Was there life on Mars? Perseverance scrapes up promising samples

NASA says its Perseverance rover has pulled up some exciting samples "deposited under conditions where life could potentially have thrived" after trundling around an ancient area of wetland that formed when a Martian river emptied water and sediment into a lake. The space agency, which plans to bring the samples back to Earth …

[Anonymous Coward]

Cue David Bowie

"It's a God-awful small affair

To the girl with the mousy hair

But her mummy is yelling, "No"

And her daddy has told her to go

But her friend is nowhere to be seen

Now she walks through her sunken dream

To the seat with the clearest view

And she's hooked to the silver screen

But the film is a saddening bore

For she's lived it ten times or more

She could spit in the eyes of fools

As they ask her to focus on

Sailors fighting in the dance hall

Oh man, look at those cavemen go

It's the freakiest show

Take a look at the lawman

Beating up the wrong guy

Oh man, wonder if he'll ever know

He's in the best selling show

Is there life on Mars?

It's on America's tortured brow

That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow

Now the workers have struck for fame

'Cause Lennon's on sale again

See the mice in their million hordes

From Ibiza to the Norfolk Broads

Rule Britannia is out of bounds

To my mother, my dog, and clowns

But the film is a saddening bore

'Cause I wrote it ten times or more

It's about to be writ again

As I ask you to focus on

Sailors fighting in the dance hall

Oh man, look at those cavemen go

It's the freakiest show

Take a look at the lawman

Beating up the wrong guy

Oh man, wonder if he'll ever know

He's in the best selling show

Is there life on Mars?"

[PhilipN]

Credit where it's due

"look at those cavemen go" was a line lifted from Alley Oop.

But then Mr. Jones had not long left behind laughing gnomes and other novelty items.

[teknopaul]

Leave it where it is

I am down with looking for life on Mars but I think we should leave it on Mars.

I won't be long before Musk is there to prod and poke at it in an environment where if it pops back to life its only him that has to deal with the consequences.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that easy a question

Sulfate minerals are associated with water, and water is likely to dissolve organics, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was from life. Here on earth we've had billions of years of life to make, change and deposit organics. There must have been primordial organics on Mars, but who knows what they would have been transformed into over the same timespan by the physical and chemical processes of an abiotic world? I can see a lot of arguing to be done even when we get the samples back.

[Anonymous Coward]

Life debate

Boffins have been debating signs of life since the Viking lander biological experiments which detected life in 1976. They've also been debating fossilized formations in Martian meteorites which seem to duplicate fossilized formations in Earth rocks which were life based.

I suspect the debate will continue until we put a biologist on Mars.

While I know which side I'm on (life), I toast all the boffins on both sides for their continuing research into the issue.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Life debate

"fossilized formations in Martian meteorites which seem to duplicate fossilized formations in Earth rocks which were life based."

You mean ALH 84001? It sounds like the formations are too small (not enough space for enough atoms) to be biological. What's needed is something that is much more definitive. The best thing would be to find something that's still wriggling a bit and get some video. Possible primitive life that might have existed a few billion years ago isn't all that compelling. The cost of that data point is so astronomical that the money would have been better spent on something else. A lander on Enceladus might be interesting.

[Anonymous Coward]

Life is inevitable

Whether it’s on Mars or not.

[EnviableOne]

Re: Life is inevitable

Death Is Inevitable, life however, is a matter of happenstance

[Timbo]

Not collected until 2033?

So, these samples have mostly been collected from under the surface of Mars...and they have now been put into these "collecting tubes" and just left on the surface of Mars?

And they will be there for 10+ years until something collects them and brings them back to Earth...so will these samples have been irradiated from being exposed to radiation from beyond Mars atmosphere? Seems a bit dumb to be expecting to see "formerly pristine buried soil samples" in its original state if it has then been "damaged" from being left on the surface for so long?

[cray74]

Re: Not collected until 2033?

And they will be there for 10+ years until something collects them and brings them back to Earth...so will these samples have been irradiated from being exposed to radiation from beyond Mars atmosphere?

There are two significant forms of radiation that get through Mars' atmosphere to its surface and could modify samples:

1. Ultraviolet light

2. Cosmic rays

The Perseverance sample tubes are opaque to ultraviolet light. Their layers of alumina, titanium, and titanium nitride will easily block ultraviolet light. Thin sheet metal would do the job.

Cosmic rays, on the other hand, can go through several meters of water or a meter of rock. Earth's atmosphere is sufficient to stop them since it's equivalent to about ten meters of water. Mars' atmosphere is hardly a distraction to cosmic rays, which is why hypothetical Martian habitats like to hide in lava tubes or heap meters of soil atop their crew areas.

Over 10 years, those samples sitting on the surface will be bombarded by 0.77 grays of cosmic rays. Or 77 rads, if you prefer. However,

1. It usually takes several million rads to modify minerals significantly, and

2. Perseverance is only able to drill out near-surface samples a few centimeters into rock

Seems a bit dumb to be expecting to see "formerly pristine buried soil samples" in its original state if it has then been "damaged" from being left on the surface for so long?

Given the penetration of cosmic rays, and given that Perseverance only drills a centimeters into rock, those rock samples will effectively get equal doses of cosmic radiation whether they're in the original rock for 10 more years or sitting in sample tubes. Further, minerals won't notice at that modest level of dosing for 10 more years. After all, in the past 4 billion years they've picked up about 300 megarads (3 million grays) of cosmic radiation.

[M.V. Lipvig]

This does not sound like a good idea

Obviously these guys didn't learn the lessons of colonial times, about bringing potential microbes to people with no immunity. The Conquistadors killed more Aztecs with diaease than sword, and the US military killed a lot of native Americans with smallpox-infected blankets.

It's already a known fact that viruses, prions and whatnot can survive in a dormant state for damn near ever, so now they want to bring biological materials in from another planet? If there's even a small oops in the lab, Earth might become lifeless practically overnight. Better to build a lab and send it there than to bring this stuff here, at least initially. If it passes a remote lab sent to Mars, perhaps then they can bring samples here.

[Twanky]

Re: This does not sound like a good idea

...If there's even a small oops in the lab, Earth might become lifeless practically overnight.

No it won't. It might not be the life that was there before the 'oops', but it won't be lifeless.

It could lead to some alternative creation theories: "In the beginning was the 'oops' and the creator said 'hmm, that's interesting'".

[Potemkine!]

Re: This does not sound like a good idea

Aztecs didn't know about quarantine. We do.

== Bring us Dabbsy back! ==

[Killing Time]

Re: This does not sound like a good idea

'so now they want to bring biological materials in from another planet? '

Not seeing any mention of biological materials in the article, just organic molecules. So essentially some carbon based chemical compounds. If these compounds can be detected then it's reasonable to assume that these molecules could probably be synthesised in a lab on Earth.

You appear to have made quite a leap there. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest the scientific community, the space agencies and the funding governments have sat down, thought this through and assessed potential risks.

[cray74]

Re: This does not sound like a good idea

Obviously these guys didn't learn the lessons of colonial times, about bringing potential microbes to people with no immunity.

The virgin field pandemics in the Americas were caused by bacteria and viruses that had spent billions of years adapting to life on Earth, tens of millions of years in primates, and hundreds of thousands of years in modern humans. They were battle-hardened veterans familiar with fighting and defeating human immune systems.

Bringing an extremophile bacteria or virus that has spent billions of years surviving in the cold, nutrient-poor, perchlorate-laced, UV-blasted Martian soil to Earth isn't going to cause a virgin field pandemic in humans. These will be germs that have never (not in the last 4 billion years, anyway) dealt with sophisticated immune systems with terrestrial temperatures, free oxygen, moisture, and competing microbes. It'd be like picking a microbe out of Antarctica and dropping it into a Yellowstone geyser. It won't thrive, it'll be sterilized.

It's already a known fact that viruses

Replicate by inserting new RNA or DNA into a cell with which they're familiar. If the cell doesn't have the surface proteins for the virus to lock onto and doesn't have DNA that the virus has encountered before then it's not going to replicate. For example, a virus that has evolved to infect archaebacteria doesn't jump kingdoms and infect humans. Likewise, a Martian virus won't even know human cells are viable targets.

Prions are thought to work by modifying certain types of proteins that they've developed around. Fungal prions don't jump kingdoms to humans, and fungi don't come down with spongiform encephalopathies. Martian prions are unlikely to find compatible protein targets in humans.

Earth might become lifeless practically overnight.

I'm more inclined to bet on "Martian life is accidentally sterilized" than Earth get overwhelmed by a red Martian bacterial goo scenario.

[Francis Boyle]

Acronym Fail!

They got as far as SHERLOC and couldn't be bother adding a 'knowledge" at the end.