back to article General Motors charges mandatory $1,500 fee for three years of optional car features

Drivers in the US and Canada are in for a bit of sticker shock as General Motors has made three years of its OnStar subscription service mandatory in many new vehicles at a cost of $1,500. The little-noticed change took place in early June, the Detroit Free Press reported, when new GMC and Buick vehicles being sold in North …

  1. navarac Bronze badge

    Unwanted subscriptions

    Another unwanted sub - gouging cash almost like daylight robbery. Glad I'm not in N.America!

    1. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Unwanted subscriptions

      Features made to be hacked.

      I can think of many regions of the US where getting a jury to convict someone for hacking their own property would be near impossible.

      1. kain preacher

        Re: Unwanted subscriptions

        Unless it's a Nintendo product .

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Unwanted subscriptions

        "I can think of many regions of the US where getting a jury to convict someone for hacking their own property would be near impossible."

        A jury may not want to, but it turns into a Federal case when the charge is in violation of the DMCA anti-hacking/reverse engineering clauses and the jury can be overridden by a judge when the defendant admits to the hack.

    2. binary
      Alert

      Re: Unwanted subscriptions

      You can be in America but don't have to buy GM products

  2. alain williams Silver badge

    Other car manufacturers are available.

    Just say no & buy something else.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

      > Just say no & buy something else.

      As long as you still can.

      Because chances are everybody will do this at some point, the whole point being to make more profit without spending more money. "Mandatory options" like the steering wheel and a driver seat are the obvious way to go, and since they're mandatory you can charge as much as you want for them...

      Now somebody might wonder what's the difference between that and simply raising the car's price by that same amount. Well, it's that on paper the car seems to be much cheaper, thus much more attractive than it really is. $20k for a brand new mid-level car? Sounds great, and the salesperson will know how to sugarcoat the additional $20k of mandatory options...

      1. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

        This is why I have a motorcycle. I got screwed trying to get the ABS brakes fixed in my car, and my roommate in college got screwed $4,000 when they ran out of ammo for the parts cannon and found out it was a $1 relay after all. Did they refund him for all the parts they swapped out in place of actual troubleshooting? Are you daft?

        Not only is my bike easy to maintain, it doesn't have a ton of useless electronics. The only fancy thing is the windshield goes up/down with a switch.

        (Of course, I then completely went against all that by getting an electric bike, but I digress)

        1. ThatOne Silver badge
          Unhappy

          Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

          > This is why I have a motorcycle.

          Unfortunately there is no way motorcycle makers will remain on the side of the road weeping. They will find ways to do the same, and given more and more stuff is electronic they don't have to look too far.

          My bike was pure old time mechanics, carburetors and all, unfortunately it was destroyed...

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

            My '59 Pan laughs at all their latter-day gee-gaws. On her third ground-up restore as I type.

            Try restoring an old bike, you might like it. (Warning: It becomes addictive.)

            1. Jamesit

              Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

              Is there a way to fix the window on the master cylinder? I have no rear breaks right now, I have a Motorino electric scooter, it uses the same kink of breaks as a motorcycle. Thanks

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                Contact your local dealer for parts. Buy the OEM parts, avoid chinesium junk on the likes of flea-bay. You're talking about brakes here, which are too important to leave to chance. Spending a little extra to make sure it's the right part only makes sense.

                Judging by the question, and obvious answer, you're new to this kind of thing ... might want to ask the dealer to fit the new parts, too (shouldn't be more than an hour labo(u)r). Ask if you can watch. Some allow it, some don't.

                1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                  Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                  "Ask if you can watch. Some allow it, some don't."

                  Eek. Many big garages allow it, but very much against the mechanics' preferences for the most part. At the very least, tip the mechanic afterwards. Preferably offer beer up front. No-one wants someone looking over their shoulder while they work.

                  1. EricB123 Bronze badge

                    Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                    Hopefully the beer comes after hours.

                  2. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
                    Pint

                    Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                    Ex Brother-in-law did a stint in Kwik-Fit, he was asked to pour Slick 50 into a cars engine while he worked & the obnoxious gent insisted that he watch, which he was allowed to do from the observation window.

                    BIL made a BIG show of unscrewing the cap "piercing the seal" & pouring it in & then discarding the "empty" container. Customer satisfied drove away, while BIL fished out the pristine & full bottle from the trash for his own vehicle.

                    1. J. Cook Silver badge

                      Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                      .. I'm assuming that's partly why he's an Ex brother in law?

                      1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
                        Pint

                        Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                        He's a long long time ex brother in law.

                    2. jake Silver badge

                      Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                      How long did it take before he was shit-canned for pilfering and stealing from his customers?

                      It takes years to get a good reputation, seconds to lose it.

                      1. Martin an gof Silver badge
                        FAIL

                        Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                        Given that I know you are State-side, Kwik Fit is a UK-wide franchise chain specialising in drive-in changing of tyres, exhausts, brakes, batteries and some types of servicing. Many years ago I went into a branch in order to have a couple of new tyres on a fairly high-mileage car. After a few minutes taking the wheels off and faffing about, mechanic comes into the waiting room - which has a view of the "shop floor" to tell me that one of my 'shock absorbers' (dampers) is leaking and needs to be replaced. (and no mention of doing the other one at that end at the same time, by the way)

                        Thing is, I'd had that car serviced by a bloke I'd been using for perhaps five or six years at that point (and carried on using until he retired some 25 years later) and I knew for a fact - because I'd seen the removed parts and the clean, new ones - that both dampers at that end of the car had been changed just six weeks or so previously.

                        This didn't faze the Kwik Fit mechanic one bit. He just nodded and got on with re-fitting the wheels. "Oh, by the way, do you want us to fill the tyres with Nitrogen instead of air? It'll be an extra £<some amount>."

                        M.

                    3. Sven Coenye

                      Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                      He may have gotten his comeuppance for that one. Slick 50 was snake-oil of the worst kind. Not only did it not work as advertised - it did damage. (The magic ingredient was Teflon powder. The manufacturer claimed it would coat the cylinders and reduce friction, but Teflon doesn't work that way. All the particles did was gum up the oil passages.)

                  3. jake Silver badge

                    Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                    Reading between the lines, it's a kid with a small scoot. Most shops that repair this kind of thing will have no issues allowing a youngster to watch them replace a brake master cylinder fluid reservoir. Especially if the kid is polite, and knows where and how to use PleaseAndThankYou.

                2. Jamesit
                  Happy

                  Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                  Thanks jake, I'll do that, I'm not sure how to do that kind of work. Using the Flintstones method of stopping is hard on my shoes.

              2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                As a beginner, you would probably find it best to replace the entire master cylinder - it won't be expensive. Then bleed the brakes. Whole job might take an hour or two.

              3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
                Childcatcher

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                At the risk of being pedantic

                Vehicles have BRAKES.

                1. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

                  Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                  Minus one pedant point for letting kink slide.

                  1. jake Silver badge

                    Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                    Again, we don't do kink shaming here on ElReg. Play nice!

                2. jake Silver badge

                  Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                  It was probably a kid, and possibly someone for whom English is a second (third, fifth ...) language. Besides, we were obviously talking about a break, so I gave him (her?) the benefit of the doubt.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

            Motorcycles: the only industry that has never even considered planned obsolescence!

            1. MrBanana
              Joke

              Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

              The Japanese motorcycle industry planned to obsolete the British one - pretty much got away with it.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                I thought it was voluntary euthanasia by their spiffy manglement.

            2. Lon24

              Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

              The proposed extended London ULEZ is doing a good job of it. My 30 year old bike predates emission certification on the V05 so it would cost £12 a day to use even though its' emissions are below modern cars that don't have to pay.

              Yep, I could pay to have my bike certified but at considerable cost.

              Anybody outside the M25 who fancies a 500cc twin cylinder with only 18k on the clock might like to find a way of contacting me.

              1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                Whilst I don't approve of scrappage schemes, there's going to be a scrappage scheme your bike will likely be eligible for. Is it worth more than they'll be offering? If not, someone on benefits - pension, UC, etc - can submit a it to the scheme for you even if you're not eligible.

                If you really want to keep the bike, check if it actually meets the emissions standards required despite not being Euro 4 (or whatever) certified - if it's 'cleaner than permitted cars', maybe it is, or are permitted bikes on a different standard? You can apply to have the model registered as compliant, if it is.

                I wish people would stop complaining about the ULEZ _expansion_. Either remove the entire ULEZ - a bad idea, IMO - or expand it to the M25, because it's radically unfair and regressive as currently implemented. It's been set up in a way that excludes most of the rich suburbs, but includes all the poor areas in east London.

                1. ChrisC Silver badge

                  Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                  "It's been set up in a way that excludes most of the rich suburbs, but includes all the poor areas in east London."

                  That's one perspective on it. Another would be that it's been set up in a way that includes all of the ultra-rich central London areas, but excludes all the poor areas outside the north/south circulars...

                  "If not, someone on benefits - pension, UC, etc - can submit a it to the scheme for you even if you're not eligible."

                  Unless any new scrappage scheme offers significantly less onerous T&Cs than the last one TfL ran, then at best this suggestion would simply see the application rejectedfor failing to meet at least one of the necessary criteria (having owned the vehicle for x months prior to the introduction of the scheme), and at worst might see the OP charged with fraud.

                  1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                    Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                    "That's one perspective on it. Another would be that it's been set up in a way that includes all of the ultra-rich central London areas, but excludes all the poor areas outside the north/south circulars..."

                    That's not a perspective, unless you're looking through some kind of distorting lens. It simply isn't true. You can't see that if you look. The simple reality is that what you say is true of the west side, and completely untrue of the east side, where most of London's poorest areas are _inside_ the A406.

                    I could point you to a history of the 406 which explains exactly why this is - it's portions of two separate ring roads that were strung together instead of finishing both - but you don't seem to be very interested in facts that conflict with what the Daily Mail tells you.

                    "this suggestion would simply see the application rejectedfor failing to meet at least one of the necessary criteria (having owned the vehicle for x months prior to the introduction of the scheme), and at worst might see the OP charged with fraud."

                    Assuming the same rules, it's permitted - the application does not require the vehicle to be owned by the submitter. You are, once again, mistaken on a simple factual matter.

                    1. ChrisC Silver badge

                      Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                      "That's not a perspective, unless you're looking through some kind of distorting lens. It simply isn't true. You can't see that if you look. The simple reality is that what you say is true of the west side, and completely untrue of the east side, where most of London's poorest areas are _inside_ the A406."

                      So it simply isn't true, and I wouldn't be able to see if it I look, unless I happen to look at the west side of London, in which case it is true and I would be able to see it. OK, glad we got that sorted out...

                      "but you don't seem to be very interested in facts that conflict with what the Daily Mail tells you."

                      I wouldn't even wipe my arse on that abomination, so you're way, WAY, off the mark here.

                      "Assuming the same rules, it's permitted - the application does not require the vehicle to be owned by the submitter. You are, once again, mistaken on a simple factual matter."

                      Fair cop, I overlooked the note in the previously published rules which stated the application could also be made by someone living at the same address as the vehicle owner. However, that's still rather more restrictive than simply finding some random benefits claimant who'd be willing to apply on your behalf as your earlier comment implied could be a way around being personally ineligible, so I'd rather be mistaken through an over-cautious reading of the rules, than through an over-generous one as you've done here - my mistake isn't going to get someone into trouble, yours very much could do...

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

            > Unfortunately there is no way motorcycle makers will remain on the side of the road weeping. They will find ways to do the same

            No "will" - future tense - about it. KTM already fit all their bikes with the mechanics, electronics and switch-gear for quick-shifter and cruise control but you pay extra to have it enabled.

        2. Screepy

          Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

          @Gene Cash

          Subscription stuff is probably very close for motorcycles - particularly electric ones.

          I've had a Zero SR/F since November 2019.

          Now they've released the to Cypher III+ operating system you can now buy more range, or more power, or Sat Nav sync for the main screen, and some other stuff (reverse gear?)- it's all over the air updates as well

          So far it all looks like one time purchases but suspect it won't be long until a sub based features appears on their Cypher store.

          Still love my bike though :)

        3. Paulplex

          Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

          Don't be so sure that motorcycles are safe from this trend though. Zero electric bikes allow you to unlock for a subscription heated grips or seat, as well as a faster charge cycle and other features too.

          What makes me angry about it is the vehicle *already has* the features installed; they're there, taking up space and weight on your bike, ready to break and cause issues elsewhere you'd never have expected.

          Or worse; say you do splurge on all the subscription enabled accessories - what happens when the model is deemed to old to support by the manufacturer? A ten year old car is not an bad car but there are many that age and older driving from A to B. Will BMW still support a vehicle that's this old with a system that presumably is designed to "phone home" every so often, to check you've paid for that month's features?

          1. DrBobK

            Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

            BMW are pretty good at supporting their products. A few years ago, when I had a 1974 BMW R90S, BMW still had all the parts available new together with all the manuals. After I bought it I got it serviced at a BMW dealership and they replaced worn components of the braking systems with new parts. I think the bike must have been about 40 years old at the time. Slightly off topic, but compare that to support for phones!

            1. Stoneshop

              Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

              A few years ago, when I had a 1974 BMW R90S, BMW still had all the parts available new together with all the manuals.

              You may not have heard of BMW motorcycles' Baukastenprinzip, but you will have now. It translates to Construction Kit Principle, and means that parts that tend to be roughly the same across multiple models usually are unless there's a very good reason[0] that they should be different. Like the engine case, identical from the R45 to the R100. Or the front forks from an R65 fitting an R80ST. Occasionally you'll find that newer parts are different but still fully interchangeable, like the starter motor (old: Bosch, new: Valeo) or the flywheel that's lighter on post-1980 machines. All of that means a smaller numbers of parts to be kept in stock

              [0] Unlike Honda, where parts that could well be common between, say, an XL600 and an XR600 (same engine displacement) aren't for no discernible reason.

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                "Unlike Honda, where parts that could well be common between, say, an XL600 and an XR600 (same engine displacement) aren't for no discernible reason."

                No discernible reason at all. Except one's a single cylinder, and the other's a V-twin. But you're right, other than that there is no reason at all why the parts shouldn't be co-mingled.

                Parts is parts, right?

                If it don't fit, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyways.

                1. Stoneshop
                  FAIL

                  Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                  Except one's a single cylinder, and the other's a V-twin.

                  The XR600V (TransAlp) is a twin, the XR600 is a single.

                  1. Falmari Silver badge

                    Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                    @Stoneshop "XR600 is a single"

                    You missed the R, XR600R was the competition version of the XL600, production finished in 2000.

                    I had the XR650R which was noticeably different from the XL650, the XR was water-cooled.

                    Was hard to get the XR650R on the road in the UK, had to be inspected to get it registered (reg plate) for the road. Well hard for the dealer they sold it as road legal. So I wanted it registered, which took them 3 weeks of running around even though no changes had to be made to the bike. After that they said they would never sell one as road legal again.

        4. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

          "Did they refund him for all the parts they swapped out in place of actual troubleshooting? Are you daft?"

          If you let a mechanic play parts-roulette on your dime, you aren't getting a refund. But why would you do that in the first place? Anyone proposing to do so is telling you they aren't willing/able to track down the actual problem.

          I don't think I have ever changed something out without first verifying that it was the problem.

      2. Adrian 4

        Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

        Don't you have any consumer protection law to force price visibility in left-pondia ?

        1. Blank Reg

          Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

          Where I live in Canada the law is that the price they advertise is the price, they shouldn't be able to get away with mandatory hidden costs. So they can still have this mandatory "option", but it would have to be included in the advertised price and not tacked on afterwards

          1. gujiguju

            Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

            My guess is it will take a class action lawsuit for that price protection to take effect here in the US.

            (Canada has always been a more-evolved version of the US — totally obvious since the first time I visited; except the weather.)

          2. gryphon

            Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

            Very similar to restaurants.

            Have a look at the menu for The Ivy for instance.

            Teeny, tiny text at the bottom

            "A discretionary optional service charge of 12.5% will be added to your bill."

            For one thing discretionary and optional are a tautology. For another if it's automatically added in my opinion it's neither since most people will be too embarrassed to ask for it to be taken off.

            Not me of course. :-) Obviously I left a direct equal tip in cash since I believe the Ivy like many others impose an 'admin' charge on their own stuff if done within the whole bill.

            Wasn't my choice of restaurant in case of course.

            Just noticed they've also started adding a cover charge of £2 as well when I looked at a menu online.

            For heavens sake.

            This would be like adding an 'every time you switch the engine on there's a charge' in the auto industry to get back to the real topic.

            1. MrBanana

              Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

              Some restaurants only make it discretionary for 6 or more people, and 12% is actually not too extortionate, something I would probably pay anyway. Except when the service has been bad, and I have asked for it to be removed. I also object to paying it on drinks. No difference in service for opening a €20 bottle of wine compared to a €50 one, why should I pay an extra €3.75. When eating at the pub I buy, and pay for, the drinks at the bar, then take them to the table.

              The cover charge used to be for the bread that was brought to the table. I imagine they now tax you for turning up, then charge you extra for the bread.

              1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                When I choose to eat in a restaurant it's because I want someone else to serve me, instead of doing the work myself. Why, then, should I pay an additional "service charge", when that's what I'm paying the restaurant for in the first place?

              2. Adelio

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                I have never understand the "American" way of treating service staff.

                1. ALL staff should be paid AT LEAST Minimum wage.

                2. Staff cannot be charged for other things (Cloths etc) to get back some of this money.

                3. In my eyes Tips are NOT Mandatory they are discretionary and only should be paid if the CUSTOMER wants to.

                I live in the UK and tipping is becoming more common. But as far as i am concerned, It is something I Choose to do. No way would i tip unless I WANT to and i think the staff serve it.

                The staff should be paid a proper living wage by their employer. I have visited America once and I liked it but would i live there? No thanks,

                A healthcare system designed for the wealthy, a system where it is common for people to become bancrupt trying to pay for medical bills. Guns so common that having hundreds of people every week killed by them is thought of as common (and good).

            2. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

              Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

              `"A discretionary optional service charge of 12.5% will be added to your bill." For one thing discretionary and optional are a tautology.`

              No, discretionary modifies optional, so whether or not it is optional is at their discretion.

              1. CrackedNoggin Bronze badge

                Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

                Oh - clever that! So it's actually NON-optional.

                However, I think in that case it should be "discretionarily optional"

      3. jake Silver badge

        Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

        ""Mandatory options" like the steering wheel and a driver seat are the obvious way to go"

        Those two are usually the first to be replaced in any car I purchase. The factory offerings are built for everybody, thus they are comfy for nobody. They are also super easy to swap out.

        1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

          They are also super easy to swap out.

          Wait to see the Apple iCar where everything is soldered, including the steering wheel...

          1. Not Yb Bronze badge

            Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

            It's glued together, and you'll need this high power UV light fixture to glue it back together. Oh, and the car was transparent so they can glue it together at the factory, then paint it, and you'll have to remove the paint to get light to hit the new glue.

            Amazingly lightweight, but the gas tank requires refilling daily because it's too small for the car.

      4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

        "Because chances are everybody will do this at some point, the whole point being to make more profit without spending more money."

        It depends. All it takes is one manufacturer to realise that they can corner the market by not doing this.

    2. Mostly Irrelevant

      Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

      That's been true of GM for a long time, friends don't let friends buy GM vehicles.

    3. EricB123 Bronze badge

      Re: Other car manufacturers are available.

      Can you say "Helloooo, used Toyota"?

  3. EVP

    Never.

    n.t.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "These microtransactions only unlock access to capabilities already present in the vehicle."

    It makes one want to stop buying NEW from these companies. Let them sit on a glut of subscription inventory. If you live in an area with good transit give them a stiff middle finger or perhaps a backhanded archer's salute if that is your style and use public transit.

    Subscription features other than the radio / internet / opt in safety, is going too far.

    1. Phones Sheridan Silver badge

      I see there’s going to be a market for non-dealer activations following each vehicle service.

      1. SW10
        Alert

        We know what’s best

        non-dealer activations

        …instantly voiding your guarantee, your insurance, the resale value of the car

        Then followed by the car being instantly immobilised for “safety” reasons, because they’re only concerned for you and your family, obviously

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: We know what’s best

          Followed by non-dealer remobilisations.

      2. Stoneshop
        Devil

        Two words:

        "Green tractor"

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Two words:

          Clyde, my Percheron, is pretty green. You might say he's 100% solar powered .... and so was the manufacturing plant that he came from. He makes for a fairly good tractor, albeit a trifle slow and somewhat limited in capacity being just the one horsepower.

          So I fire up the 1915 Case traction engine to get real work done. Runs on dead trees[0] and water, not much greener than that :-)

          (Not as tongue in cheek as you might think ... John Deere is so bad that when attempting to restore a 55 year old tractor, the local dealership refused to sell me engine and transmission parts! Told me I was "stealing" from JD by having the gall to do my own work. So I called corporate to complain. They told me it was policy. Needless to say, I have sold all my JD kit, and will never purchase anything from them again.)

          [0] Runs best on old, recycled treeferns, but have you seen the price of anthracite recently? So I feed her a steady diet of scrap wood that would have been incinerated anyway.

          1. Stoneshop
            Pint

            Re: Two words:

            He makes for a fairly good tractor,

            Although you may have to work around the lack of a standard PTO shaft.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Two words:

              If you do manage to install a PTO shaft, he'll be moving very erratically.

    2. Potemkine! Silver badge

      It makes one want to stop buying NEW from these companies.

      It also makes one to find a bypass to activate those capabilities without having to go through the microtransactions. I'm sure there are forums where this is a hot topic right now.

  5. JassMan

    They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

    If something is mandatory it is not an option.

    IANAL but if they claim it is an option and stop your car working because you didn't pay, that is criminal abuse of a computing system.

    1. Phones Sheridan Silver badge

      Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

      Yeah, but you’re forgetting that we’re now Brexit’d and on the slippery slope to duplicating the US laws that give companies more rights than us consumers.

      1. Snowy Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

        Not even sure it is legal in the state?

        1. Phones Sheridan Silver badge

          Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

          Everything is legal in the states until someone sues and wins. And even then Big Business just keeps appealing until the other side dies first or goes bankrupt.

          1. gujiguju

            Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

            That’s not too far from the truth, actually.

            Though, the legendary Ralph Nader has been fighting for us consumers since about 1964…

            https://nader.org/blog/

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

              This is about the automotive world. If you think Nader has ever done the American Consumer any favo(u)rs in the car department, I submit you haven't done your due diligence on the subject.

              Long story short: Nader was a non-engineer who didn't even have a driver's license trying to make engineering decisions about the drivability of certain automobiles. He failed. Miserably.

              1. trindflo Bronze badge

                Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

                Dunno. I owned a Corvair (does that make me a survivor?) Felt the thing go up on two wheels once turning into a driveway at 5mph. I used to keep a concrete car-stop in the trunk to make it stable at highway speeds.

                I think warning the public about it was a service. That thing was pretty bad.

                1. jake Silver badge

                  Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

                  Having owned a couple of bone-stock examples (a 1962 and a 1966), I disagree. But don't take my word for it, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Criticisms_of_the_book

                  In the March 1963 issue of Mechanix Illustrated, Tom McCahill tried to get a 1963 Corvair to roll, at one point sliding sideways into a street curb, but could not turn the vehicle over.

                  The Texas Transportation Institute (TTl) Texas A&M University Research Foundation tested the car extensively and concluded "The 1960-1963 Corvair understeers in the same manner as conventional passenger cars up to about 0.4g lateral acceleration, makes a transition from understeer, through neutral steer, to oversteer in a range from about 0.4g to 0.5g lateral acceleration. This transition does not result in abnormal potential for loss of control. The limited accident data available indicates that the rollover rate of the 1960-1963 Corvair is comparable to other light domestic cars. The 1960-1963 Corvair compared favorably with the other contemporary vehicles used in the NHTSA Input Response Tests. The handling and stability performance of the 1960-1963 Corvair does not result in an abnormal potential for loss of control or rollover and it is at least as good as the performance of some contemporary vehicles both foreign and domestic.”

                  The first production run were the '60-'63 swing-axle models examined in the study. My '62 was in that group, and as a youngster I threw it around with wild abandon. It was fairly easy to drift, because the window between understeer and oversteer was so wide. Steering with the throttle was easy. The vehicle had no evil handling characteristics to speak of, although it was way under powered. Fun, safe(ish) kid's car with excellent (for the day) fuel economy. Keeping the tires properly inflated was important ... lower in front, higher in the rear. Just don't put modern radials on one without some suspension tweaks.

                  Nader had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. I personally have taken everything he says, about anything, with a grain of salt ever since. But I have to thank him for his hand in helping to create the skeptic that I am today.

                  Don't tell me, show me.

                  1. fromxyzzy

                    Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

                    This is a long (though appreciated) way of explaining that virtually all cars of the time were extremely unsafe in comparison with later cars, and the Corvair was not only not particularly dangerous but unfairly victimized in comparison with real death traps like the Beetle or similar Porsches of the time, any number of early 'economy' cars from Germany (NSU)/France (2CV)/Japan (Subaru) and even other American cars of the time.

                    The Corvair was chosen because it was specifically an American car made by the biggest carmaker in the world at the time, and everyone just accepted that the Beetle was a rattling tin can that would not survive an accident at highway speeds. Calling out a Volkswagen for being hilariously unsafe wouldn't have gotten Ralph on the evening news.

                2. jake Silver badge

                  Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

                  " I used to keep a concrete car-stop in the trunk"

                  In the trunk? How'd it get along with the engine?

              2. MrBanana

                Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

                Nader's stupidity regarding headlight design had the US literally living in the dark ages for a long time. When I brought my Mustang over to the UK I obviously had to swap the RHD headlights. Changing from the crapy sealed units to decent Hella H4 halogens, was night and day in comparison.

              3. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

                "If you think Nader has ever done the American Consumer any favo(u)rs in the car department, I submit you haven't done your due diligence on the subject."

                That's somewhat debatable. Clearly Nader was happy to lie, as in Unsafe At Any Speed, in what he perceived as a good cause. If lying about the Corvair got the US to implement much-needed vehicle safety standards, then he achieved something valuable. The US definitely needed a kick up the arse in that regard.

                I think there's a good case that Nader fibbed his way to a positive result, even if he was a complete liar and only interested in self-publicity.

      2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

        Bollocks. UK consumer law is stronger than EU minimums, and always has been. Suggesting that Brexit would allow it to be weakened is fud and paranoia.

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

      It's also illegal under US law. No doubt someone is already collecting signatures for a class action. Won't really matter because it will soon just be reclassified as essential.

      1. Furious Reg reader John

        Re: They might find the use of their wording problematic under UK law

        I think GM shut up shop in Europe and the UK, so it probably won't be a problem under UK law.

  6. VoiceOfTruth Silver badge

    Microtransactions?

    -> BMW's options include enabling heated seats for $18 a month, $8.50 for automated high beam switching, and more. These microtransactions

    Since when is $18 a month a "micro transaction"? Relative to the cost of the vehicle it may be, but $18 a month is not what I would call "micro".

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Microtransactions?

      For people who can afford the haberdashery known as "a brand new BMW", 18 bucks per month is probably so low as to be off the radar. Let's face it, BMW isn't targeting you with their toys.

      1. Citizen of Nowhere

        Re: Microtransactions?

        Of course not. But what happens once absolutely everything becomes "subscription only"?

        BMW luxury features are just the stalking horse for generalising the model in the market.

        Just as Adobe were the stalking horse in the software market and as the years pass fewer and fewer non-subscription options exist as the model takes a stranglehold on the market, including far less specialised markets than Adobe's. Of course, the tech-savvy can always find alternatives, but that really doesn't generalise. Most consumers when faced with a fait accompli, end up complying.

        "Your brakes operate at 50% of the optimal possible efficiency until you subscribe to the 'super-brake' feature.

        1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

          Re: Microtransactions?

          Get that message, drive into the back of a police car, super high dollar car, tell insurance company the car wouldn't stop, let the insurance company deal with it. All it'll take is a few million dollar payouts and the insurance will stop covering those cars with that disoption, and at least in the US you can't take delivery of a new car without insurance.

          1. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

            Re: Microtransactions?

            "at least in the US you can't take delivery of a new car without insurance"

            In some places this is true for all new cars. Where I live in the USA, it's only true if the car is financed.

      2. karlkarl Silver badge

        Re: Microtransactions?

        Possibly, but the opposite is:

        "I buy a new BMW because I am far too rich and important to fsck around with $18 transactions every so often and other poor people problems."

        So if it is not for the rich guys, and it isn't for us un-rich guys... who is it for?

        1. Neil Barnes Silver badge
          Holmes

          Re: Microtransactions?

          Given that I glanced at a motoring magazine the other day and saw a BMW being touted as excellent value at ninety thousand Euros (or was it a hundred and ninety?) it's obvious that the whole car industry is less about moving people from A to B and just as much a luxury 'look, I can afford this' industry as handbags and shoes.

      3. Korev Silver badge

        Re: Microtransactions?

        >For people who can afford the haberdashery known as "a brand new BMW", 18 bucks per month is probably so low as to be off the radar

        But in ten years time when the car is on its third owner, that $216 will be a lot more money.

        That's assuming BMW haven't turned off the infrastructure to support the subscriptions on that model....

    2. Mike 16

      Re: Microtransactions?

      I would love to know if they plan to have something akin to "Surge Pricing" for heated seats.

      That is, in the winter it will be $18/mo for the heated seats to work, while in the summer, it will be $20/mo to allow you to turn them off.

    3. Sgt_Oddball

      Re: Microtransactions?

      I thought BMW had been doing this sort of thing for years? Specifically in relation to indicators (turn signals for those who allow the brakelights to do the same... Which is still a horrifying thought if you have a light out). I mean when was the last time you saw one being used correctly on a BMW?

      1. spireite Silver badge

        Re: Microtransactions?

        Lately, I'm not seeing many BMWs brake for traffic either - that's possibly also a subscption option

        1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

          Re: Microtransactions?

          They seem to get on their phones pretty quickly on the autobahn... there doesn't seem to be a concept of slowing early for traffic in front, just charging up at 250kph and slamming the anchors on because the car in the outside lane has the temerity to be passing someone at a mere 150kph.

          I do wonder how many brakes, discs, and tyres these drivers get through. Perhaps they're on a subscription service too?

      2. Alex Stuart

        Re: Microtransactions?

        Audi has replaced BMW in that meme for a good few years now.

        1. Peter2 Silver badge

          Re: Microtransactions?

          AUDI: Amazingly Unsafe Driver Inside?

          1. bpfh

            Re: Microtransactions?

            BMW: Blinker-Unaware W*nker?

            1. bpfh
              Pint

              Re: Microtransactions?

              Oh my, that makes BUW. Please give me some more caffeine before I start hitting up the post-arbeit bierfest!

              1. bpfh

                Re: Microtransactions?

                Roses are red,

                Violets are blue,

                There are no turn indicators,

                on BMW's

                Better?

        2. MJI Silver badge

          Re: Microtransactions?

          Had one last night, he nearly had a Land Rover squishing him

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Regional data centres

          At least Audi put a warning on a lot of their cars:

          TFSI I assume stands for "This F****r Seldom Indicates"

    4. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Microtransactions?

      Automated high beam switching - How does that differ from normal driver operation On & Not Off!

    5. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Microtransactions?

      "Since when is $18 a month a "micro transaction"? Relative to the cost of the vehicle it may be, but $18 a month is not what I would call "micro"."

      In the comments under another article, somebody pointed out that there are aftermarket heated seat pads for $25. Another method might be to look for a third party "interface" box that connects to the heating coils in the stock seats while using a control box and power connections separate from the factory wiring loom. I have seen places such as Alibaba selling main control boards to convert those rental scooters that companies were littering big cities with. While it might be against the law to reverse engineer software lock-outs, I would like to know if accomplishing the same thing by unplugging the seat's heater from the car and connecting it instead to a non-OEM controller would be ok. At least in the US, it's been ruled that auto makers can't void warranties if a problem is unrelated to the modification an owner makes. As long as the controller doesn't set the car on fire, injure the person in the seat or melt down the electrical system, it should be fine.

  7. vincent himpe

    milk the cow

    That is what manufacturers are gunning for : milking the cow. Soon there will be a day where even furniture will be on subscription. Wanna sit on the chair to eat breakfast ? Pay to retract the huge screw sticking out of the middle of the seat. Pay per minute. Don't pay in time and the chair will literally screw you.

    1. Georgski
      Trollface

      Re: milk the cow

      No-one here wanted to see your porn folder thanks

      1. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: milk the cow

        Are you sure?

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: milk the cow

        Hey, play nice! This is ElReg ... no kink shaming here.

        1. Korev Silver badge
          Gimp

          Re: milk the cow

          You forgot the icon

      3. bpfh
        Angel

        Re: milk the cow

        We will be the judge of that.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: milk the cow

          "We will be the judge of that."

          Don't be silly. TINW.

          1. bpfh
            Joke

            There Is No We

            Lenin is spinning in his mausoleum

  8. jake Silver badge

    Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

    BMW, Toyota, GM ... who else wants to be on the list?

    As a side-note, my Dad (in his late 80s) is looking for what he calls "the last new car I'll ever buy". He's got a whole lot of cash burning a hole in his pocket, and is looking for a long-distance touring car. He just called and asked if it was true about GM. When I replied "affirmative", he said "Damn, there goes the Z06".

    Are you listening GM? It's not about the money, it's the principle of the thing.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

      I'm about 10 years younger. I think I've already bought my last car. I don't need to do much mileage these days and the newer stuff is loaded up with crap I don't want let alone don't want to pay for.

      1. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

        Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

        How long will manufacturers support the tech that's in cars anyway? Phones and other tech we replace every few years and they fall out of support, so will the built in sat navs get map updates for a decade or more? Or will the built in tech become useless, and we'll end up using our mobiles again?

        1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

          "will the built in sat navs get map updates for a decade or more?"

          Er. Yes? We've had built in satnavs longer than that.

          I sort of agree with your general thrust, though. The satnav on my phone is upgraded when I get a new phone. The one in the car remains old tech even though it updates the maps.

          1. Miko

            Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

            The satnav software on my Yaris has updated its look quite a bit since I got it. Seems to work a bit quicker, too.

            The touch interface is not great, though.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

              "The satnav software on my Yaris has updated its look quite a bit since I got it. Seems to work a bit quicker, too."

              Ok, but is there any guarantee that updates will continue to be available? Lots of tech has gone away due to phone companies dropped support for 2G/3G service that those gadgets relied on. Since the car is so old, updated hardware is unlikely. When cell phones first came out, some car companies fitted them as an OEM option. I know somebody with a BMW that still runs fine and looks good, but the phone has no network to connect to anymore. He could take it out, but would then have an unsightly hole where it used to be. I don't think that the cover kits are still around if you want to take the phones out now.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

          "Or will the built in tech become useless, and we'll end up using our mobiles again?"

          Will the custom parts be available 10 years down the road when you go to sell your car and want to fix up the little things so you can get top money? I wouldn't touch a Ford EV due to the knob embedded in the screen. It could be possible that a funky looking screen that's a "universal fit" can be bodged in years down the road, but where will you get a screen like they're are installing when new? I think the displays will be one of the major downfalls of cars from this era.

          1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

            Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

            Why do people say this sort of thing instead of having a look on Ebay? What you're asking for already exists in many different forms. There isn't yet a direct replacement for the thing Ford released, what, this year? But you can already buy replacements for other such things that have been around a little longer.

            It's clear that if there's any demand at all, someone will make the part. Sometimes it seems like they'll make stuff even if there's no conceivable demand!

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Just another manufacturer to ignore for the duration.

      ""Damn, there goes the Z06"."

      I don't think I'd find a Corvette to be a good long distance touring car. I used to own a Buick Century that I bought from my mom for $100. It's a very boring POS four door sedan, but with the V6 and moderately squishy suspension, it was like driving a sofa. The mileage was really good on the highway as well. Ultimately, too many little things were broken that couldn't be replaced that when a head gasket let go, it had to be put down.

  9. TeeCee Gold badge

    Same old...

    Just like old skool BMW pricing. In theory they were sensibly priced, in practice even the Spartans would have bitched at the equipment level you theoretically[1] got for that price. Actual price to get something that looked like the adverts was always a good 10-20% more.

    The only difference now is that modern tech enables them to build everything in and only switch on what you pay for. Now, this makes no difference at all to the purchaser of a new vehicle, but suddenly you can flog options to secondhand purchasers, which is a whole new can of wormsrevenue stream.

    [1] Yes, theoretically. Nobody ever bought one like that. For a start it would have been worth sod-all a year later, as hair-shirted masochists who want a secondhand BMW are rare things.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Same old...

      "as hair-shirted masochists who want a secondhand BMW are rare things."

      Not that rare. Check out the race track near you :-)

      I don't race BMWs, too spendy. Unless you put an LS in it. ::yawn::

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Same old...

      Really I am on my 4th bmw the newest I bought was made 9 years ago.

      I like them as cars as they are comfy reliable and not that expensive to keep on the road

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Same old...

        Same here

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Spotted the BMW marketing department

          I guess they got bored of all the "this sucks" postings...

  10. DS999 Silver badge

    Given that the US didn't make 100K cars last week due to a lack of chips

    The low supply / high demand put automakers in the catbird seat for now. Let's see if they're able to make this bad idea stick once the new car lots are full again!

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Given that the US didn't make 100K cars last week due to a lack of chips

      They still haven't worked out that if they didn't put so much chip-based crap into them they could have sold 100k more cars.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Given that the US didn't make 100K cars last week due to a lack of chips

        I've noticed a trend, at least here in the uk, to leave the colour out of the paint job. Grey cars that look like only the undercoat and final gloss finish has been applied. I wonder if that's a cheaper option? I doubt it, since one I saw today was a Porche. They probably charge extra for that option ;-)

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Given that the US didn't make 100K cars last week due to a lack of chips

          That fake primer-grey is a standard paint option that you can choose if you have the car built for you. It seems to be well liked among Honda drivers, but I've seen it on most makes and models.

  11. Mostly Irrelevant

    I'm pretty sure that mandatory subscriptions are illegal by Canadian law. They can increase the price of the car if they like but it's not a separate line item it's just part of the vehicle cost and they'd have to advertise that higher price.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    So you pay the same as everyone else?

    So you pay the same as everyone else regardless of how much or little you use the features?

    I had no idea the US had embraced Socialism so warmly.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: So you pay the same as everyone else?

      You spelled capitalism wrong.

      1. gujiguju

        Re: So you pay the same as everyone else?

        HAHAHA.

        Well. Played. Sir.

  13. WingNuts
    Alert

    "Would you like the Hood Release option on your new car?"

    I can also see this running headlong into DRM and Right to Repair. You can tinker, but if you hack your head unit to enable your seat warmers, they'll swear out a warrant for your arest for theft of services - after disabling your vehicle remotely. To use something physical, like a seat heater. Maybe you can use those optional services "for free" if you agree to anonymized location tracking!!

    THAT'S the ticket!

    1. Giles C Silver badge

      Re: "Would you like the Hood Release option on your new car?"

      If I remember correctly the Audi A1 came without a bonnet catch, the only way to gain access was through a flap on the front which allowed you to top up screen wash and other fluids.

      To gain access to the engine that rewired a set of spanner’s….

      1. ICL1900-G3

        Re: "Would you like the Hood Release option on your new car?"

        Who is Spanner? What does he have to enable access?

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: "Would you like the Hood Release option on your new car?"

          No keep him locked up, saves the Tracy brothers some work

      2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

        Re: "Would you like the Hood Release option on your new car?"

        TBF, my old MGF required (multiple) spanners to get to the engine, and that didn't have any of the Audi's excuses.

        1. Not Yb Bronze badge

          MG

          Never met anyone who drove an MG, and wasn't on a first name basis with a mechanic (or was one).

          I think it's a requirement they put in the sales material.

          1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

            Re: MG

            Unless you took it to a specialist, the F was a perfect car for demonstrating how little most mechanics know or care about how cars work. They mostly do a few jobs they know very well, without ever engaging brain.

            I had to fix it myself because it was such a nightmare to work on that the specialists would have wanted more than it was worth just to do a few basics. Who designs a car so a brake refurb is an engine-out job?

  14. Paul 87

    The worrying part will be that once this is accepted, the next part will be that you're unable to sell the care on to anyone, without paying the dealer "administration fees" to transfer the software licence, or even be unable to transfer it at all.

  15. david 12 Silver badge

    Options were always compulsory

    It was part of the dealer model for GM from the 1920's.

    General Motors was a motor company that joined up with some coach builders ('body by Fischer' in the USA, Holden in AUS). Dealers finished the vehicle by adding the equipment that wasn't provided by the coach builder or the engine builder. Things continued to be called 'options' even after they became standard equipment, because the dealer contracts included dealer payments for 'options'.

  16. DevOpsTimothyC
    IT Angle

    How fast is the data connection?

    I noted that the features included unlimited data and Wi-Fi hotspots. With OnStar costing $1500 for 3 years it equates to $41.67/month.

    My question is what's the internet speed aka how does that compare to other means of connecting to the internet.

    Here in the UK a noticeable minority have ditched DSL / Cable etc for unlimited data plans with their mobile phone acting as a hotspot.

    1. Down not across

      Re: How fast is the data connection?

      Here in the UK a noticeable minority have ditched DSL / Cable etc for unlimited data plans with their mobile phone acting as a hotspot.

      At least there still is DSL option. In some places (Finland for example) copper phone lines have been mostly ripped out so if you live bit more rural your only telephony/intenet option is mobile.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: How fast is the data connection?

      "Here in the UK a noticeable minority have ditched DSL / Cable etc for unlimited data plans with their mobile phone acting as a hotspot."

      For some that might work but I like having my mobile as a backup to the cable internet connection at home. I do so much work via the internet these days that funneling everything through one provider could be disaster (or just very expensive in lost income and pissed off customers). I don't use data on the phone very often, but I can use it as a hot-spot if I need to and just suffer with the slow speed.

  17. hayzoos

    Already bought my last vehicles

    I have a 1996 Ford F-150 purchased over 10 years and 100,000 miles ago. It is spartan. I will continue to maintain and repair as needed, I do most of the work myself. I put it to work as a truck frequently enough to keep it.

    I more recently purchased a 1987 Chrysler 5th Avenue which was stored for 24 years. It is most definitely not spartan.

    Neither vehicle has the capability of tracking, having "options" enabled or disabled, or being remotely accessed.

    I have already decided years ago, I will not buy a newer vehicle which relies so much on computerisation. The truck is bad enough with an E4OD transmission, but I can handle that. I could handle hacking newer vehicles, but I just cannot motivate myself to do it, nor relish the thought of a DMCA issue.

    1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: Already bought my last vehicles

      I also have bought my last vehicle TTBOMK, while it has some chippery in it & a few other nice fripperies.

      Body is sound, I put a remanufactured engine her & most parts are commonplace across a range of similar vehicles that share a mostly common BOM.

      On-star is out as it had the old CDMA hardware that wasn't upgraded to the 3G network that's being phased out in favor of presumably 4G.

  18. ecofeco Silver badge

    Actually, no. No I won't

    Why won't I? Two words: goodbye GM.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Actually, no. No I won't

      GM is two words (sorry)

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As cars get more and more gizmos

    I am happy to stick with my 10 year old non-connected but fully optioned daily.

    A new car was planned but priorities have changed.

  20. Grunchy Silver badge

    I have OnStar

    I have 2002 Eldorado ETC with OnStar, you know, the old analog cellular network that was obsolesced back awhile ago. I never paid a nickle to those guys. If I get into a wreck on the highway perhaps I’ll be able to use my regular cell phone to call for help? I don’t think I’m liable to buy GM nuthen’ if this is what they’re up to (and besides — the Eldorado still works good! Don’t care about new cars thanks.)

  21. drankinatty

    Goodbye GM

    The arrogance of automakers knows no bounds. From the "Funny-Money" world that thinks a new 3/4 ton Duramax pickup is now worth $90K, an additional $1500 charge for something you do not want and won't use -- WTF? I guess there are suckers born every minute, but this is just ridiculous. I wonder if the charge is related to the 2024 mandate that vehicles will provide telemetry back to the manufacturer? Pass the cost of a federal mandate on to the consumer under the misleading guise of a fixed cost for an optional service? (back to the born every minute comment) Good lord.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Goodbye GM

      For well under 90K, I could take a junkyard 1975 F-250 and turn it into a pretty much bullet-proof general purpose 4X4 pickup truck that would be show-worthy ... except I'd put her to work as soon as she was done.

      She'll be due for her second restoration in a dozen years or so :-)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Goodbye GM

        for $90K I can provide you with 2 T-34 ready to roll...

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Goodbye GM

          "for $90K I can provide you with 2 T-34 ready to roll..."

          Delivered?

  22. Auntie Dix
    Mushroom

    GM's Thanks for Its 50-BILLION-DOLLAR Government Bailout?

    The U.S. Government lost $11.2 BILLION on its bailout of General Motors.

    GM's CEO should be hanged on live TV.

    1. herman

      Re: GM's Thanks for Its 50-BILLION-DOLLAR Government Bailout?

      The 11ty billion Obama lost on GM is chump change compared to what Biden lost in Afghanistan.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: GM's Thanks for Its 50-BILLION-DOLLAR Government Bailout?

      "GM's CEO should be hanged on live TV."

      The politicians should be hanged. They have this odd belief that some companies are "too big to fail" without ever putting that belief to scientific testing. The bar keeps getting set lower all the time as well. This is a government that foreclosed on a brothel and couldn't make a go of selling booze and negotiated affection. The place could have paid for itself just by the patronage of a President's son or two.

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: GM's Thanks for Its 50-BILLION-DOLLAR Government Bailout?

      "The U.S. Government lost $11.2 BILLION on its bailout of General Motors."

      The US government also bailed out Chrysler which has passed through several foreign owners since then. Stellantis still makes cars in the US, but the headquarters is in Amsterdam. The US "Big 3" are the "Big 2", Ford and GM.

  23. T. F. M. Reader

    If Microsoft made cars

    Remember all those jokes of 20-25 years ago about cars Microsoft would make if they applied their design principles to the task?

    Guess what: you are living it.

    1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge

      Re: If Microsoft made cars

      wait for Apple, it will shame GM

  24. Trigun

    This has been happening in the car industry for a number of years and the only thing to do is to vocally criticse this practice at every turn and boycott each manufacturer as they do it.

    If this isn't stamped on you will see if in more and more areas involving technology: Want to do a full washing cycle at 90 degrees in your washing machine? That'll require a license addon costing £30 a year.

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Want to do a full washing cycle at 90 degrees in your washing machine? That'll require a license addon costing £30 a year.

      That's just wasting money, and possibly mixing units. Or just me not really paying attention to washing machines with a boil-wash option.

      Your new energy saving washing machine will cost you £500. In order to help save the planet, your machine will need to connect to your 'smart' meter and Internet connection. The menu will allow you to pay between £3.50 to £7.50 per load, with an additional IWIN (I Want It Now) based on current electricity generation mix.

      So if you're on a '100% renewable' tariff, and the weather's like this-

      https://gridwatch.co.uk/Wind

      minimum: 0.925 GW maximum: 1.677 GW average: 1.241 GW

      You'll be charged extra because-

      https://gridwatch.co.uk/Ccgt

      minimum: 16.532 GW maximum: 17.906 GW average: 17.507 GW

      You're actually greenwashing your clothes with filthy gas. And if you thought you were smart by connecting your 'cold' water inlet to your solar-thermal system and using 'free' hot water, we're measing intake temperature and know.

      (One of life's little mysteries is why appliance makers did away with hot inlets, and why solar-thermal roof options aren't promoted more given the energy used by homes to heat water. A combination of PV and thermal can supply 'free' hot water and store energy for a whole lot less than a highly flammable and toxic PowerWall. And I guess if you had a seperate really hot water tank, you could make tea or cofffee from it without needing an electric kettle. I guess water quality might be an issue, if that's left to stand for a while.)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > One of life's little mysteries is why appliance makers did away with hot inlets

        Apparently because modern machines use so little water the machine is full before the water is hot, unless the boiler is right next to the machine.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Yeh, I guess it's also easier/cheaper production-wise to have a single inlet and heater to get water to say 30C. Dual feed I guess would need a mixer that could take hot water at 60C and mix with cold till it hits 30C.

          1. Martin an gof Silver badge

            The last washer we had with dual inlets (about 15 years ago) didn't make best use of them. When it was filling for the "hot" part of the cycle, it opened them both at the same time, and because of the wonderful way many UK houses are plumbed, the cold was direct from the mains while the hot was from a tank in the attic, so probably about 75% of the water entering the machine was cold anyway, even if I ran the tap adjacent to the machine to make sure there was hot in the pipe.

            I measured the consumption, and found there was very little difference on a standard 60C "cotton" wash between all-cold and cold-hot filling. Somewhere under a hundred Watt-hours or so on a cycle which took (IIRC) something like 1.2kWh, so less than 10%. At the time we were averaging two full wash-loads a day (young children) so I had plenty of opportunity to measure.

            The other part of the argument is that "biological" washing powders apparently don't like being hit with high temperatures, and even on a 60C cycle, the machine spends a lot of time at or below 40C to allow the powders to work, before heating to 60C.

            Of course nowadays many houses have mains-pressure hot water as well as cold, so the first point is moot. Our current house also has a DHW circulation system, so even without manual intervention there is nearly always hot water within a pint or two of every outlet. Our DHW is part-heated (all-heated these last few days) by solar. We don't use biological powders and do most of our washing at 60C, so a "hot fill" machine probably would save us money... but they are like hen's teeth these days.

            On the other hand, the dishwasher we bought last year, while it only has one inlet, specifically says that it's happy to be hooked up to a hot supply. Apart from the 15-minute rinse-only cycle, every cycle heats the water, so a couple of quid's worth of parts (compression T, appliance connector) and 20 minutes of time could potentially save me a little bit of money.

            M.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "One of life's little mysteries is why appliance makers did away with hot inlets, and why solar-thermal roof options aren't promoted more given the energy used by homes to heat water"

        I've looked at that and it depends on how much optimally facing roof you have. Electricity is far more flexible and it's quite possible to dump any excess production into a hot water tank or thermal battery. There is an efficiency hit as a downside. The evacuated glass tubes for heating water are much more efficient. If you have the room on the roof, they can be a big money saver. If you have lots of room for them, heating a home in the winter isn't that difficult with excess solar PV adding itself. My plan is to go with solar PV initially and then have a look at solar hot water second. If I buy the lot next to mine and build a workshop on it, I'll have both and plumb the foundation for radiant heating using solar heated water/glycol.

  25. trindflo Bronze badge
    Coat

    I'll be arsed!

    "BMW's options include enabling heated seats for $18 a month".

    It had to be said.

    Mine's the one with the Corvair keys. Please tell security not to call the fire department right away if there's a sudden black cloud and occasional gouts of flame; I should be gone reasonably soon.

  26. bpfh
    WTF?

    This needs to stop.

    IT angle: IBM and HP had a history of providing mainframes or minis and then deactivating functionalities like RAM or CPU, and you could activate extra functions - now this could be explained if the equipment was rented rather than outright purchased…. But there must be laws about when buying items outright with installed equipment but having it software locked out, like auto beam adjustment of heated seats for BMW… and if the product is pre-installed and not activated on the pretext “your car does not have the option”, just because it makes manufacturing easier only having one version of a specific “thing” that gets bolted on the car, rather than different variants with or without that “thing”: I would bet a quid against a pound of sh*t that you will still have paid for that option in the overall price of the car, as the manufacturer will not give you something that was not balanced out on the books on the off chance that you activate that feature…

    As for 1500 dollars for 3 years of service, if the service is not activated then forcing you to pay for it anyway sounds like a court case for some variation of fraud… and what the heck added value product can justify 1500 bucks? Heck, even Tesla’s advanced connectivity for 3 years costs less than 1/3rd of that…

    1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: This needs to stop.

      Wait until a module on a non-subscribed option throws a error code requiring it to be repaired\replaced before the car will start again.

  27. MJI Silver badge

    GM still make cars?

    Around here they are now Peugeots with different badges on.

  28. Wade Burchette

    Dealerships are doing this too

    Two months ago I went into my local dealership to custom order a custom Camry hybrid. The dealership insisted on a deposit -- which I didn't mind -- and $2000 in aftermarket extras, such as LoJack and nitrogen air in my tires. The dealership would not budge on these high-profit items. So I walked out. I called another dealer further away, and they ordered the car without any dealer extras. And they are throwing in free oil changes for life. The first dealer called me later, and I made it clear just how bitter I was over that $2000 fee.

    1. RobThBay

      Re: Dealerships are doing this too

      Nitrogen in car tires. Some marketing twit probably got a huge bonus for dreaming that one up.

      The nitrogen fad seems to have (finally) vanished around here.

      1. herman

        Re: Dealerships are doing this too

        Hmm, I explained to some poor sod that 80% pure Nitrogen is otherwise known as air.

      2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

        Re: Dealerships are doing this too

        "Nitrogen in car tires. Some marketing twit probably got a huge bonus for dreaming that one up."

        ISTR there was actually some perfectly good reason for race teams doing it in one specific situation, and it had nothing to do with the tyres, and everything to do with practical factors like the availability of compressed gas cylinders or some such*. Then people observed them using nitrogen and cargo-culted the hell out of it. The chains providing services for suckers followed that.

        *I don't really remember what it was; everything I can think of now makes no sense.

      3. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Dealerships are doing this too

        "Nitrogen in car tires. Some marketing twit probably got a huge bonus for dreaming that one up."

        The real requirement was that the air used to fill the tires needs to be dry so it doesn't corrode the tire pressure modules inside. Using bottled Nitrogen is an easy way to do that if you want to be lazy and not fit dryers to your compressed air lines. There is the exotic sales aspect too which is a load of dingos kidneys.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Dealerships are doing this too

      "The dealership would not budge on these high-profit items."

      I was waiting for my car to have new airbags installed as part of a recall and visited a couple of dealers in the complex to look at new cars. One dealer had "paint protection" and the VIN numbers etched on the glass of all of their cars at a fat added price. I asked a sales person about that and was told every car they sell has those because of how important the dealer feels they are. I told him they have permanently lost me as a customer. The same would go for pin-striping, undercoating or any other pure profit snake oil. The more useless things they add to the price makes it that much more viable to go further out to a deal that doesn't do those things. You still need to be on guard when you get in front of the Finance Manager where the really high priced things are pitched.

      1. Martin an gof Silver badge

        Re: Dealerships are doing this too

        Bought a second-hand car a little while back that came without a spare wheel (it had been supplied new with a tyre inflation kit). I was perfectly happy to pay for a spare wheel and the toolkit which goes with it, but the dealer wanted me to buy the overpriced hold-all full of polish and cloths and the "paint and fabric protection pack" which was part of the deal.

        In the end I paid for the snake oil, and they threw in the tyre for "free". I'm sure there's some commission or something which means the deal made sense to them, but all it meant to me was that I got the tyre for something like 50% of the list price and got a bag full of car shampoo and microfibre cloths into the bargain. I have no idea what they did to the car before I took delivery, but the seats still stain quite well and the paint dulls over time so I'm happy sticking with the description of "snake oil".

        M.

        1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          Re: Dealerships are doing this too

          They probably had the wheel sitting around anyway, and the cleaning stuff was the highest commission item in the right price range.

  29. KBeee

    Being a Tight Old Git, I'd never buy a new car anyway. I can't stand the thought of throwing away about £5000 in depreciation on the drive from the dealer to home.

    I'd rather buy a car 1 or 2 years old with low milage. Of course this is for buying a car, not leasing or PCH etc.

    The way the price of second hand cars has gone, the one I bought nearly 4 years ago has gone back up to nearly the same price as I paid for it!

  30. herman

    Sale of Goods Act

    Check the local Sale of Goods Act for your state/province. In any sane state, it is illegal to charge for something that will not be delivered.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Sale of Goods Act

      "In any sane state, it is illegal to charge for something that will not be delivered."

      So where you live, cosmetics don't exist? How about scented deodorant? Room fresheners that claim to make the place "smell like the woods" ... or ocean, or stream, or wildflowers, or whathaveyou ... How about clothing that allows you to "look years younger", or somehow magically makes you slimmer?

      Does eating fast-food in your jurisdiction somehow make you hip? Does driving a sports car at age 90 REALLY pull in all the hot chicks? Does doing all your back-to-school shopping at your local mega-mart really make your kid the envy of all his/her classmates? Does drinking Duff beer draw more hot chicks than the sports car, as demonstrated by the athlete of your choice during commercial breaks?

      Look around you before making such sweeping statements.

    2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      Re: Sale of Goods Act

      Why do people think they can just imagine what the law is, rather than looking it up?

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Sale of Goods Act

        "Why do people think they can just imagine what the law is, rather than looking it up?"

        If they did that, the cop shows wouldn't be as funny.

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Sale of Goods Act

      "Check the local Sale of Goods Act for your state/province. In any sane state, it is illegal to charge for something that will not be delivered."

      Easy enough gotten around. The service is provided whether you want it or not. You just wind up without a choice.

  31. Ghostman

    For several years-

    I've been thinking about starting a business that takes older cars and repair/restore them to a "like new" condition. No showroom stuff, but good dependable, derivable, safe vehicles you would want your teenage daughter to drive each day.

    About the only changes I'd make standard is all wheels have disc brakes, an EFI system for better gas mileage and emissions, bluetooth sound system, and better seats.

    late 50, 60, and most 70 vehicles would be optimal.

    Price it comparable to a new sedan, with a decent warranty, and you could make a killing.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: For several years-

      I looked into doing just that about 25 years ago.

      Liability insurance said no.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: For several years-

      "About the only changes I'd make standard is all wheels have disc brakes, an EFI system for better gas mileage and emissions"

      When you get into things like brakes and emissions, you open up a big can of worms if you want to make modifications. It's no problem to put in a modern head unit and nicer seats, but in a CARB state (US, California Air Resources Board mandates), any mods to the emissions system will cause you to be fined if you don't have the changes certified by the State, and good luck with that. Change out the brakes and there is an accident, you are up a creek.

      Besides the mods that could be a problem, concentrating on just a few models so you can process them efficiently sounds like a great idea. You'd need to do a deep dive into the costs and what the car would sell for afterwards.

    3. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      Re: For several years-

      That concept is generally known as restomodding. It encompasses everything from vintage cars with upgraded brakes and cooling to fully re-engineered cars.

      Doing it along the lines you describe is relatively unusual. The main reason, I think, is the huge leap forward in safety. All other things being equal, wouldn't you want your teenage kid cocooned in a Volvo XC90?

      I've had various oldish - mostly about 30-40 years old today - cars over the years, and mostly they were pretty competent by modern standards anyway. Nice and light, because of no safety equipment, so they handled fine, stopped* and went fine, and were reasonably economical. (*The MG didn't stop all that well despite having modern brakes, because MG-Rover chose to mount the brake booster on a bulkhead made of material rejected from a cannery for being too thin. So bracing the bulkhead did the trick, no need for upgraded brakes.)

      But, they weren't safe. Not even close to modern standards. Now I have a family to protect from idiots, so as much as I want to drive something more fun and interesting - and probably appreciating instead of depreciating - I'm stuck with things that are dull and solid.

    4. KBeee

      Re: For several years-

      I wouldn't want my teenage daughter in a 50's, 60's or 70's car.

      No side impact protection? No collapsible bulkheads? No airbags?

  32. bertkaye

    no to consumer slavery

    When I buy a car I want to own it, not be a slave to a subscription service full of gingerbread features. Which is why I don't own a new BMW or GM product, or fo that matter use Microsoft 365 or an Adobe product. Forced consumerism stinks, whether in vehicles, computers, or via climate change mandates.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Say... GM...

    I'm in the market for a new car but, guess what? You're off the list and I hope off the list of tons of other car buyers now.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like