USB-C to hit 80Gbps under updated USB4 v. 2.0 spec The USB Promoter Group has announced version 2.0 of the USB4 spec and promises it can carry data at 80Gbps. The Group’s announcement [PDF] of the spec is a little light on detail because the nitty gritty stuff will debut in time for developer events scheduled for November. For now, we’ve been told that the spec will offer the …
More to the point, where do you buy such flimsy cables from that don't last more than a year?
I've got USB cables kicking around that are 5-10 years old and still working fine. Maybe because I coil them up properly and store them when not in use, don't run my wheely chair over them and actually look after them...
I hope that all your cables fry themselves in a sudden explosion and take all your kit with them.
If you have money to throw away on cables then go ahead and waste it. The vast majority of us do not have that luxury and you know look after things that we have spent our mulah on.
The OP is making perfect sense and does not deserve a downvote.
It’s cheaper, long term, to buy good quality products which last for years than to buy cheap products that must be replaced on a yearly basis. I have cables which are 10 years old; good quality cables don’t cost 10x the price of cheap ones. Paying for quality saves money.
A few years ago, I switched to the magnetic charging cables... Plug in the USB C end, and you never have to remove it again, just wave it near the other magnet and it'll attach itself.
I bought a pack of about 5 cables... which came with 5 type C and 5 micro B ends. So I can charge my phone, my partners phone and my old tablet from the same cable. In the set was a 60CM mini one, which sits in the car... I have a 3m one that is plugged in under my desk and sits poking out from under the soundbar... and she's got one in the kitchen where she normally charges her phone and another by her side of the bed (We do actually have an agreement that no phones are allowed in the bedroom though)
The cables are nice and thick, braided with decent protection where it joins the plug.
If more than 3yrs... not one of them has failed... and if any one of them does, I have spares.
cost about £15 for the whole set.
I've suffered with shitty cables in the past... had one USB micro b amazon sold cable that fried 2 tablets... First one failed and we thought the screen had gone (was a known issue with that model), but when I gave her my old tablet and the following day the cable sparked and toasted that tablet too... Binned that garbage and vowed never to buy a cheap cable ever again.
That's easy. Micro USB cables in particular don't like being plugged and unplugged on a regular basis. I considered the cables I used to charge my phone as disposable and kept spares around since they rarely lasted more than two or thee months.
In one case, I stopped buying long cables and saved money by using a USB extension cable with a short micro USB on the end of it that I changed regularly.
I've been using the same MicroUSB cable at my desk to charge my previous personal phone (current one is USB-C) and now my work phone for about 4 or 5 years now. It isn't a fancy, expensive one either, just a cheap one that came with the phone. I know the plugs aren't the most robust in the world, but if you only get 2-3 months out of a cable, it's either dreadful quality, or you are mistreating it in some way.
If you have cables which died in three months or less, you had very bad cables and/or were abusing them. I buy quality cables, except in emergencies when I need a cable right bloody now… and even the el cheapo cables from the bargain bin at WalMart or, worse, Office Depot, last for well past a year.
"There is no change in USB Power Delivery specification..."
July 17th, 2022 " Revision 3.1 Version 1.5"
:-/ not 2 months ago.
USB-C PD is a shit show and I think anyone who has tried to implement it themselves knows this because they probably gave up. If you're reading a ridiculous amount of pages (~2,000) to figure it all out, you're probably being paid to do so. There's been so much shit added to it that it's taking on a life of it's own and essentially it has become the serial version of X.500... just too fuc'n complicated without buying an IC to do it all for you.
USB-C gives the impression of plug and play but every new version reminds me more and more of a static style connector that you hook up your washer and dryer with.
240v is O.K. but, look me up on Revision 3.5.3.a-r2 Version 2.1.3.c when 480v is added... I have some industrial excavating equipment I need powered up.
P.S. I like how it's already "2.0" of USB4.0... good to see they're keeping the none-sense going.
"just too fuc'n complicated without buying an IC to do it all for you."
That's the correct approach for something like this, buy the IC (or module for something like Bluetooth). The multithousand page spec is for the IC makers to agree on the ground rules so they can interoperate. You just plop the IC into your system (after reading the ~200 page datasheet).
Is that like the "up to xxMb/S" speeds claimed by major ISPs?
Note the protocol speed is different from the effective data transfer rate. In my experience, USB effective data transfer rates are woefully-less than the "speed" listed in the relevant spec version. Perhaps other peoples' experiences are better (... or not?)
If you need a new cable, what's the benefit of keeping the same connector, that just seems asking for confusion with people plugging 3.2 cables in to 4.0 slots and not getting enough power / starting fires..
(before people think I'm being literal with starting fires, I appreciate the systems tests for ability and does not proceed where it can't)
For the handful of occasions where you have your old cable and you don't need to worry about the bandwidth it seems odd to retain the socket given the trouble it can bring.
it also means new cables can be used with older chargers and devices, you don't need to keep different cables and adapter etc like before, can still reuse them. Then when you replace the chargers and docks with newer ones, they can still be used with older devices along with the older (you aleady have ones.
>
Anonymous Coward
it also means new cables can be used with older chargers and devices, you don't need to keep different cables and adapter etc like before, can still reuse them.
Good advice is to get rid of old charging cables and buy new charging cables of the same specification and label! That way you can differentiate between charging cables and data transfer only cables.
USB4 took the "U" out of USB years ago. You, the user, need to know the exact spec of cable, host and device to try to guess what will happen when you connect them together.
It was a choice out of industrial strategy, which seems to continue with this new version. I can't see any hint at USB4v2 supporting USB 1.x, which will concentrate even further the suppliers of USB ICs.
Those of us who have been in IT for more than a couple of years will remain the pain of, DB9, DB25, centronics, various SCSI types, PS2 Keyboard & Mouse, etc. The holy grain of a single connector (USB) to replace them all seemed impossible. We briefly had it: Then the idiots forgot what the "U" meant and we're now back at square one.
> that just seems asking for confusion
USB is just like HDMI in that respect - why label when you can confuse.
For reasons unknown, the sensible approach adopted decades back for the clear labelling of RJ45 Cat cables has been discarded with HDMI and USB.
Likewise the power adaptors also 'hide' their output specifications (a problem not unique to USB, I have similar problems with 12v .adaptors typically used on home routers, where it is a little more important to match adapter to equipment).
To keep my life simple, I've standardised on power adaptors, previously standardising on multi-port chargers that could deliver 5V 2.4A concurrently to all ports with cables to match. With the move to USB-C I've standardised on Apple's iPad 20W adaptors (5V 3A / 9V 2.22A) and cables. My thinking is if the device can't handle these power sources, it is the device manufacturer at fault, not the user.
However, with more devices being capable of drawing 30W, it seems my next standard will be a USB-C PD 3.0 specified charger.
So that drawer of miscellaneous chargers has been replaced by a drawer of low-power USB chargers...
Until a tipping point after OEMs and distributors have exhausted 80-90% of their stock, then charge a boatload to those lovely geeks who will still be supporting "legacy" systems and absolutely need older kit, assuming newer stuff is not actually compatible.
In this case, "end-of-life" means "cheap until decidedly NOT cheap."
Is this another mess where you can choose between a very short passive cable or a longer active cable that only works on one tunneling protocol? Or certain protocols and certain devices force data onto the 480Mbps wires? Are there going to be features that are dependent on whether it's plug A or C?
I don't have high hopes for old claims about THz wireless links, but it's sounding better with each new USB revision.
It's perfectly simple, a device with a USB-C connector on it can be one of the following:
USB4 Version 2.0
USB4 Version 1.0
USB 3.2 Gen 2x2
USB 3.2 Gen 2
USB 3.2 Gen 1
USB 2.0
The can be with or without Thunderbolt support as well, and includes older ports labelled as USB 3.1 or USB 3.0 which were in course renamed to the different generations of USB 3.2 for perfectly sensible reasons.
See? It's obvious! My elderly gran finds it a doddle to tell them all apart...
I've heard that they are going to make the naming simpler again.
The newest version will always be called USB latest.
Then the previous will be renamed to USB previous, then older, even older, really old, so old shouldn't be using.
So you know if you are using the latest ver.....
Will be simples
There are only four names required and half the name comes from the price:
1) Cheap, slow and never in shown on searches from Apple products.
2) Expensive, fast and supplied as standard only to reviewers.
3) Same component as (2) but cheap and out of stock.
4) Same component as (1), same price as (2) and in almost identical packaging.
> make the naming simpler again. The newest version will always be called USB latest.
ARGH!!! Yes yes yes. I wanna e-book reader. Kindles are all "All-new Kindle". Since the dawn of time? Only recently have they started listing the year "All-new Kindle (2016 release)". Only the latest patch on Kindle O/S tells you what hardware it is on (mine now says 10th generation, but the generation is rarely/never listed on Amazon). (Talkin' 'bout my generation!)
Sure, that's the device.
The cable however? Well..
That can be power only, or power and data. It can be 2W, or 10W or 20W or 100W. It can support 18 different speeds. It can be any permutation of any of those.
Of course, I'm simplifying. It could also be USB-A or micro-USB on one end, and USB-C on the other. More permutations.
The USB spec is a horrific anti-consumer nightmare that makes it impossible for any normal person to know whether plugging cable A into source B will allow the interactions with device C that they're hoping for. That's a fail.
USB has failed.
Is it even really a bus? I often wonder this.
I think of busses as something that can be passively expanded and devices will negotiate, like SPI for example. The requirement of active hubs to do that makes it feel to me that its not.
It's probably a misunderstanding on my end though...
>The USB spec is a horrific anti-consumer nightmare that makes it impossible for any normal person to know whether plugging cable A into source B will allow the interactions with device C that they're hoping for. That's a fail.
Same applies to HDMI cables and connectors...
And no one has mentioned USB Power Delivery...
Yeah I didn't even want to get into the cables, which are an even worse nightmare.
Adding 240W power delivery is going to cause some fires, as people use old USB-C cables they have lying about which have too thin of wires to handle the amperage necessary to charge a hefty laptop or power a monitor that also acts as a USB hub.
Not that the 'standardized' colors mean anything anymore... :\
At this point it feels like the companies need to be taken off the board & replaced with people who use it, or they put it under the control of another entity like the Linux Foundation because it really should've just been:
1- An active USB 5 cable spec that's made in collab with whatever the Thunderbolt manufacturers/implementers had planned.
2- Mandates all previously proposed features (Like VirtualLink or Latest HDMI) in USB-C Hosts, Hubs, and peripherals.
If it's more expensive then so be it, as customers looking for a cheaper option could stick with USB 3.
- - - - - -
Even if they have to fit in an additional 2 pins on the side to make it only run USB 5.0 on the plug recepticles that have those added contacts.
Don't forget Displayport over USB-C as well!
And proprietary USB-C docking station (e.g. Dell, Lenovo) where plugging in a latop by a different manufactorer will lead to it sort-of working but normally excluding the bits which are proprietary (such as the power button on the dock which turns on the laptop).
When one has, say, an external monitor attached to a laptop via a USB-3 (and an external docking station), how is the video transferred? As an uncompressed bitstream? Compressed bitstream? Instructions to a video chip in the docking station?
It's something I've never really thought about, but it occurs to me that once you're driving a couple of 4k displays, there's a lot of bits being sent *somewhere*.
(Question brought about by a recent installation of a 4k monitor which supports only 30Hz on this Dell laptop/dock combination, where a 2k monitor runs at 60Hz).
AFAIK, USB-C video signalling uses Alternate mode which repurposes the USB3 data links for use as a video link. In the case of HDMI, this is specified for HDMI 1.4b which would have the effect you describe. You'd probably get better results with USB-C --> DisplayPort.
This also means that the data speed falls down to USB2 which is mandatory and uses separate wires.
Thunderbolt multiplexes the video data with regular data so the effective available data rate depends on the video data rate. It's a much better system and I'm hopeful that all USB4 implementations will support Thunderbolt, which should not be a big problem since they use the same PHY. Thunderbolt is trademarked by Intel who only allow its use for certified (by Intel, of course) devices but it can work without being formally certified, as in some Ryzen 6800U laptops.
>how is the video transferred?
It depends...
Display over USB/HDMI is problematic. I've often had to resort to digging deep into the manuals to locate just which method, resolutions and refresh rates are supported by the display, the USB hub, and the laptop.
Generally, if you can use a direct SVGA (okay for 1080) or HDMI/Displaylink connection, do so, particularly if you want stable 4K and greater.
Display over USB/TB3 is great, I have one USB-C cable going from my TB3 dock to my laptop, it carries 125W power*, two 4k / 60Hz video streams, plus a standard USB-3 hub.
* a Dell "extension" - it will send 100W / 65 W / less as negotiated if a non Dell laptop /phone / anything is plugged in
A cable is a cable. It's a bit of wire with certain mechanical properties, mainly, the ability to transfer current.
Our technology allows us to modulate that current to transfer data, but that has nothing to do with the cable and everything to do with the bits the cable is plugged into.
So, what is the difference between an "active" and a "passive" cable, given that the cable isn't given the choice ?
I googled, and according to the product information of such a cable: "This cable incorporates an active chipset with signal boosting functions to provide reliable video and data information over a longer distance than a passive USB-C cable".
When I was a boy we had to make do with two cans and a string. None of this 'active' nonsense.
Active vs passive.
Active have a powered device within them to carry out a task, such as amplification
Passive have no powered devices within them
Other examples of active/passive devices.
Speakers:
Active speakers have a built in amp, require power.
Passive speakers have no amp, just the speaker and require an external amp.
"A cable is a cable. It's a bit of wire with certain mechanical properties, mainly, the ability to transfer current."
Actually, at these data rates it's a closely designed impedance matched transmission line. Even if the kit at both ends is impedance matched, an incorrectly designed cable can spoil the signal.
"USB-C will be able to carry both 80Gbps and 240 volts."
240 volts on something the thickness of current USB cables? That does not sound safe, even with very low current. What's the spec for that? What happens when a cable is damaged - there can't be anything like the insulation thickness you get on mains cables.
I believe that was a quantum joke – it collapses to a joke or not joke when read though in either state the humour content is elusive. If you got the non-joke version, well we are already up to 20v. I suppose it would be
possible to go higher but I imagine it would be limited to around 40/50v like PoE.
You're amusingly/worryingly wrong.
At higher frequencies, current tends to concentrate at the surface of a conductor*. This leads to an effective higher conductor resistance and consequent lower current and power handling capabilities.
* This is why multi-strand conductors are better than solid ones for high frequency currents, because there's relatively more surface area. But if you want to transfer power, low frequency is better.
240 V AC is a consequence of using AC for power transmission. Powering a hoover with 5 -18 V DC isn't a problem as battery powered ones demonstrate. Of course, to boil a kettle you need around 20 times the current, but batteries and big capacitors can give you that.
As more and more buildings get some form of generation (wind, solar, bio, etc.) and storage it makes more sense to go with the DC and avoid all the equipment and associated losses of going back to AC to drive all those DC appliances.
My better USB cables are thicker than low power mains cables. Maximum safe voltage is limited by the thickness and type of insulation. Maximum safe current is limited by the cross-sectional area of the conductor and the temperature at which the insulator softens. A low power device should will safely with thin conductors if there is some sort of current limit (like a fuse) to deal with failure conditions.
I like it! BOFH should have a lot of fun with this new standard.
"...sounds like your cable needs degaussing. Do you have any degaussing fluid handy?"
"Oh, you don't. Well no worry, it is similar to saliva. Just lick the end of the cable, that should solve the problem....permanently."
Kzzzzzzzrt!
As USB-C devices pick up cable capabilities from the chip in the cable, make that data user visible via an app. If someone can insert a cable into a Mac, PC, iPad or Android phone (iPhones aren't there yet) and simply run an application to query that chip it'll be easier to validate a cable. It won't help when buying something online, but at least it gives you some means to test that the cable you have to hand is able to do the job you have for it.
As a matter of fact, the 'About this Mac' function in MacOS already offers a very detailed assessment of whatever you plug in, including the capability of any PD device jacked in (it's how I found out that one USB-C PSU did not supply enough to my somewhat aged Intel MacBook), surely it must be possible to use that part in a specialised app, and on every platform?
Just an idea.
You need to set up a database, with each cable QR coded and kept in an acrylic tube. Just dump all the tubes onto the kitchen table and start up your app (you do have the app, don't you?); tap on the image of the master device (PC, laptop, DVR) and the slave (memory stick, actioncam etc). The app then shows a video of the table and uses AR to highlight which tube contains the cable you want.
It couldn't be simpler.
I disagree. Relying on unique connectors to identify cable function was never sustainable. Barrel plugs anyone? At least with USB, if you can plug it in you get some basic functionality and nothing's going to be cooked. Sure, you still need to know that you need the appropriate cable to, say, charge your laptop but it was ever thus. And at least with USB there's some prospect of automating the process. Window's "this device can work faster" leaves something to be desired but a wizard complete with pictures could be very useful for those that need some help.
Now, one thing that is a clusterfuck is the labelling but even that's been sorted out. Apparently the new standard is to label cables with the maximum data rate and power capacity. Two figures, and really all you need to know.
So far, not one gadget I have[1] which uses a USB C connector actually *needs* that connector - they could all work perfectly well with micro-USB (just for fun, my usual "USB C cable" is actually a short mini-USB to C on the end of an 'old' mini to A cable: at the time, cheaper than buying a long enough C to A).
If you see micro-USB you know what it may demand from the other end. See a C and you have go check the specs to find out if it is compatible - only to find out that it doesn't uses anything beyond old fashioned USB 2! What a waste of time.
But we have some people that demand C where it isn't needed (and where it would add cost), often because they "just threw away all the old cables" (citations available if required). Aargh.
[1] I'm aware that there are gadgets that do make use of the facilities, I just don't have a use-case for them (and, fwiw, neither do any of my old fellow CS alumni I met up with last week; just my sample set, yours may differ). Monitors all happy on VGA, HDMI, DP; don't do video enough to justify a superfast external drive; happily bumbling along with a few dozen MCU boards and blinkies, smattering of 'phones and tablets around the house.
This was the WHOLE PROMISE of USB, that it would be, well, universal, ffs.
It's got me cross enough to start randomly capitalising words. Never a good sign.
I suppose we should, at least, be grateful that they haven't introduced yet another form factor to the dozen or so that already exist, but good grief people.
There are a lot of utterly ignorant people here.
Oooo we have to buy loads of new cables.
No you don't, keep using your old cables for your old stuff, or get this, use the new cable for the new AND old stuff.
Ooo so confusing, yet another standard.
Yes just like before, how many of you actually noticed the different coloured usb ports? Yup, different specs and uses.
How many people still have chargers that have a USB A that they still use? Most of you? Thought so. Yet magically, you don't get really confused by that.
Seriously, if you can't manage a cable, then there is no hope for us as a species.
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