IT services giant Wipro fires 300 for moonlighting

Rishad Premji, executive chairman of Indian IT services giant Wipro, revealed on Wednesday that the company fired 300 employees for moonlighting with its competitors. "The reality is that there are people today working for Wipro and working directly for one of our competitors. We've actually discovered 300 people in the last …

[Anonymous Coward]

Must show loyalty constantly

Minions Must show loyalty constantly but saintly mangers can have as many jobs as they want.

How long will it take for India to get out of this phase in their catching up to the sophisticated heights of the Europeans or Americans?

[aerogems]

Re: Must show loyalty constantly

Maybe Europeans, but definitely not Americans. America is very much in the grips of the same nonsense. Employees are expected to have cult-like devotion to the employer, but the employer is free to abuse them, or even discard them, on a whim, and the employees are expected to be grateful for it. There's no shortage of talking heads ready to defend this sort of thing either.

[Drew Scriver]

Re: Must show loyalty constantly

In the US of A it really depends on the state where the employee works (or resides). For instance, some states requires (lunch) breaks whilte others do not. Some states require employee access to their personnel file, others do not.

Then there's the distinction between hourly and salaried workers. In many regards hourly employees enjoy more protections than salaried ones.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it depends as much on who you work for as where

There are plenty of delusional narcissists running businesses and scamming employees in the big blue states too. It's not exactly a socialist paradise out here. But there are better companies and worse ones. I've worked for both over the years.

You are right that we have more laws on the books, and when they are observed they can make a big difference. Giving them teeth and making them stick is a work in progress though. There is still rampant wage theft and illegal labor practices all over out here, where employees either don't know the law, are afraid to speak up, or don't bother because the 4 people before them tried and didn't get anywhere. Plenty of them have been quitting, others just mentally check out.

Too many of these things are impossible for employees to enforce on their own, either due to a lack of time and money on their part, or having to rely on a 3rd party to investigate and enforce their rights.

One last thing. Salary is a trap. 90% of the time it's how they trick people into working unlimited unpaid overtime whenever they want. Thankfully, in my location, they CAN'T stop paying me for OT worked.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Must show loyalty constantly

All true enough.

It's also not a coincidence that many US companies hire on lots of wipro (and infosys et al) contractors.

[Mayday]

Re: Must show loyalty constantly - USA

Indeed.

How many posts on LinkedIn do you see where someone was laid off or otherwise fired and they thank the employer for the great time they had?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Must show loyalty constantly

There's also the fun bit where branches of US companies in European countries tend to simply ignore local laws.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Must show loyalty constantly

...and fall under the bus when they suddenly realise that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[aerogems]

I'm a little torn

On the one hand, I'm generally of the mindset that, as long as you are getting the work done you're being paid for... what you do in your spare time is none of your employer's business. If I am paying you to produce 50 widgets over the span of 8-hours, but you can do that in 2, with no reduction in quality, you can have the extra 6-hours off as a reward as far as I'm concerned.

The one exception I might grant is when your after-work activities might impact your day job. If you're part of Apple's iPhone development team, for example, and you do some consulting work for Samsung in the same area... that could be an issue. But if you were doing some contract work for Adobe on the next version of Photoshop, that doesn't have anything at all to do with your work at Apple. So, as long as you don't blab about specs for the next iPhone or something, it's none of Apple's business.

[Binraider]

Re: I'm a little torn

Nominally, I would agree, though conflicts of interest can arise. Particularly where working for one employer gives intel that can be used and abused by a second.

There are a few regulated industries in the UK where moonlighting is not blocked, but needs to be declared to control such risks.

And then there are the downright corrupt that will just do it anyway; but that is a different story!

[Anonymous Coward]

Conflict is key

To many employers want to control their employees lives with no justification. The case where there is a legitimate conflict of interest is the only one where they should have a say, or even need to be aware.

In many cases even working for a direct competitor offers neither employer advantage beyond the hours of labor. Look at Lyft and Uber drivers. Nurses and doctors regularly pull shifts between different hospitals and clinics. So do some mechanics. The world isn't ending in those industries.

Workers should be free to do what they want with their own time, with strong protections from their 9-5 employer prying into their affairs. Otherwise if an employee can't get a legal side hustle, they will either embezzle, or get an illegal side hustle. Then you have Walter White problems on your hands.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Conflict is key

Too many.

[Binraider]

Re: Conflict is key

What if I "invent" something useful to my employer in my own time?

In my case (and a lot of others), contractually the IP resides with the employer. And thats where having two employers gets particularly awkward.

We have to declare potential conflicts of interest e.g. if I own shares in a company that happens to also be a supplier to employer. This of course has no bearing on decisions from my desk - though I would not have to move far to be in a place where it might; and again, that is where problems lie.

[A Nother Handle]

Re: Conflict is key

If you're already happy to give up the rights to your invention to an employer It sounds like that's the two employers' problem to reaolve.

[IGotOut]

Re: Conflict is key

What if I "invent" something useful to my employer in my own time?

In my case (and a lot of others), contractually the IP resides with the employer.

No it does not.

If you are using work time, or work tools then yes.

But if you develop a kick ass widget that your employer wants, they have fuck all claim.

This contract bollocks is about as enforceable as signs that say "we accept no liability for....."

Contracts DO NOT override the law.

[imanidiot]

Re: Conflict is key

Depends very much on the something and your contract with the company. If that something is very closely related to the work you do for your employer and a clear case can be made that you would not have had the knowledge to develop that something if you had not been employed by that company or had access to their institutional knowledge during your normal job then it might very well be that the IP to your something DOES belong to the company or at the very least that you'll not be allowed to sell or disclose said something to anyone else without cutting in the company for an to be agreed upon percentage. They cannot however force you to hand over the IP for said something without any sort of compensation either (that would be theft and illegal too). Whether or not your normal job compensation will suffice depends on the something and would likely be a matter for the courts (but good luck suing them for it as it'll have the shirt of your back long before come to bedtime)

[Pete 2]

restrictive conditions?

> working for Wipro and working directly for one of our competitors. We've actually discovered 300 people in the last few months were doing exactly that

Did their contract of employment explicitly prohibit that?

It also makes you wonder, how does Wipro know that they were working for them (Wipro) before starting work (moonlighting) for someone else. It could be that their Wipro gig was the moonlighting.

Still, it sounds like they have another job to fall back on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: restrictive conditions?

"> working for Wipro and working directly for one of our competitors. We've actually discovered 300 people in the last few months were doing exactly that

Did their contract of employment explicitly prohibit that?"

First, in almost every country I've been to, and I suppose India is one of them, 2 full times jobs is prohibited by the law.

Second, every IT services company I've worked for, of course, not only prohibits this, but also prohibits leaking any info to a competitor.

I can't imagine Wipro didn't do the basics !

[nobody who matters]

Re: restrictive conditions?

Don't know about other countries, but having two jobs isn't illegal in the UK. Even taking into consideration the Working Time Regulations, you can opt out of the maximum 48 average working week if you are over 18, and there are only a limited number of jobs from which you are constrained by legal limits on your working hours (such as lorry drivers and airline pilots for example).

I wouldn't want to do two jobs though - I have periods of the year where I am working 80+ hours a week on one job.

[kwhitefoot]

Re: restrictive conditions?

That's because the UK negotiated an exemption. Here in Norway you cannot opt out of the restrictions on working time as an employee. On the other hand if you are a self employed contractor you can work 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: restrictive conditions?

In Italy having a second job is not illegal - but there are restrictions for employees. First - the confidentiality/competition requirements, second, the total working time. The latter can't exceed 48h per week, and 13h per day with at least 11h of rest. Employers are accountable for exceeding that.

Of course if the second job is self-employed there are not work time limitations - but the confidentiality and competition requirements stands. Anyway, using an employer tools to perform a second job is a no-no.

Then there specific sector restrictions - public sector employee can't have a second job, including military personnel. Recently a non-commissioned officer went into troubles because he was caught working for Uber.

But I wonder why someone should disclose "if they play in a band" - unless they do it as a band employee.

When I occasionally did some work for an old customer of a company that went bust years ago - I disclosed it to my current employee (completely different business, anyway - the customer is a museum. also). But when I sold some photographs of mine taken on my own time was not any business of theirs - although the revenue service could be interested in it as well...

[Gwaptiva]

Re: restrictive conditions?

But then, I would love my German employer to force a non-compete clause on me that goes past the end of the contract (like described in the article). In Germany, to make that stick, he'll have to continue to pay me for as long as he wishes to block me away from the competition. Bring it on, I can use some extra holidays

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: restrictive conditions?

Same in France. Those non-compete clauses have to be limited in scope, time and geographical range, and they must be compensated.

For some reasons, even employers who put them in contracts remove them as a matter of course as soon as the contract ends.

[sketharaman]

Re: restrictive conditions?

When I joined Wipro in 1988, my employment contract included a "No Moonlighting" clause. So did the employment contract of every other Indian and American IT company that I worked for since I left Wipro in 1991. In the current case, the 300 fired employees not only violated the no moonlighting clause but, by working for competitors, they also probably broke nondisclosure provision in their employment contracts.

[Allan George Dyer]

Have they thought of paying enough so that workers don't need another job to make ends meet?

[Tom 7]

Oooh there go my stitches again!

[aerogems]

To quote George Carlin

We don't have time for rational solutions!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thought of, laughed over, kicked out. Never considered ever again.

[Anonymous Coward]

inflation

"Prior to the email, Infosys's former director, Mohandas Pai, mused that moonlighting is caused by junior pay grades staying stagnant for over a decade, compounded by the extra time recovered when employees work from home and no longer have (sometimes lengthy) commutes."

Not to be forgotten India's inflation which is now quite high. India employee salary stagnant for one decade ???? Not happening, ever, mate. Less than 10% increase YoY is seen as an insult or a way to show you the door.

[martinusher]

Its a different world over there

Back in the good old days employers used to not just employ you, they owned you. They expected to have a say in how and where you lived and how you spent your time. This faded a bit in western countries but obviously the idea is alive and well in the east. Its the sort of thing that we need to get back here -- we need our employees to be wide awake, focused, totally committed and generally be upstanding citizens, its good for both the company image and the bottom line. If you've got any complaints then you don't need to work here (and its not our fault if you starve).

This sort of thing faded in the west but is obviously alive and well in the east. We'll probably need to reinstate it to be competitive.

(I'm glad I missed out on those days)

[Henry Wertz 1]

None of their business

I'm with NITES -- if I'm paid to be there 8 hours (or 9 I suppose because of breaks), it's literally none of their business what I do the other 15 hours a day. If someone is burning the candle at both ends too much, their work will suffer and they can take action on that. It should be more telling that they are paying so poorly that significant numbers of employees are feeling the need to work two jobs.

[DS999]

Depends on what they mean

If you are working a full time job, let's say they expect you to be working from 9-5 M-F or something, and you take a job that you will be doing on evenings or weekends they shouldn't be able to stop you. But if you take a second full time job that also expects you to be working from 9-5 M-F then that shouldn't be allowed.

If both jobs are WFH, you might be able to manage it through a combination of working harder/more efficiently and lying to both employers about how swamped you are to keep them from giving you more work - i.e. you'd want to seem like a 'low performer' who is reliable about getting the required work done but isn't someone you'd assign special projects to and isn't someone that you're going to give discretionary raises/bonuses to. This would make you more vulnerable to layoffs, but at least if you were laid off you'd only lose half your income.

You'd have to have a job that doesn't have much in the way of meetings. If you have a couple hours of meetings in each job, you'd inevitably have conflicts and have to come up with an excuse why you can't make one of them. An excuse now and then is expected, but if you were bowing out of several meetings each week someone is going to figure out something funny is going on - and at least ask for a more detailed explanation of why you keep canceling or no-showing so many meetings.

[Al fazed]

WTF ?

If they paid their trained monkeys enough money in the first place they wouldn't need to moonlight, or have a second income.

Would they now ?

Boo fucking Hoo

ALF