back to article California to phase out gas furnaces, water heaters by 2030

First it came for internal combustion engines, and now the California Air Resources Board (CARB) is proposing a phase out of natural gas water heaters and furnaces – another first among US states. The ban would require all new water and space heaters (furnaces – not portable electric units) sold after 2030 to meet zero- …

  1. Gordon 10

    Are they mandating the replacement tech?

    What’s the eco-friendly replacement for a furnace?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      Nuclear

    2. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      Its a heat pump, aka "an air conditioning system run in reverse". They're quite viable for new construction but they work best if you've got a decent heat sink/source such as geothermal energy from under your house.

      Heat pumps just move energy from A to B. To be at their more efficient they need the temperature difference between the two to be as small as possible. The generic air conditioning unit just throws the heat out into the atmosphere through a radiator, that's the bit with the fan that makes all the noise. (The compressor that moves the heat is quite small, it also sits in the outside unit.) One problem we have in hot weather is that the area around the compressor gets very hot, up close to 50C, due to the system being in an enclosed side yard. This not only noticeably reduces the A/C's efficiency but also compromises reliability of the system (....and repairs are expensive). We have to manually intervene (i.e. open a gate to let the air flow) to make things work well.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Flywheel

        Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

        > heat pump ...They're quite viable for new construction

        It'll be interesting to see how this progresses: looking at some of the potential ones on offer in the UK it'd mean quite a sizeable chunk of outside space, and I suspect the noise level, if similar to aircon would be noticeable enough to be annoying on a new estate.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

          Air source heat pumps are pretty much silent, they use a very large, very slow fan, and take up a relatively small amount of space - particularly in new builds which should be designed around the ASHP unit.

          They also remove the need for a boiler inside the house...

          1. AlbertH

            Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

            Air source heat pumps are pretty much silent, they use a very large, very slow fan

            What you omitted to mention is that they have to be really huge (and consequently quite noisy) to generate enough heat to warm the average house even a bit. In reality, the ones available will raise the internal temperature by a couple of degrees - enough to prevent indoor frost, but not enough to replace a proper central heating boiler.

            They also necessitate the replacement of all the radiators in a house (for much bigger ones) and are - essentially - useless. They are NOT a viable domestic heating solution.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

              OK, AlbertH, I'll feed your trolling ... Either you have absolutely no idea about what you are babbling about, or you're purposely trying to spread FUD. Which is it?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

              They also necessitate the replacement of all the radiators in a house (for much bigger ones)

              Really? And why do you think E-spec houses have floor heating?

              Heatpumps have been viable for quite some time, even from a straigh air interface perspective. If you have usable geothermal resources to add it's even better. You can still augment it with a heater (especially without geothermals), but even then your energy use is much better.

        2. WageSlave5678

          Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

          There's a lot of misinformation about this. I looked into it for my place in the UK:

          Air source is cheaper to install, but relies on a decent source of heat in the outside to work effectively (i.e. energy in to drive the reverse 'fridge needs to be less than the heat pumped into the house). In warmer climes it's OK, since the outside air is relatively warm & more humid. As it gets colder you have to drive the pump harder (more energy in) to gain an effective temperature difference, and as it drops below zero you get icing on the unit and even less efficiency, and ultimately a barely-warm house and no hot water, or lukewarm water at best and no household heating. It's very limited in applicability.

          Ground source is much better, since the ground is a nice, even temperature year-round, so you can drive decent efficiency whatever the outside weather. But it costs 3x as much to install, and you need plenty of land, or deep bore holes (even more costly) to lay sufficient heat exchange pipes.

          Oh, and your house has to be completely draft-proof and well-insulated otherwise there's really no point.

          so nice idea, but it really depends on your house whether it can work at all.

          Enforcing it for new builds may work, provided the insulation and build quality is up to scratch, but for folks in existing poorly-insulated homes all it would do is make them cold and annoyed.

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

            "Air source is cheaper to install, but relies on a decent source of heat in the outside to work effectively (i.e. energy in to drive the reverse 'fridge needs to be less than the heat pumped into the house). In warmer climes it's OK, since the outside air is relatively warm & more humid. As it gets colder you have to drive the pump harder (more energy in) to gain an effective temperature difference, and as it drops below zero you get icing on the unit and even less efficiency, and ultimately a barely-warm house and no hot water, or lukewarm water at best and no household heating. It's very limited in applicability"

            Thank goodness you worked that out before they installed them all over scandanavia!

            What matters is the choice of heat pump, the refrigerant and design make a huge difference to the designed operating temperature.

            As for folks in poorly insulated homes - the answer there is to bloody insulate them. It doesn't matter what heating system you use if you lose all the heat in five minutes.

    3. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      Recycled mainframe. All that ECL will keep you nice and toasty.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

        Recycled?

        Shirley you mean "still functional and in use"?

        Transistors generate heat as they are used, true, but they are not all in constant use ... On the other hand, core needs to be kept at a constant temperature. It's a little known fact that most of the power consumed by Core Memory is used to heat it up, in order to keep it within the optimal working temperature.

        Mine are all temporarily mothballed ... thankfully the ol' GSHP works thru' Sonoma's Winter.

    4. andrewj

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      Macbook Pro when Microsoft Teams is running.

    5. jake Silver badge

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      "What’s the eco-friendly replacement for a furnace?"

      Furs are self-sustaining ... and squirrels, ground squirrels, bunnies and deer are quite overpopulated around here. So are coyotes. As are bears.

      We won't go into feral and shelter cats and dogs ... my fellow Californians would probably lynch me.

      1. Grinning Bandicoot

        Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

        You forgot to add pigeon. feathers for the designer coat to be worn when pacing Montgomery St.

    6. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
      Flame

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      Solar, wind, nuclear. California has lots of space for solar and wind, and we should be building nuclear plants far from fault lines, e.g. in nearby Nevada.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

        Common misconception. Japan is full of fault lines, and reactors.

        And no, Fukushima was not damaged directly by the earthquake, nor the tsunami. What was damaged was some important peripheral kit (backup power) that had been wrongly placed in harms's way.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. Tom 7

            Re: Nukin' it J-Style

            The reason why the failed is because they were disconnected from the grid and the secondary cooling mechanism failed so and so a station run at full power event when then immediately turned off overheated. Something you could achieve at any nuke with a mortar/bazooka and a petrol powered angle grinder.

            1. TheMeerkat

              Re: Nukin' it J-Style

              The main problem with Fukushima was the old design that could not shutdown safely when power fails.

              1. bombastic bob Silver badge
                Boffin

                Re: Nukin' it J-Style

                oh it shut down just fine. the emergency cooling did not run, though, because the tsunami flooded the diesel generators. If it had NOT been for the flooded diesel generators, no leakage would have ocurred, and no meltdowns either.

                decay heat is as high as 8% of operating power immediately after shutdown (which exponentially drops over several days to something more manageable), and nuclear waste (stored in the buildings) constantly emits heat. The inability to cool them resulted in melted containment and radiation leakage.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Nukin' it J-Style

                  Interestingly, this came up during a course I've just been on - and it's a bit more nuanced than the common story.

                  The metallurgy for a reactor pressure vessel is "interesting" (i.e. complicated). There's a temperature where the sort of steel used transitions and loses it's ductility - at which point, if the pressure is still kept up then there's a significant risk of it cracking which would be "a bad thing to happen". So during start-up and shut-down, there's a range of temperature-pressure curves the operators have to stay within - one of which is related to this lower temperature limit to turning brittle.

                  Apparently, the design there did incorporate passive cooling, but the operators were concerned that the pressure vessel could be over-cooled - so they closed the valve (DC operated, from batteries) to control the rate of cooling. Unfortunately, they then failed to be able to open the valves again ... and the rest is as we know it.

                  The Westinghouse AP1000 design also incorporates what I assume is a similar passive cooling system. There's a big tank of water sat above the reactor, which if the brown stuff starts flying off the air circulator will start to release as a spay over the outside of the pressure vessel. This will the coolant vapour to condense on the inside, which will then run down and keep the core covered - just come back in a couple of day and top the tank up. After learning what I learned last week (or at least, the bits I still remember !), I wonder if that has the same potential problem ? I would imagine much cleverer people than myself have considered that.

                  The decay heat is typically around 7.5% of the previous operating power, decaying significantly within the first few seconds and minutes, and down to about 0.7% after a day. Doesn't sound a lot, but if you've been running at a GW (1000 MW), 0.7% of that is still 7MW.

          2. andrewj

            Re: Nukin' it J-Style

            Try doing some of the research to answer these things instead of lazily and hysterically throwing out innuendo and supposition?

          3. SImon Hobson Bronze badge

            Re: Nukin' it J-Style

            Structures built of cement, stone, or masonry typically fare extremely-poorly during earthquakes

            Let me correct that for you, "Structures not designed to cope with earthquakes typically fare extremely-poorly during earthquakes". it's actually fairly easy to design and build a structure that will cope with an earthquake - it's actually done all the time but you don't tend to hear about them as "nothing happened" isn't generally newsworthy.

            Dealing with it might involve, for example, laying a bed of gravel, and then building your strong structure on top of it. In a seismic event, the gravel can fluidise, the structure will float about a bit, and apart from possibly ending up "not as level as it was built" it will still be standing and fully intact. I recall, from watching a documentary about it, that a bridge somewhere in Europe had it's piers supported in just that way because it's in a seismic zone.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

          It failed from human error at the planning, implementation, and management level. Above all there was a management mantra that nuclear must be the cheapest option, and corners cut to make that be true. Anything else was "overkill".

          It is good to see that Japan has learned from this mistake and is designing a next generation of reactors to be much safer - and are willing to pay for long term quality - as described in today's reg article: "Japan taps industry to build safer, more secure nuclear energy future".

      2. Jakester

        Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

        Sorry, Nevada has many major fault lines as well.

      3. Tom 7

        Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

        If you're going for power in Nevada then wind and solar can be built that will probably generate more electricity than a nuke will for the same price before the nuke is even built and without the £130/MWh costFigures for decommissioning and waste storage for current nukes in the UK look like they would provide 50GW of offshore wind so 200GW of onshore.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Meh

          Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

          Have you run the numbers and a cost analysis to prove your claims? "Because I *FEEL*" is not good enough to make long term plans, you know...

    7. Tom 7

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      They've built a thermal store in Norway which can keep sand at 300C and only loses a degree or so in six months. Its for use in heating and hot water for a few houses. Of course something like this gets 'cheaper' the bigger it is and it looks as if the cost is pretty low already. Using the right materials far higher temperatures can be stored. Something with a phase change (solid<->liquid) at a few hundred C might even work on a domestic scale. Heat Plumbing anyone?

    8. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      electric heat in Cali-Forn-You is MORE EXPENSIVE, regardless.

      I own a GAS CLOTHES DRYER, which I purchased DECADES AGO because they are WAY cheaper to operate. Same basic idea as gas heat. I also prefer a gas stove (but have not had one of these in a long time) because they are faster responding and easier to control the level of heat, among other things.

      The ONLY effect this is going to have is to drive anyone who is NOT a "rich snob" out of the state!

      (I will be quite old by then - Texas is looking a LOT better!)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

        In CA, and I retired the dryer and hang the clothes to dry. When they must be inside, use a fan. CA has the weather for it.

    9. Robert Helpmann??
      Coat

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      A wood stove? Whichever you use, make sure to eat the edible bits before burning the rest.

      Mine has a slightly foxed copy of Euell Gibbons' Handbook of Edible Wild Plants in the pocket.

    10. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Are they mandating the replacement tech?

      "What’s the eco-friendly replacement for a furnace?"

      Freezing to death, probably.

  2. martinusher Silver badge

    Wishful thinking

    Our 1971 home is fairly typical of a suburban California home. Built on the cheap it has a relatively modest electrical supply, a 100 Amp panel. The supply infrastructure isn't designed for anything more -- back when a relatively small tract of houses was built our supply became unstable with the substation constantly blowing up. (Literally...) Over the years we've reduced our power consumption substantially and installed solar panels which help with the spiraling cost of power (peak rate is close to 50c a KW/h now).

    We use minimal amounts of natural gas for water heating and home heating in the winter. These are significant energy users that will strain our house's power supply. We might be able to upgrade the panel and the incoming main but the entire tract would need to be rewired. Since power costs have been allowed to get out of control -- we we next in line after the UK's 'privatization' with the whole ISO, energy market, spot prices and what-have-you, somewhat tamed by the state but still subject to those 'market forces' that you in the UK know and love so much -- I don't want to install anything that might add to power consumption except maybe an electric vehicle since that can be used to not only substitute for even more expensive gasoline (petrol -- we running $6 a gallon, sometimes lower, sometimes higher) but as a float for the house as a whole. so I guess the AQMD may find a lot of people in "cold, dead, fingers" mode -- we are not going to go down that route and any attempt to force the issue is likely to have devastating political consequences.

    (The gas fire pictured in this article is unknown in the US. We actually have one, a Baxi "Bermuda" that my wife hand carried from the UK back in the days before everything was seen as a potential bomb. Due to historical reasons all the fittings and specifications for pressure, venting and the like are actually the same between the US and the UK. It is by far the most efficient heat source anyone knows of -- the fireplace is supposed to be burning artificial logs but that's an amazing way to burn a lot of gas to get not very much heat, but this one can heat an open plan house on one bar.)

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Wishful thinking

      Oh the irony

      Our rural backwater doesn't have a gas pipeline so all our furnaces are electric

      This means everyone's winter electricity use pushes us into the punitive eco-terrorist tariff once you go over a certain residential usage. Double irony cos all our power is hydro.

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: Wishful thinking

        If you replaced that electric furnace with a heat pump you'd save a lot of energy. There are new ones that operate well below 0F/-20C (and even at the lowest temperatures it supports while it is less efficient it is still more efficient than the resistance heating you have now)

        I've got an old gas furnace and AC in my house I've been thinking about replacing and I've been looking at heat pumps. We have lows below zero (F) maybe a half dozen nights in an average winter where I live. I figure if we get a real cold snap with a few days in a low in the minus teens and high a few degrees below zero and my heat pump couldn't quite keep up I'd be fine with that. Maybe my house is only 60F for a few days, I'd be fine with that versus paying more for one of the models able to handle down to -40C...I don't live in northern Minnesota!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Wishful thinking

          Maybe my house is only 60F for a few days, I'd be fine with that versus paying more for one of the models able to handle down to -40C...I don't live in northern Minnesota!

          This isn't progress, it's regression. Meanwhile, China continues to build 100 new coal-fired power stations per year.

          https://time.com/6090732/china-coal-power-plants-emissions/

          At some point you guys will face up to the fact that this is more about virtue-signalling than climate change. The question is, will it be too late?

          Xi Jinping says nǐ hǎo!

          1. DS999 Silver badge

            Re: Wishful thinking

            You're criticizing me because I think I might be willing to save money buying a cheaper heat pump in exchange for being at 60F every few years when it is teens below zero outside?

            Sorry I didn't know it hurt your sense of national superiority to China to not have every American keep their thermostat at 75F to prove their manliness to you!

            1. bombastic bob Silver badge
              Megaphone

              Re: Wishful thinking

              If my bedroom gets to cold at night *I* *AM* *SICK* *ALL* *OF* *THE* *TIME*

              My thermostat stays where it is, with supplementary portable heaters as needed. Since I am limited to 15A on that circuit, they can't be very powerful, either. It gets amazingly cold sometimes, even in Southern Cali-Forn-You, along the coast.

              1. DS999 Silver badge

                Re: Wishful thinking

                If you can't handle sleeping in 60F, I take it you've never gone camping except in mid summer.

              2. CrackedNoggin Bronze badge

                Re: Wishful thinking

                An electric blanket using 50-100W?

                1. jake Silver badge

                  Re: Wishful thinking

                  If I had anything resembling an electric blanket, I'd never get the cats, Whippets and Greyhounds off of it. There certainly wouldn't be any room for me+SWMBO.

              3. jake Silver badge

                Re: Wishful thinking

                "It gets amazingly cold sometimes, even in Southern Cali-Forn-You, along the coast."

                In the deserts, yes ... but along the coast? Not so much. The Pacific moderates the temperature quite nicely. I almost always sleep with the windows open if I'm much South of Point Sur.

                That said, it's been 70F in the living space here for around 20 years, since I installed the GSHP ... Bedroom drops to 55F at night (compromise between The Wife and I).

                Another compromise ... we have toe-kick heaters in the bathrooms, under the kitchen sinks, and in the mud and laundry rooms. SWMBO insisted. They run off hot water from the GSHP. We also have functional wood stoves, which will provide heat (including hot water) and cooking in an extreme emergency ... mostly they are occasionally used for ambiance.

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Wishful thinking

          >If you replaced that electric furnace with a heat pump you'd save a lot of energy.

          I can't because the government are handing out grants to fit them.

          This requires a survey by an official certified heat pump installation engineer.

          The official certified heat pump installation engineers are all so busy charging $x00 for a 30minute survey that none of them want to actually install any heat pumps.

          Or I can fit one of the individual diy wall mount heat/AC ones in every room and skip the grant.

        3. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Wishful thinking

          "If you replaced that electric furnace with a heat pump you'd save a lot of energy. "

          Provided there is something that will be a drop in replacement and won't need a load of adapting to make it sit in the same closet and push air through the same ducts. It also discounts the energy embodied in the heating unit being replaced going off to land fill if it still has life in it.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Wishful thinking

            "Provided there is something that will be a drop in replacement and won't need a load of adapting to make it sit in the same closet and push air through the same ducts."

            In my experience, using existing ductwork is a no-brainer ... IF it was properly installed and sized in the first place. Just make sure it's solid, and well sealed. You'll also want to insulate it anywhere you can get at it. Don't use so-called "duct tape", or you'll regret it! It's not designed for this kind of work.

            Note that there is a method of properly sealing the existing ducting from the inside. Look up "Aeroseal". A hair on the spendy side, but the results are worth it. Recommended.

        4. Tom 7

          Re: Wishful thinking

          I wonder how much it would cost to dig a big hole on your property, line it with insulating material and then backfill it along with your heat pump heat exchanger and then top it off with insulation and maybe a greenhouse. In summer you heat up the backfill while air conditioning your house/greenhouse and warm it in winter cooling the backfill ready for summer again.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Wishful thinking

            I'm having the heat pump done. It's not just the heat pump work, the house is going to have a thermal upgrade of all the insulation and new window glazing to make the heat pump efficient. And solar panels are going on the roof.

            This all adds up to a tidy 5 figure sum that starts with a 2.

          2. jake Silver badge

            Re: Wishful thinking

            My GSHP has been pumping out either cool or warm air non-stop for about 20 years now. The whole kludge runs on a properly sized 12V lead-acid battery that is kept charged by a small PV panel (or the little Honda genset when it's overcast for a few days in a row. Jumper cables from a car or truck in emergency).

            The heat exchangers are in the basement and attic (made ducting easier splitting 'em up), the hole in the ground only contains the coils and is only insulated by backfill.

            The big greenhouse has a couple hundred feet of 6 inch "drain tile" buried under it, in a couple lifts about three feet apart. Small 12V fans in four places move air through the pipe, with the resulting air to or from the four corners of the floor and four equally spaced high points in the ceiling (flow is reversed in the winter). A couple weeks ago, when it was 116F (47C) here for a few days, this arrangement (along with a bunch of manually deployed shade-cloth) kept the greenhouse at just under 80F (26C). During the winter, it sits at about 75F (24C) during the day, dropping to about 60F (15C) at night. This can be varied, it is all controlled with a custom setup powered by an ATmega328[0]. I wrote the control logic. Again, the 12V is provided by a small PV panel & properly sized battery.

            Maintenance consists of cleaning/replacing filters a couple times per year, standard battery maintenance, very occasionally replacing b0rken sensors or rodent-nibbled wire, and cleaning out the ducts about once every ten years whether they need it or not. These things have very little to go wrong.

            Cost varies wildly, but if you have the tools/capability you can save a good deal of the cost by digging/filling your own holes, deploying your own coils and sensors and wiring as necessary. I did all the work myself, and found deals on the plumbing, so my costs were not realistic for most people. Consult a local firm which has been in the business for over a decade ... most will happily give you a free estimate. Some will allow you to provide sweat-equity.

            [0] I thought about using a single RasPi to control the logic of both house and greenhouse, but they are over-kill for this kind of thing, and a single point of failure. So I went with a pair of redundant ATmega328s for each project. A simple watchdog circuit switches to the always hot second unit in case of failure of the primary, and notifies me something is wrong. The same circuit will notify me if the backup unit fails. Neither has happened yet. Yes, if you lift the lid they are both still ugly breadboards ... I'm only human.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Wishful thinking

        "Our rural backwater doesn't have a gas pipeline so all our furnaces are electric"

        When I was young my dad's house had electric heat and about the only time it was used was when it was a choice between using it and death. The pot belly stove was the main heat source in the winter and good siting and a few open windows in the summer was the cooling. Amazing what can be done with some space and a dozen trees.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Wishful thinking

          >The pot belly stove was the main heat source in the winter

          Domestic wood stoves are banned here - they are our major source of air pollution

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Wishful thinking

            "Domestic wood stoves are banned here - they are our major source of air pollution"

            Claim which is patentable bullshit basically anywhere. Burning wood is literally CO2 neutral.

            1. david 12 Silver badge

              Re: Wishful thinking

              "Burning wood is literally CO2 neutral."

              But not NOx neutral or Particulate neutral. Coal burning in London wasn't phased out to stop deaths "from CO2".

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Wishful thinking

      Either it can be EV's OR electric furnaces but not both at the same time. As pointed out, homes that were built with gas as part of the energy input often don't have a very large incoming power line. Also keep in mind that 100A at US voltage is half the power of the same current in the UK. Not only will homes need to be refitted with a new panel and circuit breakers, and they aren't often as flexible as in other places being built-in rather than bolted to a panel, the power lines need to be replaced all the way back to the main sub-stations. All of the transformers on the poles will need to be upgraded. It's a huge undertaking and passing laws and fining people won't help. The US does produce gas domestically. It's not like they have to worry about a foreign leader closing the valve as has happened elsewhere.

      I don't see any problem with new construction having the option for both. It's more expensive to install and provision new homes with a 200A or bigger main panel, but it's not discounting that gas is a good choice in many places. California has a mandate that new homes come with solar panels, but the requirement is pitiful and they didn't go as far as requiring that homes are sited on their lots and the roofs laid-out to be suitable for solar. Many new homes have a few panels that get a little bit of sun for half of the day making the installation 'ing worthless. I count myself lucky that the house I wound up buying is very good for adding PV panels and I'll put them on after I have saved the money and had the roof replaced first.

      1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge
        Boffin

        Not "Half the Power"

        Um, down in the states, they do have 240 VAC at however many amps. It's 240 VAC between black and red, and 120 VAC between red and white (neutral), and 120 VAC between black and white (neutral). High-power electric things there are run on 240 VAC.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Not "Half the Power"

          that's kinda true.

          Often the 220/240 outlet is split phase, depending. I am not sure if my 220 outlets are or not.

          am pretty sure the electric stove is on a 220 circuit, and there's a 220 outlet for an electric clothes dryer. But I use gas for that. Also the water heater and central heating (gas). I'd rather keep it like that.

          1. jake Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Not "Half the Power"

            "I am not sure if my 220 outlets are or not."

            If you are in California, they are. Your new Tesla will love slurping all that coal-provided power from the unused 240V50A dryer circuit in your garage. (Yes, I know, you wouldn't be seen dead in a Tesla. Have a beer.)

            I'd keep as many gas appliances as possible if you're not going off-grid solar. It's much cheaper to run. Even propane is less expensive than electricity for heating. (Hint: Next time you get a washer/dryer combo, go with SpeedQueen. Made in America, and all analog .... no computers to go wrong. Also, parts are readily available so you can fix 'em yourself. Same company that makes laundromat equipment ... and their household stuff is just as bullet-proof. Will last forever if properly maintained, even after California bans the sale of new gas dryers.)

            Don't forget to replace the sacrificial anode in your hot water tank every year or two. Keeps the rust monsters at bay. Works for electric, gas and solar versions.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Not "Half the Power"

              "If you are in California, they are. Your new Tesla will love slurping all that coal-provided power from the unused 240V50A dryer circuit in your garage. (Yes, I know, you wouldn't be seen dead in a Tesla. Have a beer.)"

              Yo jake, there is only one small coal power plant in California. If you aren't in Trona, CA, coal isn't an issue.

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: Not "Half the Power"

                California buys electricity from out of state utilities that burn coal. Lots of it, in fact.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Wishful thinking

        "Also keep in mind that 100A at US voltage is half the power of the same current in the UK."

        Not if you have service at 220/240V ... most US houses have two legs, not one. If your main breaker is marked 100A, it's the same as 100A in the UK, near enough.

        "It's more expensive to install and provision new homes with a 200A or bigger main panel"

        Provisioning a new house for 200A costs marginally more than for 100A ... UNLESS you actually need to run wire (plus breakers, etc) to use the extra capacity immediately. The cost of the panel is only a couple hundred bucks more, and the power company's sid will likely remain unchanged. I'd suggest anyone building a new house get at least a 200A service, if not 400A.

        Having upgraded the family homestead from the original 1940s 60A service, I wouldn't purchase a home without 200A service, at least. PG&E wanted an arm and a leg to make the change, and so my new gear sat for several years ... until I convinced a friendly linesman to mark it off as a "like to like" wire swapover from the old, rusty fuse-block main panel to a new, modern 200A panel. Strangely, the original 1940s copper from PG&E was rated to carry the 200A. Moral: Ask questions in low places early and often. There are almost always workarounds. (Yes, my insurance company is happy with the result.)

        California's rules and regs on solar power are total, utter and completely senseless greenwashing. On the bright side, if you dot the is and cross the ts , you can usually get things done in spite of Sacramento having their heads planted firmly up their asses.

    3. Flywheel
      FAIL

      Re: Wishful thinking

      > any attempt to force the issue is likely to have devastating political consequences

      Ah... like the UK, this sentence tells us exactly why we (as a planet) will never achieve Net Zero. Never mind that Mother Nature is throwing her fiery and watery toys out of the pram and some of us are running out of water (while others drown in it); no politician has the guts to say what really needs to be done to save us, and actually do it!

  3. Hurn

    Scrubbers for fireplaces?

    Does this mean new construction homes, with fireplaces, will need scrubbers in their chimneys?

    Or, maybe no fireplaces at all?

    How about barbecues / smokers / outdoor firepits / tiki torches?

    Churches might need a religious exemption to continue using candles and incense.

    1. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

      Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

      Actually at the moment there are widespread bans on barebecues in California already. Not statewide, it's a temporary measure due to fire risk in those areas though (the areas that already have forest fires don't need even more started due to hot coals.)

      Oh, and the very bill this article is writing about is banning gas grills too! Yeah.

      1. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

        The fire risk is minimal in tract housing -- the BBQs that they close down are in parks where there's a real risk of the fire getting loose. The backyard grill is a very useful device, especially in really hot weather since you can cook dinner outdoors and so not throw unwanted heat into the house.

        Sacramento is riding for a fall here. The mechanics of virtue signalling relies on being able to convince people that only an entitled minority has the privilege of such and such so its OK to ban whatever. Since our housing -- at least in the major urban areas -- is so expensive its easy to assume that everyone who lives in a house is a rich pig etc etc etc. This is a good way to alienate the electorate....and I really don't want to see "the other lot" in power since they tend to bring us good stuff like budget deficits, utility deregulation and generally make life difficult for everyone.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

          "Since our housing -- at least in the major urban areas -- is so expensive its easy to assume that everyone who lives in a house is a rich pig etc etc etc."

          That will turn around when it's somebody's dear ol' gran is being told she must spend her life savings plus 10% to upgrade the home she's lived and raised her family in since the 1960's.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

        the very bill this article is writing about is banning gas grills too!

        You KNOW that there will be people driving their SUVs and pickup trucks to Nevada and Arizona to get a propane grill and plenty of fuel for it, right? Or, sending someone ELSE to do it.

        Those with money do NOT have to obey these "laws".. "THEY" will ALWAYS have "nice things" - UNLIKE the rest of us!!!

        2 words - the name of a restaurant: "French Laundry" - a perfect example of this 2-tiered snobbery. During somewhat recent lockdowns, Gavin Newsome took his family to a restaurant when NOBODY ELSE COULD GO TO ONE, and they DID NOT WEAR MASKS (the ones they demanded US to wear). SImilarly Nancy Pelosi got a hair cut in San Francisco and was photographed doing so without a mask, when ALL of the hair salons were in lockdown [except for servicing HER]. THIS is who these people ARE. Without arguing the moraiity of shutdowns and lockdowns and masks, it is OBVIOUS that for THEM, it is "ONE LAW FOR ME and ANOTHER for THEE..." [they must view us as plebes, mooks, and serfs]

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

          "You KNOW that there will be people driving their SUVs and pickup trucks to Nevada and Arizona to get a propane grill and plenty of fuel for it, right? Or, sending someone ELSE to do it."

          There would be a really big problem if the sale of propane was eliminated. Many homes, especially mobile homes, use propane for heating and cooking. There isn't an easy or cost effective way to convert them to pure electric. A whole trailer park would need to be ripped up to be able to upgrade the electrical distribution and the homes themselves would need major work. Propane is also the fuel of choice for RV's and food trucks.

          People might do the maintenance to keep their BBQ's working rather than just using them until they rot with no cleaning or repairs ever. Where I am, I can find a used BBQ any day of the week either cheap of free right now. When I take stuff to the waste depot, there are often plenty of unloved BBQ's waiting to be recycled. I alway look to see if there is one like mine so I can nick any parts I need. Unfortunately, it's not allowed to take anything away once it's at the waste station/dump. That's a big issue I'd like to see changed.

          I have a good customer that helps older people move and conducts auctions and sales of their stuff they don't want or need anymore. He winds up with loads of eWaste that he has to get rid of and gives me a first look to see if there is anything I can use. I just cleaned up a good enough PC that turned out to be from the actor that played Ferris Bueller's dad in the movie. Funny what you come across. Maybe it's a good thing it was me that got it. I erased all of the drives and kept any data that may have been rather personal from getting out. The only thing that was really wrong was the video card packed it in. I'm guessing that's why it was binned. The computer works great as my workbench machine and I donated my old one to the local school freshly blessed with clean drive, os installation and OpenOffice so it's ready for a student whose family might not be able to afford one. Always be paying it forward.

          1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

            Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

            You mean you think California politiicans will have a problem forcing poor people who live in mobile homes to rip them apart and make them 100 percent electric? Of course not. In fact, watch for mobile home parks to be condemned right about the time a politician's family member is ready to buy some prime development land.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

              You really have a fertile imagination, don't you?

    2. Irony Deficient

      Or, maybe no fireplaces at all?

      Since 2010, Oregon has required that uncertified * woodstoves and fireplace inserts in a home be removed, destroyed, and disposed of when a home is sold.

      * — i.e. not certified by either the state DEQ or the federal EPA

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Or, maybe no fireplaces at all?

        Patentable stupidity paid by power companies. No reason whatsoever but *power monopoly*.

        Good luck to anyone in said houses when (and not if) electricity is cut: It's going to be cold winter.

        Water pipes burst when they freeze and then you've a house which isn't in livable condition anymore. Absolutely, mindbogglingly stupid.

        Here in North (even more North than Oregon) alternate heating method *is mandatory*. Typically electricity and stove and/or fireplace.

        ... and then some moronic idiot goes and bans fireplaces. A lot of bribes obviously justify freezing people to death. *Just like in Texas*.

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

      If I must have a scrubber on my fireplace

      THEN CIGARETTE SMOKERS NEED SCRUBBERS TOO!!!

      (there. I said it)

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Scrubbers for fireplaces?

      "Churches might need a religious exemption to continue using candles and incense."

      I highly doubt you'll find many prosecutors that would take those cases to court. It would be a huge bomb just waiting to go off in their face.

  4. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Ridiculous

    Ridiculous. Electric heating is much less efficient than gas and much higher per-therm costs; electric heaters take longer to come up to temperature and don't reach as high a temperature either. In cold climates (which southern california is not, but the northern-most part of california is), I'm not sure an electric furnace would keep up with the demands at all. (In Iowa, the only electric heat setups I've ever seen -- they're rare because the heating costs that way are insane in this cold a climate -- use a "radiator" in each room, just electric instead of steam, because central heating would not make enough BTUs to heat the whole house. Iowa has some of the lowest per-kwh costs in the country, it's like half what they pay in California.) The power draw for electric heat is quite high, they are seriously expecting people to get new (higher amp capacity) electrical service run to their house, bigger breaker panel/fuse box put in, and new wiring (at least to the heat) to accomodate the power draw of this electric heater?

    That said, the sensible thing would be to pursue heat pumps. The newer ones do apparently provide adequate heat down to 10-20 fahrhenheit, like -10 celsius or so, provide both cooling and heating, are actually more efficient than a gas system, the "mini-splits" they use mean you can heat or cool the whole place evenly or save money by heating or cooling rooms you aren't using far less than the rest. Apparently (due to the mini-splits) they cool or heat quickly enough so you can keep a room relatively unheated/cooled and just crank it up when you DO get in the room. The one I saw even had some fancy system to detect when someone walked in and directly the heat/cooling in their direction. The systems allow installing a small furnace to pick up the slack so you're not frozen out of your home when it's like -40 out (-40 is the same in celsius and fahrenheit). I think it'd be FAR better for them to quit using the stick (gas furnaces are banned, if your furnace blows out and you don't have like $10,000+ banked up you're screwed) and start using the carrot (play up the advantages of newer systems, people who can afford too will do the upgrades.) (As martinusher points out above, this still is shifting huge BTUs of heating from gas to electric, without the electric infrastructure to support it.)

    Also, California keeps pusihing for electric vehicles, and now electric heating; but, they ALSO have decided to not allow any new power generation in the state! OK, no gas power plants or nuclear reactors, that's consistent with their green policies; but, they've also turned down geothermal (they want to keep hot springs and tar pits in their natural state), wind (NIMBYs don't want to have to look at wind mills... even turning down an off-shore facility where they were going to be just barely visible above the horizon), and tide and wave power (I have no idea what the excuse was for this one.) Neighboring states have clearly said they don't mind having power generation in their states, but they (and the utility copmanies) are NOT going to foot the bill for running huge numbers of high-capacity power lines into California so they can go all-electric without producing any electricity.

    Edit: 50c a kwh peak? Fuuuu..... I knew Iowa had some of the lowest rates in the country -- like 8-10c a kwh depending on what plan you're on and etc... but I didn't know it'd gotten THAT high out there. Even with heat pumps, they draw electricity rather than gas so I don't know if they are still enough more efficient to save when you're paying 50c a kwh!

    1. DS999 Silver badge

      Re: Ridiculous

      I'm pretty sure they are requiring heat pumps, and not electric resistance heat. I agree it would be stupid if they banned gas heat and allowed electric resistance heat.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ridiculous

        Yeah, but they aren't banning inefficient electric heating, and are banning efficient gas devices, not just inefficient ones. This is PG&E and Socal Edison creating a residential power monopoly. If you can't afford your own solar build, be prepared to pay through the nose for their surge price power though an unreliable, unmaintained, and overpriced grid.

    2. david 12 Silver badge

      Re: Ridiculous

      The US department of Energy is funding heat pump research for cold-weather climates, and there are two companies with products they hope might be suitable for cool-weather climates, but basically the engineering isn't there yet. (You need double - pump technology or dangerous/unsafe refrigerant).

      You can use heat-pump warming in the warm parts of California, you might be able to use it, at a cost, in cold parts of California, there is nothing available for very cold parts of the USA.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Ridiculous

        It's those laws of physics, getting in the way again...

        And now another shoutout for Arthur C. Clarke's "Superiority"

        NOTE: there is potential with things like peltier devices; however I do not know how large a peltiere-based heat pump would have to be to provide adequate energy transfer. A much better way would be to sink pipes 50 or so feet into the earth, where the temperature tends to be above freezing in most places, and use that as a heat sink/source for a heat pump. The question is whether or not the extra expense and maint costs are worth the benefit...

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Ridiculous

      "but, they've also turned down geothermal "

      There are ventures at the Salton Sea to extract Lithium and use geothermal power for the processes. It's nice to see that they are thinking about In-Situ-Resource-Utilization and going from Lithium bearing ores/solutions/etc to Lithium metal or other in-demand form without having to spend all sorts of money moving it all long distance each time another process needs to be applied.

      Are they cranking down the geo-thermal plants at the Salton Sea? How about the ones in Geyser, CA and there is a geo-thermal installation on the China Lake Naval Weapons Station. I think there may be some more and certainly a few more places that would be good candidates if companies were allowed to place infrastructure at them. I doubt that much impact will be made cooling down the edge of the Ring of Fire.

      Tidal and wave power extraction hasn't been cracked yet. It can be done but the bits don't survive in the ocean long enough for a ROI. They are also hard to see so a hazard to boats and can be a source of people going to prison for life if there is any interaction with designated endangered species.

      1. Tom 7

        Re: Ridiculous

        Geothermal isnt suitable everywhere. Or it wasn't- there's some buzz around about drills where something like microwave is used to locally heat the target rock and this makes it soooo much cheaper to drill hard rocks. Have to wait and see if its true but there are problems with geo - The Eden Project was playing with it and stopped because of earthquakes I believe.

    4. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

      All-Electric Homes

      During the 1950s or 1960s, there was an electric-company sponsored campaign in our general area to build new residential buildings with "all-electric" major appliances: air-heaters, water-heaters, stoves, clothes-dryers, and ovens. Such homes got a little bronze medallion attached near the front door to brag about this, but it was merely an attempt (fairly-successful!) to increase electricity consumption.

      1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

        Re: All-Electric Homes

        I remember as a child in the early '70s moving to an all-electric house in the UK. My Dad spent the first few months ripping everything out and having a gas main put in for gas heating and cooking.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: All-Electric Homes

          That was a good idea. Just in time for a couple of rounds of coal miners strikes and rolling power cuts. A neighbour of ours had just gone all electric a few months before the first one.

          Although, thinking back, the early 70's was probably between the two big strikes. I was quite young during the first one and thought it was fun going out at night with torches, and might have been in secondary school by the second one and found it a bit of a pain.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: All-Electric Homes

        "Medalion Homes" - I remember those, advertising on TV even. I lived in one in the 1960's, but it had gas central heat and gas water heat at my mother's insistence. They actually HAD IT BUILT at the time. It's worth over $1M now, but neither my mother nor myself nor my siblings saw ANYTHING out of it... the side effect of (mostly bio-dad) parents making VERY bad decisions.

    5. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Ridiculous

      "but they (and the utility copmanies) are NOT going to foot the bill for running huge numbers of high-capacity power lines into California so they can go all-electric without producing any electricity."

      If the economics are right, why not? If you have something to export and it's in short supply elsewhere, *someone* will find a way to deliver and charge for it while making a profit. Especially if you have a guaranteed market because the destination State keeps blocking new power generation.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ridiculous

        " If you have something to export and it's in short supply elsewhere, *someone* will find a way to deliver "

        When you have something you *can't* transport it doesn't that way at all. No-one can beat physics.

        Electricity is ridiculously difficult/expensive to tranport any longer distances. An example: here in North we use 400kV lines and transmission losses are about 30% per 600 miles. Which means at 1800 miles nothing goes through, It's *all* lost.

        You do the math.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Ridiculous

          Your numbers are off by quite a bit. See this paper:

          http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/harting1/

          HOWEVER, the losses from buying out-of-state electricity are still horrendous. To say nothing of the fact that the plants it comes from are not usually a nice, clean natural gas plant, rather, many of the plants that California buys electricity from are coal-fired.

          It would be slightly more efficient (and possibly less polluting) over-all to purchase a Stanley Steamer, cut the middle-men, and burn the coal yourself.

          Just something for all you smoke-belching California "green" drivers to think about next time you charge your supposedly "green" EV.

          "But MY car has no emissions!" —typical NIMBY greenaholic

    6. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Ridiculous

      "Electric heating is much less efficient than gas and much higher per-therm costs; electric heaters take longer to come up to temperature and don't reach as high a temperature either."

      Electric heat is 100% efficient. It is more expensive in comparison to using natural gas for heating, but natural gas is less efficient since it can have losses through incomplete combustion and some of that energy is making visible light (yeah, very little). You can get all sorts of temperature from an electrical heater. Using Tungsten wire you can get to well over a few thousand degrees. Bung a bunch of current through alumina and it gets hot enough to drive out the oxygen and leave pretty aluminum metal (molten).

      The problem with California importing a bunch of electricity is the Public Utilities Commission has no control over the out of state providers. If the spot price goes higher than the in-state distributors are allowed to charge, power is going off in areas.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "California said it plans to petition the EPA and call on the government to take its own actions"

    If the EPA is to mandate new Californicated green love at the federal level that leaves doors open for companies to abuse other states. If California wants this, they should first attempt to annex themselves from the USA. New York city alone would be a nightmare.

    *IF* this was on structures built after 2030, that would be 1 thing, but all furnaces... do Californians live in the real world?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Don't blame us for this.

      We don't want it here either.

      This is all about lobbying money spent by our fresh out of bankruptcy electrical utilities. PG&E and Edison want to knock out gas and liquid fuel sales to consumers to create a power monopoly. That is all this is about. The infiltrated CARB under the guise of green initiatives like solar and electric cars, but the voice of the lobbyists has been getting louder and louder.

      The CA electrical is teetering on Texas or Puerto Rico levels of problems. There is no plan to "fix" the grid by 2030. There are no provisions in these rules to delay or cancel them if the grid isn't ready by then. They curtail residential use of gas as an environmental "EVIL" while ensuring that the power companies will then be the biggest consumers of natural gas. This is all a massive screwjob on the populace of California, and if it's not stopped, this will end badly.

      Sadly our current Governor, one Gavin Newsom is very much in the pocket of these companies after the PG&E bailout. Instead of holding them to task and either taking over the state power grid when they defaulted or forcing them to address the issues, he looks the other way. Just in the last two months they have caused more wildfires, and were caught turning plants off during peak hours, creating rolling blackouts and triggering surge pricing. He isn't going to have the state running on 100% renewables by 2030, and we can't build any new nukes by then. Notice he has presidential ambitions, and all of this will kick in either after he leaves California or is out of office. Don't vote for him if he runs out of California. We should know better by now, but at least that is a self punishing crime.

      Most of these operators are making their money off the generation of power, not the delivery. This move is about eliminating a competitor and forcing them to be a cut rate supplier. In homes, you can still cook on an efficient induction plate, or in a microwave without removing the gas service. In areas with cold weather, access to alternate heat during winter outages is LIFE SAVING. Mandate insulation upgrades before removing existing things like water heaters and furnaces. It will also pay dividends on the hot days.

      Mandate the installation of efficient options, not the removal of them, and leave the residents to sort out which to use. I have a gas stove, but I cook 85% of my food on a stand alone electric plate. Banning my stove isn't saving much power, and making my landlord install proper insulation will cut my carbon footprint more than any other thing.

      You can't trust these pirates, they literally are willing to kill people due to lack of maintenance. Once they cut out the competition, this will make Enron look like a picnic.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Don't blame us for this.

        "There is no plan to "fix" the grid by 2030. There are no provisions in these rules to delay or cancel them if the grid isn't ready by then"

        It's private companies that hold the monopolies so it those companies that have to do the upgrading. If they find it better to take their money and invest in stocks and bonds to have a better return for their shareholders (the C-level execs), they'll do that instead of adding or upgrading capability. That's problem one. The State should be setting regulations that put limits on executive compensation and re-investment as part of needing to maintain an effective monopoly since it makes zero sense to have several power companies stringing lines all over the place.

        "Instead of holding them to task and either taking over the state power grid when they defaulted or forcing them to address the issues, he looks the other way."

        The State was a contributor to PG&E having to declare bankruptcy. If the State won't allow the companies to clear trees and brush away from their distribution lines as far back as they feel is necessary, the State has to take part of the blame for fires. Instead, we now have those companies shutting the lines down when there are high winds causing blackouts so they can manage their risk.

        I do not want the government to take over the utilities. I couldn't think of a faster way to wind up with the highest priced power in the world with a reliability on par with small African nations. California has lots of work to do filling pot holes and upgrading bridges to add another giant lot of people to the underwater State pension program. The Governor just saw it necessary to veto a law providing kindergarten universally across the state due to cost. Funny though, there is money to hand out to those in the country informally for food, housing, healthcare and other services. You'd think that something as core as education would be first and foremost. Apparently not. Perhaps it's because 5 year olds don't have the vote (yet).

      2. Swarthy
        WTF?

        Re: Don't blame us for this.

        I also find it curious that CARB is going after domestic gas, when the emissions from it are insignificant compared to commercial emissions. I get that there are a lot of homes, and the small bits add up; but one fertilizer plant emits just as much as a significant number of homes.

        This reeks of the same "green-washing" as crying about plastic straws being used and possibly winding up in the ocean, while doing nothing about industrial fishing nets getting chucked in the ocean.

        It is another example of re-directing the blame for climate issues to individuals (who can't afford lobbying money) rather than the corporations/industries that are actually causing it. See: Exxon/BP pushing domestic recycling and the frequent articles decrying "Americans are addicted to plastic".

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Don't blame us for this.

          "frequent articles decrying "Americans are addicted to plastic"."

          Like there is a choice for many things that are now plastic. I know of only one supermarket near me that has paper bags. I have my own shopping bags, but if I don't have enough room or didn't put them back in the car, the only option is often plastic. It took me a while to find some glass syringes to build a model Stirling engine. My mom was able to find some at the hospital when she was a nurse. It seems that they are very useful when placing the needle for an spinal block on women in labor. The anesthesiologist can feel when the needle enters the epidural space better with the glass than plastic syringe. (I got new ones, not used). I can recall getting milk in returnable glass bottles when I was young.

          Manufacturers sell what we buy with very little input from the customer.

      3. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

        Re: Don't blame us for this.

        Puerto Rico perhaps, but Texas only has a problem when the weather is unusually cold. Kinda surprised the power company there hasn't had its nuts slapped off over this yet. If it happens again though... No, California has serious power problems, and the only reason it doesn't look big is California took the same approach to eliminating rolling blackouts that they took on eliminating crime - redefined what is considered a rolling blackout/crime. In order to have a blackout called a blackout in California, X tens of thousands of people have to be affected. If 1 person less is affected, it wasn't a blackout.

        What really needs to happen in California is to get a bunch of Conservatives to run as rabid greenies, enough to be able to override vetos, then roll all that crap back. Get rid of CARB, the works. and put someone who charge who understands that you can't legislate physics.

    2. J.G.Harston Silver badge

      What about States Rights? If California wants to do this, that is their perfect right, but they have no right to force other states to do it.

      If the whole *Federation* wants it to be done at *Federal* level, then do so - but I'm sure this is the sort of thing the Constitution says should be done at state level. Probably the Commerce Clause in the opposite way to how it's normally applied. "Stuff within state is stuff within state, you want it? get off your ares and deal with it.".

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      do Californians live in the real world?

      SOME still do, but the rest are in CLOWN WORLD

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    More economic suicide to solve and imaginary problem

    Europe and California are leading the charge to plunge their citizens back to the stone ages to solve a problem that does not exist. So sad to see so many people can believe a hoax so easily. Never underestimate the effectiveness of propaganda. Meanwhile, India and China's new emissions will offset any CO2 "savings" by many, many multiples.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: More economic suicide to solve and imaginary problem

      And anyway I'm going to be dead before this region becomes uninhabitable so why should I care?

      Plus - look at my new truck

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: More economic suicide to solve and imaginary problem

      "Meanwhile, India and China's new emissions will offset any CO2 "savings" by many, many multiples."

      That's ok because those countries have mostly been exempted by the green treaties along with most of Africa. You'd think that the issue was one of first world rape of the third world reparations rather than a global problem that needs to be addressed or the emission limits would be applied universally.

      The developing countries could do much better since they aren't having to replace and modify existing infrastructure. Anywhere a region is starting mostly from scratch is a good place to use the most up to date and efficient technology.

  7. GaryLowe

    I live in Northern California and the electrical grid is already iffy and unless PG&E upgrades the system, things like this mandate will simply make things worse. We have decide to equip our place with enough solar to general ~8000 kwh per year and two Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, most people wouldn't be able to afford this sort of setup as it's going to cost us $45,000 with a federal tax credit.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Loose the over-priced under-performing Tesla drek. There are much better options.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "We have decide to equip our place with enough solar to general ~8000 kwh per year and two Tesla Powerwall batteries."

      F Tesla. Look at the offerings from Bosch, Siemens, LG, BYD and ask some specialty electricians about other ala carte systems that will cost less and fit your needs much better. Tesla seems to have the prettiest box, but it's the tops for price and mediocre for performance. Get a good independent audit first too. A monthly total is useless to calculate a system. Keep in mind that grid power is a good value when balanced against the ROI of many PV systems. If your solar system is good enough during an outage if you economize a bit, that could save a bunch of money rather than building out something that will run everything all of the time.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "I live in Northern California and the electrical grid is already iffy and unless PG&E upgrades the system, things like this mandate will simply make things worse."

      It does make one wonder exactly what PG&E are thinking. There's been a shift to "decarbonising" for a while now, moves aimed at moving to EV etc for a some years. A company with a major hold on the delivery of electricity should be rubbing it's hands with glee and vastly improving it's delivery network so it can deliver on the massive increase in demand and make huge profits.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        >should be rubbing it's hands with glee and vastly improving it's delivery network

        PG&E are in a weird state, they're effectively a private public company - they are so tightly regulated in what they can charge/spend/borrow that at this point they may as well be nationalised. Nobody is going to lend them the amount of money that they need to invest to improve the grid because their future profits are so circumscribed

    4. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

      Best check the law on that before spending the money. I'm pretty sure NEM 3.0 bans standalone solar. You must be connected to the grid in CA, and your solar power gets shut off if the grid fails. Yes, I know about transfer switches, this is a CA law thing.

      1. jake Silver badge

        "I'm pretty sure NEM 3.0 bans standalone solar."

        Not true. In fact, I had the utility company take their shit off my property. Right at the moment, I couldn't be grid-tied if I wanted to be.

        "You must be connected to the grid in CA,"

        Again, not true.

        "and your solar power gets shut off if the grid fails."

        No. Just no. Stop spreading misinformation, you're not helping anyone.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "your solar power gets shut off if the grid fails"

        If your system will "island", you are ok. I am planning on a zero-export installation so solar generated power is used first followed by battery if I install some and then the grid. I'll get the installation blessed in whatever configuration passes muster and then make changes if I need to. They don't drop by and see what you have after the install has had its final checks.

        I have seen stories about places where the government doesn't want to allow somebody to live off-grid and is requiring them to hook up or their property will be condemned. That burns my backside. The ultimate in being green is living a lifestyle that is completely self-contained. We've not been too many years along of most people being tethered to utilities. My gran grew up with a privy out back and a hand pump for water in the US south. She was a bit cuckoo, but physically healthy so it didn't do her no harm. The difference between what she had and somebody with a septic system and a well with an electric pump isn't all that different.

        1. jake Silver badge

          "requiring them to hook up or their property will be condemned."

          Shouldn't be happening in California anymore. Changes to Title 24 should have put a stop to that. Mind you, you still have to pass the inspection, which can be quite draconian. Especially local laws that only exist to fill the coffers. Suggestion: Do homework BEFORE purchasing that "perfect" off-grid retirement property.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            "Shouldn't be happening in California anymore. Changes to Title 24 should have put a stop to that."

            The report I saw wasn't from California. I think it was in the south somewhere. Isn't it Colorado where you can't legally collect rain water as it belongs to somebody else? I can recall another report where somebody built a pond and got smacked since they didn't have the "rights" to use water from the stream on their property to fill it. The overflow went right back into the stream so once it was full, it was using a negligible amount of water.

  8. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge
    FAIL

    Trying the heat pumps now but missing the elephant the room

    Rheem/Rhuud heat pump hot water heater - So far works well except for the EcoNet control software being an embarrassment to anyone who has written a single line of code. Energy consumption is a crazy low 3 kW/h a day. The garage was cool all summer long. Time will tell if this is still a good idea in winter time.

    Carrier high efficiency inverter driven heat pump - Has worked well through a winter and summer. Can adapt to temperature extremes by changing the compressor and fan speeds rather than refusing to run like older models. Winter heating costs were way down and summer cooling was cheap.

    Whirlpool heat pump clothes drier - Dries clothes with 2 to 4 Kw/h. Fails miserably at performance, ease of use, and reliability. The engineering budget must have been free snacks. Sadly, it's the only large heat pump clothes drier for sale in the US.

    But...

    The #1 waste of energy remains Caltans/DOT engineering. I have seen no place in the world with traffic flows as inefficient as California. Every time I see a "Spare the Air" alert asking us to cut down on pollution, I want to remind the same government that there are hundreds of square miles of cars idling at empty intersections with red lights. Urban expressways average about the same speed as residential streets. Urban public transportation averages 3 to 25 MPH if you need to transfer and yet it's almost as expensive as a taxi. This is epic failure territory. California could do nothing special at all and at least transportation would improve up to average quality.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Trying the heat pumps now but missing the elephant the room

      "Urban public transportation averages 3 to 25 MPH if you need to transfer and yet it's almost as expensive as a taxi."

      A problem with a lot of pubic transportation is it isn't built where it's best to build, but where it's easiest to condemn the land. Too much of it in the US doesn't connect up so you can't securely park your car or bike at a local hub and get between a trolley, train and airport. Forget busses. They often have the slowest average speed so anything other than a trip that only a few stops it going to be too long. The bus schedules also don't line up with the train schedules where I am making them useless. I can't get a bus from my city to catch the first commuter train down the highway from me. If I don't get the first train when I go to visit my mom, I'd have to wait at the transfer point where I need to change trains an extra hour and a half. The second to last return train would leave me waiting for the bus to get home an hour and a half. There is also no way to plan an overnight trip as the commuter station is in a really bad part of town and the parking lot deserted at night.

      The people planning these things not only drive everywhere, they're given a government car and gas card to do all of that driving. Whatever design inputs they are using aren't something they have to live with or use.

  9. LazLong
    WTF?

    Special CA kit

    We who live in CA already have to buy special gas heaters and water heaters that adds about 25% to the cost.

    Both our water heaters are relatively new, but our furnace is aged, at least 30 years old. I guess we'll be replacing it right before the ban. I already have a rediculous PG&E monthly bill over $300, and that's with our roof covered with solar. Too many older servers, plus other misc electronic kit. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay to have new electrical installed to power the water heaters and furnace. I'll fucking drive to a nearby state and buy what I need. Almost did that with the last water heater I bought.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Special CA kit

      "Both our water heaters are relatively new, but our furnace is aged, at least 30 years old. I guess we'll be replacing it right before the ban. I already have a rediculous PG&E monthly bill over $300, and that's with our roof covered with solar"

      It might be worth an out of state trip to pick up something when needed. Why the large electric bill? Something isn't right. I had a neighbor that got fed up with high cooling bills and finally hired a company to bulk up the insulation in his attic, whey they had a look to see what would be needed, they found that there was no insulation to begin with. This friend bought the house new and never had a reason to look in the attic crawl space. Some building inspector got paid off or was very incompetent to miss that one. Adding insulation made a huge difference. It did turn out there was insulation in the exterior walls, but they made sure after finding nothing in the attic. They had just assumed there would be some as it's mandatory.

  10. David Nash Silver badge

    Furnace?

    Are they talking about domestic water boilers?

    1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

      Re: Furnace?

      No, I think "furnace" is left-pond speak for "central heating boiler".

      Everywhere else in the world, "furnace" is the sort of thing used for smelting iron or steel, growing up in Sheffield the things I see glowing on the skyline.

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Furnace?

        I think "furnace" is left-pond speak for "central heating boiler".

        Not necessarily; it's for any sort of combustion-based central-heating unit. Forced-air is more common than radiant heat (either old-fashioned freestanding radiators or radiant-floor) in the US, so nothing's being boiled.

        For that matter, even with radiant heat, it's usually hot water rather than steam.

        (And "furnace" is also used here for smelters and such.)

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Furnace?

          A "central heating boiler" doesn't literally boil the water and use the steam to transfer heat. It's just water sent through copper pipes to radiators around the house. Boiler is being used in a less than literal sense here in the UK in the same way that furnace is used in a less than literal sense in the US :-)

          I think the confusion is left and right pondians thinking both items are the same things with different names. From the posts I've seen, it seems ducted air is more likely in the US while pumped hot water is more likely in the UK.

          1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

            Re: Furnace?

            Having been involved in central heating "boiler" systems on the electrical side for decades, it's clear we're seeing a historical fossil in the name from when central heating really did use steam to transfer the heat, as in my primary school in the '70s with the four-inch cast-iron distribution pipes and the admonishment from teachers not to fiddle with the valves.

            Even in the '70s when, as a child, I "helped" my Dad install our central heating it was water as the delivery medium. When we covered it as part of my C&G in 1990 it was 60C flow 40C return to deliver 20C from the radiators, so it's never been a "boiling" system. I think there's just never been a neutral replacement term for the active heating part of the system. It's like pencil lead is still called lead centuries after clay/graphite composite started being used. "Water heater" doesn't work as that's a device connected directly to a hot tap to locally provide hot water.

            Though, even though the American term is also a fossil, I cannot comprehend how "furnace" became their term. "Furnace" is something that heats to extremes with the intent of breaking down the stuff being heated, something you approach only when dressed in protective clothing.

    2. PRR Bronze badge
      Flame

      Re: Furnace?

      > Furnace? Are they talking about domestic water boilers?

      In the US (and much of Canada): small residential steam heat is obsolete, and hydronic (hot water) is a deluxe choice. Partly the cost of piping. A major factor in recent years is that we MUST have air conditioning, which rather forces a full air-duct system for coolth, so may as well use it for warmth also.

      The oldest hot-air furnaces were not so different from a (coal fired) blacksmith furnace, enclosed in a tin bonnet from which hot air rose through ducts to the house. My last house, originally a single wood-stove, once had just one heat grille next to the base of the stairs, far from the kitchen (which had its own wood/coal stove). About 1925 they drilled the house and dragged in several tons of steam-heat pipe and boiler.

      But post-WWII it was all scorched-air. Mass produced ducting led to a register in every room and a dedicated return system. Coal-strikes had already led to oil and then gas fires.Electric blowers for smaller air-space in furnace and smaller ducts. My new 94.5% efficient gas burner is really quite sleek, and exhausts just above body temperature (the 1990s furnace's stack would roast your face at arm's length).

      As always there are other choices. PEX piping promises warm-all-over floors and lower air temp. (Can be spotty, and leak with age, esp. with careless work.) In our woods there is a fad for a HUGE (bigger than an outhouse) wood-burning boiler out in the yard, and the only way that can deliver heat is hot water. Heat exchangers have been sold and have failed in cold air. (Don't say ground-source; here is all granite a foot below the surface, and regulators are very wary of polluting our deep-water more than we already have.)

      Fun fact: wood heat is VERY popular in my neck of the woods (just my "tree weeding" would yield enough to heat the house) but you can't get homeowner insurance if wood is your sole source of heat.

  11. YetAnotherXyzzy

    If the activists are right and green renewable electricity is in fact cheaper that dirty power, then there is no need for a mandate: homeowners will be replacing gas appliances with electric of their own accord.

  12. Swarthy

    Where's the Super-Cali headline?

    Has El Reg's more US-centric style guide banished them?

    Super-Cali: Furnace Heating, Boilers are Atrocious

    There, Fixed it!

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Topic is misleading

    California isn't doing *anything* to "phase out gas".

    Only thing they are doing, is banning from it from private citizens ... and moving that, doubled, to power companies.Obviously NOx isn't a problem at all when power company makes it. Millions of tons of it.

    Burning gas inside the house makes almost 100% efficiency. Burning same gas to make steam to run the turbine which runs a generator creates immediately at lest 30% losses. Add transfer losses between power station and house, another 30%, and you need to burn at least twice the amount of gas to get same amount of heat into house.

    As a paid/bribed "side effect" effective monopoly to power company. Which obviously is *the goal* and everything else is patentable bullshit.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Topic is misleading

      "Burning gas inside the house makes almost 100% efficiency. "

      Using electricity for heat IS 100% efficient. It's also more expensive so what should be said is the "cost efficiency" of using electricity is worse than using gas at a 90something percent efficiency.

  14. Grinning Bandicoot

    NIRVANA

    Move all into huge barracks, arcologies. Entry through triple heat locks , no windows to foul up air/heat exchangersThe waste heat of the cooling system will provide plenty of heat for hot water and possibly distillation of the grey, black water could dried and used at the units farm fertilizing the avocados and beans used on the sandwiches. The structure will be a net producer of heat so there will always the waste heat to use as long as the proles are packed in to the designers spec. Beltways and elevators take care to the pesky vehicles. NIRVANA

    I read about 60 years back the the average person produces 100 kilowatts per ?? and have been seeking the original citation. When jumping on me bring the NASA source. Also for those that are handy, water jacket the coils of the reefer; lots waste heat there. Closing the cycle can do wonders for the energy bill.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: NIRVANA

      "I read about 60 years back the the average person produces 100 kilowatts per ??"

      More like 100W on a more or less continuous basis. Less when sleeping and more when active.

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