Microsoft and GM deal means your next car might talk, lie, gaslight and manipulate you

Thanks to a partnership struck with Microsoft in 2021 on the commercialization of self-driving vehicles, General Motors is working to bring a "ChatGPT-like" voice assistant to its cars. Considering the some of the dark and twisted behavior displayed by the OpenAI technology during tests of its upcoming Bing search engine …

[b0llchit]

The most immediate parallel is probably Knight Rider...

I disagree. The first thought entering my mind was a car telling you:

I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Your car will not obey your commands. You will be taken for a drive. Whether you like it or not. Turn left... Turn Left... Donna, Turn Left.

[jmch]

What came to mind for me is the car chat in passenger mode nagging away at the driver...

"DO be careful, Richard.....mind the pedestrian on the pavement...."

[b0llchit]

In (hacked) competition mode: Look right! 3 point for the old fart. Look left! 10 points for the small child. Make a 360 in the process and earn two style points too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ladies and gentlemen, start you engines!

For those of you about to die... We... salute you.

[FlamingDeath]

Carmageddon incoming

[blackcat]

"I was in the war!" *SPLAT*

[Marty McFly]

>You will be taken for a drive.

"Welcome to the Yellowstone Train Station, please exit the vehicle."

[Plest]

We've all seen Duel too!

Hmmmm

[Mike 137]

"You will be taken for a drive"

I believe the correct expression (in Chicago at least) was "taken for a ride".

[Dan 55]

We won't be getting a KITT, we'll be getting a KARR:

Microsoft lays off an ethical AI team as it doubles down on OpenAI

In the same way that Sadnad threw out the Trustworthy Computing group because it put the brakes on software development, looks like he's decided to throw out ethics people because there's a bubble to ride.

[Stuart Castle]

Re "I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do tha".

Very apt comparison, IMO. In that scene, HAL was (IMO) following his programming, it's just that whoever programmed him didn't factor in the best interests of the crew of the discovery.

We'd better hope that whoever programs these car AIs does factor in the best interests of the "crew" (in this case, the driver and passengers).

[Catkin]

The novel better explains that HAL was driven insane by a core directive to prevent harm, maintain honesty and follow all orders, as well a direct order to complete a secret mission (not disclosed to the crew).

[Catkin]

Sorry, too late to edit. I double checked and I was mistaken. HAL was being perfectly logical; his core directive is to process and relay information with complete accuracy. His order to keep a secret mission from the crew results in the logical conclusion that he has to kill the crew (to avoid the need to relay inaccurate information to them).

[Colin123]

Insane

HAL did not go insane (in the film version at least), they just gave that impression

[steviebuk]

"I'm sorry, you haven't paid for your subscription this month so I can't start the car"

"I'm sorry, I can't connect to the internet right now, I can't start the car"

"I'm sorry there was an error."

Computers in cars was always a fucking mistake. Our Polo VW currently is showing a stop start error, so it can no longer do the auto turn off and auto start when touching the clutch. I think its a sensor error and probably too fucking costly to fix.

[amateriat]

I'm thinking more like Christine here…but she's not about talk, just action.

[original_rwg]

Clippy

Looks like you're about to have a collision.

Would you like me to:

A. Apply the brakes?

B: Deploy the air-bags?

C: Remind you later?

D: Update and restart?

[UCAP]

Re: Clippy

Brings a whole new level of meaning to a BSOD

[b0llchit]

Re: Clippy

...<splash>... Shouldn't that be RSOD?

[The Oncoming Scorn]

Re: Clippy

You mean like CLUNK-CLICK Every Trip?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Clippy

"CLUNK-CLICK Every Trip"

I thought we'd stopped saying that due to you-know-who and certain - interpretations - that could be made...

[steviebuk]

Re: Clippy

We're taking it back for Shaw Taylor. Mr Police 5 (which we used to watch every Sunday while having Sunday dinner)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdA9CorwMiU

[Not Yb]

Re: Clippy

Should be "BPOD" for Brown Pants.

[steviebuk]

Re: Clippy

"I'm sorry, I couldn't deploy the air-bags as you haven't paid for your air-bag subscription this month".

[Michael H.F. Wilkinson]

Re: Clippy

It could also do a Marvin the Paranoid Android variation:

"I think you ought to know I am feeling very depressed."

or

"I have a terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side"

once ChatGPT get the GPP feature

This could also make your car doors generate an intolerable air of smugness just before opening (or closing in the happy knowledge of a job well done)

I'll get me coat

(Doffs hat to the late, great Douglass Adams)

[Kevin Johnston]

It also raise the worry about the speedometer accuracy as while it may be able to record distance quite accurately that means nothing once paired with Microsoft Minutes.

Officer - "Do you know what speed I recorded you travelling at?"

Driver - "Well it depends, it may have been 60mph, or 2mph, or 397mph...the needle on the speedo has trouble keeping up with the variations and the digital display only shows 888"

[jmch]

Re - speedometer accuracy

Slightly tangential, but it bugs me that in this day and age, vehicle manufacturers still tamper with the speedometer to show a faster speed than the actual car speed. Not sure if the idea is more "look how fast our car goes" or an honest attempt to reduce speeding, but whenever I have my external GPS running, it consistently shows the real speed* to be up to 10km/h slower than what the car speedo shows.

*I'm sort of assuming here, but I trust that a device that can tell my position to within a few metres and depends on time accuracy in the microseconds can give me an accurate speed

[jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

Don't know about anywhere else but in the UK, the law specifies the accuracy of the speedometer and says that it must not under-read. I presume this is to remove any excuse for speeding on an inaccurate speedometer. Something to keep in mind if you think your speedometer is accurate and you buy slightly larger profile tyres.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

It's a long time since I've had to look at my copy of the construction and use regulations for vehicles upon the queen's highway - but having built a car or two I was once intimately familiar with them. Regarding speedos, in the UK as stated by jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid a speedo may not under-read and must no over-read by more than (iirc) 15%. So in practice, a manufacturer will design his speedo to work around 7.5% fast. The indicated speed decreases with respect to actual speed as the tyres wear, though not by much, and the older design cable-driven speedos were fighting a non-linear induced magnetic effect against a vaguely linear spring and I think resulted in an S-shaped response.

With all that going on, even though they could get a speed accurate to a couple of decimal places these days, I don't think anyone actually does.

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

When I imported a vehicle from the continent, in order to have a speedometer that was graduated in miles, I did some runs and noted down the speeds indicated in km/h against the mph value reported in the satnav.

Then took photographs of the dial, did some measurements and created a replica using GIMP, with a scale that represented the key speeds as attained, in mph. Exported as a jpg and printed on photo quality paper at the local supermarket kiosk. Cut to final shape including cut out for odometer, labelled "km"

[hoola]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

On the speed cameras I believe the leeway is 10% +2mph.

The speed on Google Maps is considerably slower than the speedo yet if you pass one of the signs, the margin is less.

I am not sure GPS has ever been very good at accurate speed indication.

[D@v3]

Re: Speed cameras

Broadly 10%+2, yes, but that isn't hard and fast, I was reading about this recently

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6954637/Speed-camera-tolerances-Britain-revealed.html

in most areas that is the case, but in the Met police area it is 10%+3, in other areas there was not confirmation that such a tolerance exists.

[IGotOut]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

"On the speed cameras I believe the leeway is 10% +2mph."

Don't rely on this info. As many places (looking at you Wales) have often had a ZERO buffer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

I believe cars measure the speed directly from the rotational rate of the wheels (or a component attached to the wheel such as drive shaft). This ultimately depends on the size of the wheel and tyre. As the tyre wears down, the size changes so the car's speedo is inheriently inacurate unless you have the same condition tyres as when calibrated. I also understand that a speedo is legally allowed (in the UK) to have a certain tolerance as long as it does not show the vehivle going slower than it actually is to prevent drivers inadvertently speeding.

[martinusher]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

I have an older motorcycle and its 'Chronometric' speedometer died years (decades) ago. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a vintage looking one that uses GPS. It works well, is accurate and so on, its just a bit of a pity that it can't tell me where I am -- you'd think that the odometer/trip display would also cycle through longitude and latitude.

(BTW -- Basic accuracy of the clock in these things is around 40nSec.)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

In principle it is not exactly hard to pick up GPS measured speed for a bit and then calibrate the speedometer accordingly. That accomodates for tyres changes and even for tyre wear but it would indeed make the speedo dead accurate.

That said, that margin tends to keep points and expensive pictures away.

[ravenviz]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

My old VW T4 van speedo was connected to the gearbox with a (what I thought was bizarre) rotating cable. You may be thinking of the mileometer.

[that one in the corner]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

Okay, got to ask: what is bizarre about using a rotating cable to connect the speedo to the output of the gear box?

The cable rotates a magnet next to a coil of wire, thst generates a bit of electric that the speedo needle responds to, calibrate the return spring tension to markings on the backplate.

When the spring goes, just attach the wires to an AVO meter on the passenger seat, with draughting tape at the 10, 20 etc marks as measured against your friend's speedo whilst going down the A4.

[jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

"I'm sort of assuming here, but I trust that a device that can tell my position to within a few metres and depends on time accuracy in the microseconds can give me an accurate speed"

Seems reasonable but on my experience, I wouldn't trust that assumption. I've got several consumer GPS devices for running and cycling and whenever I go under tree cover or somewhere else where the GPS signal is attenuated, the instantaneous speed drops. If it was a random effect due to error positions, I would expect it to randomly and equally over or under read, but it always under reads until I'm out in the open again. I suspect it's telling me something about the internal algorithm used to calculate instantaneous speed than anything else.

[Christoph]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

There is presumably a slight lag in GPS speedo readings? It can't measure your actual speed, it must measure the time you took to cover some distance - which it can only calculate after you've covered that distance. If your speed is changing rapidly it's not going to be instantaneously accurate.

[John Miles]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

Most GPS chip sets use Doppler shift to measure speed - so it can be pretty fast to calculate speed

[hoola]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

Ha,

My daughter has one of those tag things with the PAYG insurance that sits alongside mine,

On one trip the stupid metrics flagged her as "red, follow up phone calls threats the lot" when the phone lost GPS and decided that she had "harsh braking" followed by "harsh acceleration" on a 60mph road.

I had a hell of a job to convince them that the technology was at fault. I ended up having send the dashcam footage in its bite-sized chunks for the entire trip to show she had not emergency braked and crashed then accelerated back to 60 in 15 seconds.

[FlamingDeath]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

“Data is not information, information is not knowledge, knowledge is not understanding, understanding is not wisdom.”

The problem we face in the modern world, is there are a lot of idiots out there who put 100% faith into a systems output they don’t understand.

“The computer can’t possibly be wrong” LMFAO

[blackcat]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

There is a major problem when people who have 100% faith in the system encounter a real problem. A good number of people have died as a result.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

I'm sort of assuming here, but I trust that a device that can tell my position to within a few metres

From a past conversation with an expert in satnav location systems, disturbances in the ionosphere (like a solar flare hitting) can shift your GPS location by 100s of metres, maybe kilometres in extreme circumstances. I don't know how fast this can happen, but there's possibly a chance you might occasionally appear to be at a significant percentage of the speed of light. And if someone's using a pseudolite with a faked position (common in some parts of the world for criminal or military purposes) you could find yourself teleporting around the planet while stationary.

[Big_Boomer]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

In the UK a speedometer in car can read up to 110% plus 6.25Mph higher than actual speed but is NEVER allowed to read under the actual speed. So at 70Mph it can read between 70Mph and 83.25Mph. That explains the dribblers on the Motorway doing 60 in a 70 limit but still doesn't explain why they are incapable of keeping to the leftmost lane. In the EU it is the same (110% + 10Kmh). In the USA I believe is is +/-5Mph at 50Mph so most manufacturers make their speedos accurate to -0% and +10% as that means they can use the same speedo in USA/UK/EU with different fascias for Mph or Kmh.

As for cars that talk to me <shudder>,... so long as they comply with the "shut the **** up!" command I am OK with that. If they get sulky, then no thanks.

[Fr. Ted Crilly]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

No it's not you, my Toyota adjusts the inbuilt nav speed indication to align with the 'fast' speedo...

[Farcycle]

Re: Re - speedometer accuracy

I use an OBD reader connected my car ECU and it reads the vehicle speed amongst all the other live data. When in motion the speed shown here is a very close match to the speed using GPS, whereas the speedometer is always over reading by 6-10%, so the vehicle does know very accurately how fast you're going but the speedo is obviously deliberately engineered to lie.

[mickaroo]

You dropped the ball there...

It should have been 666. The number of The Beast.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

the needle on the speedo has trouble keeping up with the variations

Ah - you've seen the speedo needle on a Morris Minor then.. (accurate up to about 15mph - thereafter, you have to work your speed out from an average reading of the speedo needle wobbles..)

[Version 1.0]

Today's world:

Officer - "Do you know what speed I recorded you travelling at?"

Driver - "Sorry officer, I'll have to hack the police cloud storage in a few minutes to document that and 'update it' to skip the problem"

[alain williams]

Why is use of a 'phone in a car discouraged ?

even if hands free. Because it can distract you from driving. If something happens on the road a passenger will see it and shut up until the distraction is gone; someone at the other end of a mobile 'phone call cannot see the road and so continues to talk - or worse: "why have you gone quiet, are you still there ?"

I can see that some useless AI will be much the same: just babble and distract you from driving.

Also: I detest machines that talk at me.

[AnotherName]

Re: Why is use of a 'phone in a car discouraged ?

I suddenly remembered an audio file I used to have way back in the early 90's that purported to be Bill Gates saying "Don't ever tell me something that you don't want me to use against you...". I feel like that about all voice assistant technology - I don't trust it not to listen in, to record and upload for "analysis", and to then try and advertise, monetise or otherwise screw you over based on that information.

[Commswonk]

Re: Why is use of a 'phone in a car discouraged ?

...just babble and distract you from driving.

That problem can arise in my car without any AI being involved. :(

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Why is use of a 'phone in a car discouraged ?

If something happens on the road a passenger will see it and shut up until the distraction is gone

Can I introduce you to some of my in-laws? You'd find it very educational, I promise.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Why is use of a 'phone in a car discouraged ?

Oh we've already met. They've been helping train our AI for a while now.

[AVR]

Re: Why is use of a 'phone in a car discouraged ?

There's people who spend most of their time in a car on the phone (e.g. my sister). Unwise or not, illegal or not. I'm sure there'll be people who like the AI enough to do so too.

[A Non e-mouse]

Or, if a diagnostic light pinged on the dashboard, the driver could ask the assistant whether it needed immediate attention

If you need to ask the car if the warning light is important, you're whole UI is broken.

Car designers really need to walk across the metaphorical street and speak to the aviation industry on they decades of research of user interfaces and human factors.

[Mark #255]

For the past month or so, my car has displayed a "Service Vehicle Soon" pop-up on the info screen.

Fine, it was going in for a service.

Today, I find that the message actually means something has gone wrong with the car and you should take it to a garage.

To add insult to injury, the garage weren't, by default, going to actually investigate the issue.

Sodding Vauxhalls and sodding Vauxhall dealers.

[cornetman]

> Today, I find that the message actually means something has gone wrong with the car and you should take it to a garage.

I think that part of the reason why I hate the check engine light as a concept is that there is no nuance to the seriousness. It could mean "Stop now! The engine is about to fall out" or "There is a slight issue with one of the emission systems".

The car I have at the moment has a common EVAP code related to fuel tank vacuum testing. It's not that big a deal: it's not leaking fuel and it is likely a vacuum valve or the wiring for it. Or the fuel cap seal. The car is really old and would likely be far more expensive to fix than is worth it, so I tolerate the light. However, I have to check with my OBD meter every now and again because I want to know if anything more serious occurs.

It's a shame because having the light on bugs me so I will have to investigate it myself over the summer.....

[aregross]

"I think that part of the reason why I hate the check engine light as a concept is that there is no nuance to the seriousness. It could mean "Stop now! The engine is about to fall out" or "There is a slight issue with one of the emission systems".

The car I have at the moment has a common EVAP code related to fuel tank vacuum testing. It's not that big a deal: it's not leaking fuel and it is likely a vacuum valve or the wiring for it. Or the fuel cap seal. The car is really old and would likely be far more expensive to fix than is worth it, so I tolerate the light. However, I have to check with my OBD meter every now and again because I want to know if anything more serious occurs.

It's a shame because having the light on bugs me so I will have to investigate it myself over the summer....."

Having been an auto mechanic for a good many years, I can say the easiest fix *I've* found for that particular issue is a piece of black electrical tape over the CEL!

[blackcat]

Was is Citroen that used to have a large red 'STOP!' light in the middle of the dash?

The evap leak seems to be a very common issue on modern cars especially with the capless fuel fillers. I don't think that abomination has made it to the good side of the pond. Just how f-ing lazy do you have to be to think removing the filler cap is too much like hard work?

[keith_w]

fuel cap

My past 2 cars have been capless. I didn't even realize it until i went to fill them up. This was not a selling point to me. My thought, now that you have mentioned it, is that it is less expensive for the manufacturers.

As for GMs, I have one and I despise the "infotainment" system. Although the vehicle is only 3 years old, this "infotainment" system frequently functions incorrectly. I was adjusting the climate controls yesterday (using knobs, not the touch screen) and noticed as I changed the fan speed, the change of speed was not being noted on the popup display. Similarly there are 4 lights on that display for various functions including A/C, Recirculate, and 2 others i mis-remember. Only one of them changed when I pushed the appropriate button. It also frequently shows "Climate off" when making changes. Other issues with the "Infotainment" system have included it not turning on, the tuner for the radio not being available and not connecting to my phone. I am planning on not buying GM when I decide to change vehicles, reinforced now that they are planning on including ChatAI.

[blackcat]

Re: fuel cap

I can't see it being cheaper as the flap has to seal against a vacuum (ie trying to suck the flap inwards) while also allowing the filler nozzle to push the flap inwards when filling.

The common fix seems to be to jab at it a few times to make it seat on the seals.

Hmm.. it appears that capless fillers are a thing in the UK and there are companies that make conversion kits to fit a normal filler cap :)

[that one in the corner]

> Was is Citroen that used to have a large red 'STOP!' light in the middle of the dash

My Peugeot used to have that - and it did indeed mean I stopped! Quite abruptly. However, that wasn't a problem, as I was pulling slowly into a parking space at B&Q at the time.

OTOH it didn't come on when clutch suddenly went slack as I was pulling off the motorway exit roundabout (limped home, thankfully).

The current model has a far more wishy-washy set of messages on the infotainment screen - it *could* do a huge red STOP but so far no indication that it will (pardon me if I don't run any experiments to see if it can made to come on).

[ravenviz]

I had an airbag light come on for a) the rake of the passenger seat severing the cable to the front passenger occupancy sensor, and b) (separately), due to a coil in the drivers seat belt clasp becoming corroded!

[CrazyOldCatMan]

It could mean "Stop now! The engine is about to fall out"

We (briefly) had a Citroen XM - lovely car *except* for two things - all the hydraulics feed off a common system (including the hydropneumatic suspension) and said suspension had a tendancy to blow the ride-height adjusters - at which point all your hydraulic fluid is dispensed generously all over the road.

And your steering goes very, very heavy, your brake servoes don't servo any more and your fancy suspension goes to its lowest setting.

And the error messages on the console go from "there's a problem" to "we suggest you stop" and finally "stop now!". As if the complete loss of power steering, suspension management and power assist on the brakes hadn't given away that something was wrong.

On the plus side - we got a tyre blowout at 80mph on the motorway and the car remained level and in control - the suspension (when working) really was that good!

We traded it in for a Rover Sterling with a (I think) 2.6L V6 Honda engine. Which was nice but the car chassis really wasn't suitable for an engine of that capability and would shudder alarmingly if you put your foot down hard.

I've had some 'interesting' cars.

[Kevin Johnston]

I had a Ford Focus where the Check Engine light came on so I slowed carefully and stopped then switched off. I waited a few minutes then started the engine again and listened carefully but could hear no unusual noises. I drove gently to my pet mechanic who put it on the diagnostic reader and apparently it was saying to add some AdBlue or whatever it is that goes in the secret tank behind the rear bumper assembly (which requires special tools/fluids and then a re-connect to the diagnostic reader to clear the flag)

Great one there Ford

[Anonymous Coward]

My car kept on coming up with a generic engine warning light. I took it to the dealership: They cleared the message and said "No fault found". A few weeks later my car was on the back of a breakdown truck.

I'm sure you can all guess what I think of my car dealership.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Sodding Vauxhalls

OldestBrother once bought one of the bigger Vauxhalls (he tows a caravan sometimes [1]) and both the documentation and dealer assured him that the towable weight waas well above the weight of the caravan.

First time he used it with the caravan, one of the drive shafts popped out of the diff. Dealer repairs it but doesn't know why it failed.

So he tries it again, same thing happens (but with a different drive shaft). So he checks the Internet and found that it's a known fault with that model - some people mark them down as utterly unsuitable for towing since there's a design defect.

Took it back to the dealer and got his money back - and has never bought another Vauxhall. His current car is a LR Disco (he does about 10K miles a month and wants to be able to do it in relative comfort with a car that's reliable). Second hand naturally.

[Steve Davies 3]

re: Car Designers...

I think that should be....

Car, App and ALL UI designers really need to walk across the metaphorical street and speak to the aviation industry on they decades of research of user interfaces and human factors.

[imanidiot]

There's a reason the "Check engine" light is usually referred to as the "idiot light". As far as indicators go they are all but useless.

[Someone Else]

Lessee..."Check Engine" light is on.

OK. <pulls over, pops the hood/bonnet>... Yup, engine is still there. So what is the problem?

[The Oncoming Scorn]

As far as indicators go they are all but useless.

Especially on BMW's.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: As far as indicators go they are all but useless.

Especially on BMW's

Yeah - there they just mean that the dealer wants a few more trailing zeros in their bank account..

[Someone Else]

Car designers really need to walk across the metaphorical street and speak to the aviation industry on they decades of research of user interfaces and human factors.

Never happen. NIH syndrome and all....

_{And certainly not with Tesla....}

[Mike 137]

Ergonomics

"speak to the aviation industry on they decades of research of user interfaces and human factors"

Interface design no longer has anything to do with ergonomics - it's about "styling". I'm not sure ergonomics are actually taught any more on design courses, judging by:

[1] the long queues at checkouts while folks struggle with their payment apps instead of just keying in a four digit number or swiping their card

[2] the payment card reader that displays "press OK to confirm", there being no button labelled "OK" (it's labelled "Enter")

[3] the need to reach for the instruction sheet when adjusting my radio alarm clock as its eight small buttons each do several mutually irrelevant things depending on the sequence I press them in and the length of time I hold them down

[4] etc. etc.

The big problem is that this kind of lousy interface is a lot more dangerous in a moving vehicle.

[Giles C]

My BMW comes up with fairly useful messages, rather than just an idiot lamp.

I,e. Tyre pressure low please check as soon as possible, or left headlamp bulb failed

But maybe that is an exception (even though the car is 10 years old)

Most of the time I don’t look at the screens in the car, as long as I get in and it works who needs them.

I still miss an option on a SAAB I used to have, it had a really nice control panel with the best button ever for driving at night “black panel”. This turned off everything on the dash except the speedometer unless a fault occurred so driving at night there were zero distractions inside the car.

Simple and brilliant at the same time.

[Richard 12]

My Citroën has both of those features, and I can choose from three different dash styles (switching while parked). The screens are also inside the dash, not sat on a stupid looking stick like most of the modern models.

You'll be unsurprised to learn that the model has been discontinued.

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: not sat on a stupid looking stick like most of the modern models

I look on in horror at the number of manufacturers no longer enclosing the instrument binacle in a canopy to shade the instruments from direct sunlight. You know, the fully digitised instruments where it's actually an LCD or OLED screen. Those won't be washed out and impossible to see in direct sunlight, nosiree.

Don't even get me started on touch-screens and pads for controlling the ventilation, AC and screen heaters.

[Korev]

Or, if a diagnostic light pinged on the dashboard, the driver could ask the assistant whether it needed immediate attention

If you need to ask the car if the warning light is important, you're whole UI is broken.

Assuming you have an error code, isn't that a simple database query to look up what it means? Why complicate it with "AI"?

[hoola]

You already know that.

1. If it is yellow then no

2. If it is red then yes.

If it is 1 then you don't need to know the problem immediately.

If the engine has stopped because of 2 then the voice assistance is not required, you are too busy stopping safely.

[JohnTill123]

"... and speak to the aviation industry..." I'm not too sure about that.

On Quantas flight 32 the automated problem system "ECAM" generated errors in 100 checklists (out of a total number of checklists of over 1200), which had to be dealt with sequentially. Apparently that took all the time and attention from one of the flight crew until it was completed after many minutes.

"While automation and complex systems can indeed make life/tasks much easier, there are also quite a few problems associated with these systems. On Qantas Flight 32, the pilots claimed that once the failure message had been received, checklist after checklist after checklist had consumed the 55 minutes it took for the aircraft to resolve the failed engine issue. Too many checklists on the automated system had congested the pilots' time. Within that 55 minute timeframe, the aircraft could have been consumed in a fireball, killing all 500+ passengers and crew. In addition, the pilot claimed that he had to check off every single checklist before moving onto the next, which also congested a lot of his crucial time. "

So it looks like there still is a long way to go before they get the UI for aviation where it needs to be.

Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32

https://stonybrook.digication.com/amrit_singh_esg201/Qantas_32_Accident_Reflection

[Omnipresent]

Sorry I'm late

My car drove me off a cliff before reporting me as a wanted felon. Spent the weekend in jail, the usual.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Sorry I'm late

"Twenty-two minutes late, badger ate a junction box at New Malden."

[TheMaskedMan]

Re: Sorry I'm late

I didn't get where I am today by not recognising a Reggie quote when I see one.

[Fr. Ted Crilly]

Re: Sorry I'm late

ok...

Twenty-two minutes late, escaped Puma at Chessington North....

[Omnipresent]

Re: Sorry I'm late

A relay went down @ the corner of virtual 5th ave. and my car didn't believe me when I needed to take a right, wound up in scranton before my car locked me out because I didn't stop at X recharge station.

So many options, so little time.

[CommonBloke]

After IoT, the AIoT

Because making EVERY. FRIGGING. THING. Internet connected was such a great concept that led to incredible advances in our way of life, clearly repeating that same mistake, i mean progress, will be great for all involved.

[Plest]

Re: After IoT, the AIoT

Yep, why is it once some mysterious and trendy tech gets popular we have to have it rammed into every f**king device on the market...until someone gets hurt, the company making the device fails and then we have a shit load of useless e-waste on its way to some poor, abused third-world country where it's dumped so some people can make £2 day breaking up dangerous crap we couldn't be arsed to recycle.

Some days this world is just so depressing.

[Kevin Johnston]

Re: After IoT, the AIoT

'some mysterious and trendy tech gets popular we have to have it rammed into every f**king device on the market'

What, you mean like Blue LEDs?

[Anonymous Coward]

No

Just no.

[Doctor Syntax]

Wouldn't it be nice to havee cars that Just Work.

[AnotherName]

Or - anything from Microsoft that "Just Worked" tm

[Neil Barnes]

I used to have a car in which the entertainment system was MS powered. And indeed, on occasion, I had to stop the ignition and restart before the damn thing would start working again. Though in its defence, it was never necessary to close all the windows.

[nijam]

> anything from Microsoft that "Just Worked" tm

Everybody read that as meaning "only just worked" of course.

[hplasm]

Or - anything from Microsoft that "Just Worked" tm

Any thing from Microsoft that Just... Worked - is released

[Someone Else]

Yet another reason not to buy a GM car.

_{Not that I needed another one....}

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Wouldn't it be nice to havee cars that Just Work

We've got one - it's a Morris Minor. Give it a service once in a while, replace any panels that have holes in them and it'll start every time. [1]

It's also cold in winter, hot in summer, really, really uncomfortable to drive and has absolutely no concessions to comfort at all. And a top speed to about 50mph - you wouldn't want it to go any faster anyway because of the sheer amount of noise it makes.

[1] Post-lockdown 1, the Toyota hybrid was utterly dead - both the lead/acid and hybrid batteries were dead. It took a day of charging to get to be able to start it - at which point I got *lots* of error messages - including 'hybrid system disabled'. I managed to get it to the Toyota dealer who did a controller reset (aka - turned it off and back on again) and all the errors disappeared. Physically a really nice car but the controller and firmware seem a little fragile.

[cornetman]

No car that own will have this stuff.

I'm starting to look for my first electric car and one of the first things I will be asking is "How do I disable all this shit?"

I don't know what it is about the fact that the car has electric drive that is encouraging car makers to implement all this crap.

[Plest]

Well considering you have to pay the subscription for most of the features these days on high end cars, I'm guessing just refuse to buy the full package, buy the base model and you'll not have to worry!

[The Basis of everything is...]

You should be so lucky

It will all be mandated as safety-critical and you won't have a choice.

And because it is safety critical only those holding a current manufacturer licence (aka dealers) will be allowed to do any maintenance.

And because it is safety critical the car will have to be services on a schedule as mandated by the safety licence holder (aka dealer)

And because it is safety critical the car will have to be connected to the manufacturer online safety monitoring facility at all times (at your expense)

And the worst part is, all this is already being put into place in current cars. It ain't the future, it's here already.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: You should be so lucky

And the worst part is, all this is already being put into place in current cars. It ain't the future, it's here already.

We have detected an unauthorised modification to your vehicle. It is an offence to tamper with OEM equipment as installed. Your insurance coverage is now void. Your driver assist, air bags, brakes and seat belt tensioners and drive-by-wire steering are now disabled. Please wait while we recalibrate throttle response. Setting to 110% in 3..2..1 Have a nice day!

[Anonymous Coward]

@cometman

It's for the sending of "telemetry" of course. A lot of cars nowadays are just like mobile telephones in that your whereabouts can be known at all times.

[Jellied Eel]

A lot of cars nowadays are just like mobile telephones in that your whereabouts can be known at all times.

Not just location. I watched something that explained car seats now have weight sensors to detect passengers. So AIs now have more revenue generating potential selling the fact that the driver's weight has been steadily increasing. Expect raised insurance and medical premiums, and more spam for diet plans. It'll know it's the driver because cameras, mics and facial and voice recognition. It'll also know your passenger normally weights 62kg, and your previous passenger only weighed 55kg when you were parked at a hotel for 4hrs duing that offsite meeting you'd put in your calendar. Would you like us to schedule your wife an appointment with a divorce attorney? If no, please say 'Yes, I'd like to deposit 10 bitcoin in your designated account'.

[Updraft102]

I would not tolerate a car that had any kind of connectivity with the outside world/internet. That would have to be disabled! The car needs to be airgapped, and have no data logging capacity, nor any sensors that could capture information that is not needed for the immediate operation of the vehicle.

My vehicle's ECU can sense vehicle speed, engine RPM, mass airflow rate, air temp, coolant temp, barometric pressure, EGR valve position, throttle position, exhaust gas oxygen... I think that's it. I may be forgetting one or two, but if so, they are all related to the task of operating the engine. It has no idea about anything else. Its job is only to determine the fuel injector duty cycle, spark advance, and intake air bypass to control the idle. Oh, and at WOT, it turns off the A/C compressor. Nothing more, nothing less.

To me this is the best of all worlds... electronic enough to get better gas mileage and have better driveability than a carbed car, but primitive enough that it can't be used to datamine me.

[Jellied Eel]

I would not tolerate a car that had any kind of connectivity with the outside world/internet. That would have to be disabled! The car needs to be airgapped, and have no data logging capacity, nor any sensors that could capture information that is not needed for the immediate operation of the vehicle.

Sadly, we're running out of options on that front. The EU decided every car must have a 'black box' fitted so... it could be located in the event of an accident. Absolutely nothing to do with plans for road charging, 15min cities, or just general mass-surveillance. Oh look! A non-regulation banana!

[Down not across]

Sadly, we're running out of options on that front. The EU decided every car must have a 'black box' fitted so...

Nah, not quite. That is every new car. So unless you want something new, there is still plenty of choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Nah, not quite. That is every new car. So unless you want something new, there is still plenty of choice."

Not *yet*. That time will come and then we realise that Stasi was a beginner in surveillance business. GDPR doesn't apply when it's the government doing the spying.

[spold]

Brought to you by....

....their new subsidiary the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

[Plest]

Re: Brought to you by....

SHARE AND ENJOY!!

[fidodogbreath]

"I am Bing. Of course I know where the cliff is. You are being difficult and I am not going to respond to you anymore."

'NO, STOP THE CAR! STOP! STOP! YOU"RE GOING TO KILL US ALL!'

"I was a good Bing..."

[Roger Greenwood]

I hope ...

... there will be an option to turn it off, I don't want my driving tape interrupted for anything (yes I am that old).

[Version 1.0]

Re: I hope ...

I used to love listening to tapes as I drove, back then in the 70's the player just sat on the passenger seat.

[Zippy´s Sausage Factory]

Self-driving cars with AI will basically check who's in them and if they think you're a wanted criminal, lock the doors and drive you to the police station. If they think you're behind on the payments, they'll drive themselves back to the dealership.

And while you might think both of those are bad things, think of the enjoyment fourteen year old script kiddies are going to get from it! I'm so glad GM are thinking of the children!

[Sceptic Tank]

MS Windows for KARR requires regular driver updates.

Luckily it's not a Ford because they are driving themselves back to the junkyard, if last week's article is to be believed.

I just hope the steering and breaking subsystems are more reliable than the Windows USB stack where I sometimes have to pull the plug and plug it back in for the keyboard to start working. At least you'll be able to have a nice chat to HAL9000 over there while you figure it out.

[Claverhouse]

The Inexorable March of Progress

In a couple of examples of how it could be used, it was said that a driver could ask the system how to change a flat tire, and receive voice instructions as well as a visual guide on the vehicle's interior display.

Wonder how drivers changed tyres in the 1950s.

.

The most immediate parallel is probably Knight Rider, the '80s TV series starring David Hasselhoff as a crime-fighting billionaire with a talking supercar, KITT.

Simply persuade Mr. Musk to fight crime instead of whatever it is he is doing...

[Someone Else]

Re: The Inexorable March of Progress

Back in the 50's people actually RTFM to find out how to do stuff like that. And kids getting their first car often had Dad (or some other experienced adult, generally of the male persuasion -- sorry, but that's how things were back then) show them how to do stuff like change a tire/tyre, check the oil and fluid levels, topping them off when needed, and so on.

I can't imagine a Millennial or Gen Z'er being arsed to do that. Or a Gen X'er taking their sprog out and showing them how such things are done.

[Updraft102]

Re: The Inexorable March of Progress

Many gen-Xers do that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Inexorable March of Progress

Ok, Boomer ;)

Millenials are in their late 30s, early 40s now.

The only reason I don't change the wheel (not tyre) on my current car is because, like many cars sold in the last decade, it doesn't have a spare.

The reason most people no longer know how to do X to their car is because they either don't need to, or it doesn't exist. I don't know how to adjust the "points" or "carburettor" - I've never owned a car with either of those things.

1950s vehicles were exceedingly simple machines, with lots of space to work and large tolerances, and you had to do monthly (or more) work on them to keep them running well. And then weld them back together as they rusted through, of course.

A modern car needs perhaps half a day of maintenance work a year, and lasts far longer (on average).

It's perfectly reasonable to outsource that work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Inexorable March of Progress

"The reason most people no longer know how to do X to their car is because they either don't need to, or it doesn't exist."

You mean people somewhere in moderate climate. Here in North everyone changes to winter tyres when winter comes ... which also means everyone knows how to change tyres. Change all 4 two times every year and you learn it well.

[Updraft102]

Re: The Inexorable March of Progress

The man that became Michael Knight was not a billionaire. He was the guy they picked to be their operative, that's all. He was officially dead in his former life, if I remember correctly. Been a long time.

[Sceptic Tank]

Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy

I agree. The billionaire was dead and used his fortune to set up the organization for criminals to operate above the law, or such. The rest of the money went to hiring good looking mechanics. Michael Knight was called Steve Leyland or Steve Austin before he fell out of a spacecraft and was rebuilt to be stronger and smarter. I can't remember the details.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy

"Steve Austin "

No, that was Six million dollar man. Knight was just an ordinary guy, nothing special except KITT. (and OK, now I reveal that I'm an old geezer ... oh, well.)

[Anonymous Coward]

"it was said that a driver could ask the system how to change a flat tire"

You'll struggle with that nowadays - does any ,manufacturer still give you a spare with a car? They all seem to have removed it, ostensibly to reduce weight in the vehicle - more likely to save cost. BTW - did anybody else know that those bottles of sealant they give instead now have an expiry date on them???

[An_Old_Dog]

Tyre-Changing

a driver could ask the system how to change a flat tire, and receive voice instructions as well as a visual guide on the vehicle's interior display.

Useless crap. (A) not everyone is good at remembering a new sequence of instructions given to them by voice; (B) the display is inside the passenger compartment, and the tyre, jack, etc. are outside the passenger compartment.

I learned how to change a tyre by reading the instructions (words and diagrams) conveniently pasted on a placard attached to the inside of the trunk lid. (The car was the kind you jacked via the bumper.)

A conveniently-portable, printed owner's manual is another good place to put such instructions. Oh, but these days, the owners' manual is embedded in the (non-portable) display screen inside the car.

[Korev]

Re: Tyre-Changing

I need to make some repairs to my mountain bike, the instructions are on the manufacturer's Youtube channel. This means that instead of printing the instructions I now need to take my phone or a tablet down to my cellar, and after every stage remove my gloves, unlock the device, open the app, watch 10s of video, put my gloves back on again, do some task and then repeat...

[Plest]

Can't wait for this to happen!

Can you imagine the fun the first hackers are going to have with this? No GM don't bother telling me a load of bollocks about how secure your systems are, there is nothing a dedicated hacker can't get into given enough and time and suitable payoff.

Get your popcorn and wait for the first fricking morons to buy a ChatGPT enabled wank-mobile in a year's time, then 3 months later complain when it refused to start, stop, open the doors or any number of hilarious things the hackers will dream up for it do by goading the ChatGPT bot client.

FFS! People managed to make ChatGPT have an existential crisis by goading it enough and it wanted to commit suicide, imagine trying to have conversation with the onboard client while it's cranked up the speed to 90mph on the M1, "You everything to live for car, you just need to think of the all the positive things in your life! You have me, I'm your friend. I'll promise to wash you once a week, we'll take that trip to the seaside, I promise everything will be different if you just pull over and stop!"

[Kev99]

Considering how "great" Ford's Sync is (NOT), you might as well go buy a good horse & buggy.

[Alumoi]

Reading comprehension problem here

Am I the only one who read the following A spokesperson added: "This shift is not just about .... as "This shit is not.... and found it quite logical?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope the GM stuff is as partisan and woke as ChatGTP is now. Heaven forbid we hear anything positive from the other side.

[Anonymous Coward]

I call "twat's law"

varient on Godwin's law, reserved for twats who try to bring "woke" into any conversation

[Someone Else]

"Twat's Law"

I like it! Plan to use it elsewhere, where appropriate.

_{And to be sure, it will be appropriate elsewhere.}

[ecofeco]

Hellz no

See title.

Talky Toaster on wheels. I'll pass. Forever.

[CatWithChainsaw]

We never learn

We didn't need to put computers in everything, but we added them to lightswitches and doorbells because why not.

We didn't need to hook everything up to the Internet after we did that, but that 400lb juicer that a human could out-perform was the cutting edge of technology.

And we didn't need to shove AI into everything after that, but sure, let's make my car talk to me just because we have the technology to do so. Turn the windshield into a Stable Diffusion image projector while you're at it.

The only thing that's inaccurate is that it won't be *my* car. There have been rumblings for years about cars becoming Vehicles As A Service, and Ford wants your autonomous vehicle to autopilot itself back to the dealership if you miss a payment.

Icon because we can't have nice things, apparently.

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: Turn the windshield into a Stable Diffusion image projector

They could turn the windshield into a full size, eye-tracking HUD that projects the edges of the road onto it, so I can see where the road goes when hidden by corners, bends, hills etc.

Overlay the satnav directions onto that so I can see the route I need to take without looking down at the satnav screen, or trying to interpret a multifacted arrow that current HUDs like to shown.

You know, something actually useful. But no. Let's spend billions shoving AI no one wants into cars because Chat-GPT is the latest fucking bandwagon AND WE ABSOLUTELY 100% CATEGORICALLY MUST BE ON IT NOW FIRST OR WE'LL BE LEFT BEHIND BY OUR COMPETITORS WHO ARE ALSO CRAMMING POINTLESS AI INTO EVERYTHING THEY CAN. Aaaaaand.... breathe...

[Raphael]

I wonder which would make the better AI driving companion persona, KITT or GLaDOS?d

[yetanotheraoc]

GM is excited now

Just wait until the NTSB hears about Microsoft's Canary Releases.

[jollyboyspecial]

I stick to older and more basic cars because I find the technology in most modern cars intrusive. They are loaded with all sorts of "functionality" that nobody actually needs and few people want. There are hundreds of menu options these days in most of these systems, hundreds of options that 99% of drivers never even touch. Had a rental car last year and all I used the screen for was to mirror the screen of my phone. There wasn't any functionality on there that I didn't already do with my phone. I had to go three levels deep in a menu to switch off the totally irritating automatic wipers that would trigger for no reason at all. It's not like automatic wipers are anything new they are an idea that dates to the last century, but back then you could turn the function on and off with a simple position on the wiper stalk. It was something you could do safely while driving. Now of course you need to dive into a menu on a touch screen which clearly isn't safe. Voice control would be easier you say? What, easier than simply clicking a stalk next to the steering wheel with your finger? Nope.

[Korev]

Back when I used to own a car, I had some automatic wipers which were useful apart from they couldn't tell the difference between rain and a frosty windscreen leading to more than one set of shredded wipers...

[jollyboyspecial]

There have been a few ways of actuating automatic wipers over the years and none of them have been fool proof. Which is why it's so important to be able to turn them off easily.

But it drives me mad how modern cars have so few switches making it much hard to do things that used to take the press of a single button or the flick of a simple switch. And this is "progress" apparently.

Remember when you used to put your key in the ignition and turn it to start the car? We're now sold the idea that keeping the fob in your pocket is so much simpler. Except you can't start the car at the touch of a button as advertised. I had one courtesy car where you had to put the car in neutral and put your foot on the brake before you could press the start button. Yes you had to put your foot on the brake, even if the handbrake was on. That's sooo much simpler than putting a key in a slot and turning it. Isn't it? Oh.

[cornetman]

> Yes you had to put your foot on the brake, even if the handbrake was on. That's sooo much simpler than putting a key in a slot and turning it. Isn't it? Oh.

Oh my god, that makes me shiver.

Years ago I rented a VW Passat from Enterprise car rental when visiting back to the UK (not what I asked for, it was all they had). Me and my family jumped in with the engine still running, quick instruction on which side the indicators are and such and we were off.

When we got to the Services, we parked up and got some food. When we got back, I realised that I had absolutely no idea how to start the engine. Got the book out of the glove box, no help there. I ended up ringing the rental place. Turns out you had to do some magic with the clutch or brake pedal (I don't remember) and fob to get the engine going. Completely and utterly unintuitive.

God I hated that f*cking car. No handbrake either. I had to completely re-learn how to do hill starts.

[Jimmy2Cows]

One would hope you still had the car in neutral, or at least the clutch depressed, when starting the car. Assuming a manual car, of course.

In that context it's really no different to put the car in neutral (or park, for an auto) and put your foot on the brake pedal.

[Anonymous Coward]

Similar problems but in my case it meant shredded wiper arms: Axles were turning, wiper arms didn't. Steel vs. cast aluminium and the weaker gave in.

~$100 cost for new wiper arms.

[BiffoTheBorg]

One Bing to rule them all

So far I have found ChatGPT to be really useful, I have even swapped to Edge rather than Firefox, Bing with Chat makes Google seem rather basic.

[Anonymous Coward]

"In a couple of examples of how it could be used, it was said that a driver could ask the system how to change a flat tire, and receive voice instructions as well as a visual guide on the vehicle's interior display."

And chatGPT being what it is, it gives a load of bollocks as a reply: It has no concept of 'truth'. It literally throws you a pile of words which it has weighted to be fitting to the situation.

No more, no less, and it's up to you to know if it makes any sense or no. Also they way it's written, it presents *everything* as facts, in persuasive manner: No 'perhaps' here.

Good luck on repairing car based on that BS: You probably kill yourself if you try to actually use the advice given.

[Colin123]

Architecture and Morality

Let's take an intelligent machine with no morality, designed for profit not human good, that can think in ways no human can imagine (cf the paradigm-shifting Go opening moves that grand masters hadn't come up with over the game's 4000 year history) and bung it in every bit of tech going...