back to article Italy, Japan, UK to jointly launch sixth-gen fighter jet by 2035

The United Kingdom, Japan and Italy will pool resources to build a sixth-generation warplane scheduled to be ready for deployment by 2035, with capabilities to rival never-before-seen tech on fighter jets built by China and Russia, although this wasn't stated explicitly. It's understood at least some of these capabilities will …

  1. EvilDrSmith Silver badge

    Promising precedent

    The UK and Italy have worked successfully together already on Tornado and then Typhoon (Eurofighter). The UK and Japan have already agreed collaboration on a number or related sub-projects (engines, missile systems). While it's way too early to predict it will be a success, there is no particular reason to predict failure - all three partner nations are really quite good at this stuff.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Promising precedent

      And, as another plus for a collaborative fighter project, the French aren't involved.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Promising precedent

        Because the French know they can do a better one in half the time and for a fraction of the budget.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Promising precedent

          As someone who grew up in Farnborough, home of the world's premier aerospace arms fair, I assume you're joking. The French would turn up every year during the 80s and 90s with their piss poor Mirage rehash, and the entire market would go "meh". It was a crude, second generation aircraft that made the Russian MiGs look like a decent option. Since then even the French aerospace industry has stopped trying to appear relevant.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Promising precedent

            Does growing up in Fanrrborough make you an expect on the combat aircraft market?

            Rafale is definitely not a 2nd gen aircraft, it’s 4th gen at worst.

            Yes, there was a bit of tongue in cheek. But carrier capable Rafale does stand up well.

          2. Potemkine! Silver badge

            Re: Promising precedent

            Are you speaking about the same Mirages which crushed Hunters during the Israeli-Arab wars?

            At least you had the decency not to compare the Rafale and the so-called 'Eurofighter'.

            == Bring us Dabbsy back! ==

            1. EvilDrSmith Silver badge

              Re: Promising precedent

              Well, what the Arab-Israeli Wars demonstrate most is the importance of aircrew quality.

              Hunters weren't exactly 'crushed' by Mirages, since there weren't that many Hunters deployed, a lot were destroyed on the ground in the 6 day war, and others fell victim to Israeli F4 Phantoms (there is 1 classic dog-fight, involving a drawn out fight between an Israeli F4 and a Jordanian Hunter which the F4 eventually won).

              Bear in mind also that the Hunter entered service in the early/mid 1950's, was transonic and gun-only armed (at least as used by the Arab air-forces), whereas the Israeli Mirage III's entered service a decade later, were supersonic and radar/missile armed (and despite this, I understand that at least 1 Israeli Mirage III was still shot down by a slower, older, gun armed Hunter flown by a less well trained pilot).

              I'm perplexed by your comment on Rafale and Eurofighter (i.e Typhoon). Typhoon is bigger, heavier, more expensive and generally more capable, other than not having a carrier capability (the requirement for which drove the French to want a lighter aircraft and hence go their own way and develop Rafale). Also, why 'so called'? That's what it was / is called* - it's what it was officially called for most of its development, and that's still the name on the website.

              (* If I recall, the name 'Typhoon' was intended originally to be just for export purposes, but has become the standard UK name)

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Promising precedent

          >Because the French know they can do a better one in half the time and for a fraction of the budget.

          And yet they join every European fighter aircraft project with enthusiasm

          The airframe is designed, only moderately late and over budget

          Then in a spirit of cooperation the French request that if can be used on their carriers

          After another long and expensive redesign it can fly from carriers

          Magnifique! exclaim a delighted admiral de la Armée de l'air - if only it had a smoking room we would buy a lot of them

          As the designers go away to consider fitting a salon - the French announce the launch of their new French built fighter and pull out of the project.

          The project then scrambles to find partners for the French share among countries that were considered too small, poor or insufficiently mustached to be part of the original partnership

          Bizarrely this seems to have been repeated for every european aviation project since WWII

          1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Promising precedent

            I never saw any admiral in the French Armée de l'Air, just saying...

            They stick to the Aéronavale.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Promising precedent

              He was undercover

    2. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

      Negative Factors Probably Not Considered

      * New technology of dubious implementability ("A.I."), which has no straightforward debugging procedures.

      * Extra communications/coordination paths between two major groups, probably most members of which do not speak the others' language.

      * Politically-chosen, "aggressive" timeline.

      As things stand, I predict substantial delay, if not outright failure. Get rid of the AI and the aggressive deadline (pressure does not make people think faster), and it could be a success.

  2. Eclectic Man Silver badge

    "What could possibly go wrong?"

    In a documentary concerning the current F35 fighter, one of the RAF people claimed that human pilots in combat fighters would be phased out as simulations of computer piloted aircraft vs human piloted ones were 'not pretty'. I would like to claim that we won't need new fighter (or bomber) aircraft, as humans the world over will be in peaceful co-existence by 2035, but current experience suggests otherwise.

    1. Binraider Silver badge

      Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

      The advantages of situational awareness by being in the cockpit versus the extra handling capability... Yep, I am inclined to suggest the latter is somewhere you can seek an edge. DCS is quite difficult enough without having your weight multiplied by 9G.

      I have no illusions that the career of drone operator is not nearly so glamorous as that of fighter pilot. Removing the human removes the excitement from the tech entirely. But it's probably going to be more effective a warplane - as long as you can keep the cooms loop up.

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

        I think the bigger factor is that relieved of the necessity for keeping a pilot alive, you can make smaller cheaper drones - but have a lot more of them.

        Even if one chooses to believe that given two equal jets, one with a human pilot and one piloted by AI will result in the human winning most of the time, there's no way to extend that claim to fighting off 10x or 50x smaller drones. You could save money on some by dropping stealth, and figuring that numbers will overwhelm missile based air defenses. You could save money on others by dropping supersonic capability, and have a solid rocket booster that can fire for 10 seconds and turn it into an expendable kinetic kill missile.

        I see no future for human piloted fighters in 2035, the only reason the US and EU are looking into 6th generation fighters is because the people making those decisions are former pilots who don't want to see the Air Force's studly pilots demoted to video game nerds. But that's the future, whether they like it or not.

        You can bet China is pursuing the AI drone swarm technology rather than trying to match the capabilities of our 6th generation fighters.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

          But how is the drone pilot supposed to appear enough of a hero to run for office and get further funding

          1. DS999 Silver badge

            Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

            The top egamers make millions of dollars a year, and may be someone you and I have never heard of, but rest assured Gen Z knows who they are and more and more of them reach voting age every year. We will live to see some of them get elected.

            Before you moan about how terrible it is that they might someday vote for an egamer, the "greatest generation" made a B western movie star president and the boomers recently did the same for a reality TV host. At least when Ukraine voted in a Gen X TV comedian a couple years ago to most people's surprise he turned out to be more than worthy of the job.

            1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

              I'm willing to bet that there are a lot less "top egamers" than there are jet fighter pilots.

              I'm also willing to bet that their careers are shorter.

              And don't get me started on the OHSG.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              @DS999 - Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

              Don't fool yourself! At 100 billion US dollars in military aid, you and I for that matter could be as good as Volodya.

              As for an egamer, after voting a person like Donal trump for PotUS, anything can pass.

        2. Zolko Silver badge

          Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

          I see no future for human piloted fighters in 2035

          yeah, good choice: with all drone pilots sitting in some fixed place, all that the opponent needs to do is 1 bomb on that building, and they have air superiority. Nice move armchair general. I, on the other hand, will take hundreds of pilots distributed over hundreds of air-bases, and you won't know where my pilots are resting and preparing.

          And I didn't even begin to talk about jamming and GPS spoofing.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

            Are you saying it’s not possible to disperse drone operators?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

              You can easily disperse the drone operators, but not the mountan they were hiding under!

      2. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

        Control Input / Drone-Response Lagginess

        One of the difficulties drone pilots face is lagginess (communications latency). Move the control stick, and some (variable) time later, the drone responds. That's serious disadvantage in air combat. I don't see that's something which can be fixed when the drone pilots are literally, half-a-world away from the drone they're ostensibly controlling.

        1. seven of five

          Re: Control Input / Drone-Response Lagginess

          Quite a bit of comms lag can be amoreliated by the ability to turn in a 20+ g, being smaller and in numerical superiority in first place helps as well.

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: Control Input / Drone-Response Lagginess

            The numerical superiority is supposed to be somewhat solved by the various "loyal wingmen" programs. The idea is that you'll have some manned aircraft to do command and control, and a bunch of drones with them. Although nobody's quite sure of what types.

            Plus, modern smart missiles, which are already drones in one sense. Take the Meteor air-to-air missile. It's being updated to have a whole bunch of electronic warfare abilities. It's already got a throttlable motor, so it can be set to cruise along slowly in order to get a longer range, or allow an aircraft to fire two at an opponent, one that goes in at full speed, and one that follows to maybe finish the job. The new version that the UK and Japan are cooperating on will be able to act as an anti-radar missile - so it can be fired at enemy airbourne or ground jammers or radars. But also will be able to do jamming itself, so can act as a decoy for its own aircraft. As well as still being one of the best air-to-air missiles out there.

            Or the Spear 3 system, based on the already existing Brimstone missile. Where you can fire say 8 from one Typhoon and tell them to go to a particular gridsquare and kill any artillery pieces they find - and if they can't find any try and kill tanks or surface to air missile systems - or whatever you prioritise from their targe database. Brimstone can already do that (though at shorter ranges), but the next generation ones will be able to talk to each other (swarm) and so share information and effectively act as their own target finders. It's being called a missile, not a drone, but really it's both.

            The three big Western projects all involve a large element of drones. From what I've read the Franco-German-Spanish FCAS is perhaps prioritising the drones to fly with current aircraft and the new aircraft itself is supposed to be with us at the end of the next decade. Whereas the British-Italian-Japanese program that also used to be called FCAS (fortunately isn't any more) is trying to get a prototype flying by 2030 - so it can start coming into service in 2035. Both the Japanese and British have been doing design work for the last few years (not sure about Italy) and Sweden seem to have dropped out, but I've seen speculation they're just getting a new bunch of Gripens delievered and so are more interested in the drone side than the new aircraft side at the moment.

            I don't think anyone knows what's going to work. So air forces are going to try everything.

        2. SCP

          Re: Control Input / Drone-Response Lagginess

          Which is why you wouldn't do it that way. One of the key reasons for man-in-the-loop is authority to release weapons. Once that is given the automated systems can do the necessary flying and coordinate offensive and defensive activities. Others have described some of the capabilities of systems that are already operational and the flexibility that provides in engaging targets. Automated systems can react much more quickly, consider many more possibilities, and operate more precisely. Even in manned systems a great deal of automation is used to take the load off the pilot - leaving him to manage the battle.

          There are different levels of automation, for example - None, Advisory (pilot performs the actions suggested) , Recommendation (pilot gives permission and the system does it), Do it and Announce (pilot can intercede if they need to), Just Do It. Historically, for many reasons, the authority allowed to automated systems has often been limited, that is changing.

          Whilst there is a role for cheap-and-cheerful systems, high capability systems also have a role they can play - the key thing is to get your force mix right.

    2. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Re: "What could possibly go wrong?"

      Pretty much virtually everything is guaranteed to fail as was not expected, is the answer to such a constant question of future manipulation and physical product placement when a Global Operating Device is in Live Operational Virtual Environments.

      And an Ancient and Postmodern Simply Complex Multi-Dimensional Field Craft to AIMaster if Media expects/presupposes/proposes IT Leads One ... or if One realises IT both Leads and Follows the Future with Media collaboration in the spinning of exceedingly tall and seemingly quite absurd and surreal tales of strange daring do/derring-do which magically come to light and life ..... come to be more widely known with evidence available and presented in multiple instances and/or location/times and spaces/places.

      Such is the real surreal spooky nature of your current existence for Earthly Iteration and Alteration via Greater IntelAIgent Games Plays.

      I Kid U Not. And now y’all know too. What would you like to do next, with the help of that which and those who know what needs to be done next for you, or to you if your future choices are the same as those ones long ago presented and discovered totally unsuitable and thus worthy of immediate complete destruction.

  3. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    A Quantitative Easing Program in Military Guise?

    I think Jackanory sums up extremely well that fantastic development, Jude Karabus.

    No monies for welfare and wages and food and heating and homes but billions for a few death and destruction dealing flying machines. Another great plan from the masters of nothing. Bravo.

    It most definitely is a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World in Deed indeed.

    1. Danny 14

      Re: A Quantitative Easing Program in Military Guise?

      Ask the ukranians how much heating they have after their neighbour and their weapons of war kicked the fence down.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A Quantitative Easing Program in Military Guise?

        Your point is taken w.r.t. military preparedness - but not necessarily piloted aircraft. From that battlefield, counter attacking drones and missiles would seem to be the equalizer.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: A Quantitative Easing Program in Military Guise?

          Your point is taken w.r.t. military preparedness - but not necessarily piloted aircraft. From that battlefield, counter attacking drones and missiles would seem to be the equalizer.

          Russia and Ukraine are artillery armies. Russia does have a decently sized well-funded air force as well, but it's not been terribly effective because they've not been able to fly safely over most of the battlefield. Due to failiures in electronic warfare and SEAD/DEAD (suppression / destruction of enemy air defences).

          NATO forces are generally much more reliant on air power, and do train for dealing with enemy air defences. Which we'd need as we're not as heavy on artillery as the Russians - though ours is probably more accurate. We also have much better precision weapons for hitting air defences.

          Compare the beginning of Desert Storm to Russia's invasion of Ukriane. Both Iraq and Ukraine had large, integrated air defence networks with lots of ex Soviet kit. Though Iraq's was older than Ukraine's but on the other hand it was 30 years ago and so were the coalition weapons. In 1991 we saw a couple of days where something like 1,500 aircraft did almost nothing but attack enemy air defences for 2 days (with the odd strike on command and control nodes). Russia didn't bother with any of that and just invaded with no preparation - which went about as well as you'd expect.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Danny 14 - Re: A Quantitative Easing Program in Military Guise?

        If I am not mistaking, hundreds of millions USD and equipment are being poured into Ukraine so where are they going ? Last time, if I recall correctly, Canada has sent 200 millions to keep the Ukrainian government functioning. And they were not the only one sending money there. Something is telling me the Ukrainian people must suffer in order for someone to prove a point.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @Danny 14 - A Quantitative Easing Program in Military Guise?

          Amongst other things it is going to repairs of civilian infrastructure that is deliberately targetted, in a policy of using civilian casualties to try and force a surrender. It is also supporting keeping a civilian population alive with the country in a war situation where many of the essentials of survival (food, water, heat) can no longer be taken for granted. A sizeable chunk is also going to provide the defenders with the means to repel the invading hordes whilst also giving their soldiers the best chances of getting out of this alive (a great many haven't, and many more are not likely to).

          The point that Putin might have wanted to make is long gone, he is now trying to ensure his own survival and does not particularly care who suffers (on either side) to achieve that.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: A Quantitative Easing Program in Military Guise?

      >No monies for welfare and wages and food and heating and homes

      Hey shareholders deserve welfare too

  4. Headley_Grange Silver badge

    Jump Jets Are Go!

    Finally, a replacement for the Harrier. I can't wait to see them hovering above a location near to me.

  5. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
    Trollface

    Yay!

    Up with the military industrial complex! MOAR PORK!

    Let's not think too hard about how we could gainfully apply this kind of funding to, for example, combating global warming or funding schools.

    1. Danny 14

      Re: Yay!

      or rebuilding ukraine after their warmongering neighbour kicked the shit out of their infrastructure.

      1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
        Angel

        Re: Yay!

        For good or ill, I think the economic opportunity represented by rebuilding Ukraine plus the opportunity to burnish various organizations' humanitarian credentials will ensure a massive influx of cash and labor into Ukraine. This may be a very good thing for European building and power concerns and help pull the region out of recession. Plus it's a windfall for the military-industrial complex, since they now get to replenish the depleted ammo and weaponry stocks of the various nations which have sent armaments to Ukraine.

        To say nothing of the pending boom in the Russian mail-order bride business, what with all the dead Russian men.

        It's an ill wind that blows nobody no good.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @Throatwarbler Mangrove - Re: Yay!

          You forgot to add weakening EU economy, scaring small Eastern European countries into increasing their buy of weaponry and military tech, becoming oil and gas supplier of EU (at least they're truing hard here), rebuilding a post-pandemic economy, getting rid of a nuclear power without firing a single bullet. It is an ill wind but only for some. For others it's a windfall and I'll let you the task of finding who are the lucky ones.

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: @Throatwarbler Mangrove - Yay!

            anon coward,

            If the Russian government didn't want to totally fuck up their economy, society and military - they shouldn't have launched an unprovoked and disastrous war of aggression against their neighbours. But they did. All the other effects you're complaining about stem from that poor decision. Not helped by certain countries in Europe deciding to rely on this same Russian government as a strategic and economic partner (cough! Germany cough!).

    2. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Re: Yay!

      Is this honest news, identifying both principal and unprincipled warmongers alike, bankrupting/kicking the $hit out of the US dollar infrastructure [develop and print, print, print and keep printing more crazy fiat tales until wholesale and retail values reaches zero] ....... with its key players and support teams being not so much the caged canary in a coalmine, much more the trapped tragic trojan or comedic parody of a mole or mighty mouse in a thoroughly hacked and permanently cracked economy capturing system digging a deep and dark burial hole for itself? ...... Defense Aid To Ukraine Tops $20 Billion As New $275M Package Announced

      And if it isn't, as many might surely say and bay, is everything going to be okay and go another way?

      Or will problems for warmongerers get steadily worse and expand and develop in almighty stealth in ways and means and memes clearly demonstrating abilities and utilities and facilities beyond their command and control and any effective remote second and third party energy and power leverage?

      You might like to consider, if universal geo-political landscapes are your game, such is where you and IT and AI is at presently today ..... and with much more to follow in every new day which the future delivers for Novel and Noble Content and ACTive IT Supply.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Old hat?

    One hard constraint on piloted flying war machines to date is that they had to return the pilots back home with a "reasonable" success rate.

    Drones, either remotely controlled or autonomous, do not have that hard constraint. Even if they are built to be able to return, the penalty for not returning is far less because it does not entail loss of human life. Moreover, as they may be cheaper to manufacture, the penalty for not returning is even less, allowing greater risk taking and therefore a more effective weapon. Cheaper also allows manufacturing higher quantity.

    Reading about the F-35, the B-21 and now these new cooperative efforts, I wonder where the news about drone development is. Going through all the effort and expense of developing piloted planes that, just maybe, as an afterthought, will later be able to fly without a pilot, is wrong, very expensive, approach to developing non-piloted aircraft.

    I guess the military establishment of the West not really into moving fast and breaking things ... oh wait!

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Old hat?

      I guess the military establishment of the West not really into moving fast and breaking things ... oh wait!

      Breaking budgets is very profitable for the defence industry. Current events should probably give a better sense of priorities though.

      So how would a B-21 be used in Ukraine? Ukraine would need to spend a lot of money to buy, fly and maintain them. Not that the US would likely export them to anyone. If Ukraine did have them, the first thing Russia probably would have done is twat the airbases they operate from.

      If NATO's operating them, US pilots could fly inside Polish airspace and lob stand-off missiles across the border. If it's lobbing long range missiles from outside hostile airspace, it doesn't really need to be that stealthy. Or it needs to be stealthy across it's entire mission, otherwise hostile nations can jus watch the airbases they're operating from. And if it turns out they aren't really that stealthy, then they're rather pointless.

      The US released a video showing racks of cruise missiles being pushed out of a cargo plane recently. That seems a stealthier approach because an enemy wouldn't know if a cargo plane is a bomber. And it's a lot cheaper way to deliver stand-off capability.

      What should be pretty obvious is we lack logistics. There's currently a peer-level war. Russia's probably going to win because it seems able to churn out artillery, rockets, missiles and drones far faster than we can. China is probably aware of this and doing the math about responses in Taiwan, if we're out of ammo.

      I think the obvious response should be quantity rather than quality. Dump B-21s, build ammo factories. Perhaps make a Unibomb that can be offered in dumb, frag and smart versions. But something that can be fired out of artillery, stuck on a rocket or missile, or slap fins on it and dropped by drone or aircraft. It also looks like we could really do with our own Pantsir-style air defence system so drones or slow missiles could be engaged with guns, and save million-dollar missiles for the harder, more strategic threats.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Old hat?

        Jellied Eel,

        What in the last 10 months of clusterfuck convinces you that Russia is going to win the war in Ukraine?

        I mean it's possible they might win. Wars are uncertain after all. And being able to outlast Ukraine is clearly the thing Russia are trying - after the failure of multiple offensives and destruction of a large part of their peacetime army.

        But Ukraine aren't going to run out of ammo, unless the Western powers abandon them. Which, again, is possible but looks unlikely. Ukraine aren't even out of Soviet calibre artillery ammo, because having exhausted their own, and Eastern Europe's stocks there are factories in Poland and elsewhere churning out new shells. Plus countries like Britain have been buying old stock from all sorts of places (like Pakistan) and shipping them in. Not that it looks like either side can keep up previous rates of fire. Even for Ukraine who've now been given NATO calibre artillery, which there are still stocks for, and orders have been placed for more.

        The two big worries I think are tank shells, and air defence. I don't know if we can start building Soviet era tank ammo for Ukraine or if the long-term answer will be to re-equip them with Leopard or the US Marine Corps' old Abrams. Leopard would be better (it's lighter) but Germany are a porblem.

        Air defence is the opposite problem. We're now equipping Ukraine with NASAMS and IRIS-T which use exisiting air-to-air missiles as ammo, of which NATO has large stocks. But we don't have many launchers to give - and are having to resort to buying new ones and shipping them to Ukraine off the production lines. Which is slow. A stop-gap might be to dump old stuff from storage on them, like Hawk.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Old hat?

          What in the last 10 months of clusterfuck convinces you that Russia is going to win the war in Ukraine?

          Evidence? Problem we have is a media that either hasn't got a clue, or is deliberately pushing propaganda. It says Russia is losing because it hasn't captured Kiev yet. But Russia isn't fighting a war for territory. It said at the outset that it's objective was to destroy Ukraine's miltary capability.

          And being able to outlast Ukraine is clearly the thing Russia are trying - after the failure of multiple offensives and destruction of a large part of their peacetime army.

          It only committed a small fraction of it's peacetime army. It's only mobilised a fraction of it's potential reserves. It, unlike Ukraine hasn't even started any serious conscription.

          But Ukraine aren't going to run out of ammo, unless the Western powers abandon them. Which, again, is possible but looks unlikely. Ukraine aren't even out of Soviet calibre artillery ammo, because having exhausted their own, and Eastern Europe's stocks there are factories in Poland and elsewhere churning out new shells. Plus countries like Britain have been buying old stock from all sorts of places (like Pakistan) and shipping them in.

          So why is Zelensky on TV every day demanding more ammunition, more weapons, more money? Ukraine is running out of ammunition. It doesn't have much, if any remaining ammunition production capacity. It's firing around 600 rounds a day. Poland's and other ex-Warsaw Pact converted to NATO, so switched from 152mm to 155mm. The US can produce around 30,000 rounds a year, and hopes to increase production some time in the next few years. Other countries are looking at this conflict, their neighbours and thinking maybe they need to increase their own stocks, not deplete them. Meanwhile, Russia kept it's arms industries mostly state-owned, and is churning out ammunition 24x7.

          But running out of ammunition isn't really the problem for Ukraine, it's running out of people. There have been reports that Ukraine's losing the equivalent of a battalion a day. It can't sustain that, especially as Russia's also hitting Ukraine's energy and logistics infrastructure hard.

          The two big worries I think are tank shells, and air defence. I don't know if we can start building Soviet era tank ammo for Ukraine or if the long-term answer will be to re-equip them with Leopard or the US Marine Corps' old Abrams. Leopard would be better (it's lighter) but Germany are a porblem.

          We've been going around museums scraping together T-55s to donate. Sure, maybe they could get some Leopards, Challengers or Abrams, But they have to be able to operate and maintain them. It's a long rail trip from the front back to Poland for repairs as well. Plus there's a small challenge with fuel. Tanks use a lot of that. Diesel's in increasingly short supply, especially if Ukraine's having to dust off old diesel locomotives, and use generators for electricity. Plus of course Russia's been striking Ukraine's POL depots, and Russia isn't exactly short of fuel or energy.

          Air defence is the opposite problem. We're now equipping Ukraine with NASAMS and IRIS-T which use exisiting air-to-air missiles as ammo, of which NATO has large stocks. But we don't have many launchers to give - and are having to resort to buying new ones and shipping them to Ukraine off the production lines. Which is slow. A stop-gap might be to dump old stuff from storage on them, like Hawk.

          The problem is we're shooting $1m+ missiles at $20k drones. Or there was the recent story of 'nuclear capable' missiles with concrete warheads being used. That, of course was spun as Russia running out of missiles again. Not Russia doing what we did during the opening rounds of GW1 and using decoys to locate GBAD, measure response/cycle time and just get your enemy to waste missiles. And we're so short on air defences that we have been offering pre-loved stuff like Hawks.. But only after it's been refurbished. Assuming 1970's tech can be refurbished given parts and skills availability.

          Which is why I think billion dollar boondoggles like the B-21 are a bit pointless, assuming it actually exists and isn't just a PR stunt to try and get Russia to the table for arms control talks. Or Russia may just shrug, and order a thousand more S-500 missiles to deal with the <=100 B-21s that may or may not be ordered, or just intercept any stand-off missiles they fire.

          It would seem far more sensible to me to correct the deficiencies this peer-level conflict has highlighted. As someone once said, quantity has a quality all of it's own. We de-industrialised, Russia didn't. We were the 'Arsenal of Democracy', now we're obsessed by the correct use of pronouns and how mean Musk is being. Especially given Iran and China are still seemingly on our to-do list. We're going to invade them.. with what? Unsuprisingly, we've pushed Russia, Iran and China closer together, and they have far more resources and capacity than we do, especially as we continue to draw down war stocks to donate to Ukraine.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Old hat?

            "Unsuprisingly, we've pushed Russia, Iran and China closer together .. ."

            I don't think China is at all happy with the course of action Russia has taken - they were happily quietly taking over various parts of the world with their belt and road policy whilst doing a bit of "gentle" sabre rattling around Taiwan to keep the attention away from elsewhere.

            All three of the countries you mention have significant internal issues going on as well, which will prove more challenging than dealing with external matters. The thumping Russia is getting in Ukraine is not likely to encourage China to heat up any conflict with the West, but there look to be a great number of emerging opportunities in the eastern provinces of a somewhat weak and disorganised Russia. China has never had any great love of Russia and during the height of the cold war distrusted it as much (if not more) than the West - its current rather rash behaviour will not have endeared it to them. There will be exploitable opportunities for China - but that will be done for China's benefit, not any common cause with Russia. A weak major neighbour worried about its western borders, and with resource rich provinces on your border sounds like a good start. The fact that its military complex has been seen wanting is likely to mean that a number of its customers will be looking elsewhere for a supplier - and now being the clear No.2 superpower is a good marketing position (and helps politically).

            Iran might be hoping that their missile & drone export business might pick up - but that still looks to be uncertain (and likely to attract attention from others in that region).

            But on the whole I think the Chinese might be looking on this as an interesting time.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Old hat?

              The thumping Russia is getting in Ukraine is not likely to encourage China to heat up any conflict with the West, but there look to be a great number of emerging opportunities in the eastern provinces of a somewhat weak and disorganised Russia.

              Possible, but Russia isn't getting a thumping. It's probably also why Russia hasn't committed much of it's forces to Ukraine given it's got a long border to defend. Meanwhile, not content with sanctioning a major energy and resource supplier, the US has also decided to sanction China. The US and other parts of the West are starting to experience a shortage of antibiotics and other pharmaceuticals. I wonder which country produces those?

              And then there was Merkel, and her comments about Minsk. Do a 'peace deal', guaranteed by the West. But typically for a German Chancellor, it was just an opportunity to train and arm Ukraine so they could retake DPR & LPR. Or try to. That hasn't exactly worked out well for Ukraine, and probably hasn't helped engender trust with the West. Hence why Russia hasn't been too impressed with suggestions for a ceasefire, or Zelensky's plea for Russia to withdraw by xmas. Our political elite have just shown they can't be trusted, and Russia's proceeding to systematically destroy Ukraine's military. And inflict serious economic and political damage on the EU, NATO and the West in general at the same time.

              The fact that its military complex has been seen wanting is likely to mean that a number of its customers will be looking elsewhere for a supplier - and now being the clear No.2 superpower is a good marketing position (and helps politically).

              That may be projection. Ally with the West and if you get into a conflict, we may be able to deliver you ammunition resupplies in 3-5yrs. I made an error in my previous post and missed a zero off rounds fired by Ukraine. It's 5-6000 a day. Latest tranche from the US is 18,000 rounds, or less than a week's expenditure. Annual output from the US is around 30,000 rounds, or less than a month. Wuderwaffe like HIMARS are hoping to ramp up production to 96 units at year. Meanwhile, despite our experts assuring us that Russia would be out of ammo by last March, they don't seem to be short. Plus there was a convoy of 200 brand new T-92's heading from Russia to Ukraine, or essentially the entirety of Germany's Leopard inventory.

              So any nation looking to do a spot of xmas shopping might be reconsidering buying from the West.

              I think Taiwan's more interesting though. We've poked the bear, we're poking the dragon. We're slowly realising we might actually need to re-industrialise to support conflicts agains peer-level opponents, and not just counter insurgency conflicts. Saudi's also been busilly demonstrating this with their war against Yemen. China may decide there's a window of opportunity where the West's stocks are low, and it'll be a good opportunity to resolve the Taiwan issue. We've been sanctioning Iran and interferring in their domestic affairs for years, and they've been pushing back. Israel's been itching for someone to conquer Iran, but now there's closer co-operation between Russia, China and Iran, so that window is closing.

              But that's politics. We decided it was a smart idea for the West to start a proxy war with Russia and use NATO trained and equipped Ukrainians to do so. That isn't going very well, and the West is looking rather impotent. Which is probably why our politicians are determined to win at any cost to Ukraine.. But then it's not our politicians doing the bleeding, or freezing. They're just doing the usual politician thing and getting richer.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Old hat?

                T72's or T90's?

                No such thing as a T-92

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Old hat?

                  Perhaps they found some old (1950s) US T92 light tanks they had purloined during the Cold War.

                2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Old hat?

                  Yup, my bad. But how many new tanks has the EU produced in the last say, 5 years? How many a year could it produce, and how quickly would it be able to build production capacity?

                  Again it's the fault of our politicians. They've been creating threats and instability across the world, and now Putin's revealed the Empire has no clothes. Sure, we eventually defeated a bunch of farmers in Afghanistan (joking), but this has exposed structural weaknesses in the West. We clearly can't fight this kind of war, and NATO's security guarantees are looking rather toothless. But buy our very expensive weapons, just don't use them because replacements will be out of stock for a decade.

                  It's why the announcement of the B-21 is a bit crazy, and our political leaders don't seem to have been paying attention. NATO needs to switch to quantity, not massively expensive flying pork barrels. But someone probably told Biden the Russians are closing in on New York, and they'll soon be entering Stinky.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Old hat?

                "The US and other parts of the West are starting to experience a shortage of antibiotics and other pharmaceuticals. I wonder which country produces those?"

                Another reason I believe China is not too happy with Russia - the Russian's use of gas supply as a weapon has strengthened committment within the West to both military preparedness and strategic protection of critical infrastructure and capabilities.

                "And then there was Merkel, and her comments about Minsk.

                I don't think the Germans (and particularly Fr Merkel) are overly popular with either side or their allies. The German attempt to cosy up to Russia through commercial ties on gas supply was very concerning to many who worried that it would be weaponized to threaten and cajole Western Europe to bow to Russia's demands. So a lot of people (outside the Bundestag) not surprised when that happened! Both in the current war, and previously, Germany has also hindered supply/export of jointly developed weapon systems - which causes concerns for future collaborative work in Europe. (And apropos the original article it is a joy to see Germany and France engaged on a separate programme - long may it continue).

                "Hence why Russia hasn't been too impressed with suggestions for a ceasefire, ... "

                More likely because it does not immediately cede to Russia's demands and guarantee their landgrab.

                "Our political elite have just shown they can't be trusted, ..."

                Just!!! There have been plenty of reasons given over decades and centuries. However, in the grand scheme of things I would trust them much much more than I would anything emanating from the Russian leadership.

                "... and Russia's proceeding to systematically destroy Ukraine's military."

                I think "systematically" is doing a lot of lifting there. Ukraine is definitely suffering greatly, and not just their military (thanks to the brutal policies of the Russian invaders). Ukraine has also been limited by restrictions placed on the use of the weapons given to it - the West does not want them landing on Russian territory. However, judging by the rise of "incidents" within Russia it is starting to look like the Ukranians might have got some indigenous weapons they can use in that role.

                "Ally with the West and if you get into a conflict, we may be able to deliver you ammunition resupplies in 3-5yrs."

                My comment addressed the potential benefit to China's military industrial complex (who amongst other things already make much better MiGs than the Russians do). Many of those doing business with Russia are already very aware that the West can be fickle about with whom, when and why they do business. China have often been more accommodating, but those agreements tend to have quite a sting in their tail (but that is SEP) - and I don't think China will be giving away xmas presents.

                "Plus there was a convoy of 200 brand new T-92's heading from Russia to Ukraine, or essentially the entirety of Germany's Leopard inventory."

                Whatever model these might turn out to be, there is also the question of what training the crews might have had.

                I suspect that there are already many planners in many militaries studying the data from this war very carefully and preparing plans for future stockpiles and replenishment. (Another reason China will be unhappy with Russia).

                "We've poked the bear, we're poking the dragon.

                There is plenty of poking going on from all sides, and some of it none to subtle. Have you ever visited Salisbury?

                "China may decide there's a window of opportunity where the West's stocks are low, and it'll be a good opportunity to resolve the Taiwan issue."

                Realistically the US Carrier Fleet is the only thing capable of making a military intervention here (short of the nuclear option), and Russia is not the only one keeping an eye along its entire front. Western forces are not boots on the ground engaged, so they are not pinned. There have been much better opportunities for China to go for the blunt force solution - but externally they have tended to prefer a more cautious long game approach. They always could, but then that has always been the case.

                "We decided it was a smart idea for the West to start a proxy war with Russia and use NATO trained and equipped Ukrainians to do so."

                Or, Mr Putin decided that he could make a quick power grab having got away with grabbing Crimea. He thought he could achieve a take-over in 3 days, murder the existing leadership in Kyiv (and anyone else he did not like the look of), leverage Germany's reliance on Russian gas along with a general passiveness in the West to prevent a response to what would be a fait-accompli.

                That isn't going very well because he had not appreciated the extent that the corruption endemic throughout Russia also pervaded the military. And, rather than looking impotent, the West's approach to military operations (which they had been taking onboard since Crimea) coupled with the courage of the Ukrainians bought Ukraine the time to mobilize themselves and support from the West.

                "But then it's not our politicians doing the bleeding, or freezing.

                It is not Mr Putin, or the people of Moscow, doing the bleeding or freezing either. By comparison our politicians are mostly acquiting themselves honourably (though they also need to be held to account for some other dodgy behaviour).

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Old hat?

                  Another reason I believe China is not too happy with Russia - the Russian's use of gas supply as a weapon has strengthened committment within the West to both military preparedness and strategic protection of critical infrastructure and capabilities.

                  China's probably loving it. They're getting lots of cheap oil & gas from Russia. And once again, it was the West that used energy as a weapon by sanctioning Russia's supplies. Plus of course blowing up Nord Stream. A genius move by our leaders that's being reflected in our economies.

                  I think "systematically" is doing a lot of lifting there. Ukraine is definitely suffering greatly, and not just their military (thanks to the brutal policies of the Russian invaders).

                  There's nothing brutal about it. We did exactly the same thing in the Balkans, intentionally targeting power grids and other infrastructure. Ukraine's been shelling Donetsk since 2014, including using cluster bombs and air deployed mines. Israel regularly 'mows the lawn' and bombs apartment buildings in Gaza. So it's a bit hypocritical to condemn Russia for using the same tactics that we, or our alllies use.

                  There is plenty of poking going on from all sides, and some of it none to subtle. Have you ever visited Salisbury?

                  Yep. Scene of that rather ineffective chemical attack. A couple of weeks ago, there was a story that the 'Newcomer' may be appearing in Ukraine. But that may just be because Russia has also been targetting Ukraine's CBW labs.

                  Realistically the US Carrier Fleet is the only thing capable of making a military intervention here (short of the nuclear option), and Russia is not the only one keeping an eye along its entire front.

                  Yep. Again where current events have been educational. It's not really been a naval conflict, but Russia lost Moskva to a fairly basic attack, then fended off another drone attack at Sevastopol. Iran demonstrated drone swarms against mock US ships, this conflict has demonstrated the effectiveness of drone and missile swarms. Overload the defences, or mix the threats and those CBGs become rather vulnerable. Again a quantity vs quality thing, plus the effectiveness of carrier based air power vs modern GBAD. In Ukraine, that's currently prevented Russia from using a lot of it's air power, but Ukraine's running out of missiles. They may be about to get a few Patriots, but $3m missiles vs swarms of <$50,000 drones is a pretty cold equation. Especially as Patriot batteries aren't very mobile.

                  Or, Mr Putin decided that he could make a quick power grab having got away with grabbing Crimea. He thought he could achieve a take-over in 3 days,

                  Crimea is Russian. Sure, removing Russia's naval base was one of our objectives, but it didn't work out. Russia didn't invade Crimea, it's population just didn't want to be ruled by a virulently anti-Russian regime in Kiev. The same regime that's banned opposition parties, banned media. banned Russian literature, and has been busily raiding Russian Orthodox churches and arresting priests. Yet we gave Zelensky the Time 'Man of the Year', just after Ukraine's courts decided that using the SS Galacia Division's flag for one of it's units. Then again, Germany created that division to 'fight Bolsheviks', and it's traditions live on.

                  He thought he could achieve a take-over in 3 days, murder the existing leadership in Kyiv (and anyone else he did not like the look of),

                  Alternatively, Ukraine had been building up forces in preperation to attack the DPR and LPR, in breach of the Minsk Agreements. We were ok with that, because as Merkel pointed out, that was the plan all along. Russia naturally objected to the reoccupation of the Rhineland.. I mean Donbas, especially after 8yrs of Ukraine killing around 14,000 of it's own people during the post-2014 civil war. It's strange the way history is repeating itself with another ultra-nationalist regime popping up in Europe. So we ignore Russia, and supported Ukraine's re-armament, knowing full well how that was going to be used. A bit strange given we're all supposed to be EUropean now, not nationalists in a rich, vibrant, multi-ethnic society.

                  So Russia invaded, but with nowhere near enough forces to really threaten Kiev. It did however force Ukraine to re-deploy forces away from Donbas to counter that threat, or potentially force Ukraine to talk terms. But we prevented that. Ukraine must bleed for us to stop Russia. Plus of course Ukraine's nationalists have threatened to kill Zelensky if he tries for peace. So Russia's been content to watch the sanctions blowback on us. It's mobilised more reserves, and is sending more equipment into Ukraine. In a case of wishful thinking, our 'experts' assured us that there'd be a ceasefire over winter. Instead, it should have been obvious that Russia was preparing for a winter war. It's been preparing for that with the infrastructure attacks, and once the ground's frozen enough, I suspect we'll see Russian advances to break through Ukraine's fortifications, which leaves the rest of the country very exposed.

                  And short of direct intervention, there's very little we can do to prevent that.

  7. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    IOW Another big bag of cash going to Billions Above Estimate.

    OTOH it might use engine precooling to up the top speed which means some support for Reaction Engines to (maybe) advance SABRE and Skylon.

    BAE will no doubt tell the MoD what it wants hear (as usual) and milk them for however much cash they can get out of them till someone in the MoD wakes up and realizes WTF they want doesn't actually exist

    I love advanced tech.

    But boy do I hate the idea of any military con-tractor getting money on general principles.

  8. Horst U Rodeinon
    Joke

    What I really want to know

    Will they name the AI? Will they name it Eddie?

    1. JoeCool Bronze badge

      Re: What I really want to know

      Nope. Try "Hand of Skynet".

    2. Trigonoceps occipitalis

      Re: What I really want to know

      HAL, what could possibly go wrong?

      1. Lil Endian Silver badge

        Re: What I really want to know

        Reading lips sinks ships?

        1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
          Terminator

          Re: What I really want to know

          & gets you killed by computer controlled EVA pods & getting locked out of spaceships!

          1. Lil Endian Silver badge
            Terminator

            Re: What I really want to know

            Hello Frank Oncoming, can I have a word with you?

            Uh-oh!

    3. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Devil

      Re: What I really want to know

      It'll be a double bluff. They're name the AI Clippy.

      "It looks like you're trying start World War III. Can I help you with that?"

      1. Lil Endian Silver badge
        Stop

        Re: What I really want to know

        That, or a one-dimensional bread-obsessed electrical appliance!

        My word (yep!) imagine those two together! Ouchie, that hurts to think about!

        "I have a question. A sensible question. Can I help you with that?" ad infinitum...

        [Icon: they just won't...]

    4. SCP

      Re: What I really want to know

      Just be careful what conversations you strike up with #20, and certainly do not try and teach it phenomenology.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Our track record in developing military hardware is patchy. Remember TSR2 anybody? And the recent lightweight tank that morphed into a heavy tank that shook it's crew to bits? Meddling ministers and technically illiterate administrative personnel are the bane of success.

    1. Tony.
      Black Helicopters

      'Meddling ministers'

      Yep, also you can be sure all the usual US companies who hope to sell us their latest fighter will be lobbying to try to kill the project. (As apparently, they did to help kill the TSR2)

      1. cryptopants

        Re: 'Meddling ministers'

        It doesn’t matter who makes the airplane. European governments aren’t going to buy more than a few dozen examples at most of any aircraft.

        They aren’t the US government which procures systems in the triple digits. US defense firms aren’t that desperate. They are already far larger and richer than any of the European defense firms just from the business they sell domestically.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: 'Meddling ministers'

          cryptopants,

          This is why getting Japan on board is such a God-send. One of the big problems with Typhoon is that Germany, Italy and Spain wouldn't spend money on many of the upgrades. Not that our MoD are paragons of virtue or anything, but it's a problem with many European partners. Obviously not helped by the end of the Cold War slowing the whole program down. Eurofighter is a damned good aircraft now, with lots of shiny upgrades to the radars just coming on stream - which ought to have happened 5-10 years ago.

          France do spend better on keeping things up to date, but are terrible industrial partners - who've a history of joining European aircraft programs only to bugger-off in a hissy-fit halfway through. Germany and Spain are currently suffering from this in the FCAS program, where Dassault are trying to get them to ponly up half the money in a joint program, while Dassault keep all the IP to themselves. I suspect the project will go ahead for political reasons - but Typhoon and Tornado were the two big European successes - both of which France abandoned halfway through and were taken to success by the UK, Germany and Italy (with Spain also in Typhoon).

          Japan do have a habit of spending well on defence. And hopefully, having a partner willing to open their chequebooks for updates will keep our government honest about regular spending on regular updates. If we could persuade Germany to jump ship and join us that would also be great for getting a decent chunk of initial orders. But I think FCAS have recently patched up their differences sufficiently that it'll last another few years - at which point it'll be too late to jump ship and still be a major industrial partner.

    2. Lil Endian Silver badge

      TSR2: The Revenge of Borland Sidekick!

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Thumb Up

        TSR2: The Revenge of Borland Sidekick!

        Nice.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "Meddling ministers and technically illiterate administrative personnel "

      True.

      In fact TSR2 was a fixed wing aircraft to fill such a broad set of needs that when something was finally bought (the US pitched a "special" version of the FB111 to the UK. Nothing actually got delivered) only the swing-wing Tornado could fly the whole range of missions. Lord Mountbatten constant lobbying for the Buccanneer didn't help.

      The root-cause of the TSR spec-creep was that in 1956 the Defense Minister (Duncan Sandy's) issued a White Paper saying all crewed aircraft aircraft and missiles could handle all RAF missions. He was then preoccupied explaining the dick pix taken with a Polaroid camera (the only one in the country at the time being on loan to the MoD) were not his

      Trying to clean up the retarded clusterf**k of the "Sandy's Storm) meant that TSR2 (and it's subsidary programmes for tires, lubricants, flight suits, avionics etc) were basically carrying the entire UK military aircraft industry.

      Meanwhile the suits from the MoD were keen to merge all of these companies together to create a "National champion".

      Which got the UK the UK's favourite defense con-tractor BAE.

      This history is not a secrete. Bill Gunston has written extensively on it, as have others.

      1. Jonathan Richards 1

        Re: "Meddling ministers and technically illiterate administrative personnel "

        OT, sort of. Duncan Sandys had no apostrophe. Written 'Sandys", but pronounced 'Sands'.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    That's strange...

    I swear the Remoaners told us that as an unimportant, irrelevant backwater, large international collaborations, especially with European partners, would be absolutely out of the question after Brexit.

    1. Woodnag

      ...not strange, NATO

      Military isn't normal business.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: ...not strange, NATO

        That was another claim by the Remoaners, that the UK's defence would somehow be undermined by Brexit, completely forgetting about NATO.

    2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Happy

      "I swear the Remoaners told.... "

      And I swore the number of quitters who'd have the guts to put their names on a post and admit they voted leave in 2016 woud (by 2026) be less than were prepared to admit they voted for Oswald Mosely's British Union of Fascists in 1936 by the end of WWII

      Looks like I'm right on course for my prediction coming true Mr (or Ms) AC.

      1. Lil Endian Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: "I swear the Remoaners told.... "

        Thank you for giving me a genuine laugh! My stomach hurts!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "I swear the Remoaners told.... "

        How is posting AC any different to posting as "John Smith 19"?

        You Remoaners sure are a bitter bunch!

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "How is posting AC any different to posting as "John Smith 19"?

          Whooosh.

          Still Mr (or Ms) AC you showed the EU, right? You stood up to be counted. You and the other 15 million (who are still alive) that voted for this.

          As one of the delusional/greedy/gullible types who Dominic Cummins managed to play like an orchestra of banjos at an Ozark hoedown.

          The Remain campaign thought leaving the EU was mad.

          They failed to consider it was possible to form a coalition-of-the-mad and the British education systems astonishing ability to turn out people with poor (or non existent) critical thinking skills AKA bu***hit detection, who would believe whatever crap they were spoon-fed by their conspiracy theories, propoganda, ads, general lunatic rantings "news" feed on their favourite social medial platforms.

          Something I'm sure that will be considered the next time this question comes up.

    3. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

      Re: That's strange...

      Riiiight, because you are in the market for a 6th generation fighter jet and this is a Brexit bonus for you personally? The delusion of Brexitards is immense.

  11. Yorick Hunt Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Just like Trump's "6G"

    Labelling something "sixth gen" doesn't make it so - and in the sphere where they've yet to get a 4.5G flying rock (which they've labelled 5G) to go for more than a few hours without having to reboot, you KNOW that this is nothing more than a PR campaign to syphon cash out of the pockets of the gullible.

  12. Lordrobot

    Rising tensions with Russia and China? Try Murica

    It is good that Italy, UK, and the other one... oh yeah JAPAN... are building their own fighter plane so they can use them against Murica when they finally get sick of being bullied by the John Wayners. Oh yeah and how exactly have Tensions risen because of CHINER? Is Chiner threatening to not send Electric Blankets to Europe this winter?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Software, Agile Development, Killing Machines.....

    ....what could possibly go wrong?

    Well......at one point the military officer in charge of F-35 software development went up to "The Hill" to report on the F-35. He commented that the F-35 software would not be "combat ready" for another six months!! If El Reg readers would like an overview of this sort of billion dollar f*ck up, try reading this from 2021:

    - Link: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/03/23/f-35-program-not-moving-quick-enough-to-get-software-out-on-time-congressional-watchdog-finds/

    Quote: "...delays could lead to cost increases and capabilities becoming outdated before they ever reach the flight line...."

    Huh? A multi-billion dollar program.....nearly one billion a pop for one aircraft.....and what we get is "capabilities becoming outdated before they ever reach the flight line"!!!

    Your taxpayer dollar at work!!! Expect more of the same in the programs for 2035 described in this El Reg piece!!!

  14. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    "nearly one billion a pop for one aircraft.."

    No, more like < $100m/ aircraft

    OTOH the B21 "Raider" stealth bomber is about $1Bn/aircraft.

    LM pitched the F35 build process by a)Using production tooling for the development aircraft b)Rolling out any improvements by fixing them in the field

    The ideal aircraft for this model is one that is a)Very conventional (little/no ground breaking tech) b)Unlikely to need major upgrades just to provide basic capability.

    The Hawker Siddley Hawk was one such (very successful) aircraft built this way.

    The F35 is nothing like a good choice for this model of construction. :-(

    Turns out when this model of construction is applied to something like the F35 it's a recipe for massive bills to the DoD

    And massive profits to LM.

    Funny how that works is it not?

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So how many years late

    and billions over budget will this "success" story be?

    1. seven of five

      Re: So how many years late

      "World Beating"?

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: So how many years late

      I reckon they'll get the demonstrator flying near enough to the planned 2030.

      The idea that the first models will be in service by 2035 seems a bit... Optimistic? Unlikely? Delusional?

      On the other hand F35 has been built now - as the first high production rate stealth aircraft. And a lot of the problems with that program are now software related. So if this can be less ambitious with the software - maybe it won't be as horribly delayed?

      But the defence-industrial relationship with Japan is also quite new. So there could always be a massive falling-out there, to make things more fun.

  16. Ashto5

    AI & VR & ML

    Will this thing actually need a pilot ?

    As long as it has a credit card registered it will be able to download the next patch on its own.

    Still it will be awesome.

  17. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    BTW BAE have a big slice of the F35 radar system. It's programmed in C++, not Ada

    They persuaded LM and the DoD that it would save them money.

    And it has saved BAE plenty. In hiring.

    Quality wise. Not so good.

    1. SCP

      Re: BTW BAE have a big slice of the F35 radar system. It's programmed in C++, not Ada

      I thought the F-35 radar was Northrop Grumman kit! Are you thinking of the EW system?

      BTW I think the decision on not having Ada on F-35 was not a BAE Systems one - that decision was taken at a much higher level.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        I thought the F-35 radar was Northrop Grumman kit! Are you thinking of the EW system?

        This is what they say themselves

        "We have made a significant contribution to 3i, including producing software for the fuel management system, on-board vehicle systems, structural health management and elements of the navigation and cockpit display system."

        Yes you're right it was the DoD decision to allow C++.

        A decision US taxpayer will be paying for decades from now.

        I think you're right. I also think that the "Mission data packages" have to come from the US (as US not sharing the code to generate them) basically means all of these aircraft are bricked if the UK (or any other buyer) wants to fly a mission the US don't approve of.

  18. Potemkine! Silver badge

    And in the end they will all buy US warplanes.

    Developing a parallel program to an already existing European one is a mistake. Italy should know better.

    The only reason I see is that national companies want the biggest share, even if it's a win all / loose all situation.

    == Bring us Dabbsy back! ==

    1. Zolko Silver badge

      And both European programs are nearly identical. I dodn't understand why they don't make several fighters for several missions: training and small missions (à-la Alpha-Jet or F5), ground attack (à-la A10), air-superiority and interception (à-la Su-27, F22), VTOL (à-la Harrier), carrier-based (à-la F14) ... They always try to make these one-size-fits-all aircraft, whereas anybody actually building and flying aircraft knows that there is no such thing.

      1. EvilDrSmith Silver badge

        The cost of developing multiple aircraft types is greater than designing just one.

        Specialist aircraft types designed for a single specific role means you end up with airforces that have small fleets of multiple aircraft, meaning smaller production runs for each type: development costs are recovered through cost of the production airframes; with fewer aircraft produced, each carries a larger proportion of the development cost (ie, each production aircraft in a small production run is more expensive than when it comes from a large production run).

        Spare parts (including tools, possibly) tend to be specific to an aircraft type - multiple types means multiple spares and consumables, and the logistics to handle them.

        Pilots and ground crew (maintainers) are trained on a particular airframe - 1 aircraft type means all your personnel can fly/fix all your aircraft. Multiple aircraft types mean you need to make sure you have enough of the correctly trained personnel at the right place and the right time.

        Since the end of WWII, there has been a tendency for airforces to become smaller, as aircraft become more advanced/more capable/ more expensive - many countries' air forces are little more than 1 or 2 squadrons of top-end combat aircraft, and such countries can't afford to have specialist types.

        'One-size-fits-all' is thus a pragmatic and affordable approach.

        It's also not as bad as it's portrayed. There have been a number of aircraft that were capable of handling a wide range of missions (Hunter, F4 Phantom), though generally had to take off armed and equipped for a specific mission type, and a number of newer aircraft (Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen) show genuine 'swing role' capability - go up armed for ground attack, but use or dump the air-to-ground weaponry and they are serious air-to-air contenders.

        The A10 role (low and slow and soaking up damage while doing bad things to troops and tanks on the ground) is only for airforces that are big enough to have that specialty, or small and not tasked with providing air defence (And is increasingly regarded as a role for the 1970's and 1980's, and not viable over a modern battlefield, though that is a different discussion).

        The two European projects reflect differences in national requirements (in-service date, weight of aircraft, range/duration, priorities in relation to aerodynamic performance, or stealth, or carrier capability, etc). The possibility of Japan joining the Tempest programme has been mooted for some time, but initially, the public discussions suggested Japanese requirements particularly in terms of in service date were inconsistent with UK/Italy's requirements (which are aligned - they currently operate similar fleets: Typhon + some F35).

        There is likely also some degree of politics involved, of course (Who gets to be project lead, work share, etc)

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge

          for airforces to become smaller, as aircraft become more advanced/more capable/ more expensive

          Question is that the chicken, or the egg?

          Mfg offer new versions of stuff at higher prices.

          Airforces can't buy all of whatever type they want.

          Airforce issues "Multirole" spec.

          IIRC the 3 versions of the F35 have diverged so much from their original plan that they now have 20% commonality.

          so you're still left with nearly all the logistics issues of 3 aircraft and the compromises involved in the original design.

          I've always been most impressed by the B52, U2 and SR71 in this regard. They had a set of payload bays, a mass limit and what services they could supply the payload, and let the payload designers get on with it. The U2 is still flying after 7 decades, as is the B52.

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Potemkine,

      Developing a parallel program to an already existing European one is a mistake. Italy should know better.

      Perhaps Italy have learned from dealing with France before? Typhoon and Tornado were both successful European programs that didn't involve France. So perhaps it's Germany that's got it wrong?

      Also of course it was a joint European program that split, with Sweden, Italy and the UK going one way and Germany, France and Spain the other. Though Sweden seem to have dropped out of both now. I'm presuming both sides had good reasons for this.

      Obviously some of it is politics and industrial policy. Got to win enough work for "national champions". But there are also military requirements. Like the French want one suitable to fly from their carriers. Everyone else in Europe with carriers is transitioning from Harrier to F35.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Or more likely, Italy will withdraw mid way, join the next EU program and shaft the British.

        In return for what the British did to the French over Aussie subs.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mafia, Yakuza or Old Etonians?

    Who gets the biggest cut of the contracts?

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