US grounds investors in Chinese drone maker DJI over 'Xinjiang human rights abuses' The US Treasury today banned American investment in eight entities – including prosumer drone maker DJI – that Uncle Sam claims are “part of the Chinese military-industrial complex” and active participants in surveillance and repression of the Muslim Uyghur minority in Xinjiang province. “Private firms in China’s defense and …
shouldn't throw stones. America has a long & unacceptable history of abusing the African-American members of it's populace. Or have you forgotten that whole "Civil War" part of your history?
You can block doing business that benefits other nations, but don't for a nanosecond try to pretend you have the ethical nor moral high ground from which to throw stones. You've spent far too long using slave labour digging yourself into that particular latrine pit to be able to see up over the top.
It is completely the wrong thing to do, since sanctioning Xinjiang industries leads to unemployment and reduction of quality of life for Uyghurs, who are not being forced to work but are employed in the normal sense by industries in Xinjiang.
This propaganda about Uyghur slave labour is completely without basis as no facts support the US accusations (fabrications) of genocide, human rights abuses and other nonsense.
It is also hypocritical, for if the US was truly serious about human rights it would sanction every israeli security and military company profiting from the occupation of Palestine.
Neither.
Either you are uninformed of the fact-based reality or your anti-Chinese bias is so hardwired through decades of western media brainwashing that all you're capable of are logic-free ad hominems.
Present a reasoned argument and verifiable facts , or shut up.
(PS.: It seems that every viewpoint that does not conform to western Anti-Chinese propaganda is followed by shrill screams of "Chinese Shill" and "50 cent army" but never any facts or rational discourse. I'm expecting the discussions on this forum to proceed in that direction)
The point is not we or anyone else did it in the past. Look far enough, and everyone has blood on their hands. The point is that it is recognized as wrong today, and were it to happen anywhere, including in the US, people of the US would (again, not every single one in the US, just to be sure you do not come up with an example of "but so so American said nothing") speak out against it while living in the US . There is no great firewall that would remove references to balloons of a certain orange haired biped floating around, like there is a great firewall in China that removes references to too many things to count.
>like there is a great firewall in China that removes references to too many things to count.
Like Facebook, Twitter and countless other Western media organisations who censor things under state mandate on a daily basis?
Yet we wail and gnash our teeth at that horrible old "Great Firewall of China"?
Sounds like hypocrisy to me ...
This post has been deleted by its author
They are largely not directed to "censor" under "state mandate". They are private corporations with their own (admittedly often twisted) interests. For someone complaining about a lack of evidence and finger-pointing, I see the exact same conduct from you when it benefits you.
You are making a false equivalency anyway. Some private corps potentially censoring information (what information? when?) meanwhile the PRC is blocking access to entire websites that do not fit its political narrative, regularly pays thousands upon thousands of people to spew Chinese propaganda online, and forces its populace to use backdoored and ACTUALLY CENSORED state-sponsored and sometimes state-run websites? How is that even in the same ballgame? It's not even in the same stadium.
Begone, tankie. We see your ploys.
How thoroughly brainwashed you are.
Every day we get reports of the US and UK governments SHUTTING DOWN ENTIRE WEBSITES.
And this is not censorhip of the EXACT same nature and scale as that carried out by the PRC?
My God, you're a sheep!
Begin here, and educate yourself out of your State induced coma:
https://fair.org/home/us-censorship-is-increasingly-official/
"The Biden administration made headlines last week as it moved to shut down the websites of 33 foreign media outlets, including ones based in Iran, Bahrain, Yemen and Palestine. Officials justified the decision by claiming the organizations were agents of “disinformation.”
The most notable of these is probably English-language Iranian state broadcaster Press TV. Visitors to PressTV.com are now met with the seal of the Department of Justice and the FBI, and a message notifying them that the domain “has been seized by the United States government.” (The site has since migrated to an Iranian-based domain, PressTV.ir.)"
Good grief ...
And another point:
Your claim that these media organisations are carrying out their censorship simply exercising their own internal policies is a lie.
In fact, all these big internet media organisations are PRESSURED either directly or indirectly by state or state-affiliated organisations, of which the following is just one well known case:
https://theintercept.com/2020/11/14/zoom-censorship-leila-khaled-palestine/
"Khaled, 76, is a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a resistance group and political party that the U.S. government lists as a foreign terrorist organization. She rose to prominence after her role in two plane hijackings in 1969 and 1970 — and as the first woman to hijack a plane she has since earned global recognition, regarded as a terrorist by some and a feminist icon by others. On September 23, Khaled, who has long spoken in solidarity with liberation movements worldwide, was one of several speakers set to participate in a seminar on gender and resistance narratives at SFSU, a public university. But the seminar became the target of a coordinated campaign by pro-Israel groups, which pressured both the university and Zoom to cancel it.
In response to the pressure, Zoom argued to SFSU officials that the seminar might have violated federal laws and therefore the company’s terms of service, by providing “material support” for terrorism. It ultimately canceled the event the day before it was scheduled to take place. Zoom’s actions were followed by Facebook, which removed the livestream link, as well as a page advertising the event, and threatened to shut down the pages of the event’s sponsors, and by YouTube, which shut down the livestream 23 minutes after the event had started. The New York Post reported last week that the U.S. Department of Education is now conducting a probe into SFSU’s invitation to Khaled, on the grounds that it “violated civil rights rules and the conditions of federal grants the university received.”"
Another obvious example is that of Wikileaks and the fate of Julian Assange and many others.
If you still believe there is no state pressure serving as the guiding force behind Western Media self-censorship you are simply misinformed - the evidence is in the public domain.
In fact, Western media censorship is far worse and far more terrifying than the CPCs state censorship: At least the common Chinese understands the mandate comes from the State ... while in the West, Media Oligarchs WILLINGLY CHOOSE CENSORSHIP even while claiming they enjoy freedom of the press!
> The point is not we or anyone else did it in the past. Look far enough, and everyone has blood on their hands. The point is that it is recognized as wrong today,
That is not the point either.
The point is there is no Uyghur genocide going on, or human rights abuses perpetrated against the Uygur as a whole or poor treatment of the Uygur that can be construed as a form of racial discrimination.
It's all Yank and Brit propaganda.
You mean that civil war that was a direct result of one side wanting to keep said slavery and the other side wanting to abolish it? The civil war that ended with the side wanting to abolish slavery actually doing so? You'd have had more of a point if you'd pointed at the "Jim Crow" laws and segregation policies that came after. But even then, those aren't comparable to what's happening in China to the Uygur minority.
And the reality is that even though the US is doing far from perfect when it comes to handling the whole skintone issue, it's MILES and MILES ahead of where it was and even further ahead of how China is handling it's minorities (the Uygurs aren't the only ones)
IMHO the question shouldn't be "why is the US the one doing this" but "why isn't everybody else".
> " ... and even further ahead of how China is handling it's minorities (the Uygurs aren't the only ones)"
You're out of your mind. The US handled it's minorities so well most of them are extinct, or on reservations" ("re-education camps" - without the "re-education" bit).
The CPC's handling of Chinese minorities is simply excellent, based on the hard facts available. The US doe not compare.
The rest of your tripe doesn't bear a response , suffice to say the US was built on slavery, whether "North" or "South" while China never built it's economy on slavery. Even the abolition of American slavery simply lead to a century of effective Apartheid and legally supported racism until the civil rights movement led by people like MLK managed to win better treatment of minorities.
This is hilarious and clearly paints your true aims (or your complete lack of knowledge) if you think Native reservations are "re-education camps". They are given the ability to enforce their own local law, have their own police forces even. They are protected under Common Law of the US and usually nothing more, giving them lots of freedom to do as they wish. Hardly "re-education camps" as the people inside are 1. free to leave at any time and 2. only allowed to be there in the first place if they are a Native or have enough of a lineage to them.
Just stop. You are not gaining any ground with these propaganda posts.
Irrelevant Bunk.
You could make the same argument of the Uyghurs ... so Why don't you? See how it works:
Uyghurs in Xinxiang are:
- given the ability to enforce their own local law, have their own police forces even.
- They are protected under Common Law of the PRC and usually nothing more, giving them lots of freedom to do as they wish.
- Hardly "re-education camps" as the Uyguirs inside are 1. free to leave at any time
... and well, to parrallel your point 2. allowed to be there or anywhere in the PRC in the first place if they are born in the PRC.
And these are indisputable FACTS. The similarity to the Native American situation ends here though:
Now, none of these are enough to change the fact that Native Americans have been and are the victims of an ongoing genocide, and here is just a fraction of the evidence that this genocide is still ongoing and is indeed in it's late stages:
1. https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/11/01/uprooted-the-1950s-plan-to-erase-indian-country
"In the 1950s, the United States came up with a plan to solve what it called the "Indian Problem."
It would assimilate Native Americans by moving them to cities and eliminating reservations.
The 20-year campaign failed to erase Native Americans, but its effects on Indian Country are still felt today. "
2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/03/13/5-ways-the-government-keeps-native-americans-in-poverty/?sh=5b50a6832c27
3. https://www.counterpunch.org/2001/06/13/indian-affairs/
4. https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/09/15/the-native-american-the-palestinian-a-spirited-fight-for-justice/
5. https://www.history.com/topics/native-american-history/indian-reservations
6. https://networkadvocates.org/recommittoracialjustice/legacy/
Just stop. You are not gaining any ground with these propaganda posts.
Again, referencing past events that are nowadays acknowledged by the majority as indeed being abhorent and objectionable as a "whataboutism" for saying there apparently can't be criticism on current events happening now.
"The CPC's handling of Chinese minorities is simply excellent, based on the hard facts available. The US doe not compare"
Right. Is that why they have hundreds of prison camps there, holding (an approximated) 10% or more of the total population of this minority? Because of this "excellent" treatment?
The reason there is so little hard evidence is that the CPC is VERY careful on allowing any information out of the region. They hold tight control over anyone travelling into or out of the region (especially foreigners) and their 'great' firewall keeps a tight lid on any digital information. Just like they do on events like Tiananman square. Or chairman Mao's little oopsies that killed millions (such as the Four Pests campaign). But there is enough evidence to conclude there must be something very wrong. We might not be able to see the proverbial flames directly, but there's certainly enough smoke to know it's unlikely it's anything other than a fire.
>"Right. Is that why they have hundreds of prison camps there, holding (an approximated) 10% or more of the total population of this minority? Because of this "excellent" treatment?"
WRONG.
There are no prison camps of the type you mention.
Why? Because there is no evidence of them.
Where are they located precisely? What are their names? What evidence has been found that these specific locations are prison camps. Cite. Your. Sources.
Present the evidence or shut up.
Your next screed made me snort my coffee through my nose:
>"The reason there is so little hard evidence is that the CPC is VERY careful on allowing any information out of the region."
You are out of your mind. Do you seriously believe that the magical CPC is capable of hiding a so called GENOCIDE under the very noses of a constant stream of tourists who visit EVERY part of Xinjiang? Do you seriously expect us to believe that American and European satellite surveillance can not pick up evidence of a genocide on that scale?
This is magical thinking on your part. You are appealing to your imagination, not to your logical and rational capabilities.
Also, the story presented by the Western Propaganda media and their lackeys was that at one point 1 million or more were incarcerated in these imaginary 'prison camps' which translates to your 10% figure.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to hide a prison population of 1 million in internment camps! In no genocide or mass murder in the modern era has this ever been possible, even before the advent of space based surveillance.
To give you an idea of the scale of 1 million people, consider the prison camp of the Gaza Strip with its 2 million incarcerated Muslims surrounded by a Zionist occupation fence. It is unmissable. Unconcealable despite all attempts by the zionist occupation to do so.
What makes you think the CPC is capable of achieving what the israeli colonial occupation has not been able to do?
So again, present real evidence, and not voodoo ... or shut up.
It's hard to disagree based on what's happened in the US in living memory, but I find it hard to accept bringing up things so far in the past that not only have things changed, but there's no one left alive from when it happened, neither victims nor perpetrators.
After all, no one is screaming for the descendants of Rome to apologise for slavery or pay reparations.
Other than that, I agree with you.
Why is China being sanctioned over a fictitious 'genocide' and fictional human rights abuses while israel hosts entire gulags full of muslims for which the evidence of ethnic cleansing is indisputable ?
It's clear this has nothing to do with the Uyghurs and everything to do with Uncle Sam's sheer terror of China as a rising power ...
Next you'll be telling us the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and the massacre that followed never occurred, that Hong-Kong protests where just some thugs being disorderly, and that Winnie the Pooh is just a cartoon character on CCTV (China Central Television, a name as apt as it could ever be)
No I'm not. I've decided to start posting after years of reading the absurd garbage posted on these forums by "I.T" people - people you'd expect to have an appreciation for informed, fact-based and rational thought.
I was raised in "The West", sorry you're wrong.
>Intelligent people are on these forums.
Not really. I have yet to see an appeal for facts and evidence on these forums when it comes to matters regarding Russia, China, Iran, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and other such polarising issues.
Fact is, for the 21 years I've been reading El Reg the forums have been filled with I.T type idiots who discard any attempt at rational thought once they step out of their technical domain. The capability for intelligent views on politics and history ends at the network perimeter ...
Even if it was true that Israel was hosting gulags for muslims (they aren't) or that they were doing ethnic cleansing (they aren't) your first line is a pointless whatabout-ism. "What do you mean I can't kick puppies? Look at those guys clubbing baby seals!"
There's plenty of criticism to be leveled at the whole Israël-Palestina conflict but gulags or ethnic cleansing certainly aren't the right terms to be using.
"sheer terror of China as a rising power" -> As any sane person should, since they're already demonstrating with the whole Uygur "issue" they can't be trusted with that power.
> Even if it was true that Israel was hosting gulags for muslims ...
The Gaza Strip is a Gulag, possibly worse, so there's no "Even If".
> or that they were doing ethnic cleansing (they aren't)
Yes. They. Are. This is incontrovertible fact.
>"Your first line is a pointless whatabout-ism."
It is neither whataboutism, nor pointless. It demonstrates hypocrisy of the very people who criticise China over *rumours* while ignoring an *actual* event perpetrated by their western allies.
You're confused between "pointing out hypocrisy" and "whataboutism", probably deliberately so.
> "since they're already demonstrating with the whole Uygur "issue" they can't be trusted with that power."
There. Is. No. Uyghur. Issue. It's all American/British propaganda.
So, if you claim China "can't be trusted" with that power, then you must admit that the Brits and the Yanks can't be trusted with it either, and therefore have no moral high ground to judge China.
[citations needed]
Gaza strip is not a forced labour camp, nor a prison camp. So not a gulag. Not a nice place to live certainly either. As for "incontrovertible fact" they're committing ethnic cleansing: [citation needed]. You're the one claiming crimes against humanity here. Evidence please. And from an independent 3rd party, not from Hamas or Hamas affiliated organisations. Who actually WOULD commit mass genocide against the Jews if given the slightest chance and have proven not to give 2 shits about truth or accurate reporting if it makes them look better or Israël worse. If Israël is doing ethnic cleansing, with an average population growth of 30% in the Palestine areas over the past 10 years they're certainly doing a very shitty job of it.
If you're going to accuse Israël of serious crimes, please do so with regard to reality. Plenty of things to actually accuse them of and be correct. It's not exactly being a beacon of humanity. Plenty of things to accuse the Palestinians and Hamas for and be correct too.
But we were talking about China. Not the Levant
This whole discussion however is still pointless whataboutism.
You're not pointing out hypocracy, you're going "look over there instead of over here". (And ignoring the criticism regularly leveled against Israël). That's whatabout-ism.
So in that light: If there is no issue, why are there so many of what appear to be massive prisons and labour camps in the region? Why are there hundreds if not thousands of people claiming they were physically and sexually abused? Why are there accounts of Uygur women being forced to use contraceptives or get sterilized even when the Han majority is encouraged to increase birth rates?
Right, because there is no issue according to the CCP there is no Uygur issue (or there won't be in a few years time anyway). It looks like not everyone agrees with that view
Your attempt to LIE away the reality of Gaza is the equivalent of holocaust denial.
It is a long established fact that Gaza is a concentration camp and there are mounds of evidence and rationale to support it, beginning with:
https://www.juancole.com/2015/07/amira-blunt-concentration.html
"Hass on Freedom of Movement in the Occupied Territories: A Concentration Camp?
When I think of all my friends in Gaza … not only my friends…that haven’t been out of the Gaza Strip for the past 20 years … they are deprived of so many basic things, because Israel deprives them of peace, (the) basic right of freedom of movement.
I’m not talking about food. I’m not talking about even the water situation in Gaza, which is appalling and disastrous. I’m talking about the very basic need of people to travel, to move, to see other places, to have both the ability to plan or the ability to be spontaneous. The Palestinians are deprived of all this.
In practice, Gaza has become a huge, let me be blunt, concentration camp for right now 1, 800,000 people. This is not a novelty. This is not something new. This did not start, unlike what many people think, with the rise of Hamas, Hamas being elected in 2006, or Hamas taking over the security agencies and apparatus in Gaza in 2007 after the short civil war. We can almost trace it to the moment when it started, and this is the 15th of January 1991 — long before Oslo, long before Madrid, and of course long before the suicide attacks inside Israeli cities and against Israeli civilians.
This policy of sealing off Gaza, of making Gazans into prisoners, defacto prisoners, started then. I’ve written extensively about it and yet I know it always surprises.
In 1991 Israel started a policy, which you can compare to the past system in South Africa. Israel started to oblige Palestinians to have a permit in order to move from one place to another within the country. Until 1991, Israel more or less acknowledged the right of Palestinians to freedom of movement. It acknowledged for its own reasons, it’s own purposes, but the fact remained that Palestinians enjoyed relatively normal freedom of movement within the country that the Israeli government already controlled since 1967 — that is from the river to the sea."
These are facts, not myths. Not rumours. Unlike the Uygur 'genocide' myths being told in the west and supported by people like you.
> The Gaza Strip is a Gulag, possibly worse, so there's no "Even If".
> Yes. They. Are. This is incontrovertible fact.
You demand evidence - despite the press reports brimming over about the Uyghur genocide, and numerous governments and NGOs having declared China is engaged in a genocide of the Uyghur people - yet don't seem prepared to provide evidence yourself of your assertions.
So, how much are you being paid?
> You demand evidence - despite the press reports brimming over about the Uyghur genocide,
Since when are press reports evidence?
> and numerous governments and NGOs having declared China is engaged in a genocide of the Uyghur people
So declaring a genocide is enough to make it so? Nonsense.
Evidence is Evidence. "Declarations" are not Evidence.
These NGOs are funded by bodies known to affiliated with American and British state agencies with a history of destabilization operations in the global south?
Further, these NGOs have often been found to have links with ETIM, the islamic extremist movement funded by the West with the goal of destabilisting Xinjiang.
They have ZERO credibility.
> yet don't seem prepared to provide evidence yourself of your assertions.
Provide evidence of what? I am not the one making allegations of Genocide.
So again ... Where is the evidence of Uyghur genocide in Xinjiang?
- Where are the millions of Uygurs streaming over the borders into neighbouring countries?
- Where are the sattellite images of mass graves in Xinjiang?
- Where are the western tourist reports of Uygurs being butchered in the streets?
- Where is the list of Uyghurs executed in mass killings ?
You can present none because the entire narrative is a fiction created by the the Anglo-American propaganda complex.
> Provide evidence of what? I am not the one making allegations of Genocide.
There. Right there is showing your dishonesty:
@archbungle wrote:
> Even if it was true that Israel was hosting gulags for muslims ...The Gaza Strip is a Gulag, possibly worse, so there's no "Even If".
> or that they were doing ethnic cleansing (they aren't)
Yes. They. Are. This is incontrovertible fact.
> Since when are press reports evidence?
Are you that stupid? Press reports cite the evidence they are reporting. They include eye witness statements, references to reports, drone footage, satellite footage, internal CCP documentation.
> So declaring a genocide is enough to make it so? Nonsense.
See above.
> Where are the sattellite images of mass graves in Xinjiang?
Genocide doesn't require mass executions. Forcibly sterilising the population so they can't reproduce is just as effective as mass murder. Putting everyone in prison is just as effective as mass murder. There are plenty of satellite images and drone images and, yes, the odd tourist taking photos, of mass concentration camps for Uyghurs.
> - Where are the western tourist reports of Uygurs being butchered in the streets?
You think they let tourists into these areas?
It's China, not Europe, there is no such thing as free movement.
Even then. there are some photos from some tourists of the conentration camps.
The CCP doesn't need to resort to butchering in public. They have industrialised the roudning up and herding into these internment camps of millions of Uyghurs, where sterilisations, indoctrination, and anything else they want to do to the Uyghurs can occur hidden, out of sight in these internment camps.
> You can present none because the entire narrative is a fiction created by the the Anglo-American propaganda complex.
Your entire argument is factless, incoherent, and a plain lie, taking straight from the propoganda booklet of the CCP. I ask yet again, are you receiving money from the CCP or an agency or related body thereof? Are you a paid shill?
Islamic extremists are definitely not funded by "the west" as they are all kinds of opposed to it
Any that exist are adequately funded by "rogue-factions" in cash-rich Islamic nations in the middle east.
Also, prove that ETIM exists without reference to sources provided by the CCP or any of its associated and affiliated organisations.
ETIM is a myth created by the Sino-Russian propaganda complex to justify the "Re-Education" and "Enhanced Monitoring" of an indigenous minority who do not share the same religious background.
You are ridiculous.
Not so much for posting from AP, an organisation with a documented and illustrious history of propaganda dissemination but for ignoring three simple facts:
- The PRC has been taking draconian birth control measures OUT OF NECESSITY for ALL it's ethnic groups INCLUDING THE Majority HAN!!!
- This AP report simply tells FABLES WITH NO SUBSTANTIATION.
- The population numbers of ALL ETHNIC GROUPS IN CHINA have been falling for years in response to the one-child policy (adopted out of necessity.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GENOCIDE!
Let me rephrase: POPULATION CONTROL OF ONES OWN PEOPLE IS NOT GENOCIDE!
I speculate that you westerners all have the same apparently congenital disease: You accept your media reports as God's own truth while decrying all non-western media as propaganda. That's the only way I can understand your apparent lack of critical thinking around western media reports.
This is not evidence. This is a news report.
All ethnic groups in China have been under a birth control policy since the 1980s, including Han Chinese.
As a consequence, the birth rates of ALL ethnic groups have dropped over the years until recently when the one-child policy was revoked.
In fact, the Uyghur have been under a less strict birth control policy than even the Han ... So, would your unsubstantiated claims of 'genocide' extend to the Han as well ?
Also ignored in the report is the fact that the birth control policy also provided channels to apply for waiver from the single-child policy - and that the single child policy was overall not strictly enforced.
The “Uyghur genocide” story has been made up by a guy called “Adrian Zenz” (German anthropologist). He is a fanatic “Christian”.
According to him the availability of contraceptives resulted in a massive genocide, due to potential children not being born. I kid you not. In that region, they still have a birthrate that is much higher than in Western countries, but oh – they do not have ten or twelve children that often anymore.
The whole story is so stupid that I can recommend reading into it as comedy.
Much as I loathe your presence, your posts are still here. Freedom means letting even the obvious sympathizers say their bit. Can you say that about your lovely China that blocks words from being said on its social media platforms, actively participating in enforcing its own dictatorship-in-disguise?
Meanwhile, our loyal vulture overlords will process your trite as they are able.
"What is this "Submitted and awaiting moderation ..." nonsense I get when posting on this forum?"
Didn't you read the T&Cs before signing up? Moderation of new posters has been standard practice here for years. It's to prevent spammers and (some) trolls posting with new accounts every time they get caught and banned.
"Why should I have to? If it's really free speech there should be no review or T&Cs."
It's not "free speech". "free speech" doesn't allow you to use other peoples systems or resources as you see fit for your "free speech". If you want truly "free speech", get your own soap box and say what you want to whatever audience you manage to attract. The fact there are T&Cs you are supposed to read before signing up for the forums should tell you, even without reading them, that you don't get "free speech" here. It's fairly free, but not absolutely free.
After all, if it was "free speech" here, you'd never find the comments in the avalanche of spam!
>It's not "free speech". "free speech" doesn't allow you to use other peoples systems or resources as you see fit for your "free speech".
Nonsense. I am allowed only one facility of this "system" and that is to express my opinions in a little text box.
There is no way I could abuse this other than expressing opinions others do not like and would like to censor - which is the purpose of the "moderation".
And the "Spam" defense is nonsense - that is why we have automated spam detection technology like akismet It can be processed in milliseconds after posting without the need for human moderation.
On a different tack, I don't think the US investment money, printed by US hard working presses or the digital equivalent, should be invested in China rather than investing in the US or other countries that need to develop their own industries - consumer drones being one example.
That's not being anti-Chinese. That's being pro-tech and pro-opportunity for the youth in countries outside China.
>I don't think the US investment money, printed by US hard working presses or the digital equivalent, should be invested in China rather than investing in the US or other countries that need to develop their own industries
There is no going back now. The Western countries have forever lost the primary and secondary industry market. All they're capable of now is "services" and some very specialised high tech.
Should they attempt to move industries back from China, they will simply be out-competed and lose market share globally, being only able to supply their own populations but unable to compete in the global market with China. In effect, they would have embraced a form of Socialism by doing this.
No other non-western countries have the scale and technical expertise to match China in industrial production. So moving industries there is not profitable for the west.
Relevant: https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2021/11/19/nobody-who-says-you-can-criticize-washington-and-beijing-actually-does/
"The US empire has killed millions and displaced tens of millions in its still-ongoing global “war on terror” since 9/11. It is circling the planet with hundreds of military bases, its sanctions and blockades are starving people to death en masse every single day, and it actively works to destroy any nation whose government disobeys its commands.
Nothing China is doing rises anywhere near this level of evil, either within its own borders or on the world stage. This is evident even if you believe every single claim the western empire has been asserting about the Chinese government’s behavior (which would of course be a very silly thing to do)."
It has been long known that the military industrial complex is the biggest threat to any democracy.
...but pointing fingers does not help anyone when the finger being pointed is in defense of another country with its own military industrial complex. Do you know how much money is invested into the Chinese military? How many tens of thousands are regularly brought in to reserve and active forces? What about China's regular state-funded military parades to show off its incredible might and prowess, is that simply to be ignored?
>What about China's ... is that simply to be ignored?
Well the US et al have been largely ignoring it for decades. If memory serves me right we've been outsourcing to stuff, in a big way, to China since the mid 1980's when investors were encouraged to invest in emerging markets such as Hong Kong (acceptable front door to China) and business started offshoring to places such as China...
The worst part for me is that there are a huge number of incredible craftsmen that have emerged out of the Chinese intellectual theft and sweatshop economy, but getting to those vendors still requires you to support the regime in some manner. I like a number of the brands on SHENZENAUDIO for example, and have had one on one interaction with some of their staff, and they're all pleasant, smart people, yet stuck in an ecosystem that I would rather not support.
Do I shelve my curiosities and worldly desires to decry a despotic government, or do I enjoy its and its peoples' spoils and fund the machine? This is the position most of the world is in that is in relations with China, I think, including those in the Belt and Road Initiative.
Here's a novel idea:
Why not put your priorities in the right order and point the fingers at the biggest culprits?
You fear China's military expenditure while ignoring the actual reality of Western military intervention across the globe.
Do you raise concerns about the 'israeli' military industrial complex and their activities in Palestine?
Do you raise concerns about the Saudi and UAE military complex and their destruction of Yemen?
What about your own country's involvement and it's naval parades in the South China Sea?
What about the NATO Cabal and their constant and buffoonish attempts to incite WW3 with Russia?
I doubt you do. Instead, you raise 'concerns' about a Country that has rarely engaged in military activities outside its borders in the last 70 years!
How ridiculous is that?
China is the last country on earth one should be concerned about - unless it's being provoked by the Anglo-American Neo-Imperial complex and it's "Five Eyes" old boys club ...
>China is the last country on earth one should be concerned about
No!
Remember Chinna plays the long game, something our leaders are incapable of. Given the way china invests in other nations, albeit in ways similar to the US, and its non-recognition of post-WWII national boundaries, I suspect in the long-term we (including the USA) will probably be reporting to Bejing...
"you raise 'concerns' about a Country that has rarely engaged in military activities outside its borders in the last 70 years!"
Helps when you get good at re-defining your borders to include the places you are engaging in military activities
As has been said before, no hands are clean, and the "Five-Eyes" you talk about are just 5 nations separated by a common language they only got through imperial expansion, and they are quite often greater separated by it than joined.
NATO is no Cabal, is a loose formation that was originally formed to relieve the soviet blockade of west berlin, and quite frankly is more of a talking shop than an effective alliance, and is mainly used as an overarching organisation, to allow action that has been stalled in the UN Security Council by Either Russia or the PRC.
You make points of other situations that are far from politic, and there is considerable support for action against, yet still, you fail to provide proof of your arguments against their being an issue in Xinjiang or make any statement to mitigate the reports featured.
Why not put your priorities in the right order and point the fingers at the biggest culprits?
I don't see how that helps when all parties are at fault, but okay.
You fear China's military expenditure while ignoring the actual reality of Western military intervention across the globe.
I fear China's continual expanse and quiet control of nations and states via incurring massive debts and placing strategic outposts around the globe. I despise Western (in your case focused on the US) military intervention and wish they would stop. They act like they are the saviors of the modern world.
Do you raise concerns about the 'israeli' military industrial complex and their activities in Palestine?
Yes. The Middle East in general is a constant hotbed of human rights abuses and potential warcrimes, all in the name of a stretch of dead earth that no one else gives a shit about and long-dead religious figures. None of it is any kind of excuse for the kinds of atrocities committed in the name of their gods and their goals. For your clarification, I am talking about both sides. And when the guillotine falls, the ones that lose the most are the civilians, of course.
Do you raise concerns about the Saudi and UAE military complex and their destruction of Yemen?
See above.
What about your own country's involvement and it's naval parades in the South China Sea?
You are assuming I'm of the United States. While correct, don't assume my position based on that. The US has no reason to be doing about 80% of the military action it is, and is only doing so to at the behest/to further the coffers of the defense contractors and arms dealers that make a killing (ha) off of war.
What about the NATO Cabal and their constant and buffoonish attempts to incite WW3 with Russia?
NATO doesn't have much power in and of itself, but the aggression toward Russia has been somewhat untoward. Nor am I in support of the nonsense that often goes on at the UN. Of course, one cannot ignore China's pandering to both Ukraine and Russia in an attempt to stay on good trading terms with Ukraine and continue to get support from Russia. China is not innocent here, though they may act like it. (Aside: Best case solution would be for Ukraine to chill out and abide by the treatise they signed to avoid an all-out war; this time they will lose more than Crimea and Donbas, as Russia already has its foot in the door and has spread dissent throughout the nation.)
I doubt you do. Instead, you raise 'concerns' about a Country that has rarely engaged in military activities outside its borders in the last 70 years!
You show your true colors. China's consistent and obvious expansion and growth of power outside of its borders, militaristic in nature or not, is a cause for concern. Their massive army and constant development of new tech is a cause for concern. Their grip on a significant portion of the world's production is a cause for concern. If you don't see that, you are either blind or attempting to push your own agenda. Being the lesser of evils does not miraculously make an evil a good, and being the lesser evil only because you lie and deceive and distract and work outside of the limelight (or redirect it) doesn't help.
I am not saying other countries and nations are not guilty of the same things China are doing, because many are. But China is finding and utilizing footholds where no one else even has a chance to step—either that or they are very good at making it seem like they are, and are faking it until they make it.
How ridiculous is that?
I agree, your pandering is pretty ridiculous.
China is the last country on earth one should be concerned about - unless it's being provoked by the Anglo-American Neo-Imperial complex and it's "Five Eyes" old boys club ...
In fact, I haven't read something so ridiculous in a good while.
^ sigh
Is it even worth engaging? So many false equivalence and category errors that it’s clear that there’s little point. However….
It is possible for governments of nations whose historical governments have historically done very bad things to try and do good things in the current era. It might be hypocritical to point out some else’s bad deeds whilst I myself am imperfect but that doesn’t change the nature of those bad things, they aren’t relative.
Banging on about Palestine/Gaza to deflect or defend or to try to remove an accuser’s credibility is irritating. It’s possible for both to be wrong, and it’s certain that both are very very different.
You may object to specific examples of people-group oppression but that’s not an argument against the wider issues of centrally mandated discrimination against one people group by a government who have to power to enact policies on those folks, where those folk are under the jurisdiction of the oppressive government and have no mediator or representative/champion.
BTW the idea that it’s ok for a nation’s government to dictate and enforce ‘population growth limiting measures’ is abhorrent to most here who value a balance of collective responsibility and individual freedom where we ask for our individual and local needs and wants to be considered and championed by an appointed representative at a less local level in order to be considered relative to other, perhaps contrary, needs and wants at regional and national level. Also we have many, many means to complain and descent as individuals and groups, that’s a cherished right and even if it it contrary to central government policy, that right (even if the protest is bonkers/trivial/insane) is legally protected.
There an XKCD where it’s pointed out that it’s cheap to employ students to squat on websites and flood the comments section to give the impression of consensus, be the first and loudest voice- you may win the argument by being the only one left in the room, still yelling.
Anyway - the part I liked was DJI saying ‘oh, perhaps a foreign nation might not like phone-home telemetry going an unregulated actor. We could stop doing that if you like?’ D’ya’think?!
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