aren't the only culprits. LED lights frequently don't include bulbs now, with the result that when the light fails, you have to replace the entire light fitting, and not just a bulb. Apparently some LED streetlights, this involves removing the entire head of the lamp and plugging a new one in.

Even TVs. I've had problems with my LCD TV in the past few years, and when the engineer came out to repair it, he didn't have the individual chips and other parts required to repair it, he just swapped out the motherboard. I know it takes time to narrow down a fault to it's cause, but it's a lost less wasteful than replacing the entire motherboard.

[bernmeister]

Access Denied

I tried to open the PDF for the rules but got "Access Denied". I think that might sum up the EU appoach to "Right to Repair" in a single phrase