Watchdog 'enables Tesla Autopilot' with string, some weight, a seat belt ... and no actual human at the wheel

Tesla vehicles can be tricked into driving in Autopilot mode when no one is sitting on the driver seat nor controlling the steering wheel – as required by the software – according to Consumer Reports. Engineers at the organisation, a non-profit focused on testing commercial products, said that buckling the safety belt and …

[Sampler]

“Standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on, which this street did not have,”

The street it drove off of an crashed on? I mean, I'm not saying that was the cause, but, it's not like it successfully drove down the street?

I like the idea of eye tracking to ensure the driver is paying attention, presuming they can successfully monitor the eye tracking (unlike my old tablet that keeps warning I've looked away when I get towards the bottom of the page), would resolve a lot of these autopilot crash reports you read on the reg where the drivers having a nap.

[katrinab]

Re: “Standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on, which this street did not have,”

Can eye tracking cope with people wearing sunglasses?

[anothercynic]

Re: “Standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on, which this street did not have,”

With infra-red maybe?

[Piro]

Re: “Standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on, which this street did not have,”

Basically, GM's SuperCruise.

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: “Standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on, which this street did not have,”

Requirement for lane lines shows Tesla's "autopilot" is still a very long way from full self drive. Perhaps that will improve in the next version, but it won't eliminate gaming the driver presence sensors. Clearly they have the wrong people testing those aspects.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: “Standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on, which this street did not have,”

"gaming the driver presence"

Most cars these days will set an alarm pinging if the seatbelt isn't fastened and some predetermined weight is detected in the seat. They've done it for years. I wonder why the Tesla doesn't have that feature? For that matter, why do BMW et al need a $$$ camera to perform the function of a sensor worth pennies?

Of course, a set weight sensor can also be easily defeated with a bag of shopping, but how much must the technology have to protect from idiots when said idiots are supposed to take some responsibility for their actions?

This whole story, really, isn't so much about any possible failing of Tesla, more about the ingenuity of a few idiots. Tesla have enough of their own failings to deal with without having to take into account the actions of idiots going out of their way to defeat safety systems.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Hmm ...

Ultimately you can't protect people from themselves. Somebody will find a way to bypass any safety feature if they are suitably motivated.

The best we can hope for is that, if they decide to improve the gene pool, they will not take any innocent bystanders with them.

"Look, if I tape down these two switches, shine a torch into the photo-sensor, hang my security badge on the camera, and unscrew the locking bar of the safety cage, I can reach in to clear jams from the shredding machine, while it is still running ..."

[Anonymous South African Coward]

Re: Hmm ...

"You can make it foolproof, but you can't make it damnfoolproof..."

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Hmm ...

There's always an xkcd

[Dinanziame]

Re: Hmm ...

The problem with making systems foolproof is that you create better fools.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Hmm ...

the ingenuity of fools is mindboggling at times

[sabroni]

Re: Ultimately you can't protect people from themselves.

But can you protect people from twats in who put their cars in "autopilot" mode then crash into you?

I'm happy for these rich idiots to Darwin themselves but as a pedestrian/other road user how do I avoid becoming collateral damage?

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Ultimately you can't protect people from themselves.

The same way you protect yourself from speeders, drunk drivers, drugged drivers or any other moron on the road. You just have to hope that on those rare occasions, you are observant enough and, more importantly, quick enough :-)

[Russell Chapman Esq.]

Re: Hmm ...

Along the same lines but not a shredder, a powerful press molding machine at the Kia factory in Slovakia. One of the Korean workers found a way to bypass all the safety systems to save time while clearing an obstruction in the machine. While he was in there, another worker came along, saw the machine wasn't running and hit the 'Go' button. The result was one very squished, very dead person.

[Andy Non]

Re: Hmm ...

Something similar happened in the UK. As I recall there was a large oven that baked fabricated kayaks. Someone went inside the machine (without locking out the power) while it was cold to repair something and another worker came along, closed the door to the machine and turned it on to be heating up. The man inside got cooked alive. Apparently it was a noisy environment and nobody heard his cries. Horrible way to go.

[Ozumo]

Re: Hmm ...

I remember that. IIRC, the control panel was sited such that the oven was out of sight when was operated. Also the man who got cooked was the father of the operator's fiancee.

[Potty Professor]

Re: Hmm ...

Back in the 80's I worked in a heavy machining company. My Mother in Law was the company nurse in the medical centre one night when there was an accident in the 100 Ton bay. One of the slings used to lift the top casing casting of a steam turbine had slipped, and the casing had turned over and landed on some poor bloke's legs. Mother in Law had to go and look after him while an ambulance was summoned, they dared not lift the casing because the poisons from the crushed legs would have got into his bloodstream and probably killed him. I don't think he ever worked again.

[booner]

Re: Hmm ...

"Look mum, it's driving itself" (Puts a brick on an accelerator of a pick up truck).

Welcome to Redneck autopilot. I'm in no doubt who would be to blame if that crashed

[NXM]

Re: Hmm ...

Father Ted setting the autopilot on the milk float on 'Speed 3'

[David 132]

Re: Hmm ...

“Oh yes, Father, when that bomb goes off they’ll hear it all the way to the North Po...”

(cut to Eskimo sitting ice-fishing, who looks up in surprise at a sudden distant boom sound)

[vtcodger]

Re: Hmm ...

Ultimately you can't protect people from themselves.

True. But the underlying issue would seem to be that of protecting innocent bystanders from the excesses of inept/unlucky/overwhelmed system designers, demented marketeers, partying Texans late on Saturday night, and similar menaces.

What I read suggests that ALL automatic driving and current collision avoidance systems (except perhaps Waymo's) are not yet ready for prime time. Too many edge cases. Too much stuff that isn't quite right yet. And that's when used as intended. Much less when bypassed. Yet those systems are being advertised, sold, and, inevitably, abused.

May I suggest that it's past time to impose adult supervision on vehicle automatic control systems? Heavy vehicles traveling at high speed on public highways are an inappropriate venue for "move fast, break things", "Worked once - ship it. We'll fix the bugs in production" and similar craziness.

==== A quote that seems appropriate ==

"... the fact is, free markets don't provide safety. Only regulation does that. You want safe food, you better have inspectors. You want safe water, you better have an EPA. You want a safe stock market, you better have the SEC. And you want safe airlines, you better regulate them, too." M Crichton, Airframe,1996

[Kevin Johnston]

Re: Hmm ...

There was an incident at a Radar site where a tech was working up the tower having carefully taken the 'Man aloft' key with him. Officer came along and wanted to use the system so got the spare key from the safe and turned the transmitter on.

No matter how hard you try, someone will find a way

[Paul Cooper]

Re: Hmm ...

There was an incident at a Radar site where a tech was working up the tower having carefully taken the 'Man aloft' key with him. Officer came along and wanted to use the system so got the spare key from the safe and turned the transmitter on.

No matter how hard you try, someone will find a way

ISTR there were several early rail disasters where mistakes in passing tokens had fatal results, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1898_St_Johns_rail_accident

[Mike 16]

Re: Early rail disasters

IIRC from some memoir of Babbage, having tokens does not prevent the owner of the company (Chap named Brunel) from moving a locomotive onto a track that Babbage was currently using with another loco. Disaster was averted, but I suspect there was at least a discussion.

That era was rife with "could this boiler explosion have been prevented" stories. Much like today with a few edits.

In my own case, it was my paranoia in checking the supply (which I had shut off at the breaker) to a mid-size motor-generator I was meant to de-commission (after tagging said breaker "Man on Line" and going down to the). Long story short, I am alive to post this because of adding my own personal bike-lock to the various safety measure that some twit had decided were intended solely to inconvenience them.

[Peter Clarke 1]

Re: Hmm ...

Two axioms apply

You can make something idiot resistant but never idiot proof

OR

If you make something idiot proof then they just make a better idiot

[RuffianXion]

Re: Hmm ...

Working in a manufacturing environment with lots of big, dangerous machinery, I see horror stories like this where people have bypassed / ignored safety features at every H&S briefing.

WARNING - Don't continue to read if you have a weak stomach.

One example was the maintenance engineer who decided it would be a good idea to work on a waste cardboard macerator (think lots of big, toothed, steel drums of the kind often used to try to kill James Bond etc.) without engaging the safety lockouts.

Operator appears to start his shift and turns on the machine (without running safety checks first of course).

Luckily he heard the engineer's screams and turned off the machine before it took his arm off completely; they managed to save 2 of his fingers iirc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm ...

For those bold forward thinking early adopters out there we need a kit that includes an inflatable autopilot (see Airplane movie) with a weight for one arm (hands on wheel) and springy googly eyes attached. (eye movement)

To be used to test the fully autonomous capabilities of modern cars, or just a way to clean the gene pool of forward thinking early adopters.

[Neil Barnes]

I'm sure I've seen

previous mention of fake hands to hang on steering wheels to simulate the presence of an attentive driver, and specifically in the context of Tesla Autopilot.

Certainly a quick search for 'fake hands Tesla' produces numerous tales of oranges and water bottles being used for that effect, and ebay shows several weights specifically 'fits tesla' to do the same job.

Assist in your own suicide for only thirty bucks!

[Michael Wojcik]

Re: I'm sure I've seen

ebay shows several weights specifically 'fits tesla'

Disruptive entrepreneurs developing a new market niche. That's what we want, yeah? So I keep hearing from the likes of Musk.

[BebopWeBop]

One might consider this is an interesting take on 'evolution in action' where the ingenious, but stupid ensure they are removed from the gene pool. Not oiptimal of course - after all they could afford a Tesla and may already have bred - but.....

[Kevin McMurtrie]

There are enough stupid drivers that I'm even starting to feel bad for the trees they hit.

[Neil Barnes]

The roads around where I live near Berlin have warning signs advising drivers not to drive into the trees!

[Grinning Bandicoot]

In the case of a Tesla when you are of an age to have the wherewithall to purchase your genes are

probably spread and so you're redundant to the diversity scheme.

[Andre Carneiro]

Idiots can bypass any security system.

And idiots can publish any old tripe on Consumer Reports these days, by the looks of it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Never mind the quality... feel the width

I'm sure every Tesla owner is just chomping at the bit to be able to earn $50,000 a year from letting their 'thing' roam the streets in search of robotaxi passengers once all the kinks in their self-driving system are ironed out.... in about 2040.

/s /s /s

[Andy 73]

Defending Tesla

Fascinating to see people rushing to defend Tesla here, "Idiots will be idiots".

Yes that's true, but knowing that, perhaps it would be a good idea not to give known idiots the easy means to kill themselves and those around them, whilst claiming "This thing drives itself!" ?

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Defending Tesla

I'll bet this isn't something that would have been attempted in any other kind of car

[Claptrap314]

Re: Defending Tesla

You're either incredibly naive or incredibly unimaginative, then. Likely both.

Folks have been rigging vehicles to make them go with no body actually present for more than a century.

[booner]

Re: Defending Tesla

I'm free to put a fork in a toaster any time. I can also repair a blown fuse with a piece of chewing gum wrapper.

Do we need more legislation to account for idiots?

[Peter2]

Re: Defending Tesla

You are free to do all of that. However, if you tell somebody else to put a fork in a toaster and it kills them then you'd be done for either murder or manslaughter.

You can repair a blown fuse with a rusty nail and will generally only kill yourself. However, if you sell the device to somebody else and it kills them then again, your on the hook.

Likewise when Tesla talks about total automation for cars and then sticks in a dramatically oversold lane-keeping system with cruise control then they remain on the hook.

[werdsmith]

Re: Defending Tesla

But Tesla repeatedly tell drivers not to use the FSD unattended. On the dash screens and expect hands on the wheel. Tesla do not tell people use devices to bypass the measures that require a driver to be in control.

[DevOpsTimothyC]

Re: Defending Tesla

But they do not put enough systems in place to ensure that.

The systems should be sufficently difficult to disable or bypass that it takes more than a couple of lead weights and fastening the seat belt

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Defending Tesla

And actually - we have legislation mandating RCDs to deal with idiots with forks.

I for one prefer living in a world where reasonable precautions protect me from my own idiocy and the idiocy of others. A seatbelt warning beep in a car is a good example. I assume they are now legislatively required. I want to wear a seatbelt. I sometimes forget as I drive off (I am sometimes an idiot). The legislated beep reminds me. I am safer. I am glad I am safer.

The issue with Tesla vs the brick on the accelerator is Tesla aggressively sell the idea 'this car is so clever it will drive itself' - and it isn't. I haven't ever seen a Ford pickup advert that says 'this car can drive itself if you have a brick handy'

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Defending Tesla

Why restrict this to known idiots? Surely unknown idiots should be allowed to join in. The line needs to be drawn at those around them who aren't willing participants.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Defending Tesla

Tesla has a cult like following in the USA. Say anything bad about Tesla, their cars or their dear leader Musk and you will be barraged into a million pieces.

The 'cult' are of the opinion that the only EV's worth having are the ones with a 'T' on the tail.

Here in Europe, we are lucky to have a lot more EV's to choose from than those in the US. We can see for ourselves just how good (or bad) Tesla's really are for ourselves.

I nearly bought a used Model 3 but found that the thing was really badly put together. Yet, the next one in the line was far, far better quality. That inconsistency made me decide to avoid the brand for at least the time being. I ended up with an E-Tron. Different beast entirely. Much more comfortable and far better on twisty roads. But that's my worthless opinion. YMMV.

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this news?

In a follow up report, Consumer Reports found that they can trick other cars that a foot is on the accelerator using only a large rock, or in the case of country and western tour buses, a small amount of epoxy glue.

[Chairman of the Bored]

Re: How is this news?

Upvote for Blues Brothers reference!

[Winkypop]

Only one good thing about all this

They aren’t self flying cars!

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: Only one good thing about all this

Oh, I don't know about that. Point them at the right canyon and they'll be self-flying for a while.

At least until this happens ----->

[Anonymous Coward]

Genuine Question

If a Tesla is on autopilot and the driver is detected as inattentive, autopilot is switched off. What then happens? Does the steering revert to a straight line? How does the car slow down? Under engine braking or actual brakes etc? I'm just wondering what would happen on a windy road and if there are actually situations when turning off autopilot could be a bigger risk?

[Filippo]

Re: Genuine Question

That's something that always struck me as weird. It would seem to make more sense for the car to pull over and stop, rather than disable autopilot. I can't think of many realistic situation where driving in a straight line while slowing down is the best solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Genuine Question

It does slow down and come to a stop, whilst maintaining lane control (steering).

It doesn't pull over, but if a driver is unconscious, holding up traffic is probably a good way to get attention - either the horns waking up the driver, or other drivers unable to wake him and then calling the emergency services.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Genuine Question

Any crashes into the back of the now stationary traffic are presumably somebody else's problem.

[werdsmith]

Re: Genuine Question

Yes, that's how it's always been.

[DS999]

Re: Genuine Question

Well depending on what hits you from behind (i.e. a big truck) it will be your problem too.

Legally an impact from behind is considered the other driver's fault, but I doubt that's the case if you're stopped on a highway, which is illegal. In the US it is illegal to drive less 40 mph on the interstate (obviously exceptions are made for very bad weather) so if you were putting along at 25 mph and were hit from behind I suspect the police would consider you to at minimum be partially at fault.

If you're stopped it is probably more your fault than the guy who hit you, especially if you're stopped in a place where a truck going the speed limit couldn't possibly stop in time from the earliest moment he had an opportunity to see your vehicle.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Genuine Question

"If you're stopped it is probably more your fault than the guy who hit you, especially if you're stopped in a place where a truck going the speed limit couldn't possibly stop in time from the earliest moment he had an opportunity to see your vehicle."

You are supposed to drive at a speed whereby you can stop in time if you see an obstruction in front. If don't do that, then it's your fault. A stationary vehicle in a live lane might just as well be a breakdown or medical emergency. The approaching driver doesn't know that. "It was just some fucking Tesla driver who fell asleep at the wheel and deserved to die" isn't really a good excuse.

[booner]

Re: Genuine Question

Whatever it does, the outcome would probably be better than that of a driver in a traditional car falling into a deep sleep

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Genuine Question

Possibly - but you need to think Bayesian here. Lets say that if you fall properly asleep in a 'normal' car you have a 1:10 chance of death. In a Tesla you have a 1:100 chance of death. Great - Teslas are 10 times safer, give Elon another billion. However, that assumes the chance of falling asleep is the same. If for instance you were 10 times more likely to fall asleep in a Tesla then your chance of dying is now equal. I certainly have fallen asleep hundreds of times in cars when a passenger - and, touch wood, never properly when driving.

[Andy The Hat]

Re: Genuine Question

How do you know you have never fallen asleep whilst driving? After all, you were unconcious at the time ...

I have scared myself witless by not remembered the last mile or two of a long journey - yet as it involved junctions, turns, lights etc I must have been awake and in control in some respect ... Or can you actually sleep-drive?

[Will Godfrey]

Re: Genuine Question

Yes. You were fully awake at the time, but the journey was so uneventful and 'normal' that your brain didn't even bother transferring it from cache to RAM, let alone to storage.

[DS999]

Re: Genuine Question

I think you'd know if you had ever been asleep while behind the wheel, because you'd inevitably end up leaving the road or hitting something. If you're in an accident I suppose you might not know you were asleep versus the trauma causing you lose your moment of the last moments before the crash...

[John Robson]

Re: Genuine Question

I’ve once been woken up by the rumble strip as I pulled into a service station.

I had pushed myself a little too far, had been driving conservatively after I decided to stop at the next services - which predictably weren’t for absolutely ages...

My brain had held on until I relaxed because I was “nearly there”... fortunately I was already slowing and leaving the road, just wasn’t intending to leave *quite* that far. I have a number of journeys when I used to commute 70 miles each way that I don’t remember the middle of, but that in and of itself didn’t concern me.

To be fair falling asleep didn’t concern me either, it was the jolting awake that concerned me!

[Emir Al Weeq]

Re: Genuine Question

"engine braking or actual brakes"

Given that, in a Tesla, the engine is an electric motor, "engine braking" can be very effective.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Genuine Question

Original AC here.

By proper braking I meant with brake lights showing, which you wouldn't get with engine braking (in a standard vehicle).

[John Robson]

Re: Genuine Question

"By proper braking I meant with brake lights showing, which you wouldn't get with engine braking (in a standard vehicle)."

But you do get that in basically any EV... the regen is so effective that it is considered braking in terms of the lights

[Anonymous South African Coward]

I, for one, hope never to encounter any sort of idiot trying to make his car drive all by itself without a driver at the steering wheel.

These sort of idiots can remain as far and away as possible from me, I don't want to meet them, hear how they've bypassed a system and what they did. I'm. Not. Interested.

All I'm interested in is getting safely from Point A to Point B (and possibly a quickie detour to Hinkley Point C) without any incident, whether it be a road rage incident, accident or whatever incident it may be.

They are free and Most Welcome to have an explosive, orgasmic, Darwinistic meeting between themselves, I have no issues with that.

When news of that ill-fated crash was posted on El Reg, I suspected that these two clever guys somehow fooled the autopilot part of the Tesla into driving itself... but shouldn't the authorities have found evidence of the tampering? Like fake hands, weights etc to fool the system?

[Peter2]

Have you ever seen what a car looks like that's wrapped itself around a tree doing 30mph?

If not; ever done an emergency stop? Assuming so, you probably felt significant deceleration (probably 2g?) for around 2 seconds and everything on the dash tray, seats etc went flying, right?

If you hit a tree at 30mph then you get approximately 150g worth of deceleration, meaning that anything not structurally part of the vehicle is going to instantly become a missile. Allegedly you could at one point fool the Tesla autopilot with a box of tissues; so any innocuous item (such as a chocolate bar, water bottle) that was fooling the system would become a high speed missile inside the car and so wouldn't have been where they left it.

Even if you had a weight tied on with string; a 10gramme weight at 150g would weigh 1.5kg for a brief moment; and I suspect that neither the string nor the knot would have held those sort of forces. The police and fire brigade probably just cut the car apart, found the corpses not in the drivers seat when they transferred them to the ambulance and then called a scrapyard to take the wreck away. They certainly wouldn't normally do any kind of forensic examination of the vehicle.

[Stoneshop]

The police and fire brigade probably just cut the car apart, found the corpses not in the drivers seat when they transferred them to the ambulance and then called a scrapyard to take the wreck away.

On the contrary. Because not finding a person behind the wheel, unless there was an entirely plausible explanation for that such as being completely ejected from the vehicle, and that person who might have been the driver appearing to have been seated more or less conventionally (i.e. lower legs in the footwell, torso how it might be positioned after crashing as a passenger), not slumped over from the driver's position, everyone involved in the recovery would be seriously documenting what they found before anything was touched and moved. Especially since digital photography and video is ubiquitous and cheap. They're clearly looking at two obviously extremely dead and charred corpses, and there's not going to be any hurry in getting them out of the wreck and carting them off to wherever. It's a crash that's going to raise a few questions, and the first responders involved know quite well that a lot of the answers to those questions lie in their documenting what they've found.

[Jimmy2Cows]

Also, chances are the ensuing lithium fire would have destroyed anything organic, string, plastic, rubber, low-melting point metals. There might be nothing left to find.

[John Brown (no body)]

"They certainly wouldn't normally do any kind of forensic examination of the vehicle."

Not sure what it's like in the US, or the specific State or County where that incident happened, but here in the UK, an RTA involving a fatality will normally result in the road being closed for many hours while every last scrap of evidence is collected. The amount of forensic evidence collecting seems to scale up with the severity of the crash and any injuries.

[Peter2]

That depends.

If everybody survived and they want to figure out if who just dammed near killed several people and closed a major road as a result of dangerous driving then yes; lots of forensics to support a prosecution. But if a car has driven into a tree and the driver and passengers are dead?

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: shouldn't the authorities have found evidence of the tampering?

How about the idiots thought FSD was installed and active, and autopilot was active, when all they actually did was ramp up the speed and engage cruise control? Then the driver climbed into the passenger seat, thinking he was showing off how great his self driving car is.

That'll all be fine until the first bend or obstruction, and, by then, given the apparent speed - wasn't it about 80mph? - there's no time to do anything except put your head between your knees and kiss your butt goodbye.

No fan of Tesla autopilot, and making no excuses for Tesla here, but it seems entirely plausible that FSD wasn't present and autopilot wasn't on (not saying this is true, needs to be independently and forensically confirmed), and these victims were simply even more stupid than it seems.

If true, Tesla needs to do way more to eductate their drivers about autopilot's many and gross shortcomings.

[42656e4d203239]

Two problems....

1. Tesla chose a really stupid name for their augmented cruise control

2. Having enough money to buy a Tesla doesn't always (usually? I only know one Telsa owner; sample size is too small) equate to having any sort of common sense at all

@ElonMusk Darwin awards are in short supply; please don't enable more contenders!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Two problems....

I know about a dozen Tesla owners. They're all pretty sensible people.

The problem is you only hear about the stupid ones on the news.

"Man uses autopilot and gets home safely" doesn't make for a very exciting headline, but that happens millions of times more often than the alternative.

[Mike 125]

Comments are missing the point

This is the significant point here:

"Tesla supremo Elon Musk, however, claimed data logs from the vehicle showed neither Autopilot nor the automaker's Full Self-Driving mode was engaged. "

Wow. I can just hear the investigators, lawyers, claims managers, etc. etc. forming a queue.

As I've said before- Musk should have been satisfied with the best electric car. He'd have sold just as many.

But then.. what sort of nut job / tech disruptor reuses rockets...

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Comments are missing the point

This is the significant point here:

"Tesla supremo Elon Musk, however, claimed data logs from the vehicle showed neither Autopilot nor the automaker's Full Self-Driving mode was engaged. "

Wow. I can just hear the investigators, lawyers, claims managers, etc. etc. forming a queue.

Outside Musk's office, waiting to explain why they should handle media queries, not Musk. Investigators have apparently already served a warrant on Tesla for those logs. Plus there's been other interviews with friends & family of the victims saying that apparently the trip was to demonstrate how the Tesla could be driven with no-one in the driver's seat.

Saying FSD wasn't engaged is probably safe, as that's currently expensive vaporware. Claiming autopilot wasn't engaged could get interesting depending on what's in the logs. And where those logs were, given the car got rather hot. If Tesla's adaptive cruise control (aka auto-da-fe.. I mean autopilot) won't work when there's no lane markings, it seems a tad useless.

[werdsmith]

Re: Comments are missing the point

The statement from Musk said:

Data logs recovered so far show Autopilot was not enabled & this car did not purchase FSD.

[Julian Bradfield]

Re: Comments are missing the point

SMBC is on this case:

http://smbc-comics.com/comic/fsd

[Stoneshop]

Re: Comments are missing the point

Saying FSD wasn't engaged is probably safe, as that's currently expensive vaporware. Claiming autopilot wasn't engaged could get interesting depending on what's in the logs.

Data logs recovered so far show Autopilot was not enabled & this car did not purchase FSD.

Would be quite a thing if the car actually went and bought FSD even if its owner had failed to do so.

[Dazed and Confused]

Re: Comments are missing the point

> Tesla supremo Elon Musk

Rushed out a statement...

This is like Boing rushing out a statement about a plane crash. It would be better to wait for the accident investigators' report.

The difference is when the air accident investigators point their finger, all the planes of that type are grounded but this isn't going to happen with cars.

[John Robson]

Re: Comments are missing the point

The difference is that he can say "this car didn't have <system> installed" which means that <system> can't be responsible for the incident.

Given that all the bashing is of <system>, that's not an unreasonable statement to make.

If an airbus, or even a 787 crashed and everyone went around blaming MCAS then I would expect Airbus/Boeing to state that MCAS wasn't installed on that aircraft.

[Harel]

2 x 4

In other news, my 2008 Mazda can be driven "autonomously" with a 2 x 4 jammed on the gas pedal.

You'll always find ways around safety mechanisms if you look hard - the question is will a real driver will be daft enough try that.

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: 2 x 4

Yes. Yes, they will. There's always a bigger idiot.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can turn any car into a self driving one using nothing more than a housebrick on the accelerator.

[David M]

False sense of security

I think the point is that the 'brick on the accelerator pedal' approach will result in a crash almost immediately, whereas a Tesla in Autopilot mode can keep driving, following the road, avoiding other traffic, etc, for quite a while, thus giving a false sense of security.

[werdsmith]

I can turn any car into a self driving one using nothing more than a housebrick on the accelerator.

AKA, Audi driver.

Oh, it was a b. Sorry, haven't go my reading glasses.

[Jimmy2Cows]

b.. p... easy mistake to make.

[Dave Null]

This is a dumb report...

I sat in my Model 3 a few days ago and tried to work out how anyone could make it go whilst sitting in the backseat, were they stupid enough to try.

If I were to sit in the driver seat, fasten the seatbelt behind me, then climb over the front seats to get in the back, and use a stick to press the brake pedal whilst simultaneously clicking the right stalk down twice to Autopilot then it might be possible if the car was in a region where it was happy to turn on AP.

Sure, Tesla could easily use the camera to do some driver detection but at what point does this just become an arms race of catering for stupid people?

In my previous automatic diesel there was nothing stopping me putting a brick on the accelerator and getting into the rear whilst on the motorway either...other than a general sense of self preservation.

[DrXym]

That's nothing

There is a video of car journo Mark Watson on YouTube reviewing the Model 3 and taking his hands off to demonstrate how the car will disengage the autopilot and it DOESN'T. He could have been reading a book and the car wouldn't have cared.

And even if it had worked, a driver could hold the wheel with one hand and play with on their phone with the other. Or they could defeat the wheel altogether with a weight of some kind. And that's a massive problem.

Semi autonomous cars need to enforce driver attentiveness and they should not be easy to defeat. Why Tesla has been so blase about it is not obvious given the bad press they're getting. And really this should be something that safety standards regulations in the EU and elsewhere should be dictating to car manufacturers, not leaving to the whims of Elon Musk.

[DrXym]

Re: That's nothing

I should get his name right - *Mat* Watson - anyway here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbulCM90w8w and the section is at 18:00 where the car doesn't care with a "minor steering calibration issue" being the excuse for this.

[werdsmith]

Re: That's nothing

My car does start to complain after about 5-10 seconds, it flashes up a big orange picture of hands on the wheel and beeps a lot. You can put your hand round the steering wheel without gripping it and it's happy with that. It's not a Tesla.

[arachnoid2]

Elon Musk , this cant be done

....Hold my beer.......

[Mike 16]

Not Installed?

I recall an incident when a large mainframe had an unexpected crash when a student ran what would today be called a "fuzzing" test, to see what would happen when attempting to execute (allegedly) un-implemented instructions in user mode. Turns out the customer engineer had "implemented" one of them (i.e. removed the jumper that was installed in systems whose owners had not paid for that feature) because the new diagnostic set required them, then forgotten to return the system to "stock" before leaving.

This was in the early 1970s, so clearly such things could not happen today, unless you are dealing with a machine that contains at least one computer with remote auto-update capability. Of course nobody would be daft enough to do _that_, right?

[Claptrap314]

I've been "rubishing" the idea of self-driving cars for decades...

but I really fail to see what this "research" is about--unless it's to prove that if we get smarter idiots, they can do stupid stuff with "smarter" cars.

Is anyone arguing that alcohol interlocks be installed on all cars? That would save a whole lot of lives right now.

Yes, the use of the term "self-driving" or anything that sounds like it is bad & wrong. Yes, remote-hackable one-ton 100+kmph killing machines all over our roads is a *really* bad idea. Yes, Mr. Musk is some sort of crazy.

But this specific issue? Huh?

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: anyone arguing that alcohol interlocks be installed on all cars?

Interlock bypassed in...

3... "Hey could you blow into this for me...?"

2... "Pretty please?"

1... "Thanks"

[Claptrap314]

Re: anyone arguing that alcohol interlocks be installed on all cars?

There are actually laws on the books against bypassing those interlocks. Felonies, I believe.

[Alan Brown]

Re: anyone arguing that alcohol interlocks be installed on all cars?

there are laws on the books about bypassing catalytic converters but people do it anyway (in tne EU it's automatically driving without insurance material on top of any other local charges)

[Claptrap314]

Re: anyone arguing that alcohol interlocks be installed on all cars?

And? My point is not that alcohol interlocks would never be bypassed. My claim is that requiring them universally would save lives now, and in substantial numbers. The fact that we aren't requiring them means that "safety" is not a good with infinite value.

[David Roberts]

Weights?

When I first read that bit I assumed that a weight had been placed on the seat.

I knowy car uses a weight sensor to detect if there is someone in the passenger seat and display an alert if the seat belt isn't fastened.

I assume the Tesla has such a sensor.

If so it looks like programming logic

Hmmmm....

Is seat belt fastened?

If not, is seat occupied?

Not sure how easy it would be to test; presumably I would need to fasten the seatbelt, sit in the seat, then later climb out (as suggested up thread).

However assuming the driver's seat has a weight sensor that should be regularly checked, not just a weight on the steering wheel.

Note to self: check if fastening the driver's seatbelt then applying the foot brake will allow the car to be started.

Not a true test but then this isn't a car with any kind of autopilot or lane keeping system.

It will certainly run quite happily with nobody in the car.

Then again, doesn't really prove anything.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Weights?

very few cars have a weight sensor for the driver seat, on the "sensible" basis that a driver is always present.

This may change with the rise in this kind of stunt and avanced driver assist features proliferating

[Anonymous Coward]

no they didn't

The sat in the seat, turned on the autopilot, dialed the speed to zero, got out of the seat, hung a weight on the steering wheel, and then dialed the speed back up. Its technical, but it different.

[High Bang for Buck]

Safety rules are overrated ...

A tale of an aquaintance of mine ...

Somewhere in the 90's, visiting a relative in Al Capone's hometown in the "Land of the Free" (TM) ...

Being bored one hot sunny afternoon he starts exploring the surroundings, fancying an interest in the storage behind the garage.

By entering the black hole dark room he searches for the light switch with his fingers.

Messieurs Volt & Ampere make several introductions though of no avail - finally finding the switch, turning on the light, seeing the room in all its dusted & untidy glory, loosing interest immediately in prolonging the scouting ...

A few years later - having made the unfortunate decision of getting a technical vocational training before starting university ...

In the final training year the soon-to-be business cannon fodder, erm experienced installation technician, is tasked with installing a forgotten outlet on 4th floor in a major overhaul of a former industrial production site - 12 floors * 24'000 m2.

Lead engineer takes a look at major switchboard beside which he had set-up his work place of programming the Siemens Smart-Home installation for that given floor, giving the "All clear - no current on line".

He trundles to that forgotten uninstalled outlet, he decides to cut/crop the black wire first ...

Again Messieurs Volt & Ampere make a very energetic introduction, again to no avail ...

After the whole 24'000 m2 floor plunges into darkness you can hear the rage of a bull with his balls in the vice:

"Who was that asshole? My whole programming session on the Smart Set-up is lost!"

Seeing my aquaintance still standing beside mentioned outlet (half of the wire cutting pliers missing due to current in those few split seconds), the engineer asks the obligatory question.

"Are you still breathing? Yeah? Carry on .."

.......

When asking his relative why there was no plastic cover on said wall switch the relative replied: "What the fuck where you doing there?"

The engineer had a harder time to explain away that situation.

My aquaintance not only managed to trip the breaker for the hall where the forgotten uninstalled outlet was located, he also tripped the slow action breaker for the whole 24'000 m2 floor - supposedly somewhere around 45 - 55 Ampere.

Morale?

Trusting your relatives can be hazardous to your life.

Trusting your superiors is hazardous to your life.

Having the Darwin-adjusted quirk from the major gene pool that he is one of the rare people who can take tasers with a smile, he changed paths.

Nowadays the DMZ between the coloured pencil booth & the peddlers cove is his business terrain - and electrocutions a conviction by the local BOFH ...

[Tron]

Where is El Reg's geek spirit?

For regulatory weight, you can pop your beer keg on the driver's seat with an extra long straw. You'd need to replace the passenger-side front and rear seats to fit a mattress in and darken the windows for privacy. Nothing quite as important as privacy in this networked age.

You can then lie back and watch the TV you installed across the windscreen, stream video or play games, whilst navigating with voice commands. The space behind the driver's seat should be large enough to make a cup of tea or heat up a snack. Maybe not a gas-powered hob in case some idiot drives badly, your car swerves to avoid them and your saucepan spills, ruining the deep pile carpet. Analogue drivers are such a nuisance.

A bit of excavation and a fridge can go in the boot, accessible through the driver-side back seat.

Bonus points for a sliding roof and an elevating mattress so you can enjoy the wind in your hair with a full 360 view, waving at the trogs still manually operating their vehicles.

Isn't technology wonderful?!