back to article Apple tells suppliers to use 'Taiwan, China' or 'Chinese Taipei' to appease Beijing

Apple, which celebrates its self-professed commitment to free expression and human rights, has reportedly told its suppliers in Taiwan to label their components so they describe Taiwan as a province of the People's Republic of China (PRC). According to Japanese financial publication Nikkei, Apple on Friday warned its suppliers …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Red-line

    "Unfortunately, we suspect that Apple's 'red-line,' the moment where it will say 'stop, no longer, we cannot continue to collaborate with the Chinese regime and enforce its requests for censorship,' is nowhere close," Ismail said.

    The only red-line Apple recognizes is the Red China supply line and they will do anything and everything (including ignoring US laws) to maintain it. Cook and Xi are much better buds than Cook and Biden (or Trump).

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: Red-line

      Granted that Apple are caught up in the politics of it, but every single day they do nothing about it is another day wasted on a mitigation strategy for the risk it represents to their business.

      I suspect that if it has come up in board meetings at all, it's always been considered as a "that would take years to work on" problem. Well, guess what? People have been pointing to Apple's dependency on Chinese manufacturing for years. They've had all the time in the world to do something about this risk's mitigation.

      Some may say that it's a bit harsh to single Apple out on this issue, as there's a lot of western companies dependent on Chinese production. But they are basically the biggest, by a long way, and if they're not going to do anything about it they're big enough to skew the market so that no one else can either.

      The real answer is likely designs that require no or minimum human hands for production. TVs are entirely robot made these days, why not phones too? If Apple can't have their designs mass produced in, say, the USA because of high labour cost, they're probably designing them wrong.

      1. tooltalk

        Re: Red-line

        wahtaboutism is a pathetic excuse for Apple's inexcusible outsourcing practices in China. Let's look at how "other" companies handled it: Apple's #1 competitor and also the largest smartphone maker in the world, Samsung. The company moved all their smartphone operation out of China completely by 2019 and significantly reduced other operations (such as shipbuilding, appliances, semiconductor) operations far greater than Apple's own out of China. At this point, it's quite lame to blame Apple's scale or lack of "engineers" elsewhere arguement to support their Make-China-Great operation.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Red-line

          The trouble with setting up business in a totalitarian regime is that you're then hitching future business certainty to the political trajectory of that totalitarian regime. If it heads in a positive direction (less totalitarian, more towards a democracy and the true rule of law), you're helping it head in that direction by bringing some prosperity to the mix. However, if it starts heading in a negative direction, and you don't do anything about it, everyone is, as the saying goes, screwed (but starting with the letter F instead).

          By the sounds of it, Samsung smelled the roses and decided the fragrance wasn't sufficiently sweet. 2019 is 6 years after Xi Jinping came to power. Coincidence?

          I'd love to know for sure the reasoning behind all this. I suspect that Samsung, being a Korean megacorp, has strong links into the South Korean government. Their gov's opinions on foreign policy like carry quite a lot of weight in Samsung's board.

          Whereas it feels that, in the USA, companies (at least, some companies, like a lot of the tech companies), would rather say "screw you" than pay any attention to suggestions and policies from their own government, especially if paying attention threatens to cost them a bit of short term money. If the US gov has been saying "er, you may want to think again being so dependent on China", and they've been ignored; well that could come back to hurt a lot of people, not just the companies.

          I think one of the problems US companies have is that they fundamentally assume US global dominance is unbounded, and permanent, and that they, who help pay for it don't pay their taxes like they might, can depend on US foreign policy successfully supporting their business indefinitely. It's, "The USA is too big for it to happen to us" syndrome. The trouble is that if they all assume that and act accordingly, they're just making it more likely that it won't be true.

          And of course, this goes back to the age old tradition in the USA of not trusting their own government who they've elected. Well, guess what happens when you don't trust your own government, that you have elected? You'll end up ignoring what, at least sometimes, is probably very sound advice. Like, don't eat washing machine tablets, or, vaccinations are good for you...

          This is a reason to truly loath conspiracy theorists, and especially politicians who seek to profit by perpetuating myths. Politicians voting based on their religious beliefs alone are in particular not dividing the business of government from religion. It's all very well to say that it doesn't really matter, and that there are no consequences, but it all adds up to a really, really nasty end result.

          1. David 132 Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Red-line

            >everyone is, as the saying goes, screwed (but starting with the letter F instead).

            Fcrewed?

            1. DoctorNine

              Re: Red-line

              Well, they recently got their f-keys back, but I think the dalliance with that touch strip thingy has messed with their muscle memory. Apple needs to press PRAM and go for a hard reset in India or something.

              And to their credit, I think that's the direction they appear to be moving. So.

            2. bazza Silver badge

              Re: Red-line

              Works with other words. Frilliant? Fexcellent? Fawful? Fucky bastard? Deep Frouble?

          2. EricB123 Bronze badge

            Re: Red-line

            Who is this guy who keeps putting the sole downvote for each comment? Does Mr Cook read El Reg?

            1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: Red-line

              Eh, you know the old saying: Don't ascribe to shilling what can adequately be explained by fanboyism.

      2. BOFH in Training

        Re: Red-line

        They could have started investing in other countries with cheap labour as well, so that they can build up supply lines elsewhere.

        India, Africa, South America, other parts of Asia (such as Vietnam, etc). They are still relatively cheap when it comes to labour.

        And if Apple pushes it's manufacturing in any of those areas, suppliers will follow.

        Apple has the resources and still has the time to do this. If they waste the time, they may end up between a rock and a hard place.

    2. J. R. Hartley

      Re: Red-line

      The fruity foxconn-rebrander doesn't give a fuck about ANYTHING except the bottom line.

      1. Youngone Silver badge

        Re: Red-line

        Not caring about anything except the bottom line is a basic tenant of capitalism.

        I'm old enough to remember when China started courting investment from the West, and all those business types were wetting their pants over the thought of all that cheap labour and a new consumer market.

        When anyone expressed doubts over the ethics of engaging with a dictatorship like China we were told that the best way of spreading democracy was through trade.

        Looks like they lied about that too.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Red-line

          >we were told that the best way of spreading democracy was through trade.

          Worked with Saudi Arabia

    3. gandalfcn Silver badge

      Re: Red-line

      Most companies have the same policy, so why all the hissy fits?

  2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Slave labour

    Where Apple is going to find labour so cheap to let them enjoy such profit margins?

    Probably only thing to get Apple to dump China would be reintroduction of slavery of some sort in the US and ability to send workers and their families to camps if they misbehave.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Slave labour

      you already got prisons in the US where forced labor is available for almost nothing...

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Slave labour

        Really. "Reintroduction" of slavery? It never went away; we just nationalized it.

    2. tooltalk

      Re: Slave labour

      There are unskilled, young, cheap labor pool elsewhere around the world. Just ask Samsung, they moved all of their massive smartphone operation out of China in 2019 (it started looking in ~2015, realizing growing China's geopolitical and economic risks). The company spent next few years helping out the Vietnamese gov't catch up with infrastructure and now as much as 50% of all Samsung smartphones are made in Vietnam.

    3. An_Old_Dog Silver badge
      Flame

      Re: Slave labour

      Why did this article use the mealy-mouthed, weasel-worded euphemism "forced labour" when the accurate term is slavery?!

    4. EricB123 Bronze badge

      Re: Slave labour

      Shhhh!

  3. VicMortimer Silver badge
    Trollface

    West Taiwan

    Do they mean Beijing, West Taiwan?

    1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge
      Windows

      The Label I Used to See

      ... was, "Made in Formosa".

      Now get off my lawn.

  4. Bitsminer Silver badge

    Airlines have been doing this for years...

    The airport in Taipei is TPE:

    British Airways -- Taipei, Taipei (TPE), Taiwan, China

    Air Canada -- Taipei, Taiwan, China

    American Airlines -- Taipei

    China Airlines -- Taipei, Taiwan Taoyuan International (TPE)

    Apple is late to the Party.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

      Yes sounds like they will be enforcing this at customs now so it sure won't be Apple that's the only one affected.

      For those who criticize them, I'm looking forward to their list of western companies with factories in China (which is most of them these days) who refuse to comply and have their product shipments halted and bravely choose to destroy their business over something so trivial.

      1. tooltalk

        Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

        This is not trivial. Apple's direct competitor #1 and the largest smarpthone maker Samsung did exactly that 3 years ago. They moved all their smartphone operation out of China, along with 200+ suppliers, down south in Vietnam where the locals routinely burn down Chinese own factories, especially CCP pisses them off.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

          This is about country of origin documentation where China will delay / stop shipments marked with "incorrect" COO. Apple are big enough to tell China to stick it, and they should have.

      2. BOFH in Training

        Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

        Apple or other chip designers should do what VAX did :

        https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html

        And label it as "MADE IN TAIWAN".

        Wonder if the China customs will even be aware of that, especially if chips are also used internally within China.

    2. IamAProton

      Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

      United Airlines : Chinese Taipei.

      https://www.united.com/en/us/timatic?i=TIMATIC (or perhaps is it timatic?)

      [Pedantic mode=on]

      Taiwan's formal name is actually "Republic of China", so it is 'China' as much as Mainland Taiwan :-)

      Taiwan should have used some more marketing not to let the commies take over the China name

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

        I've had boxed products where the outer brown cardboard box is labelled "company name, Taiwan R.O.C", Republic of China.

        1. el_oscuro

          Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

          Here on the other side of the pond, *Everything* I have ever seen that was made in Taiwan was labeled exactly that way: "Made in Taiwan". I have never seen anything labeled "Made in Taiwan, China", or any of that other rot.

          I avoid buying Made in China junk whenever possible.

    3. anothercynic Silver badge

      Re: Airlines have been doing this for years...

      This is because the airlines in question didn't want to go through the hassle of setting up an 'Asia' subsidiary... like KLM and some other airlines. The Asia subsidiary doesn't fly to China, and because officially the airline was separate from the main airline (with its own air operator certificate), airlines could claim that they were compliant with China's demands, while the Asia subsidiary didn't have to (because they didn't fly to mainland China).

      That's of course started to change... China is way more open these days and knows what's going on. And because many airlines now run *one* website for all ticket shopping, the Chinese government demands that the sites comply, which, well, makes the whole 'Asia' subsidiary thing obsolete.

  5. DerekCurrie
    Devil

    Cook's China: Criminal Nation Enablement Rewards

    China's cheap labor exploitation made you and the stockholders loads of dough!

    And it's, as predicted, destroying your human rights credibility!

    Oh and you know full well that China's has been stealing your IP, seeing how by law you've had to hand it over to them in order to exploit their slave wage labor.

    So, has enabling Cbina: Criminal Nation been worth compromising Apple's ethics?

    You were warned... by me, among many, decades ago.

    Enjoy what you've reaped!

    (o_0)

    1. DoctorNine

      Re: Cook's China: Criminal Nation Enablement Rewards

      You weren't the only one, Derek. Lots of us did.

  6. Pirate Dave Silver badge
    Pirate

    Correction

    "Were Apple to respond, it would presumably say something like, "The Seventh Seal has been opened!" "

    FTFY

  7. earl grey
    Big Brother

    is that like Taiwan, not part of mainland China at all?

    why does everyone suck up to a bully?

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Because the bully happens to be making 90% of what you buy.

      So bend over and take it.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Coat

        "So bend over and take it" IOW

        You want stuff from Taipai

        You got to pay.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "So bend over and take it" IOW

          What has the Isle of Wight done to offend you, apart from being a small island claimed to be part of England?

  8. alain williams Silver badge

    UN Member states

    The UN should grow some balls and recognise Taiwan as an independent member state.

    While they are at it they should also recognise Palestine.

    1. Snowy Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: UN Member states

      Not going to happen while Russia and China and a veto!

      <quote>The United Nations Security Council veto power is the power of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council (China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States) to veto any "substantive" resolution.</quote>

    2. sus
      Facepalm

      Re: UN Member states

      UN? Balls? Yeah right

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: UN Member states

      it was a vote of the UN that decided that the Chinese seat at the organization was better in the hand of the People's Republic instead of the Kuomintang, once the USA saw that they had to work with the Communists to solve their little problem in Vietnam...

    4. anothercynic Silver badge

      Re: UN Member states

      Not going to happen because China's position on the security council makes that impossible.

      1. BOFH in Training

        Re: UN Member states

        UN has been pretty dysfunctional in the pass few years anyway.

        And India has been making noise about not having a perm seat on the sec council (which makes sense, considering they are a sub continent with over a billion people).

        Eventually I suspect enough countries get pissed with the veto holding countries that they will start a new / revamped UN where vetos are not held by a few countries. The whole veto / security council was given to benefit the victors of WW2, and I think it's time that we went pass the whole "we won the WW2, so we get to decide what everyone else can or cannot do" bs.

        And I do recall India was also involved on the allie's side. And so were many other nations which did not get a sec council seat with a veto.

        Wonder when the pressure will force a new UN replacement.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: UN Member states

          France got a permanent seat because it won WWII ?

          1. LogicGate Silver badge

            Re: UN Member states

            It was the "we are all winners" price.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: UN Member states

            France brings the pastries to the meetings, so they get a permanent seat.

    5. Potemkine! Silver badge

      Re: UN Member states

      I'm not sure Taiwan asked to be recognized as an independent state different from mainland China.

  9. Lordrobot

    CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

    No matter how many screaming Birchers or fans of the Domino theory or Joe McCarthy clowns post, 90% of you are wearing Communist Shoes made in Vietnam! Deny it if you will just as you deny voting for Boris, Trump, Biden, Bush and Hitler if you are German.

    The last time the old liberals and Necons lined up with the stars they started a False Flag in Vietnam and a big fat war, which you lost badly to the barefoot Army of North Vietnam. The LBJ NIXON COMBO... Remember VIETNAMIZATION... sounds a bit like NATOIZATION... very similar.

    Before you think the US NAVY is going to go in an stomp China... be aware of this one important fact:

    1) The US has never attacked a nation with Nukes.

    They attack Sheepherders of course and one-sided bum fights but never a Nuke State. China is a nuke state and they have a hypersonic delivery system which the US does not have. You may recall when Tiny doll hands had his tiny fingers on the nuclear football. He put three Carrier groups around North Korea and blew off like beluga whale in mating season. Using words like "never before" or "as the world has never seen." This is before the beautiful letters... This is when Kim Jong Un fired a nuclear test verified by the DOD. Game over... the carriers made tracks for other oceans. In spite of the sad entreaties as to why the US had flubbed the intel, one fact remained clear... the Fat Kid had nukes and the US would only harass him and his sister from a distance.

    And in spite of all the threats and the false claims of you stole our IP... China builds 5g which you don't have and hypersonics which you don't have and combines LOGIC and DRAMM which you don't have etc etc. The old windmill of stollen IP has run its course. YOu stole our buggy whips and our RONCO set it and forget it machines. The only thing I guess China hasn't stolen is your reality TV.

    The fact is China just keeps building and it is in every direction. China beat America to 7nm FAB. They pop out warships like popcorn. Throw skyscrapers up in 60 days. They make full-scale islands, they are building a road tunnel to Taiwan. And you are going to stop these guys by screaming in a trash can or floating a flattop into the strait of Taiwan? The carrier group is surrounded by ship missiles, hypersonics, subs, drone swarms and drone nines. This is not a safe place to park your boat.

    These John and Joan Wayne posts are astonishing and humorous,... "WE NEED TO MARCH DOWN THERE AND SHOW CHINA WHO's BOSS!".. but bu but you lost to the barefoot Army of North Vietnam. You lost in Afgoonistan... you may as well have lost in Iraq. But you are going to take on the Chinese that make 1000 MMT of steel a year and pop up factories in minutes and skyscrapers in weeks.

    You are just not the boss anymore. You are a BoyScout troop named NATO. NATO doesn't fight, they party on weekends as they should... except for the Germans that long for the good ole days...

    Bottom line, why not try to get along rather than continue to plunge into petty antagonism and the Nancy Kerrigan kneecapping foreign policy? The world is looking at the lone carrier sitting in the Taiwan strait and they are not thinking that you could win in this mess. The world is thinking that maybe the USA bullying days are over. Maybe China has had enough and maybe the US approach of militarizing Taiwan is not a good idea at all. Maybe it is a stupid idea that will result in a US carrier group on the floor of the Taiwan Strait. \

    Muricans are big tough talkers with lots of easy plans... but as Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the face."

    1. llaryllama

      Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

      Sigh. I'm not sure what Chinese kool-aid you've been drinking but..

      1) China has not built any skyscrapers in 60 days

      2) China's aircraft carriers are all Russian hand-me-downs except the Fujian which is a copy of the Russian hand-me-downs

      3) The US does have hypersonic weapons along with several other countries, it's something of a nonsense buzzword in military terms

      4) China does not have any truly capable 7nm fabs yet, making one simple chip with 7nm features does not make you a true 7nm fab

      5) China is not building a road to Taiwan. Chinese state media have pushed out articles stating that China is going to build a tunnel to Taiwan but Chinese state media says a lot of things that are untrue. Sorry to burst your bubble.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

        I really wouldn't be so complacent.

        1) 19 days, here's a timelapse:

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/apr/30/china-build-57-storey-skyscraper-19-days-timelapse-video

        2) 3 domestic aircraft carriers launched since late 2021. (Fujian,Hainan,Guangxi).

        3) Buzzword agreed, but still actual weapons.

        4) True scotsman argument....

        5)

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G3_Beijing%E2%80%93Taipei_Expressway

        "The Beijing–Taipei Expressway...is a partially completed Chinese expressway that, if fully constructed, would connect Mainland China with Taiwan. Currently, the expressway is complete from Beijing to Fuzhou, Fujian, and is fully complete in Mainland China except for a small section in Fujian which is under construction.....In Taiwan, the expressway is proposed to connect with a hypothetical G99 Taiwan Ring Expressway in New Taipei City, which would supposedly encircle the island of Taiwan, as proposed by the People's Republic of China. "

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

          Can I suggest to you USA/NATO self deluding lot, a simple truth here:

          Xi clearly has eyes on expanding China by force.

          He was likely emboldened by Russia annexing Crimea so easily with such minimal blowback.

          He's really concerned by the strong US/EU support now for Ukraine.

          If you want to stop his military ambitions, Russia needs to be mortally wounded for attacking Ukraine.

          Twiddling with Taiwan and pretending the world revolves around TMSC's 7nm processes, won't help. Destroying Russias pipelines will, destroying Russian military infrastructure will. It's not enough to simply win in Ukraine, and restore Crimea, Russia needs to come out of this crippled, vulnerable, afraid of its neighbors. In the process you will set back Xi's ambitions past his lifespan.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

            "Russia needs to come out of this crippled, vulnerable, afraid of its neighbors."

            That was the intention of the Versailles Peace Treaty of 1919. That didn't lead to the intended result.

            1. DoctorNine

              Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

              No one wants China to go away. The Chinese people are some of the most industrious and productive people anyplace. What WILL happen eventually, is that their authoritarian government, which increasingly poorly represents their actual interests, will be bypassed by the population, who will get tired of the ossified politics of the CCP, and creatively reinvent themselves. It may not be soon, as demonizing an external enemy will help Xi cement immediate patriotic influences and maintain control. But the whole of Chinese history is a recurring cycle of consolidation, bureaucracy and then either revolution, or conquest by an outside power. Some of the forces causing this were pretty well outlined by Wittfogel in the 19th century, but even accounting for the limitations of that model, more contemporary analyses still give Xi little options besides opening up authoritarian control.

              It therefore makes sense for capitalists to be exceedingly cautious with investment in a social model that is teetering on the edge. As a fairly well invested individual myself, putting more of my own resources in Apple, are definitely predicated on a judicious balance of moving production to less threatened locales, and also simultaneous constructive engagement with the current Chinese government to encourage First-World behaviors.

              It can't be just one or the other.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

                Nice fantasies, but until the Chinese people have their own tanks, every day has the possibility to be a new Tiananmen Square celebration.

                China's history has always been about control and obedience. Look at Confucianism, look at how they ever so gently tweaked Buddhism to ensure eternal obedience by the masses. There's nothing there about "bypassing the government". The only ones who try to bypass the government are whichever new junta decides it wants to be the Chinese Government for a while, and then millions have to die.

        2. jmch Silver badge

          Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

          Not going into all detail but, Re 1)

          'erecting the shell' is not the same as 'building'

          This type of development, digging a giant hole and laying foundations takes 6 months. - 1 year. The building structure takes a week or two*. Plumbing, electricity, ventilation, tiling, plastering etc and finishing takes another 6 months - 1 year. Putting the walls and floors up is the easy bit.

          Regarding the expressway, what you're saying is that China has built a motorway on mainland China that runs close to the coast by Taiwan. There is no tunnel

          *plenty of Western firms can build a floor a day. They don't do 3 floors a day because they work 8 hours not 24, and they follow health and safety rules - it's not because they're not technically capable. That's a plus for the West not a plus for China

          1. Eclectic Man Silver badge

            Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY... ASIDE - building times

            A long time ago, a Muslim sultan hired the best architect of the day to design and build a mosque. The architect vanished after the foundations had been laid. The sultan was, understandably, angry, but work could not proceed without the architect, so it all stopped. Two years later the architect reappeared and was promptly brought before the Sultan for an 'audience'.

            The architect insisted that you had to wait two years after laying the foundations to let them settle, as otherwise the superstructure (i.e., above ground parts) would crack and fall down. The Sultan basically said "show me", so off they went to the site, and lo and behold, the foundations had settled a bit and all the builders agreed that had the mosque been built immediately, it would have had to be demolished due to cracks etc.

            The mosque was finished, dedicated etc. and the Sultan was happy, but suggested to the architect that next time, an explanation of the process would be in order, to avoid 'misunderstandings'.

            A lot of quick build modern housing cracks after building and for years sometimes decades after, because modern builders never let the foundations settle. My parent's house is over 35 years old and has just had another crack repaired. Of course, skyscrapers are different, and probably have much better foundations (I hope).

        3. jgladden

          Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

          My son erected a skyscrapper out of legos in an hour, I guess he has China beat? The US has building codes that ensure the soundness and safety of construction. Speed is never an indicator of quality, speed speaks to the primitiveness and lack of quality of the execution. I think back in the day log cabins where erected in a week.

          What is ironic is China continues to build anything considering Xi’s laughable mishandling of China’s real estate market, just one more crippling catastrophe to their economy.

          Xi’s loss of face resulting from his cowardly response only AFTER Pelosi’s visit speaks volumes about his Russian hand me down military might. All it took was the USS Reagan 600 miles away to have him mute and impotent as Pelosi landed and enjoyed a cordial welcome and day in Taiwan.

          Xi’s drakonian covid measures, Jack Ma bungle, real estate disaster, cooking of Chinese company books putting them in US market delisting status, impotent response to Pelosi, childish pouting withdrawal from climate change talks all demonstrate that he is not a world class leader of a powerful nation but more a world class embarrassment of a fragile country.

          I do not think Taiwan needs to worry, if Xi is able to steal a third term he will likely lead to China’s down fall long before Taiwan / US relations do.

          If not, the West would not need to fire a single bullet, if the same level of sanctions currently levied against Russia were directed at China their economy would collapse and Xi would agree to whatever terms the West assigns him.

          1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

            Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

            The US has building codes that ensure the soundness and safety of construction

            Well, building codes and Diane Hartley.

            We don't always get the buildings right. Codes help, certainly, but it's not a foolproof process, particularly when architects get ambitious.

            See also: the windows of the John Hancock building in Boston; Skyline Plaza in Bailey's Crossroads, Virginia; and so on. There was a partial collapse of an apartment complex under construction in Michigan about ten years ago.

            Of course, if the software industry could reach this level of catastrophic failure it'd be a huge improvement, so who am I to throw stones? (Particularly if I'm in the Hancock building.)

        4. llaryllama

          Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

          1) from the same article: "Broad Sustainable Building spent four and a half months fabricating the building’s 2,736 modules before construction began. The first 20 floors were completed last year, and the remaining 37 were built from 31 January to 17 February this year, Xiao said. "

          2) calling the Hainan/Guangxi landing vessels aircraft carriers is perhaps something of a stretch. For those interested in making up your own minds look up the PLA type 075 assault vessel.

          4) I don't know what a scotsman argument is but it doesn't change the fact that China is still massively behind Japan, Taiwan and Korea in the top end of high-tech industries.

          5) I'm Taiwanese living in Taiwan and I can tell you categorically that no Chinese expressway has even broken ground anywhere on Taiwan.

          Saying that the Beijing-Taipei expressway is partially completed is like saying the US-UK expressway is partially completed because both countries have roads.

      2. steviebuk Silver badge

        Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

        Sadly they believe everything Winnie the Pooh tells them, brainwashed so much they even had fits after Pelois (spelling?) landed in Taiwan.

        The problem is its a culture of face, because she was allowed to land despite the bullshit Xi was saying, some ordinary citizens of China felt they had lost face. So then decided, for some very odd reasons, to go on China's own social media platforms and slap themselves. Crying and slapping themselves. All because they believed Xi so much, they were hoping for war.

        Odd.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

      50 cents have been deposited in your social credit account.

    3. abstract

      Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

      Still China is too shy to take the lead. Yes the world is fed up with the supremacists but China still think they need the West which is totally false. China has grown a strong domestic market and workforce but they still remain in their ancestral habits of the emperor is god and anyone who oppose has to be destroyed.

      This puts China in a difficult position to expand its ties abroad. China definitely needs to review it's stance to evolve and create strategical links.

    4. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

      " just as you deny voting for...Hitler if you are German."

      I wonder what the population of over 99's is in Germany? And of those, how many voted for Hitler?

      1933 -79 years ago. Voting age, 20.

      Ah, I see there are about 20,000 centenarians in Germany out of a current population of 83m or so.

      Hitlers party got about 43% of the vote in 1933, so potentially there are about 8600 people still alive who may have voted for Hitler, not taking demographics into account, eg women tend to live longer than men, which may sway that number up or down, depending on if Hitler was more or less popular with women.

      Whatever, it's a tiny number and I doubt any read here, so "you" is a bit vague in your accusation on that point.

      1. David 132 Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

        >1933 -79 years ago

        You might want to re-check that one.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

          Oops, yes, 89 years ago.. That's what I get for counting on my fingers instead of using the hugely complex calculating machine I have at my fingertips :-)

          So only still living Germans over the age of 109 could have voted for Hitler, making the answer about zero now.

    5. This post has been deleted by its author

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "to the barefoot Army of North Vietnam"

      You mean those with MiGs and SAMs delivered by Russia and China? Barefoot MiGs? Never saw one.

      Moreover when lives of barefoot soldiers mean nothing to those in command is far easier to send them to be massacred - especially when no one can complain or follow the same fate.

      Probably China now still has enough peasants to be sent to die in Taiwan - lie Putin is doing in Ukraine - but are those living better ready to lose their wealth?

      BTW: it's funny how China quickly forgot who helped them to fight the Japanese....

    7. BOFH in Training

      Re: CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY...

      Nobody with nukes have directly attacked anyone with nukes since nukes started to be a thing.

      It's always been thru proxies and such (like in Afghanistan).

      If ever a country with nukes attacks another country with nukes, I think there is a very real chance that will be the end of the human race (no matter how dysfunctional it has been)

  10. fxkeh

    No company ... should be allowed to prioritize profit over human rights and individuals' freedoms

    Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha, what fantasy world is this person living in, where this doesn't happen all the time?

  11. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    "we were only following orders."

    Yeah. That argument worked so well in Nuremburg.

    So it's official now : the fruity company has no balls.

    Oh well, join the herd I guess.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    the fact is, that is still the official name of Taiwan: the Republic of China.

    "Taiwan, China" isn't much different from "Republic of China (Taiwan)", which is the way their own government itself put it:

    https://www.taiwan.gov.tw

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yeah - coz as we’ve just seen. China is completely ok with Taiwan doing anything else…

    2. llaryllama

      There is a very big difference in perception for the majority of westerners who know little to nothing about the Chinese civil war and this is part of the cognitive warfare China is waging against Taiwan.

      Republic of China (Taiwan) is clearly disconnected from the PRC even if you know nothing of the geopolitics or history. "Taiwan, China" is a lot more murky as most people would read this as "Taiwan, the province/City/region of (PR) China".

  13. steviebuk Silver badge

    Would be nice if

    Taiwan told Apple to "Get fucked"

  14. Stu J

    Can anyone answer the question, logically...

    ...why don't China just leave Taiwan the fuck alone and stop causing trouble. If they try and take Taiwan by force it'll end in tears for everyone, so what's the point? Is the existence of Taiwan really a credible threat to Beijing?

    1. jmch Silver badge

      Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

      Not sure it's logical but a) not wanting to lose face and b) Taiwan still basically claims to be the legi government of China.

      I agree that the easiest solution is for both to officially recognise the status quo

      1. abstract

        Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

        So basically they all agree they are the same people

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

          but for the native Formosan...

        2. Dave559 Silver badge

          Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

          The situation is, umm, complicated, and my understanding may be somewhat incomplete, for which I apologise, if in error.

          A lot of time has now passed since the Chinese Civil War, and although part of Taiwan's population is of mainland Chinese descent, both from historic times, and, more "recently", from the Republic of China's retreat to Taiwan in 1949, since then, as time and the previous generations pass, gradually more of the population has felt that they have a definite Taiwan identity (especially those with long ancestral presence) and less attachment to being still the rightful Republic of (all) China waiting to reclaim its territory (which was the UN perspective until 1971). There are of course strong views on both sides.

          The prospect of the RoC replacing the PRC government in mainland China is of course slim, but the PRC regards Taiwan as still being part of China and would not accept Taiwan becoming formally independent (if it were to relinquish the RoC stance and choose to do that), hence the uncomfortable stalemate and the fine balancing acts walked by outsiders to avoid diplomatic offence to either side.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

            why don't ChinaBritain just leave TaiwanIreland the fuck alone and stop causing trouble

            1. Stu J

              Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

              If the British (English) government could come up with a politically acceptable way of getting rid of Northern Ireland, I suspect they would, it's very much a thorn in the side of their Brexity plans.

              1. cookieMonster Silver badge
                Joke

                Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

                Not only do the British not want anything to do with NI, the Irish don’t either.

                I think the best option would be to tow it into the North Atlantic and either give them independence or sink it.

            2. genghis_uk
              Facepalm

              Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

              After that fantastic summary bounding up 100 years of difficult, sectarian politics into a single insightful comment, how could we fail to act in everyone's best interest... We'll get right on that - thanks for fixing it.

            3. Spazturtle Silver badge

              Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

              Britain is the one preventing trouble in Ulster, and the Ulster Scots rather like the protection of being part of the UK as it protects them from their expansionist southern neighbour

            4. deadlockvictim

              Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

              To be fair, Taiwan doesn't have a group like the Ulster Unionists and Taiwan generates a lot of money, which is somewhat different to the money-sucking hole that is the Six Counties. And even the Catholic community recognises the NHS is so much better than the equivalent in the Republic of Ireland. That same money-sucking hole also applies to the (southern) Irish Dept. of Health and Bertie-Brainchild, the HSE.

              The comparison between NI and Taiwan is just not all that great.

      2. llaryllama

        Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

        Many people in Taiwan including me are fighting to change the constitution, but the PRC has explicitly stated that any change in Taiwan's constitution is an act of war.

        If a group of very large men with guns followed you around and insisted that you need to wear a sign saying "I am a dickhead" but otherwise let you go about your life normally I think most people would put up with some minor humiliation if the other choice was fighting the big men with guns.

    2. iron Silver badge

      Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

      During the revolution the former government of China fled to Taiwan and set up a government in exile, claiming to be the rightful government of China. So the very existence of Taiwan as a separate entity is an existential threat to the PRC.

      1. Stu J

        Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

        But is it, really? Taiwan has zero chance of taking back the mainland by force or otherwise...

        1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

          Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

          Taiwan has zero chance of taking back the mainland by force or otherwise...

          Unless America decides to loan it 51st State status. And therein is the problem with Trump and now Biden talking up 'China is the evil enemy', Pelosi flying in to support the Taiwanese cause. Promises that America won't take military action against China look as hollow as Nato's promises not to expand up to Russia's borders.

          1. jmch Silver badge

            Re: Can anyone answer the question, logically...

            "look as hollow as Nato's promises not to expand up to Russia's borders"

            To be fair, far from promising to not expand to Russia's borders, NATO was quite open about wanting to do exactly that. An absolutely stupid thing to do, of course, but never be it said that the US is discreet about it's f*ckups

  15. StefDeLux

    There is much worse than Apple

    How about all those companies standardising on Lenovo laptops? Don't they play into China's hand? And HP and Dell, are they different? And all the customers on Alibaba in the western world, aren't they the dumbest?

    Eradicating China from our lives would require much more awareness and mind share in the population. And with millennials obsessed by their woke themes, that is not going to happen soon.

  16. Barry Rueger

    Ukraine anyone?

    China is surely watching Russia slowly inch its way over Ukraine while all of the freedom loving western nations refuse to do anything beyond supplying arms. Oh, and trade embargoes.

    China is likely confident that once it sends troops into Taiwan the US and others will do little more than stamp their feet and wag their fingers

    1. abstract

      Re: Ukraine anyone?

      Why do you think Russia started it's operation against Ukraine? They knew the supremacists were in weak position mainly boasting and showing-off to reassure themselves.

      WASHINGTON, Feb 24 (Reuters) - The United States is sending 7,000 troops to Germany to help reassure NATO allies who are part of a larger contingent that had already been put on alert earlier this year, a senior U.S. defense official said.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Ukraine anyone?

        "Why do you think Russia started it's operation against Ukraine? They knew the supremacists were in weak position mainly boasting and showing-off to reassure themselves."

        What kind of "supremacists" are you talking about? Nazis? White Supremacists? The Jewish Cabal?

        Do you really think a "Nazi" or "white supremacist" state or government would allow a Jew to be President without arranging an "accident". I think you've been drinking Putins Kool-Aid.

        1. abstract

          Re: Ukraine anyone?

          I have already explained that. Supremacism is not the sole fact of some extremist that makes it to the news. Supremacism is intimate to Western culture, it is the way Westerners think. The National Socialist of Germany were not that different from the French and Americans. WWII was a war between Hitlers.

          Many Jews were colonialist and oppressors within the British and French colonial empires. Nothing changed.

          The supremacists consider themselves as the only one who can be considered victims because the rest of the world are just animals.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Ukraine anyone?

            If you think eastern cultures are not exactly the same in your terms, then you need to do a bit more research.

            At the very least, your "western supremacists" and "war between Hitlers" includes Japan. Hardly a "western" culture.

            1. abstract

              “I wasn’t running against Hitler. I was running against the world.” -Jesse Owens

              To understand "my terms" you have to remove yourself from that western propaganda that is so deeply rooted in the way you view the world.

              The European countries fought each other for the colonies. Germany was blaming France for benefiting from the colonies when the German had to suffer all the harshness of the economic crises. The result was the destruction of the European colonial empires. The truth about the hatred against Hitler is because he helped destroy the french and British empires.

              Today they try to pretend that what was saying Hitler was unacceptable but the truth is that what he was saying was known by all and it was not that shocking because it was the way of thinking at that time. How do you think the french and English were considering africans? They were saying that not all races are equal when it comes to evolution.

              You cry your tears about Jesse Owens?

              Unfortunately, President Roosevelt did not receive or contact Jesse Owens, who later commented: “Hitler didn't snub me—it was our president who snubbed me… The president didn't even send me a telegram.” “Jesse Owens Charges Roosevelt Snubbed,” Jefferson City Post-Tribune, October 16, 1936.

              https://www.whitehousehistory.org/running-against-the-world

          2. LogicGate Silver badge

            Re: Ukraine anyone?

            "WWII was a war between Hitlers."

            --if you mean that Hitler and Stalin were not that different, then I would tend to agree with you. However, I suspect otherwise.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazino_tragedy

            Do not eat while reading

            1. abstract

              Re: Ukraine anyone?

              You are so deeply brainwashed that you can't understand very basic and obvious facts. The propaganda and all the blabla about Hitler is a way for the West to subdue with their so called principles when in facts they were and still are the wrongdoers all the same.

              6 & 9 August 1945 - Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

              20 November 1945 - Nuremberg trials.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    you are the problem

    Apple has one objective, sell as many of the cheapest products they can produce for the highest margin. Apple is not interested in their customers well being, morality, democracy, decency, human rights, the China lead genocide of Uyghurs, the well fare of their employees much less the well fare and freedoms of Taiwan’s population. Apple will say, support, do whatever it takes to maximize their profit. Each of us however have a choice. We can spin up arguments to placate the guilt we feel for supporting companies like Apple or we can actually take some responsibility for what they choose to do demanding with our pocket books that they do not bow to a government that treats human life as an expendable commodity. If Biden is too cowardly and Apple is too greedy that leaves it to us to make the tough choices. Read labels, if a product is made in China spend a little extra to buy the alternative. Make adding the word China to a product a marketing liability. Instead of going around blaming “the government”, China or Apple for the worlds problems realize that you are the problem, it is not armies and nukes, but your pocket book that is the ultimate weapon.

    1. abstract

      Re: you are the problem

      You supremacists better accept the fact that the world is waking up. You don't care about human beings all you care about is your supremacy.

  18. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    Time to move to something which is completely transparent...

    Such as:-

    Manufactured near 25.0330° N, 121.5654° E

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The reasons not to buy Apple multiply

    possibly exponetially

  20. John Savard

    Violating Sanctions?

    I am distressed when Apple engages in behavior that I disapprove of, as are noted in this article.

    But the fact that those quoted in this article as criticizing Apple's behavior are claiming that it is violating U.S. sanctions against China is another matter. The U.S. government has shown, time and again, that it is fully prepared to prosecute any and all violators of its laws in this area. It is therefore hard for me to believe that any prospect of profit would tempt the management of Apple to play such a dangerous game.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Violating Sanctions?

      It may be easy to show the existence of violations on sanctions on parts of Chinese exports, but much harder to to reliably detect - say 90% - of such cases.

      I'm not saying that is an excuse for Apple, just that those kind of sanctions have a low practical-to-symbolic ratio.

      Much better would be to simply raise import taxes on imports from China, or goods that have been sourced from China (e.g., shipped over the border to Vietnam for packaging and labeling). Banning all cotton products from China would be OK, there are plenty of other sources for that.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    One bad apple

    If China wants to be taken seriously, then the CCP needs to grow the f#ck up!

    You’re all just people, we all have flaws.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: One bad apple

      Britain calls for an end to Chinese Imperialism

      USA demands China stop interfering in S.E Asia

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I am not going to

    defend Apple because I believe they are doing wrong But I do think it is wrong to single them out.

    They are not the only company to tow the Chinese line are they? The real problem is on us. The consumer. We want everything to be as cheap as possible.

    Human rights e.t.c. would go out the window if the reason for price increases was the company manufacturing/sourcing parts was the reason.

    One thing I have learnt over my many years is, it is always easy for me to criticise others as long as I am not the one that actually has to sort whatever out.

  23. Auntie Dix
    Big Brother

    Repeat After Me and Create Your Own Apple Slogans

    iPhone made by slave labor in Communist China

    Alternative 1:

    iPhone made by deceased youths who jumped from factory windows in Communist China

    Alternative 2:

    iPhone for narcissists with disposable cash, made by mistreated, dirt-poor transplants from rural Communist China

    Now, your turn.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oops, typo

    I see a lot of accidental-on-purpose typos coming on.

    Taiwan, Chain

    Chinsee Taipei

    Cheesie, N. Taiwan

  25. John Savard

    Better Computers

    I would be very pleased if TSMC told Apple that this wasn't in the original contract for their 4nm allocation, and thus that AMD would be pleased to get it instead.

    However, I very much doubt this will happen, and instead I think they'll cave unless Taiwan's government makes it illegal to label exports from the island in this way.

  26. martinusher Silver badge

    Shouldn't be necessary, people have been doing it for years. For Apple, the world's #1 bling supplier, its a case of "Nice market you've got here, pity if something was to happen to it".

    Its not as if we could do anything against China short of Armageddon (we've got plenty of pols here in the US who'd welcome that so don't rule it out). Our behavior elsewhere has shown our diplomacy to be a sham. Its inviting direct confrontation. We might just get it.

  27. deadlockvictim

    Subhead: That's the way the Cook he crumbles

    Is no-one going to compliment the editorial staff on that clever wordplay?

    I think it's brilliant.

    1. Korev Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Subhead: That's the way the Cook he crumbles

      It certainly is, upvoted

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