Windows 10 to hang on for five more years with 21H2 update Reminding the world that there's more to life than Windows 11, Microsoft has promised a feature update for Windows 10 in the form of 21H2. It's a little confusing, because the current preview of Windows 11 also calls itself 21H2. It wouldn't be a Windows update without some attempt to baffle users. And goodness, thanks to the …
Linux Mint does all I need, used it for nearly a decade now. The one Windows 10 computer left in the household belonging to the Mrs will likely be upgraded to Mint too before long the way Windows is going. She's always moaning about how slow it is to start and the amount of time it takes installing updates.
Allowed but not forever.
I have an old PC with IDE hard drive that will quit working when the new kernal trickles down to it. OK it may be having other software update issues already, I haven't had time to use it much lately and it is not my main PC.
But I have a "newer" PC that will take it's place if I have time to repurpose it. As long as the slow as molasses part of it's performance is only caused by the last level of Windows 7 that is on it now.
Two things. First, the last LTS kernel will be supported another couple of years, which is probably enough until the hdd finally gives up the ghost, or another vital component. Then you might be able to replace it with a raspberry pi (unless you need some legacy ports, but there might be a hat for the pi). Second, you write that "it may be having other software update issues already" - hopefully not of the security kind.
Oh, and c) nobody forces you to use a new kernel. With Debian based Linuxes you can pin packages to a certain version, and the kernel is never upgraded to a new (major.minor?) version automatically (or even never ever, i believe). So why not stick to a 4.x kernel (or even 2.x)?
To be clear, your thoughts echo mine when I read the announcement. I thought about the impact on my old stuff, and it can be mitigated.
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...and choose between:
20.2 Uma Ubuntu Focal Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2025.
20.1 Ulyssa Ubuntu Focal Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2025.
20 Ulyana Ubuntu Focal Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2025.
19.3 Tricia Ubuntu Bionic Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2023.
19.2 Tina Ubuntu Bionic Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2023.
19.1 Tessa Ubuntu Bionic Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2023.
19 Tara Ubuntu Bionic Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2023.
4 Debbie Debian Buster Long term support release (LTS)
And then choose between:
Cinnamon (64-bit)
Cinnamon (Edge, 64-bit)
MATE (64-bit)
Xfce (64-bit)
In other words, the new users need to go visit confused dot com....?
I don't think that's correct about Windows or Linux. There's just 10 or 11 for Windows, and you spend about ten minutes deciding what license you need. For Linux, there are plenty of options to choose from, but you can decide on one and just stick with it. If you like Ubuntu, for example, you can probably bet on it sticking around for a long time. For Apple, I would say things are similarly easy except I don't understand your complaints. You choose a machine and run their OS, updating it every year unless you have something that doesn't update quickly. In any case, it's not a lot of work unless you want to really optimize things by repeatedly changing to something marginally better. If you want to pick something and not change it, you will probably be fine with a variety of options.
Let's just take some time to think out the multiple desktop choice thing in Linux. Simple guide:
Some folk prefer a smartphone style approach - nothing but apps on the desktop. For them Ubuntu's Unity fits the bill. No need to hop once they've settled on it.
Some folk prefer a minimalist, clear desktop approach. For them Gnome fits the bill. No need to hop once they've settled on it.
Some folk prefer a maximalist approach - anything you like on the desktop, apps and data. For them KDE fits the bill. No need to hop once they've settled on it.
Some people prefer just data files on the desktop. There doesn't seem to be anything that actually enforces this but KDE is OK - you don't have to put anything there if you don't want to. Again no need to hop once they've settled on it.
The one really disruptive event took place a few years ago when Gnome grew a hair shirt and took a really minimalist turn. Mate and Cinnamon arose from projects to resurrect the previous Gnome (Mate) and reimplement it with the new Gnome underpinnings (Cinnamon). Those and XFCE sit around somewhere in the middle. They all have their adherents, as do Enlightenment and again, once they've settled there's no need to change.
Basically, to mix metaphors, it's horses for courses and no need to change horses in mid-stream. Unless, of course, changing horses out of curiosity is something you want to do; there's no accounting for folks which probably must also explain why so many people complain bitterly about Windows but simply put up with whatever Microsoft deigns to shovel out month by month and half-year by half year.
It's choice, If you don't relish the thought that you can choose the desktop approach that most suits you, maybe you're suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
FWIW SWMBO has a mixture of files* and apps (just Seamonkey and Zoom) on KDE whilst I also use KDE but with only files* on the desktop with most used applications on the panel (task bar in Windows parlance).
* In reality files and folders.
Yes. I've been happy with Mint/Cinnamon for a long time; my desktop is a mix of a few application shortcuts but mostly short-term files, until I tidy them away or otherwise dispose of them.
But the thing I really appreciate is the start menu: applications in relevant groups so basically two clicks from anywhere. There is a search box, but I've never understood the need to have to remember the name of something before you can use it, particularly if it's a thing you use rarely. For me, knowing where things of its ilk are is much simpler.
Multiple workspaces is an absolute necessity, but I think that's par for the course on most Linuxes these days. And a taskbar with writing on it... I'm sure we evolved better solutions than pictograms about four thousand years ago.
Ymmv.
I love Cinnamon but I'm not quite so mad about Mint although I use it because it's best for Cinnamon. My desktop is just a photo with the panel hidden until I need it. I'm not quite minimalist enough to just have a black screen. I think that Cinnamon is ideal because it works well every which way, it's almost ideal. I try other distros and desktops on my spare laptop but always end up returning to LM/Cinnamon. Every other desktop feels incomplete in comparison. I'm convinced that Gnome Shell is an alien artefact...
It's choice, If you don't relish the thought that you can choose the desktop approach that most suits you, maybe you're suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
You could also be just old.
30 years ago that flexability and choice was just what I wanted.
Nowadays, I care much much less. I know I can pretty much just install an OS and get on with things. The thought of the hours I used to spend getting things 'just so' just doesn't appeal anymore.
The Apple bit might not have been entirely serious... I think that my real issue is that I have a spare laptop and too much spare time. I keep using it to take other distros/desktops for a spin. I like the huge variety of Linux but sometimes wish it was less fragmented, maybe fewer projects might lead to more rapid development. I gather Wayland is still a bit rough around the edges, for example, and I've yet to find a file manager that does everything well. As for Gnome Shell... is it an alien artefact?
Ah, so it's self inflicted. Masochist?
Welcome to the club. I don't have the time for that any more, but I did that a while back. And with a new machine I always tried out three different distros. I guess when I replace the current 6 year old AMD-underpowered laptop I'll do that again. I want to try alpine Linux and see how well Devuan supports the hardware. Don't know what I'll settle on them.
I run Devuan with XFCE by preference. On a AMD A6-9225 it runs fine (about 3 years old, but hardly OP). I imagine a heavyweight desktop such as KDE would be a slug.
I've installed Devuan on plenty of boxes and haven't encountered hardware compatibility issues. If there were issues I'd be pretty confident that they wouldn't be "show stoppers".
"maybe fewer projects might lead to more rapid development."
Rapid development often equates to people fixing things that weren't broken. From 4 onwards KDE fixed the idea of a hot corner to unhide the task bar so now just venturing anywhere near the edge pops it even if you were just aiming for the scroll bar on a window at the bottom of the screen...
Given that some PCs only a few years old won't be able to run Windows 11 due to the TPM 2.0 requirement.
And don't tell me about "oh there's a slot where you can insert the TPM" because the average consumer is not going to open their PC and install something. Even the ones that are firmware upgradeable won't help unless Windows 11 does it as part of installation procedure.
Otherwise there will be a billion vulnerable PCs in early 2027 with another 5-10 years of useful life.
"They will have to support Windows 10 for longer than five years"
They may support, but they don't really have to. Does consumer protection anywhere require support that long?
Also, your posting history kinda makes you a Linux proponent - I fail to understand why you're putting pressure on Microsoft to support their products *longer*?
To paraphrase Woody Allen: "The food here is terrible. - Yes and the portions are too small!"
Shouldn't you be salivating on the coming deluge of new Linux users?
"Given that some PCs only a few years old won't be able to run Windows 11 due to the TPM 2.0 requirement."
Oh, I can easily find online new consumer computers without TPM. Just seek the cheapest Lenovo Ideapads with AMD Athlon CPUs. Probably all other vendors are also selling bargain bin models without a TPM chip.
Bah, I'm not expecting people to replace their Windows OS with Linux, or expecting (year-of-)Linux-on-the-desktop to happen anytime soon. Perhaps the old ;'-D smiley should have been included.
But I did notice that you...didn't answer my question.
I did an experiment on someone and replaced Windows with Linux. The only complaint was that the "Office" does not show work files properly. Unfortunately had to reinstall to Windows, because Libre Office was screwing up with their work, and online Office 365 was too slow and limited.
It is not just bottom end PCs without TPM or a slot. I have an upper mid-platform with a 2 year old MB bought for quality components and reliability. No TPM slot. If M$ goes arrogantly into the future it could be what breaks their back (I don't really believe that but remain hopeful they can only overstep so far before it comes back at them.)
I use W10 because of a single application that only runs on it, and not on any of the emulators, but putting a VM on linux and 'any old W10' on the VM could suit nicely. So far I am too lazy, but with a bit of encouragement, maybe not so much to see if it works.
A vast number of people are not aware of what an OS is. Some think it is Internet Explorer. They know about ChromeOS or Android, purely because it is the name assigned to the product they have. Same for Apple, as they know about the product, but not really bothered about the OS.
Microsoft have a monopoly, and their actions will be forcing people to upgrade their perfectly adequate PC's to a newer model, when they don't need to.
Is this in effect, forced landfill ?
If every business specifies MS Office product compatibility, and many businesses and government departments are now Office365, Cloud etc., then Linux does not stand a chance.
The culmination of Microsoft strategy and government inaction on their monopoly status will just cause the OS/Hardware merry go round to continue.
This!
Even for modern systems that don't have a physical TPM module, it's usually fairly simple to enable fTPM in the BIOS for those. My first-gen Ryzen desktop system (home-built) has this and now passes the TPM check with no problems. It's MS's crazy decision to restrict support only to CPUs released in the past couple of years that is the biggest issue.
Of course, time will tell how rigorously MS decides to enforce this I guess.
A recent youtube by Linus Tech Tips shows that you can change registry settings to disable the hardware compatibility check. Also (I am a windows outsider) you can fudge a W11 install disk that includes your preferences, and make it automatic. The whole game may change on launch day, but MS have enough telemetry to know what they are doing. This is a call to tinkerers and money savers.
But the number of people sticking with Windows 10 will depend on how many PCs can't upgrade to Windows 11 without touching a thing, and whether Microsoft eventually forces the upgrade like they did with 10. The fact you can modify this registry entry, change that BIOS setting, open up your machine and stick something in a socket is irrelevant for 98% of PC users who just won't do any of that.
The overwhelming majority of people running Windows 10 on hardware that was original sold running an older version of Windows are doing so only because Microsoft forced the upgrade. If Microsoft can't do that on PCs that 1) have a CPU a few generations old and 2) don't have TPM 2.0 currently enabled, those PCs will never be upgraded and many of them will still be running Windows 10 for however many years they last.
And hardware lasts a long time these days - my mom's PC is old enough that it has a Pentium 4 CPU. I upgraded her to Windows 10 over Christmas and added RAM (since 2GB is probably too little for Windows 10) and an SSD so now it'll probably end up outliving her. That thing definitely won't be eligible for Windows 11 lol
I had an idea about all this. For Windows 10, Microsoft is rightfully receive much grief for all the updates that cause problems. Microsoft already reduced the amount of quality-control people to make the company more "agile". Think of all the computers a short-staffed quality-control department has test every update on. By artificially limiting which computers can use Windows 11, Microsoft is reducing the number of their test machines. Now, if an update borks your machine ... "Sorry, but it is not our fault because you are running W11 on incompatible hardware."
So, in short, I am begining to think the capricious limitation of W11 is so that Microsoft can keep their quality-control department criminally understaffed. They now have fewer computers to test on. So, from Satya Nadella's viewpoint, there will still be no need to hire more quality-control people.
So can someone just tell me the bottom line for Windows 10? I manage five PCs running Windows 10 Pro, and only one of them is likely to be upgradable to Windows 11. So the money question is, what is the projected date when these PCs running Windows 10 Pro will stop receiving Microsoft security updates?
If they are not "home" machines, at what rate do they get depreciated?
Wen buying new PC hardware, I tend to opt, where available, for on site 3-year warrant. Our PC estate is too small to cost effectively do all hardware maintenance on standard PC hardware internally, yet too big to want to waste too much time faffing around if/when one does have a significant system failure, such as M/board problem.
Any that do fail it's a phone call and next (working) day it gets fixed on site under the warranty. After the 3 years, any that fail are "scrapped" and replaced as they have already, in accounting terms, depreciated to £0 value.
They worst for failing are laptops (no surprises there).
Real world users are often still on Windows 7.
I have no end of problems on big projects that have installed radio systems with Windows machines lurking in the management and configuration. These cannot be upgraded because the equipment was type approved with a set of software that is now frozen for the lifetime, maybe 15 years.
According to their web site they are only committing to 10/14/2025. I can't see them keeping that date though, they'll have to extend it like they extended Windows XP because there will be SO many Windows 10 PCs left due to the restrictions on eligibility for Windows 11.
"So can someone just tell me the bottom line for Windows 10?"
Yes, Windows 10 is/was defined by Microsoft as "evergreen", aka the last OS you'll ever need. Except that now it isn't and will go out of support in October 2025.
https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/7/8568473/windows-10-last-version-of-windows
Personally, I'll be sticking with the tried and tested approach of skipping alternate Windows editions and wait for Windows 12.
Rebooted my Linux file server into windows 10 to check something.
Then hit the reboot button to get it back to being its usual self.
Please wait windows updating.... ok time to go cook anyway
Come back 30 mins later "Please wait windows updating".. F.you , power off and boot it into Linux
I have bitter memories of win10 doing that at work and wasting a whole morning when our CAM system 'updated' (and me getting a kicking from the boss too )
Similar experience with previous laptop - someone in our loal history group had a query about W10 Mail. Interrupting its update completely broke W10 which wasn't really a problem as I only left it there in case I had to return the H/W as faulty and I'd taken the precaution of making restore thumb drive.
As it's now been replaced by a new laptop (got really fed up with a miserable 15" screen) I recently dug out the restore device and tried to restore W10 with thoughts of passing the laptop on. What's germane to the present discussion - it repeatedly failed with unexpected reboots until I went into BIOS and switched secure boot off.
We have an unwritten rule: "No windows updates, software updates, or updates of any kind in the middle of a project or commissioning trip, till it's finished."
Hard(er) to do with windows 10, but Xeon processors requiring the "Pro Workstation" variant, and having a domain controller/domain, mean we can stop the automagic updates with a local group policy object, at least for now.
Still a pucker moment when Studio 5000 and windows both update simultaneously.
I have a feeling that after so many security issues have been discovered and patched, governments and organisations are struggling with ways to get in, so there is going to be a new update with new backdoors.
The whole security bounty thing is a honey pot - they want to identify security specialists capable of discovering holes and then make sure they are discouraged from ever doing that again.
A later long term supported version ends 3 year sooner that one released nearly 3 years ago.
<quote>This, in turn, means LTSC users have a tricky decision to make. Stick with the existing Windows 10 2019 LTSC, which lasts until 2029 because it was released before Microsoft decided that LTSC wasn't forever, and certainly not the 10 years of old (unless one was using the IoT version.) Or upgrade, knowing that support for this Windows 10 LTSC will end in 2026.</quote>
This, in turn, means LTSC users have a tricky decision to make. Stick with the existing Windows 10 2019 LTSC, which lasts until 2029.
Hardly a tricky decision, if the 2019 version is still in support and gets patches why would you want to upgrade to get a 'feature update' with a few bells and whistles added on, but less support?
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A (what was when I got it and still is, once I get it working) high end photo scanner from Epson would not bloody work under any iteration of Windows until I re-commissioned an ancient (but still perfectly good) desktop running XP.
So spoilt for choice even without Linux. And the good thing is MS does not care about me so no forced updates,
Even better - Chrome barely works and does not self-update either. Hang out the banners!
Now tell me again why I need to move on?
that Windows 10 2019 lifecycle link ends up in a 404 error page
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-2019-ltsc
.
at the moment, the link that's working for me appears to be:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-ltsc-2019
digging into the Wayback Machine shows that MS renamed the OS at the end of last week, from "Windows 10 2019 LTSC" to "Windows 10 LTSC 2019" - and thus we got the new webpage address.
I'll either go back to OSX or maybe by then find a suitable FOSS replacement for Lightroom/Photoshop, and I mean a good one with the same pro level features where my PS plugins still work and the tools are subtle and flexible enough to edit commercial quality photos I sell for my second side-lien business.
Seriously, after Win10 I can't see myself staying with Windows. There's so many cross platform tools and so much work I'm doing now is coding for cloud automation, you can do that on any platform. Even gaming is now heading for streamed content from cloud services, no need for local gaming devices.
The world is changing and MS is hanging on to it's cash-cow until it finally collapses and drops dead in front of them.
Content from the cloud such as games from Steam installs megs or even gigs of information on your local drive, even Microsoft's new 365 service requires a local system running Windows, Linux, iOS..etc and stores local data on those devices. These thin clients as they have been called, have been rumored to replace the traditional PC since the late '80s, running from the cloud will always require local processing power, memory and storage. Even the 'dumb terminals' back in the early days of computing (1970s - early '80s) had a basic Unix O/S (no programs) and local memory to process only basic text with primitive capabilities for simple editing.
Won't be slaughtering the cow anytime soon.
I look after around 400 desktops across different clients. The vast majority are around 10 year old i3 PCs, with 8Gb ram and SSD and are absolutely fine for what's needed from them. I know they will have to be sent to slaughter eventually, but its the all in ones that's only 6 years old that will be criminal to dump. Just because they have an older gen CPU renders them ineligible for an upgrade.
I know the company owners will simply stay on 10 until the 3rd party apps stop being compatible. No cloud sales, no upgrades, no pennies to MS but I will happily send my monthly invoice to look after them.
"LTSC users have a tricky decision to make. Stick with the existing Windows 10 2019 LTSC, which lasts until 2029 because it was released before Microsoft decided that LTSC wasn't forever, and certainly not the 10 years of old (unless one was using the IoT version.) Or upgrade, knowing that support for this Windows 10 LTSC will end in 2026."
The third option. Install Windows Server 2022 and enjoy the Final Edition of Windows 10, with patches until 2032...
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