China spins up giant battery built with US-patented tech

The world's largest vanadium redox flow battery (VRFB) has been connected to the grid in Dalian, China, where it was built using technology patented in the United States. With a current capacity of 100MW/400MWh and plans to double it, the Dalian VRFB will reportedly be able to meet the daily energy needs of 200,000 people, the …

[martinusher]

It wasn't lost -- it was just outsourced

At this time China has the infrastructure and capital to build a large prototype battery while we in the US prefer investments that produce a quicker RoI such as speculation. So what's the problem?

The legislators seem to thin that the issue is China. I think the problem's at home. We used to have no shortage of entrepreneurs willing to take a fling on a new technology. If we can't find anyone with all the money that's washing around the economy then that's a problem. Not China.

[Nonymous Crowd Nerd]

Re: It wasn't lost -- it was just outsourced

Yep. Sadly, we in the west spend our time and money rewarding people for f*£/¿ing about trying to bury the patents to protect encumbent suppliers while the the Chinese get on and build the thing!

[Gene Cash]

Torn

On one hand I'm all "how dare they steal this tech!!" but then on the other, I see tiny little garbage trials like the ones described in the article and think "well good on the Chinese for actually doing something with it"

"PNNL's recipe isn't being manufactured anywhere in the US ... PNNL's lead VRFB scientist Gary Yang claimed to not be able to find a US company to invest in the technology's production"

Apparently my tax dollars went toward this research, and it was basically sat on a shelf. I'm pretty angry about that.

And apparently the Chinese didn't steal this tech, they bought it fair and square. From the US Dept of Energy. And from a picture caption in the linked article: "Joanne Skievaski is the chief financial officer of Forever Energy in Bellevue, Wash. The company has been trying to get a license from the Department of Energy to make the batteries for over a year" - So if that's true, then Yang is wrong.

I guess the best part of this is it's embarrassed the US, even though they won't do anything except "investigate" and huff and puff.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Torn

But how did they find out about this technology to license it ?

Once something is patented it is secret and nobody can ever use it again, ever

[桜沢墨]

Re: Torn

I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that a patent was basically an official document saying "you cannot have this idea" under certain conditions, not that it has to be secret. A secret patent would be even more evil than a regular one. Instead of "you cannot use this idea, even if you came up with it too," it's "I hope you don't come across this unknown idea, because then we can sue you."

[steelpillow]

Re: Torn

The vast majority of patents are meaningless unless they are published, so they always are. The inventor seeking protection must choose between secrecy an patenting. The two are mutually exclusive, contrary to the OP's understanding.

Patent applications are different. They tend not to be published. When the patent is approved and published, its validity is backdated to the day of application. Hence the two different dates which appear on many patents.

There used to be an exception in the UK. Patents on military tech could be classified secret, so only suitably vetted personnel could know of their content. This was certainly invoked during WWI, but I don't know if it still is, here or anywhere else.

[Persona]

Re: Torn

This was certainly invoked during WWI, but I don't know if it still is, here or anywhere else.

A chap I worked with in a research lab during the early 80's had a couple of his radio related patents classified secret. The military implications of the one I recall were blindingly obvious.

[G.Y.]

1931-20xx Re: Torn

A crypto patent, filed 1931(+-) by Friedman, was granted & published 20XX, after the secrecy order ended

Looks like the SIGABA machine

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Torn

Unless you know the right spell to unlock the secret. That's where a magic dragon comes in handy.

[Schultz]

Once something is patented it is secret ...

Upvoted for hidden sarcasm -- our favorite kind.

[Persona]

Re: Torn

But how did they find out about this technology to license it ?

The internet?

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2015/05/f22/VanadiumRedoxBattery-Aug2013.pdf

[imanidiot]

Re: Torn

Patents are the exact opposite actually. If you patent something you disclose what it is you invented and how it works (or at least that is how it should work. Software patents and overly broad "generic" patents on broad concepts have thrown a bit of a spanner in those works).

[Piro]

Re: Torn

Yes, China is actually doing something and producing a large scale battery, which is what we actually need to do. Let's get it tested on a real scale.

Seems like very interesting and promising technology. I'm somewhat surprised that something that could be so useful has barely had any deployments until now.

If we're going to invest in wind and solar, gas power by default is what can back them in unfavourable conditions. If we can go with this battery tech instead, maybe we're on the way to finding a solution.

Still need to invest in lots of fission plants for base generation though, which is sorely lacking worldwide.

[Tom 7]

Re: Torn

Fission will be too costly and too late.

[Persona]

Re: Torn

Fission <> Fusion

[rcxb]

Re: Torn

Still need to invest in lots of fission plants for base generation though, which is sorely lacking worldwide.

Where do you live that base load generation isn't already very well met by rather inexpensive power sources already in place?

It's already in the name: "base load." That generally means the time of lowest demand where all the less efficient and more expensive plants can shut down, and consumption prices are at their lowest for just this reason.

[Piro]

Re: Torn

Denmark. When the wind's not blowing (there are a LOT of wind turbines), most of the power generation is from burning stuff (or importing).

Gas, oil, coal, imported and domestic wood, and waste, with an emphasis over time shifting away from oil and coal. A lot of the heating in people's houses is from district heating, which is often waste, "biomass" (wood and so on) or gas.

They try to say that wood (even when shipped around the world!) that's burnt is renewable, which is eye-roll inducing.

A nuclear power plant or two would clean up the grid immensely.

[Piro]

Re: Torn

I know answering my own post looks silly, but that part about burning imported wood and pretending it's "green" happens in the UK too:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-63089348

[rcxb]

Re: Torn

Denmark is a small enough country (with friendly neighbors) that I can't see that importing baseload power is a bad thing. If they have plenty of hydro, geothermal, etc., then by all means Denmark should put it to good use *when the wind isn't blowing. Though some tidal power generation would likely to be a good fit for Denmark as a backup for wind power.

I guess wood *could* be renewable, as long as all the transportation of it is done with renewables as well (hint: it isn't), and comes from large tree farms that can keep up with demand.

[Tom 7]

Re: Torn

Who owns the 'IP' and why aren't they exploiting it. Patents seem to be largely to prevent others doing things and not preserving IP. Like land banks in the UK the property that is being preserved is the old stuff.

[Filippo]

Re: Torn

Apparently, the Chinese company owns the IP, and is definitely exploiting it.

[Martin Gregorie]

Re: Torn

Apparently, the Chinese company owns the IP, and is definitely exploiting it.

Not true.

The article clearly says that the Chinese have a LICENSE to use the technology and have sold that on to a Dutch company. Neither event implies that either the Chinese or the Dutch company owned the technology, but its probable that the Chinese may have invented manufacturing or operational techniques which they could, of course legally sell to the Dutch.

I'm pleased to see that Vanadium flow batteries are likely to get some serious use at last: they've been around and in fairly small scale use for nearly two decades now. Its about time they got more attention. If nothing else, their capacity is only limited by the size of their supply tanks. They are easily and swiftlly recharged by using a road tanker - and the same vehicle can take the discharged working solution away to be recharged.

What's not to like?

[A.P. Veening]

Re: Torn

Apparently, the Chinese company owns the IP, and is definitely exploiting it.

The Chinese company doesn't own it, it bought a license to use the IP.

[b0llchit]

Small decentralized, please

I would like one of these with 1kW peak discharge, 5kW peak charge solar, optional 1kW charge line power (at night) and 50kWh capacity. Then I can run the house for 1..2 weeks on battery alone.

How large is that and what does it cost? Should fit in the garage.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Small decentralized, please

Sign me up too.

[HobartTas]

Re: Small decentralized, please

Smaller ones for home use do exist https://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/RDF1143-Redflow-ZBM3-A4-WEB.pdf

[bpfh]

Re: Small decentralized, please

230 kg, no battery wear, 8000 dollars US.

Anyone know how this stacks up to a power wall?

[DS999]

Re: Small decentralized, please

Redox flow batteries are designed for large utility scale applications, because most of the scale is via larger tanks for more electrolyte. They wouldn't be price competitive at a small scale like yours.

Lithium or lead acid is still the best price for your needs.

[An_Old_Dog]

Re: Small decentralized, please

So, no chance of using this tech to make AA-sized rechargable batteries which last longer than the two years or less I get from currently- (ha!) available rechargable batteries.

[rcxb]

Re: Small decentralized, please

AA-sized rechargable batteries which last longer than the two years or less I get from currently- (ha!) available rechargable batteries.

Low self discharge NiMH batteries (like the original Eneloop) are rated at 2,000 charge/discharge cycles. Even if you were FULLY charging and discharging the batteries EVERY DAY, you should still get 5.5 YEARS before the capacity drops-off significantly.

It's only Li-Ion batteries, with cycle ratings of 500, that will fail to hold a charge after less than 2 years of heavy use, but Li-Ion AA batteries are rather an expensive, impractical gimmick.

[Spazturtle]

Re: Small decentralized, please

>Low self discharge NiMH batteries (like the original Eneloop) are rated at 2,000 charge/discharge cycles. Even if you were FULLY charging and discharging the batteries EVERY DAY, you should still get 5.5 YEARS before the capacity drops-off significantly.

Free money saving tip here, the IKEA LADDA batteries are re-wrapped eneloops, the LADDA 1900 is the normal eneloop with 1500+ cycles and the LADDA 2450 is the eneloop pro with 500+ cycles.

[Tom 7]

Re: Small decentralized, please

The one you linked to seems to be 5kw peak for 10kW daily output. That would probably do most domestic properties with proper pricing on overgeneration from renewables for most of the year. and its about dishwasher sized.

[rcxb]

Re: Small decentralized, please

They're not anywhere close to maintenance-free like regular batteries. Pumps need maintenance, chemicals need to be periodically added, the electrolyte needs to be tested and rebalanced, etc. Not a good fit for a homeowner installation. Perhaps once they get popular enough that every cell tower has one, then you might be able to get a reasonably priced service that will support them.

Where they're a good fit is as a zero-emission replacement for a GENERATOR. Truck-in electrolyte every day to keep yourself running in an extended power outage. And instead of the source of that truckload needing to be an oil pipeline, it could be the nearest location that still has electricity and a similar model of flom battery.

The problem with both heady scenarios is that there are quite a few chemistries of redox flow batteries competing for supremacy right now. Until just one or two become dominant, there's too much variance to support multiple units, vs single installations large enough to have staff on-site full-time trained on that specific type of flow battery.

[Jan 0]

Re: Small decentralized, please

Come back Navitron!

Where can I buy Chinese eco-home products in the UK nowadays, without them being rebadged and extortionateky priced?

[Will Godfrey]

Good on China

Actually putting the effort in, while the UK and USA put more energy into chasing financial baubles.

[MMM4]

Re: Good on China

Exactly how fed up and screwed up people end up electing dictators.

[Cheshire Cat]

Clearly the US tried to bury this

A good, cheap and efficient battery of this sort is just what is required to make renewables (wind, solar, etc) work on a large scale, as it allows a constant supply even when the source is dependent on weather and annoying planetary rotation.

Having renewables become more attractive is not in the interests of the US Oil and Coal oligarchy, so this new technology was quietly hidden - until the Chinese picked up on it, realised its value, and bought it up.

The Chinese have always had a much longer-term view of things whereas the US tend to be no more than 4y into the future or the next election

[IGotOut]

Re: Clearly the US tried to bury this

Four years? So a real long term goal then? Four months is the norm these days

[PhilipN]

Non-techie question

Is it safe?

Given every battery is a slow explosion ....

[sitta_europea]

Re: Non-techie question

"Is it safe?"

Much safer than the lithium-ion things in your consumer kit.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Non-techie question

Given every battery is a slow explosion ....

Looked at the right way, the metabolism of every cell in your body is a slow explosion.

[Filippo]

Re: Non-techie question

The article says it's safer than lithium. That's pretty good.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the flip side of the Senator's whinging about IP pilferage: Why didn't the US build a similar scale project first? What is the point of all this "government funded research" if it isn't to be put to use by humanity? And I do mean all of humanity, because this whole planet is in it together, whether we get along or not.

[Steve Crook]

How many households?

Fag packet maths: An average UK household uses 40-45KWh per day if you roll gas and electric together as we must for net zero to be a thing. So a 400MWh battery is actually going to be able to supply the total daily needs of roughly 100K peeps at current demand levels.

Which isn't to say this isn't interesting or is unimportant. But how many would we need for the entire UK to buffer the intermittent renewables it has? Particularly during periods where the generated wind output is far below plate value for several days or even weeks?

The current phase cost roughly £239,465,404 (CNY 1.9 billion) which is small compared to the new nuclear stations of course.

But if we needed 50+ of these to be built in the UK? Where are we going to put them?

[IGotOut]

Re: How many households?

"Where are we going to put them?"

Golf courses? Stately Homes?

Sorry, forgot, we need really those.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How many households?

Balmoral?

The QEII Memorial Vanadium Flow Battery has a nice ring to it.

Chuckie would go for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How many households?

*sniff*

Well, it better not be in my back yard!

-- Typical Taxpayer and Property Owner

[Arthur the cat]

Re: How many households?

But if we needed 50+ of these to be built in the UK? Where are we going to put them?

Roughly one per county. Or one per metropolitan area and three for every four counties. Not exactly difficult(*).

(*) YMMV if in Rutland.

[NewModelArmy]

Re: How many households?

I checked my bills.

Electricity is 7kWh per day.

Gas is the same summer months.

Gas winter is 31kWh per day.

Assuming electricity only, then a 10kWh battery is more than sufficient

[john.w]

Re: How many households?

You can't assume electric only because Net Zero policy will soon ban your gas boiler and you need to add that 30KWh figure during the winter.

[Steve Crook]

Re: How many households?

But it's not just you it's industry and transport too.

In 2019-2020 the UK total energy use was (according to HMG) 121mtoe or the equivalent of 1407230gWh or, roughly, 3855gWh per day as an average. McKinsey estimate the UK needing 590tWh electricity by 2050 and that's allowing for limited use of oil and gas and a reduction in energy use of 34% on current levels.

Being kind lets assume we backup 10% of daily demand and that we only need to store a days supply to do all the smoothing we need because interconnectors. That's 160gWh or 400 of those battery parks.

Does anyone think 10% of one day's demand is going to be enough?

[LybsterRoy]

Re: How many households?

How about there's about an acre of unused ground just across the road from me. How much space would one to support a village of 1,000 people need?

And if you stuck solar panels on the top how much charge could you generate?

[Ian Johnston]

Re: How many households?

The general estimate seems to be that to run the whole country on renewables (wind and solar) would require two weeks' storage - that being the maximum period for which we might have little wind and overcast skies,

Last time I checked, total storage in the UK (Dinorwig, Cruachan and a few odds and sods) was about twenty three seconds of average use, though of course they can only supply a fraction of that power for for proportionately longer.

[GruntyMcPugh]

Re: How many households?

"Where are we going to put them?"

Well, I can see the steam from Ratcliffe on Soar coal power station from my house some days, and it's due to close in 2024,.. prime real estate, already hooked up to the grid, any takers?

[hammarbtyp]

Closing the stable...

Its all very well whining now but both John Barasso and Joni Ernst have been responsible in the past in promoting both the petroleum and biofuel lobbies, and fighting against money being spent on renewables (Barasso is from Wyoming which has large oil and nuclear interests)

They cannot have it both ways. This technology is designed to smooth out renewable peaks and troughs. If you are not going to invest in renewables, then no one will invest in this technology. China obviously feel that moving to renewables in the long run will be beneficial, so spent the cash.

I am not sure what the senators felt the DofE should do. Say with one hand the technology is not required, and then turn round and say, but no one else can have it either

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Closing the stable...

They are using reverse psychology to encourage China to ruin it's economy by chasing this sort of renewable frippery.

God damn those senators are cunning, you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel.

[Duncan Macdonald]

Reliability ?

Vanadium flow batteries provide approximately 1.5 volts per cell and each cell requires 2 pumps. For a utility scale battery a MUCH higher voltage is necessary so many cells must be connected in series resulting in a large number of pumps being required. Even if several pumps are driven by a single motor there is still going to be a lot of moving parts in any utility scale battery. This is not good for long term system reliability.

The alternatives - lithium-ion and sodium-sulfur do not require any moving parts (slight exception for lithium-ion where cooling fans may be needed - however cooling can be configured to allow for the failure of some fans).

Vanadium flow batteries also have a restricted operating temperature range (typically 10C-40C according to Wikipedia) which limits the locations where they can be used.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: Reliability ?

--Vanadium flow batteries also have a restricted operating temperature range (typically 10C-40C according to Wikipedia) which limits the locations where they can be used.--

How much of its output would be needed to provide aircon/heating to the room it lives in?

[Ian Johnston]

Re: Reliability ?

Even if several pumps are driven by a single motor there is still going to be a lot of moving parts in any utility scale battery. This is not good for long term system reliability.

The original central heating pump in my house lasted for just over thirty years.

[Will Godfrey]

Re: Reliability ?

The worst thing you can do to a pump is stopping and starting it. I'm guessing this won't happen very often.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reliability ?

each cell requires 2 pumps. For a utility scale battery a MUCH higher voltage is necessary so many cells must be connected in series resulting in a large number of pumps being required.

1) Reliable pumps are a solved technology. If we couldn't make millions of them them work long term we wouldn't have power stations, cars, water, sewage etc etc.

2) a single rotating manifold valve would break the electrolyte connection between all N ports. e.g for an 800V battery (533 cells) with 2" pipes this would be 50cm diameter x 1.2m long with a single motor. Not exactly a show stopping technological feat.

3) this might not even be true: the conductivity might be low enough that bypass current through the relatively long ,thin tubes means there is not an actual problem to solve.

More trivial objections to progress. Don't quit your day job for engineering just yet.

[hayzoos]

Re: Reliability ?

"Vanadium flow batteries also have a restricted operating temperature range (typically 10C-40C according to Wikipedia) which limits the locations where they can be used."

That's why they can't be used in 'Merica. We use F not C for temps.

[R.W.]

Re: Reliability ?

if this was the US tech, it would be good to 70C (158F). It's not

[imanidiot]

unable or unwilling?

"PNNL's lead VRFB scientist Gary Yang claimed to not be able to find a US company to invest in the technology's production"

I somehow get the feeling Mr. Yang didn't try exceedingly hard to find a US company to invest when the Chinese came knocking with a very big bag of money.