back to article Meta materials: Facebook using AI to design green concrete

Facebook parent company Meta has a new project that's grounded in the physical realm: using artificial intelligence to discover new formulas for green concrete. Concrete is foundational to modern construction, but the manufacturing process is a huge source of carbon emissions. Manufacturing cement, one of the primary …

  1. Wyrdness

    Farcebook's AI?

    I wouldn't trust Farcebook's AI to get even the simplest thing right.

    For example, I'm in my mid-50's and haven't cycled since I was a teenager. Yet Arsebook kept showing me ads for cycling clothing, cycle saddles, bells and much other pedalling paraphernalia.

    Despite me marking these ads as irrelevant, I was continually bombarded with these. So I clicked on 'why I am seeing this ad'. The answer 'because you are interested in cycling'. No idea how FB's artificial intelligence got that idea. So I removed cycling from my list of ai-generated supposed 'interests' (which also included music and movies that I'd never even heard of).

    So the cycling ads stopped briefly and then started again. Off to check 'why am I seeing this ad' once more. 'Because', Fartbook tells me, 'you are interested in British Cycling'. No idea where Facebook's artificial stupidity got that idea from. So I removed that from my 'interests' (again finding that I'm apparently interested music, movies, books etc. that I've never heard of).

    No more cycling ads for a while then....

    You guessed it... Buy saddles! Buy yellow Lycra jerseys! Buy cycle phone mounts!

    I check my ai-generated 'interests' again and this time...

    "You are interested in cycle commuting"

    No Fuck-You-Book, I am not. I'd die on the North Circular if I was dumb enough to ever try that.

    Anyway, no more cycling ads for a couple of years. Then they start again. Check my 'interests' again (more crap I've never heard of) and....

    "You are seeing this ad because you are interested in cycling".

    So we start the whole cycle (pun intended) again.

    The point of this whole rant being, if FB's 'artificial insanity' is given the task of creating Green Concrete, I wouldn't be surprised (based on my experience) if it devised a recipe containing Green Cheese, Green Tea, Green Marahishi's and Blue Jeans.

    1. johnfbw

      Re: Farcebook's AI?

      Are you in the Rotary Club or any other wheel based club?

      Or maybe you forgot to sign out of someone elses computer!

  2. JDPower666

    Why green, why not concrete of all the colours of the rainbow?

  3. Ken Hagan Gold badge
    Unhappy

    oh dear, that's made things complicated

    Does this mean that FB is no longer an unmitigated abomination unto Om?

    1. skeptical i

      Re: oh dear, that's made things complicated

      Yeah, I was just wondering "huh? fecesbook has done something USEFUL?" Will wonders never cease.

  4. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    Dot.com time scales

    I recall reading that concrete's formula is critical for long term stability. The AI knows Meta well and considers self-demolition to be a huge carbon emissions saver.

  5. bombastic bob Silver badge
    Boffin

    making concrete

    Other than pointing out the reality of CO2 vs its "mythical" properties that make it an alleged planet killer by allegedly changing climate in the shape of a hockey stick, the reality is that concrete (and it's cousin cement), invented by the Romans, is at the core of construction world wide. Without it, get used to living in HUTS. You cold not even build a brick wall or stucco a house without it.

    It is, after all, liquid stone that dries into a very durable material.

    Concrete works by using Calcium Oxide (CaO) mixed with water, sand, rock, and frequently a lattice of steel rebar. Sometimes it is pre-stressed to give it extra rigidity.

    To make the Calcium Oxide, you take limestone (Calcium Carbonate) and BURN it. With fire. Heh. This releases the CO2 (which was THERE ALREADY) and forms Calcium Oxide. Simple. When mixed with the water, sand, etc. it chemically reacts (producing heat and steam) to form CaOH which binds the sand and other materials into solid concrete.

    Carbonate formation begins in the ocean, where RAIN depletes atmospheric CO2 and the resulting carbonic acid (H2CO3) reacts with Calcium and Magnesium to form CaCO3, Mg2CO3, MgHCO3, and CA(HCO3)2. These precipitate out and form carbonate layers at the bottom of the sea. Additionally limestone can form from acidified rain (rain has a HIGH affinity for CO2 absorption) dripping down into caves, where it reacts with calcium and magnesium in the soil to form things like stalagtites and stalagmites. This rain+CO2 thing is why ther is only about 0.04% CO2 concentration in the atmosphere, part of the equilibrium reaction that stabilizes CO2 concentration. It's basic science.

    When the oceans were displaced by rising continents, the carbonates were exposed as limestone and calcite and other such things, which can then be mined (and also from caves if you wanted to) and heated to form CaO that can be used to build EVERYTHING that constitutes buildings, roads, parking lots, and so on. Modern cities, yeah.

    So I have to wonder why the big deal about CO2 anyway, since I just described how and why it is at equilibrium, and because we're simply putting it back into the cycle of rain depletion and CaCO3 (etc.) production. In fact a vast amount of the world's carbon is "stored" in lake beds and the bottom of the sea. Shellfish bubble CO2 exhalations through sea water to form their own shells. When ocean temperatures rise, some of this is dissolved and then "effervesces" into the atmosphere. It's all part of a natural cycle, in other words.

    But if the "new process" results in BETTER concrete at LOWER prices, I'm willing to listen...

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: making concrete

      >So I have to wonder why the big deal about CO2 anyway, since I just described how and why it is at equilibrium

      But (as far we know) it isn't at equilibrium, as atmospheric CO2 levels have risen significantly in recent decades. Putting to one side whether or not this is or isn't a good or bad thing, it has been deemed that rising atmospheric CO2 levels are bad and things that emit CO2 are bad and need to be reduced.

      In wanting to remove CO2, all emissions of CO2 have come under the spotlight, hence why the production of concrete has received attention. However, it would seem we are only beginning to appreciate the different CO2 cycles, so whilst the production of cement does emit CO2, concrete will reabsorb roughly 30% of that amount.

      So the real challenge is removing the atmospheric CO2 that is attributable to the burning of fossil fuels and putting that back underground.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: making concrete

        atmospheric CO2 levels have risen significantly in recent decades

        logic phallacies fallacies detected.

        * what is 'significantly' in this context

        * was there a cause (such as underwater volcanos or higher water temperature) that would shift the equilibrium reaction towards the release of more CO2? Keep in mind that as temperatue rises, so will CO2 atmospheric concentration, due to the higher water temperature, and NOT the other way 'round. Chem 101

        * 'recent decades' when there are at least 2 observable temperature cycles in the northern hemisphere, one 500 years long, another70 years long. observing too few leads to things like "the hockey stick" chart AlGore is infamous for.

        [the trend line of a sinusoidal shape, between -135 and +135 degrees, looks like a steep unending upward trend with no end, like that 'hockey stick' shape.]

        Sorry, not buying it. Try harder. Thanks for playing.

  6. J.G.Harston Silver badge

    As Bob indirectly refers to, concerete is sort-of carbon neutral. You make cement by driving off the CO2. The cement sets by re-absorbing it. See BioDome Two, cement properties, knowledge, lack of, for more details.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      It's carbon neutral except for the vast amount of energy you need to drive off the CO2 from the carbonate. The cement doesn't later re-absorb /that/ and until you can invent an electric cement kiln, get used to the fact that it isn't even close to being carbon neutral.

  7. IGotOut Silver badge

    new formulas for green concrete

    Talk about green washing

    It's not just the co2 that's the issue, it's also hugely environmentally destructive.

    But a "Cement that's not quite as bad" doesn't sound as good in the PR releases.

  8. DS999 Silver badge

    Just saw an article yesterday

    About a couple guys who had come up with a way to make carbon negative cement - because its waste products passively absorb CO2 so it is carbon negative regardless of what fuel you use to heat the kiln.

    https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/brimstone-to-produce-the-worlds-first-carbon-negative-portland-cement-2022-04-28

    The best thing about this is that it is ordinary Portland cement, not some new type that will need years of testing and qualification before it can be widely used in concrete roads and structures. It is also cheaper to make. Unless they are pulling a Theranos, this is a huge breakthrough.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Just saw an article yesterday

      Looks interesting. Obviously we await confirmation that this works in practice and at scale, but they claim to have a process already so it shouldn't take long to prove it one way or the other.

    2. sreynolds

      Re: Just saw an article yesterday

      Is this like that argument that cellulose has negative calories or something?

      Personally I would worry if my structures started absorbing CO2. So that means that the static load it can hold decreases over its lifetime. The one that that absorbs CO2 is a tree. Those things don't mix very well with buildings and/or concrete.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Just saw an article yesterday

        >Personally I would worry if my structures started absorbing CO2.

        Carbonatation is a natural process, referred in some sources as "the sponge effect".

        There are some articles reporting that the addition of small amounts of nanoscale titanium dioxide can nearly double the amount of CO2 sequestered through this process.

        >So that means that the static load it can hold decreases over its lifetime.

        Don't know, but would hope that someone is researching this point as it has to be a concern.

  9. -v(o.o)v-

    New??

    Fly ash and slag have been used in cement for ages so it is ridiculous to claim Faecesbook somehow invented these.

  10. FozzyBear

    DAMN

    I read the story in the hopes that Zuckface was found entombed in concrete.

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