Details of '120,000 Russian soldiers' leaked by Ukrainian media Ukrainian news website Ukrainska Pravda says the nation's Centre for Defence Strategies think tank has obtained the personal details of 120,000 Russian servicemen fighting in Ukraine. The publication has now shared this data freely on its website. The Register and others have been unable to fully verify the accuracy of the …
"That's a bit of a leap isn't it,..."
It is yes, a little too far. I'm just thinking of the consequences of war. If someone was to kill because of a data leak, is the condition of war not a reason? People.kill.over.$10 illegally, killing under a circumstances of saving lives could/can be seen as justified no matter which side you're on.
Ukraine: Dear Mrs. Androvitch, did you know your son Mikov is currently slaughtering innocent women & children in Ukraine?
Mrs. Androvitch: No I did not. Are you sure?
Ukraine: Yes. We can send you photos & video of him doing it. If you give us an email address we'll send you a link to all the evidence we've got.
Mrs. Androvitch: Ok. Here it is. If you're telling the truth then he just wound up on Santa's Shit List.
Ukraine: Thank you. Link sent. Goodbye.
Mrs. Androvitch picks up the phone & dials her son's number: MIKOV! Is it true that you're slaughtering innocent women & children?
Mikov, annoyed: It's called a war, mom. What do you think happens in a war?
Mrs. Androvitch, shouting loud enough to be heard by every soldier in ten meters of her son: I raised you better than that! Young man, you're grounded! Just wait until I tell your father! Come home RIGHT NOW!
Mikov, childish whine: Aww moooom, but all my friends are doing it too...
Mrs. Androvitch, pitch rising, Drill Sargent Projecting & bellowing: COME! HOME! RIGHT! NOW!
Mikov, tiny defeated voice: Yes mom. Right now.
(His friends all make "OOOOO You are SO busted!" noises.)
...
I mean, think of the shit you could put all the enemy soldiers through if you started calling their families/friends/lovers/employers/acquaintences to ask very pointed questions about the soldier's activities, the emotional backlash those calls would generate against the soldier, & the utter shit storm it would cause amongst the enemy forces when all those personal calls started flooding in.
You can jam all the cell signals to thwart your (own/enemy) forces from getting/making any calls, but that just pushes the problem ever farther up the chain of command.
Can't get ahold of Mikov directly? Call his Commanding Officer. Can't reach the C.O.? Call HIS C.O. Can't get ahold of that one? Keep climbing up the chain until you do get in touch with someone, then burn their ears off while chewing them a new arse.
Then, after having grilled the military, vent your frustrations to the (social/main stream) media. Soon enough the tidal wave of angry voices WILL get heard and that may be the point where Russia "has" to back down before the court of public opinion drags them off to the execution wall...
Mum can I call you back I’m being shot at by a Ukrainian great grandmother toting a Kalashnikov and a surprisingly good aim.
I’m sure that’s exactly how it works in your head, in the real world I’m not sure any of that is applicable.
With ~200k Russian troops in Ukraine, troops families likely know they are in the Ukraine.
Lots of Ukraine is ethnic Russian, speak Russian and large parts are pro Russian..
Given the history I assume that the Russians don’t see what’s going on in the same way you do.
Propaganda and spin is a true weapon of war for all sides.
What’s going on is tragic and I wish wasn’t happening but it’s a far cry away from a notion that the leaking of alleged personal details of troops will stop this mess.
I’m sure we all wish your fantasy story could be true (although very warped if they have an attitude like it’s playing a video game).
The ordinary citizens of Russia probably don’t know what’s actually going on. That’s because they’re being fed the official government line through state media. If you don’t like what the news tells you on tv? Well tough, because you can only watch state media now. Yesterday the last independent tv channel was been shut down and the boss is gone. A radio station daring to report the ‘actual’ news has also forced off the airwaves.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-shutdown-tv-channel-invasion-b2026139.html
Same is true outside of Russia.
Dare to say something contrary to “consensus” then the msm and media sites will remove your views, deplatform you and make sure you can’t rejoin.
This is a good example of how it happens, maybe not as blunt but maybe worst as most people won’t know or notice it’s happened.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/08/google_climate_change/
Clearly I did consider it and chose not to.
There are a lot of sanctimonious tools out there who immediately jump to a wrong binary decision then hound you for no good reason.
I should add my statement applies to fanatical’s on media sites too, as a reminder this is what I wrote:
Dare to say something contrary to “consensus” then the msm and media sites will remove your views, deplatform you and make sure you can’t rejoin.
And this is what you came back with:
Ever considered putting your name where your mouth is?
I’m no Putin apologist or supporter, I’m no fan of Blair or Bush for their manufacturing justification to bomb the shit out if Iraq yet again so Bush could finish what his daddy started. Sadam did need to go though.
Not everything is black and white.
Posting anonymously gives me a voice without being cancelled in other non related Discussions as it seems you’d like to do.
As we don’t know each other my name really does not matter.
If i could be bothered i could set up burner accounts to post the same stuff I can do with just ticking AC.
Same is true outside of Russia.
Dare to say something contrary to “consensus” then the msm and media sites will remove your views, deplatform you and make sure you can’t rejoin.
This is a good example of how it happens, maybe not as blunt but maybe worst as most people won’t know or notice it’s happened.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/08/google_climate_change/
Hardly the same as effectively banning any news but your own to justify starting a WAR where people are dying through no fault of there own.
Pedant Mode On: …their own. Pedant Mode off.
You’re welcome.
Never mind war, where would we be without Grammar?
This is the secret of how the Second World War started when the grammar Nazis attacked Poland over a 30 sheet transparency governmental presentation with no full stops at the end of sentences.
With ~200k Russian troops in Ukraine, troops families likely know they are in the Ukraine.
Lots of them don't. Obviously it's currently hard to get facts, because Ukraine have a good reason to exaggerate and/or make Russia look bad. As do Western intelligence services, when they talk to journalists off the record. But there have been multiple claims of the Ukrainians contacting relatives of dead or captured soldiers to tell them what's happened - and those people haven't been informed by trhe Russian government - and didn't even know their relative was in combat.
As it happens probably 75% of Russia's front line combat troops are involved in the invasion. But seeing as Russian media isn't allowed to even call it a war, and the propoganda story is it's a limited special operation to stop Ukraine from slaughtering the population of Luhansk and Donetsk - so Russian TV doesn't even mention the attack from Belarus or Western Russia heading for Kyiv and Kharkiv.
But it's starting to look pretty clear that when Russia sent those troops to Belarus "on excercises" - they'd really told them they were excercises. Even many of the less senior officers. Some were even issued with return travel warrants. But had their mobiles taken, as gets done as standard with serious excercises now. So they could't tell their relatives. Many troops have claimed that they didn't even know they were invading until they realised they were inside Ukraine. There are loads of videos online of locals chatting to soldiers to corroborate that.
Ukraine's government have been very savvy about this. They're putting resources online so relatives can find out about who's been killed and capture. The Russian ministry of defence hadn't even admitted to taking a single casualty until yesterday. Now they've admitted to 500 Which suggests the US/UK estimates of about 2,000 are on the low side.
This is an army which has deployed mobile crematoria to the front! So heaven knows if that's to cover up their own casualties, or to cover up murdering any of Ukraine's government that they can capture? Seeing those can't have filled their soldiers with confidence...
"But it's starting to look pretty clear that when Russia sent those troops to Belarus "on exercises" - they'd really told them they were exercises."
One of the military commentators on the radio said that one of the reasons the convoy of armour heading towards Kyiv might be in difficulties was that if they were told it was a 'training exercise', they would not have been quite so concerned about ensuring everything was perfect before setting off. The officers would have just assumed that in an exercise they could get re-supplied with fuel, food, sanitary products etc. easily, or at least not under hostile fire. They might also have been much more careful about the order in which the convoy was arranged to avoid problems of supplies being in the wrong places. As a one time road runner / jogger, you don't prepare the same or as seriously if you are out for training run, as for the London Marathon.
I know that Russia is the aggressor in this, but I also* feel sorry for the Russian draftees sent on a 'training exercise' which turns out to be combat duty in a country where they may have close relatives and friends.
There does, however seem to be some resistance within the Russian FSB itself. The Independent reports that some anti-war FSB agents may have tipped off Zelensky's security forces about planned assassination attempts.**
*In the UK please go to dec.org.uk to contribute to the charitable fund to help Ukraine. The UK government is matching the first £40,000,000 of donations.
** https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-ukraine-zelensky-assassination-attempts-b2028963.html
"Given the history I assume that the Russians don’t see what’s going on in the same way you do."
Based on the news being broadcast inside Russia that leaks out to the rest of the world, no, Russians don't see it that way at all. They are being and have been, bombarded with stories that bear no resemblance to reality on the ground in Ukraine. To such an extent that many Russians actually believe what they see on state owned/sponsored media.
Unless you think the rest of the worlds media are all colluding on the same story, media from many different countries, all with their own spin on it, then I think I tend towards the "truth" being far closer to what the worlds media is telling us than what the Russian media is saying.
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As others have noted, the Russian public have been fed a diet of propaganda, lies and disinformation. Combined with the country's strong nationalism and a general human tendency to believe one's own side are the "good guys", you can bet very many are going to disbelieve such information from outsiders.
In particular, the parents in your story would- in reality- be the ones *most* likely to fall into that category. The older generations get the most "news" from traditional sources (i.e. print, television, radio) most likely to be state-controlled/controllable.
I've heard of Russian parents so indoctrinated, in denial or downright biased that they disbelieve what their children have told them *from personal experience*, some even going so far as to call them traitors.
So, no. Joking or not, it's very, *very* unlikely to play out as you think it would.
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"His mother"?
There's been quite a few of these calls where the man ringing his "mother" has neither seemed sincere nor true. I suspect they've been given a "mother" to call if they get caught and the endless "where are you?" "where can dad send the help parcels?", "how many of you were captured?"... questions are pumping for information.
"Mother" sounds very interested in stuff that no mother would care about, but his commander would be interested in. Past the propaganda value of letting a few phone home, I would not let them access comms or phone "mom".
Also the Russian battle plans have been captured, and sure enough they were approved back in January 16th. These soldiers on training exercises were clearly doing invasion training and their claims of innocence do not ring as authentic. They had clear formations and clear goals, and they did not just stumble around.
And then we come to Tucker Carlson, doing his well *timed* pro-Putin puff pieces, Laura Ingrahams doing anti Zelenskyy pieces. Now you have the timeline, you can see how those fit into the attack plan. You need to go look at what Traitor Tucker has been doing behind America's back.
And NATO what use are you? A military by committee, to oppose Russian aggression. You get the perfect opportunity, Russia invading a European country, and knocked back, and you fail. Miserably. Ukraine is getting bombed, it needs air cover and where the fook are you? In a committee meeting.
If more members join the NATO committee, you'll spend even longer chatting with more indicision and adding even more weak links who undermine resolve. NATO is useless.
If NATO members were invaded, you'd convince yourselves to not fight back and then say "well we're avoiding WW3, let Putin have East Germany, he promises to stop at the old wall".
You need to stop all passenger and commercial flights over Russian airspace now. Putin shot down the Malaysian airways passenger jet, simply so he could demonize Ukraine. As he gets desperate, he will shoot down passenger jets. No doubt NATO will hold some meetings about it and have some terse words to say. Maybe even a nasty email or two. That'll show Putin.
Better to not put your faith in NATO and instead avoid Russian airspace.
I think NATO expansion is the problem.
Ukraine is a former Russian province. As a reference Chernobyl is in Ukraine.
For a decades there was a determination to keep nations like Georgia, Ukraine etc out of NATO. Then that seemingly changed ~2008. And Russia got defensive. Ukraine in NATO is like Mexico or Canada joining the Warsaw Pact, homing Russian defence systems and participating in Russian military exercises.
Do you think the US would tolerate that?
The US, rightly in my view, had a huge fit when the Russians tried to put missiles in Cuba & now the equivalent is happening to Russia and they are not happy. They need Ukraine sea ports and birder in order to access the Mediterranean, a Ukraine in NATO and EU seriously damages Russias ability to be a seafaring nation with implications on global trade.
The Russians look to be enacting their version of the Monroe doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
Most of Ukraine is of Russian descent and Russian speaking.
I think the only useful outcome is an independent Ukraine, independent of NATO & independent of the EU.
Can you give any references to your claim that most of Ukraine is of Russian decent and Russian speaking? I have met quite a few Ukrainians and never heard that before.
Also, consider why NATO and EU has become so popular among Russia's neighbours. Even Finland seems to be mulling the former these days.
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/ukraine-russia-part-of-timeline-conflict-war-invasion-vladimir-putin-explained-1418901
Ukraine was part of the Russian empire for centuries, and was also part of the USSR.It became independent in 1991, when the Soviet Union dissolved after the Cold War.
There has been tension between Ukraine’s old ties to Russia and new allegiances with Western nations ever since.
It’s more like saying that Scotland is of British descent, or England or Wales are of British descent.
There is obviously and clearly a large population in Ukraine who claim to be russian and speak Russian as a first language and given the hundreds of years of being under the Russian umbrella many may claim today not to be of Russian descent but it’s not difficult to comprehend that just 30 years ago they where all Russian, just like the Scottish today are British citizens.
Up until 2020 many UK citizens where happy to claim to be European and of European descent. Did that descent suddenly stop being factual in 2021?
From the US perspective UK citizens are still European, yes continental Europe but no to European Union.
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Continental Europe?
You are quite right, I meant Continent of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#List_of_states_and_territories
As requested here is that map.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_polar_stereographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary.svg
Hawaii is clearly not in the same continent as the North American states but is a member of their union.
Here we go again. . .
Glib. Glib. Glib. Glib.
I look forward to you coming back on here with evidentiary support of your assertion that:
"Most of Ukraine is of Russian descent and Russian speaking".
Which works out at a minimum of 21,642,374 Russian speakers of Russian descent.
Which works out, almost precisely, with the script The Mad Putin would like a gullible West to believe.
Ever thought of fact checking and truth telling in regard to posting on here?
"I think the only useful outcome is an independent Ukraine, independent of NATO & independent of the EU."
The Ukraine currently is a democratic nation, independent of NATO and the EU. And look what Russia is doing without that protection.
The only "useful outcome" for Russia, you mean.
<blockquote.The Russians look to be enacting their version of the Monroe doctrine.</blockquote>
The Monroe doctrine was wishful thinking, not policy. The only way to enforce it was the British Royal Navy - the 19th Century US Navy was tiny. Which as happens, suited Britain - because having got almost exclusive control of North and South American markets during the Napoleonic War - Britain didn't need an empire there to be making a lovely profit. So keeping the rest of Europe out suited both the USA and Britain.
NATO didn't fight for Ukraine, because Ukraine's not in NATO. NATO will defend countries in NATO - that's the whole point of it. Strangely enough Russia has spent the last ten years busily persuading all its neighbours that the only way to be safe from Russia, is to be in NATO. It's a bit fucking stupid of Putin to complain about this, when it's the inevitable outcome of his own policies.
I fully agree with you.
Just adding one thing: Putin may or may not be fucking stupid (insane though is beyond doubt imho), and he may or may not feel threatened by a NATO's expansion towards east, and he may or may not grasp that his policies are the main driver for this.
But I believe he is scared shirtless of a rather well-functioning democracy next door of people closely interlinked with Russia. He is scared of Russians getting ideas of changing their government, of kicking out this criminal network that is ruling their country.
I firmly believe that he’s playing to a domestic audience that sees his star waning in the face of Russian Ultra Nationalist groups and no clear successor strong enough to keep Russia together.
The threat of NATO is a useful tool to garner support for his strong man tactics. Bear in mind that Russia has been invaded several times over and each time through Ukraine.
Germany must be pissing itself. Imagine the phone call to the German Defence Minister from NATO HQ…”Sorry…you want me to increase the size of our Armed Forces and march through Europe to Poland with a view to attacking Russia!? You sure this is what you guys want?”
Ukraine is a former Russian province occupied territory of the USSR.
FTFY
Hardly surprising that although a lot of Ukrainians have ties to Russia they are hardly welcoming Vlad and his invading army, although for welcoming one might look at the effectiveness of the anti-tank weapons the UK sent them.
Any nation has the right to join any treaty organization it wants to. Are Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia supposed to just hope that Russia doesn't invade, as they have done before? Should they not have joined NATO? Russia was the aggressor and these countries are defending themselves. Ukraine potentially joining NATO was no more a threat to Russian territory than any of these nations.
AC: "I think NATO expansion is the problem."
Really? I think the corrupt and thieving regime currently running Russia is the problem. Putin is scarred of democracy. He didn't want a successful, democratic country fighting internal corruption on Russian borders.
Lets face it, if you are a criminal who has ensured that you and your cronies can steal whatever they like from the country they 'run', you don't want to be next to a country that really can elect a Russian speaking jewish comedian* to the role of president just because thy want to.
*(In can you didn't know, Volodymyr Zelensky is a Jew, speaks Russian and played a role a comedy in which he accidentally becomes president of Ukraine.)
NATO's use is a deterrent against aggressors that might otherwise attack or even invade its member states.
It's a defensive organisation. It defends its members. It doesn't defend non-members. Like Ukraine.
It's got nothing to do with Russia. It's never attacked Russia, and it doesn't threaten Russia. If a NATO member attacks Russia then NATO won't get involved. If Russia doesn't attack a NATO member then Russia will never need to fear NATO.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO.
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Russians woke up this morning to find themselves unable to access non-Russian websites like Google, YouTube, WhatsApp and Instagram, all popular with Russian users.
Parent companies Alphabet and Meta have denied putting any blocks in place for Russian users and said they are investigating the source of the problem.
Source: Imaginary News Corp.
Anybody got a tank I can borrow and which way is Belgium ?
Topic - extension of policy by other means
Problem - too much carbon (not a real issue, politically motivated)
Reaction - ignore the Minsk Accord and weaponise the Ukraine
Solution - Russia clear the weapons and US/NATO/EU use sanctions to cripple the oil/gas supply and push prices through the roof.
Is The Register only interested in a single opinion here? Surely it’s CIA supplying the data on Russian soldiers
Although to be fair, the commentariat are generally more discerning and capable of fact checking than your average Facebook user. I do wonder why they bother posting propaganda here. They're on a hiding to nothing. Sure, some will believe them, but they will get a robust drubbing every time by the more intelligent posters, who I mainly enjoy reading and watching them take the propaganda apart.
Is The Register only interested in a single opinion here?
I don’t think so as this esteemed establishment normally asks for comment from both sides. The Russians might go a bit Apple on this one when asked for comment. As someone has posted a little earlier, ordinary Ruskies are just getting a diet of whatever Putin wants them to see via state media.
Surely it’s CIA supplying the data on Russian soldiers
Probably a hacker or hackers, Anonymous claim to have shut down the Russian space agency this morning https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/02/anonymous-hackers-claim-to-have-shut-down-russias-space-agency-16200645/
Not so much a gem as a shiny bit of conspiracy theory dross.
And vaguely familiar to those of us watching RT last Saturday, where the frequency of the appearances of a tame Chinese university 'academic' pressured by Beijing into lending his name and, er, status to anything that demonizes the USA and absolves Putin of all crimes was notable.
In his repeated 'news interview' with Russia Television, the Chinese prof opined that the USA had engineered the present situation by maneuvering Putin into a position where he had no option but to kill lots of people, thus triggering 'Western sanctions' aimed at crippling Russia's oil and gas industry.
America has "for many years" been wanting to sell its own oil and gas to Europe, but has been unable to compete on price because its own product is much more expensive (and there's also the additional cost of actually getting the stuff from the US into Europe.)
Having now maneuvered Putin into a position where Russia won't be able to supply oil and gas to Europe for much longer, the USA is poised to make countless $billions from its own exports.
America has knowingly done this at the cost of thousands of lives in Ukraine.
So: there y'are. That's the real truth about the Russian invasion. Putin didn't organise it; The White House did.
Or so says television channel RT (and the El Reg poster to whom I'm replying). Of course, as a source of amusement RT is still allowed to broadcast in the UK, albeit RT's counterpart, Russian State TV, is actually a lot less funny, pumping out to the nation hour upon hour of mini documentaries and alleged 'news bulletins' using actors and Russian TV crews (directors, cameramen, writers, sound recordists, etc) all of whom risk being 'disappeared' by Putin's former employer if they don't play along.
The Russian people-- unless they're young, smart and tech savvy -- have no option but to watch and believe the assorted fictions presented by Kremlin controlled media, so for millions of 'em the impact of the sanctions is going to be a fulfillment of everything they were ever told about the evil West and the demonic America. Not wishing to start World War III -- a conflict of which Putin, as insulated from reality by his own madness as much as Hitler was, has no fear -- the West has a weaponless armory. Only economic sanctions.
Folks unaware of what life and death in Russia is actually like are the ones appear to be reading much too much into the tale of the 20,000 Russian soldiers' data leak. In their innocence they think the leak will somehow make a difference, with the Russian military machine embarrassed to the point of disablement.
If I could but only fix 'em up with a flight to St Petersburg, where 'ordinary' (and noticeably young) Russians are organising repeated 'stop-the-war' protests, they'd see that a carefully aimed club or gun butt to smash the cheek or nose is the police (nowadays an extension of that military machine) response to anyone disagreeing with Putin. The police are not, er, embarrassed by anything even though the vast majority would likely very much prefer to pull a sickie on those days when anti-war protestors get together to speak out against the narcissistic psychopathic KGB thug running their country. However, the names, addresses and family members of all police employees are known to the domestic intelligence service. . . and when they ring an officer's mother and / or relatives, it ain't funny in the slightest.
There is no freedom to think or to speak in Russia under Putin. No freedom to live, either, for any who oppose him. Adolescent YouTube style 'dialogs' of the kind posted on here between a Russian soldier and his mother in a failed attempt at misplaced humor betray only immaturity, and a breathtaking ignorance of actual reality.
"too much carbon (not a real issue, politically motivated)"
Not a real issue? Only if you are completely ignorant.
The problem with increasing carbon in the atmosphere was known in the mid 19th century.
To attribute concern over climate change to politics is idiotic.
I watched a Youtube video yesterday of Ronald Reagan telling Soviet era jokes. One of them seemed just as appropriate today.
An American dog, a Polish dog and a Russian dog meet and are talking.
American dog: If you bark and bark they'll come and give you meat.
Polish dog: What's meat?
Russian dog: What's bark?
Well, sadly I can't upload a screenshot of the link on Telegram that was included in the article. The one that links to the Telegram account of "The itarmyofurraine."
Urraine? WTF is Urraine?
Please tell me the average Ukrainian isn't as dumb as most of my fellow Americans. Please.
And nothing has changed. :'(
Geneva 1949, Article 13. Prohibition against exposing prisoners to public curiosity.
Just like in Guantánamo
I know we're not talking (just) prisoners here, but serving soldiers have parents, kids and friends just like the rest of us.
They are responsible for the conduct of operations, not for the political decisions that lead to them.
This applies whether you're fighting for Britain, the US, Russia, North Korea or Cape Verde.
Quote: "As Russia's invasion of Ukraine progresses, or not, cyber-attacks orchestrated by or for the benefit of the Kremlin against Ukraine and the West appear limited"
Part (a fairly large but optimistic part) of me hopes this is because the informed hacker groups not directly controlled by greed or insanity are as appalled as everyone else and are trying their very best not to get sucked into this mess on realising just how horrible it can get.
To all affected by this - all of my hopes, wishes and as much £ as I can personally afford until this ends I pledge to you and yours.
The Russian military appear to have shot themselves in the foot, metaphorically speaking:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/russian-troops-can-t-use-era-encrypted-phone-system-in-ukraine-because-they-destroyed-4g-masts-says-expert/ar-AAUMGV6?cvid=6b0ba0f6e1e54c0ce4f43e19d282ddac&ocid=winp1taskbar
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