Quality control, Soviet style: Here's another fine message you've gotten me into We return to the Cold War in today's Who, Me? Start your week with suspected sabotage, computer sleuthery, and a satisfying slug of Grand Marnier deep in the heart of 1970s Москва. It was 1978 and our reader was working for a firm that had just sold a computer to the company that manufactured the Moskvitch. Sadly now defunct …
It is actually an artform to drink with Russians and also Scandinavians in that civilised manner (and similar, the order of things to "drink to"). It depends (on my observation as a bloody stuipd foreigner in all cases) on the circumstances, but often starts with "thanking for the food". The first five or ten items on the list are better left to professionals, later on you can more or less safely chime in, say something about "friendship", or "the past success" and the "future success". By that point in time you are forgiven some sins, especially if you are still standing as a bloody foreigner.
And the good Russian Cognac (ok, equivalent distilled wine spirits, since "cognac" is DOC) is really good! I have fond memories of that, and my friends and colleagues.
To the health of you and your families!
(----> wrong drink, sorry....)
Years ago doing a project for an austrian bank, had to go to the Ukraine (amongst many other ex-eastern block countries) for a meeting.
Went to dinner in the evening with the local heads of bank and vodka was brought out at the start that was so cold it was like syrup, had to have a bunch of shots and I had a stinking cold, knew it was rude to decline. They pointed out some men at the other end of the restaurant who used to be the top dogs in the KGB and what they used to do. An interesting view into local stuff.
Ah yes ... the artform also extends to the fact that somehow it's always the guests who get the honor of getting the leftovers from the bottle and seem to end up having to drink at least twice the amount.
Although for some reason the details of that meeting are a bit hazy
At a Georgian feast (a supra), you have an appointed toast master (tamada) who leads everyone through the toasts. After each toast, you must completely drink the glass of wine (if you're lucky) or chacha (moonshine). There can be 100+ toasts in your typical 6+ hour supra, expect to drink 3L or more wine..
I found the search words glass, volume, deceptive, to work in Google - though most buying results are antiques on eBay. Or, you can get "reusable ice cubes" which are a plastic cube or other shape - or solid stainless steel - to freeze then put into drinks; I expect you could glue one or two inside a glass, and it wouldn't be obvious.
Or, browse for glasses which look like they look like they contain more than they do. Or practise discreetly inserting your thumb into the glass while they refill it.
A modern product is an amusing half pint beer glass which looks like the usual tall glass cut in half vertically. Or get two, so that you can be served "the other half" at the same time.
Lots of Scandinavians (especially the Finns) take weekend trips to Russia or the Baltic states for benders, as the cost of alcohol in their own countries outweigh the cost of the weekend away. I have seen dozens of drunk Finns sleeping off sessions in hotel lobbies in both Leningrad and Tallinn
> Finns aren't Scandinavian.
Ah, one of the classic issues debated online since forever. Depends on how you look at it. A good discussion can be found in Ye Olde soc.culture.nordic (a USENET newsgroup) FAQ. Relevant section here: http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scn/faq21.html
A long quote:
2.1.3 What is "Scandinavia"?
The word "Scandinavia" presents a bit more difficulty. In Nordic languages, the meaning is quite clear:
Skandinavien:
Sweden, Denmark, Norway (and sometimes Iceland)
-- the ancient lands of the Norsemen.
The Scandinavian peninsula, on the other hand, is usually simply understood as comprising Norway and Sweden, despite the unclear border to the Kola peninsula. The northernmost part of Finland is of course also situated on the Scandinavian peninsula.
But in English, alas, there seems to be no standard usage. This is mainly due to the fact that English lacks a simple and clear term for the five countries, and the word "Scandinavia" tends to be used for that purpose instead. The term "Nordic countries", in its current definition, is a rather recent invention, its meaning is still a bit obscure especially to non-Europeans, it's awkward to use and to some people it carries unpleasant connotations of the Aryan "Nordic race". Therefore, you will find that it's quite common to define the word "Scandinavia" in English like this:
[Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English]
SCANDINAVIAN
1. of the countries Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland
in northern Europe, or their people or languages.
On the other hand, it is not uncommon to use the word "Scandinavia" in its more limited definition. An example:
[The Concise Oxford Dictionary]
SCANDINAVIAN
1. a native or inhabitant of Scandinavia
(Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Iceland).
And some encyclopaedias put it like this:
[The Random House Encyclopaedia]
SCANDINAVIA
1. region of northern Europe consisting of
the kingdoms of Sweden, Norway and Denmark;
culturally and historically Finland and Iceland
are often considered part of this area.
Despite the term being rather clear for the Scandinavians themselves, disputes remain about how the term would be understood and derived in English. If the word is understood as a geographic term, how can then Denmark be included - as most do. If instead it's deduced from the area where the languages are quite similar North-Germanians, should Iceland logically be excluded?
At the risk of disturbing some people's sleep, we will use "Nordic" and "Scandinavian" interchangeably throughout this FAQ, for practical reasons. You have been warned. :->
Yes, and I would claim that when people use the word "Scandinavia" it's about culture and type of society and not about anything else.
Finland was a part of Sweden for more than 600 years and both Swedish and Finnish law is based on old Swedish law and Swedish is the second official language in Finland.
But I still prefer to use the word "Nordic" as that keeps everybody (also Swedes) happy.
We have a lot together like "Freedom to roam" .
"the right to roam has survived in perhaps its purest form in Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden. Here the right has been won through practice over hundreds of years and it is not known when it changed from mere 'common practice' to become a commonly recognised right. ".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Nordic_countries
And we have the Nordic Council.
"The Nordic Council is the official body for formal inter-parliamentary Nordic cooperation among the Nordic countries. Formed in 1952, it has 87 representatives from Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden as well as from the autonomous areas of the Faroe Islands, Greenland, and the Åland Islands. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Council
Not to mention the Nordic Model.
"The Nordic model comprises the economic and social policies as well as typical cultural practices common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden). This includes a comprehensive welfare state and multi-level collective bargaining based on the economic foundations of free market capitalism, with a high percentage of the workforce unionized and a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector (roughly 30% of the work force)."
How did I end up here from "Quality control, Soviet style".
"Mornington Crescent?"
I say, that's terribly unsporting to play a switching manoeuvre in such an early round of the game (if not in fact contrary to the latest edition of the rules). To correct this illegal move, and, as we are playing with the Nordic extension pack of the game, I am therefore compelled to play Kymlinge.
[Exits, eating a strawberry…]
> Finnish law is based on old Swedish law
The funny thing is, there used to be laws in Finland that came from old Swedish legislation that was no longer in force in Sweden.
(Should finally get around to planting hops in my garden, else I violate Rakennuskaari 5§1 and am liable for a fine of one taalari per year...)
"[...] that came from old Swedish legislation that was no longer in force in Sweden."
Many countries that were under the colonial hegemony of European powers still have out-dated laws introduced at that time. What's more they tout them as a touchstone of their religious morality - also imposed by the colonial invaders.
It has also been observed that emigrants preserve the traditions of their "old country" long after its culture has changed in those respects.
@AC
"under the colonial hegemony of European powers still have out-dated laws".
That may be so but doesn't fit this "old Swedish" law thing as those living in the easter part of the country (Finland) took part in writing those laws.
One could add that Sweden was in war with Norway and Denmark about 40 times with each but never with Finland.
For those who for good reasons don't undestand the "taalari" in a fine of one.
It's the Swedish daler in Finnish.
"The riksdaler (Swedish pronunciation: [rɪksˈdɑ̌ːlɛr]) was the name of a Swedish coin first minted in 1604. Between 1777 and 1873, it was the currency of Sweden. The daler, like the dollar,[1] was named after the German Thaler. The similarly named Reichsthaler, rijksdaalder, and rigsdaler were used in Germany and Austria-Hungary, the Netherlands, and Denmark-Norway, respectively. Riksdaler is still used as a colloquial term for Sweden's modern-day currency."
As far as I know it was used by Finns for the dollar in the USA too.
There doesn't seem to be much energy for "clean ups" in laws in any country and thus a lot of old stuff for our amusement remain.
«We have a lot together like "Freedom to roam" .
"the right to roam has survived in perhaps its purest form in Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden. Here the right has been won through practice over hundreds of years and it is not known when it changed from mere 'common practice' to become a commonly recognised right. ".»
"Freedom to roam" has a similar history in Scotland (and, more recently, definitively enshrined in law), and there are some here who want to have closer formal connections with the Nordic countries, which is not entirely such a stretch, given the Norse history of many of the islands (and some parts of the mainland).
One of my early girlfriends was a Swedish-speaking Finn. On a necessary visit to the Finnish embassy she took me along with her. We received a very friendly reception. Taking a "Who's Who" off a shelf she said "That's Papa" - whose entry also listed her.
After 50 years we still exchange a few cards and emails. She taught me that the approved geographic term is apparently "Finno-Scandinavia". She also gave me a good education in many other areas so as to no longer be a "typical Englishman".
According to my uncle, who headed some medical exchange with Russia back in the 80s, the trick to remain standing is to pay the waitress a little tip and have her fill your glass from a special water-filled bottle. He surely made a smashing impression, not just for remaining upright throughout the night but also for being awake and alert on the next day.
When I first visited Berlin - just after the wall came down - I was told a joke:
A comrade visits the ministry, and says he has saved enough Ostmarks to buy a Trabi, and can he get his name on the list, please.
Certainly, says the official, but it will take ten years.
Ok, says the comrade, but morning or afternoon?
What do you care? It's ten years away!
Ah, says our hero, but in the morning, the plumber is coming.
East Germany was notorious for everything being slow and being hard to get...
So, when the guy was told that he would get the car in 10 years, he wanted to know AM or PM, because the plumber he had already asked to come and sort out a leak was coming in the morning, in 10 years time...
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/27476753-english-norwegian-joke-book
"A man had been in prison for twenty years. When he left, they gave him his old clothes. In the pocket he found a ticket from a shoe repair shop. Perhaps the shop is still there. Perhaps they still have my old shoes, he thought to himself. So off he went and sure enough it was there. 'I've been on holiday for a long time, I wonder if you have my shoes?' asked the man. The old man went into the back of the shop and came back after two minutes. 'They'll be ready on Thursday.' "
My dad had a Moskvitch, sadly the doors were the right way up :( until they rusted off. He traded it in for a Lada. That was posh, the dash had a covering on it, not just painted black metal.
Footnote: This was not in Eastern Europe, but East Coast Scotland... A local enterprising company imported all these foreign rust-buckets, Mazda's then the russian cars, then Skoda's. They still sell skoda's but they're a bit more upmarket than they used to be. Did I mention Yugo's?
DON'T mention Yugos, they rusted faster than a bean tin on a beach. A friend's girlfriend bought a Yugo in the early nineties and drove it to his stableyard, as far as I know there might be a dirty stain where she parked it, probably all that's left of it by now, it only went the one time.
I was giving a talk once to a meeting in a well-known Scottish town, and a local had been deputed to meet me at the station. So we identified each other and went out to his car - a Lada. I have never heard so much gear whine in my life! It was far worse than the whine from the transfer gear on old Minis. I don't suppose the Russians thought it worthwhile to spend effort on helical gears.
In the 80s various Russian touring perfume ring orchestras and groups always insisted on a performance in Aberdeen.
The reason being there was a local scrap yard with the biggest collection of used Lada spares in the world. Virtuoso violinists could be seen rummaging around for an alternator, ballet dancers getting grubby searching for a windscreen motor for granny’s car etc.
When Lada withdrew from the UK market (with the likes of Proton, Kia etc. filling the budget gap) a lot of the old Ladas were exported back to Russia, where the standard fit UK spec (demisters etc.) was appreciated.
Their modern products, the likes of the Vesta as sold in Germany, are a world away from the old Fiat based models.
@WallMeerkat
The same happened elsewhere too, but the reason was that there was a market for then and the fact they where built in Russian made that import cheaper.
Also the Russians got very good at keeping them running doing it themselves.
I bet they are still around although the Russians are rather "mashina" mad today.
At some point here in Europa old Toyota cars were bought and sent to Africa.
As a footnote the reason the scrap yard had so many spares was Aberdeen taxi drivers had a unique business model.
- buy a cheap lada
(cheap to run and easy to maintain)
- Run it until it broke down or, more frequently, the springs poked through the seats.
- scrap it and buy another one
I don't know why people diss Ladas. I had one for a decade. An annual service and the odd tank petrol, and I did many trouble free miles. I rate it as the most confortable car I had for long distance travel. It was a Samara, the GL model. This meant it had sunroof and speakers. If you wanted a stereo, you had to fork out for the GLX model. A £10 radio/cassette player from a market stall saw me right. Always started first turn of the key on the coldest of mornings - it laughed at the UK idea of winter.
If you want to see how tenacious Ladas are, pop onto Garage54's channel on youtube. Vlad and the boys subject Ladas to all kinds of abuse and they always rise to the challenge.
My first car was a Lada Niva (the 4x4) that was handed down from my Dad.
It was almost bulletproof - it once went through a stone wall in Derbyshire without so much as a scratch, and always started straight away on even the coldest morning.
The thing that always amused me most was that, should the starter motor ever fail, there was a hole in the front bumper to allow the use of a starting handle.
It wasn't a starting handle per se. But to recover from a wading accident. Given that the Coil and distributor were immediately behind the grill.
I did have one accident in mine. Took about 8 inches off the bonnet of a Ford Fiesta. Snapped my number plate bracket. Plate was mounted on the rear bumper giving an improved departure angle.
My youngest brother in law had a Lada when he was at Uni. When he landed a decent job, and could afford a real car, he put the Lada in Expand and Fart (long before t'Interwebs). He left the Lada at his parents' house, and delegated his mother to field any enquiries. One day an Indian gentleman came around to inspect it, but was surprised that it was a car, he wanted a ladder.
I was doing a lot of travelling to an interesting country to work on their banking system. One day, in the UK, I had a meeting with 'John' who used to work in the Foreign Ofice, and was told to take care when travelling abroad.
1. if you keep getting the same room in a hotel - this may have hidden cameras, so be careful who you invite back to your room
2. assume there are cameras watching you as you type into your laptop, obscure your keyboard when you type passwords
3. take a bare bones laptop - with nothing on it; with you, in case it gets 'lost'. I said this was a problem as I needed tools on the laptop to do my job.
4. lock your laptop in the hotel safe when not using it. (Though once when I did lock something in the hotel room's safe, the lock was broken and the under-manager came along with his set of screwdrivers to unlock it)
5. check people in meetings to make sure they are genuine
I think 'they' were after people who had worked in new technology such as batteries or solar panels, and carried the plans on the laptops, rather than the throughput of data between two sites.
I checked "John" in our internal phone book, (see 5. above) and he did not exist - spook-y !
>4. lock your laptop in the hotel safe when not using it. (Though once when I did lock something in the hotel room's safe, the lock was broken and the under-manager came along with his set of screwdrivers to unlock it)
I was once staying in a hotel and on checkout day the batteries in the safe (containing my passport and home keys) had run out; the guy from reception managed to open it in a worryingly short amount of time...
Hotel safe = illusion of security.
Rather than stopping anyone stealing your stuff they are they to stop (1) casual theft from your room, e.g. when it is being cleaned and someone pops in claiming it is their room, and (2) the insurance company saying you have not taken suitable precautions. On point 2, I have no idea if that would actually work, so probably a case of illusion of insurance too. Just glad I never had to find out the hard way what happens if someone does take stuff from your hotel safe.
I've been travelling for decades, in some very dodgy places.
The one tip given to me by my predecessor is this:
Take something low value (a fake watch, etc) and leave it in the hotel room safe.
Everything else, put inside a clean sock and put it in a net laundry bag filled with stained and dirty underwear.
The watch (and subset replacements) has been taken ten times in forty years. The bag of shitty underwear, not once.
The hotel staff have to be able to open safes easily because people are always forgetting their code, or something goes wrong with the safe. The safe's code also needs to be cleared when a room is made ready for the next guest, so don't be too surprised if the cleaners also know the reset trick.
While on a week long requirements analysis course in Oxford in the early 90s I got talking to a crowd of Russians in the same hotel who were attending an English For Business course. We got on well throughout the week and when the last of the drinkers on my course went to bed on the last night I joined my new friends who showed no sign of stopping.
I'd grown up in a Staffordshire pit village which was home to many families of Polish descent - their father's had come over during WWII and married local girls and brought along their customs of hospitality, which had some similarities to those of my Russian drinking partners. In particular they taught me how to drink vodka.
We drank well and drank hard. The bar man, who had been drinking with us, fell asleep so we brought out our own supplies rather than cause him any problems with the till. The Russians had a bottle of Smirnoff each, while I had found a bottle of Moskovskaya in a local off licence which was greeted with approbation. We formed bonds of international friendship until dawn, and I was given the compliment that I drank like a Russian. I was, of course, drinking like a Pole.
After an hour's sleep and reeking like a distillery I headed for breakfast before working out that it was a bad idea. What became a worse idea was that the previous day I had been elected to give the final course presentation to several senior suits. I got through that somehow, with some arch comments from my team mates after. After loading my car, I slept in the driving seat for several hours before feeling safe enough to drive home. I started eating again 36 hours later.
Drinking with Russians is a fine, exhilarating activity, but it is best done when young and bold.
I don't drink any more, but I did get several months worth of drinking done in that one night.
Выпьем за то, чтобы у нас всегда был повод для праздника!
Skodas one their class regularly, they were great rally cars, but had a bad reputation in western countries. (Why does a Skoda have a heated rear window? To keep your hands warm, when you push it in winter)
Although they are essentially a badged Volkswagen these days, there is still a stigma attached to them by many older people. I've driven a lot of Skodas in recent years (they are used as pool cars a lot in the companies I've worked at in Germany) and they aren't bad, but I'd still prefer an Estelle built to today's QA standards...
Indeed one of their old taglines was "Surprising Skoda"! I think some rally drivers got the most out of the pendulum-like handling of the engine sitting out back over the rear driven wheels.
I have an Octavia as a family car, a visiting US colleague called it a hatchback Jetta, which is fairly accurate. Seem popular as fleet cars.
In my case you also got a lot of text spam.
If within weeks of buying a new car you start getting texts inviting you to some promotion to buy another it doesn't say much about their confidence. It slackened after I found the MD's email address but at the end of the services in warranty period I made it clear that I would do no more business with them on account of the spam. And they never did replace the handbrake lever which was the only fix for a broken button - a crap bit of injection moulded plastic* and the smallest replacement unit is the complete best part of a hundred quid piece of mechanism.
* Clearly internal stresses relieved by shattering as the two halves wouldn't fit back together.
Especially if you go back to really old Skoda.
They were the largest arms manufacturer in the Austin-Hungarian empire and built tanks and tank equipment for the Germans in WW2, some of their tanks being built in the Russian T38 design with the Christie (US Designer) suspension.
My dad had one of the first Maestros.
We found 13 defects, when we picked it up from the show room, a further 20 by the time we got home, including the back bumper falling off (the securing pegs were missing) and the roof leaked (it didn't have a sunroof, just a normal metal roof, but the welding seams weren't airtight and the rubber seals weren't put in place properly!
The seat belt warning also wasn't a sensor, every time you turned on the ignition, the female voice would tell you to belt up! Get in car, fasten seatbelt, turn on ignition, "fasten seatbelt!" Stall in traffic, restart motor "fasten seatbelt!"
essentially a badged Volkswagen
IIRC the Lada was based on the Fiat 124. Apparently it was modified to enable it to suvive Russian conditions.
And Trabis...
I once watched a little drama from the window of the BBC office in Savignyplatz in Berlin. A cold winter's day, with maybe six inches of snow standing on the cars parked at the side of the road.
A Jag is parked behind a Trabi. Mr and Mrs Jag plib their car, get in... chug chug chug chug. Mr Jag gets out, looks at the bonnet, gets in again. Chug chug chug chug. Mr Jag gets out again, opens the bonnet, looks inside, closes the bonnet, gets in. Chug chug chug chuuug...
Meanwhile, Mr Trabi comes along, sweeps the snow off the roof with his arm, gets in the Trabi. Chug, plub, bluppa bluppa bluppa.
Mr Jag leaps out of his car, walks to Mr Trabi's window, gets his wallet out, and starts counting out d-marks. After a while, Mr Trabi holds his hand up, collects the d-marks, gets out of the car and starts walking away.
Mrs Jag, with an expression of extreme distaste, gets into the Trabi along with Mr Jag and bluppa bluppa bluppa off they go...
Never did find out what happened to the Jag. It wasn't there a couple of days later.
Many years ago, in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio, we had an old beater--it might have been the ten-year old Chevy sedan, with a piece of steel plate on the floor to keep passengers' feet off the road. One of our neighbors was an engineer for GM, and of course drove a spiffy new car. Then there came an unusually cold day, and the spiffy new car would not start, but the old beater did. My father gave the engineer a ride to work. The engineer explained that an engine with higher compress is harder to start in cold weather. My father listened politely, and may even have held off smirking until he dropped the guy off.
Back around 2011, I visited the old East Germany to support my son who was competing in a big international competition. I had (still have!) a SAAB 96, which I decided to use for the journey to a town near the Polish border.
I was amazed at the number of Trabis still in use, and ALL in absolutely immaculate condition! One was even towing an immaculate trailer, made from half of an old Trabi!
My old SAAB prompted quite a few interested looks from the locals, who I suspect had never seen one before.
One evening, returning from the airfield to our hotel, I spotted something coming towards me that, from a distance, looked like a steamroller that had been sprayed bright orange - the colour we used to call "vomit orange" back in the 60's, when it was popular!
As it approached, I realised that it was a customised Trabi, sporting the widest wheels I have ever seen on a road going car - hence the road-roller appearance!
As it passed, I was looking at it through the windscreen thinking "what the h*** is that?". I could clearly see the young driver of the Trabi staring at my SAAB and also thinking exactly the same!
On my way out, I got caught in a mega traffic jam on the Hanover ring road. It was a boiling hot day, and the Scandinavian SAAB was getting very hot! Having already got the heater going full blast to try and cool the engine, I popped the (forward hinging) bonnet to let cool air circulate.
A lot of Germans were waving at me, saying "Your bonnet (hood) is open!". I waved an acknowldgement and continues to sit in the jam. As I got near the end, I hopped out and shut the bonnet. As soon as I got up to 30MPH, the engine cooled back to normal.But for the next few miles, I passed a steady stream of new BMWs, Audis, VWs, etc, all on the hard shoulder, with steam pouring out of them!
I waved and called out "Your bonnet is open!", to each one.
Its true: the Germans have no sense of humour....
;)
"I waved and called out "Your bonnet is open!", to each one."
Driving from Jo'burg to Pretoria one night my water cooling failed. The car was an 86" LandRover. The bonnet was detachable - and so it allowed extra air cooling as that route is theoretically downhill.
At one point I was lying underneath trying to do a jury-rig repair. It was a moonless night and the sky was black velvet covered in diamonds. I tried not to think about what might be crawling in the grass round me. Continuing to drive - the exhaust manifold could be seen glowing cherry red.
Saabs were very rare in Germany. I've lived here 20 years and only seen a handful. I once had a Saab 93 cabrio as a rental from Sixt.
I was supposed to have a Mercedes C class and the rep was very apologetic, that I couldn't have the booked (and free) Mercedes - a previous rental had broken down - and, instead of a manual, base model Mercedes C180, they could only offer me a fully loaded, 2L turbo, automatic cabrio Saab with leather upholstery instead...
The Germans have funny priorities sometimes.
Was that a 2-stroke or a V4?
We had a 2-stroke in the late 60s and loved it. I think it only had 3 forward gears - might be wrong, it's 50+ years ago - but the automatic free-wheel system gave it great economy.
It did have one minor issue though. Every now and again, for reasons only known to itself, the motor would start up running in reverse. The only way you could tell was by releasing the clutch!
Didn't take long to learn to stop doing sprint starts!
We had a pair of big Cibie Oscars on the front so it looked (a bit) like one of the rally cars (apart from being powder-blue and not cherry-red) until some nere-do-well sawed them off one night.
My mother had a Glas Goggomobile, which was the immediate forerunner of the Trabant, same engine and gearbox, same steering and brakes (if you were lucky), but a steel body instead of fibreglas. Extremely reliable. but not very fast or comfortable, and the heater didn't work until you'd done about ten miles.
Yes, very different, and simultaneous interpreter is even more stressful (translating in real-time what you are hearing).
I've worked as a translator and a simultaneous interpreter. The latter is really heavy going.
My old employer celebrated 25 years and invited guests from all over Europe. Most of the presentations were in German and some of the guests didn't speak any German. They tried to get me to do it, but I said I had no experience and it wouldn't be a good experience for the guests. The company tried getting interpreters at the last minute, but it was "too expensive" - they wanted to send at least 2 interpreters, because of the stress levels, they shouldn't do more than 5 - 10 minutes at a time.
A translator who did some ad-hoc work for the company and myself were then drafted in to do the interpreting of the presentations. The first night was ad-hoc speeches with no slides and no script to go by. That was really hard work, trying to listen to what was being said and speaking in another language at the same time. We got it sorted after a while, but it was a rocky start.
Luckily, the second day was mainly my colleagues giving presentations and it was material I knew well, or in a couple of instances, I had written the original German presentations. That gave me a lucky "shortcut", I just ignored what the presenter was saying, for the main part and just gave my own presentation based on the slides. There were a couple of guest presenter and I had to do my best at SIing their presentations. I got a lot of positive feedback from the guests.
If I had had to really do a simultaneous translation for the full 12 hours or the 2nd day, I think I would have had a breakdown! As it was, I had a screaming headache and was very disorientated.
Translation is much easier, but still way more than I can really do, at least at a professional level. I've done dozens of translations of marketing material, newsletters etc. for my employers over the last 15 years, but I did a short stint at a real translation company and it showed me that, whilst my translations were readable and understandable, they were a long way away from what a professional translator would have served up.
I take my hat off to people who do any of those 3 jobs (translation, interpreting or simultaneous interpreting) at a professional level. Your understanding of both languages needs to, essentially, be degree level + years of actually using both on a daily basis, otherwise you can forget about it being a "professional" job.
I once ended up as default interpreter for some Germans and Brits (and one Yank) while neither German nor English is my mother tongue. Somehow I managed, but I am glad it has been over 30 years since I last had to do it. The English-Dutch and Dutch-English translation jobs I did for the company I worked for as a programmer were a lot easier and I managed to surprise a couple of co-workers doing the same with my speed and quality.
I hail from the same country, and as a nice side effect of that I am fluent in English and fairly fluent in spoken German.
At least, I though I was.
I have since discovered that this fluency only applies to expressing myself. Translating someone else's work is a different kettle of fish, and I deeply respect the people who do this for a living.
I'll stick to English now - I lived for decades in London surrounded by people who spoke it very well, and there is no better way to tune your own pronunciation, enunciation and vocabulary.
Ironically, I so rarely speak Dutch now that I sometimes have trouble finding words :).
If you can speak German and English, you can at least understand Dutch, it seems to be every other word is either "like" German or like "English". I heard a Dutch press conference a couple of weeks ago and I could understand the jist of the conversation.
Now way I could write or speak it fluently though.
I was on a biking holiday in Bavaria and there were some Dutch guys as well, this was before I moved to Germany and learnt German. We visited a graphite mine and the German guide didn't speak any English. One of the Dutch guys said, no problem, I speak German, I'll translate for you.
I heard, "blah blah blah 20,000psi, blah blah blah, 200M blah blah blah."
After 10 minutes, I asked the Dutch guy, "okay, what did he say?"
"Something about 20,000psi and 200M, I didn't understand anything else, he doesn't speak German!"
The guide was speaking with a thick Bavarian accent and speaking Bavarian, not High German. :-D
I don’t speak any other language but have been a user of simultaneous translations for many happy hours in meetings of the EU on vehicle construction standards. Up to 6 or more languages could be used in any meeting, so there were a lot of translators waiting for say French to English to then translate from the English to Spanish or whatever. If you have had the benefit of using translation you will know that if you are listening to the speaker’s language all you get is his microphone connected directly to your own headphones. However, one of the industry reps suddenly realised that the voice in his headphones wasn’t his and there was a delay before whatever he said was repeated by someone else. It turned out that his Geordie accent was so strong that the translators had asked for an English translation of his accent before they could translate into their allotted languages. (I was very nervous about the strength of my Welsh accent after that)
On another occasion a French delegate who had the habit of speeding up his speech when exited managed to outrun the translation and all we got was “sorry we can’t keep up and be sure of translating properly”
Lastly (someone else has mentioned this) we had a German translation that had very long pauses that were eventually broken by the translator saying “...just waiting for the verb, just waiting for the verb”
If you can speak German and English, you can at least understand Dutch, it seems to be every other word is either "like" German or like "English". I heard a Dutch press conference a couple of weeks ago and I could understand the jist of the conversation.
I have that with Swedish. I can't understand a word of it, but I generally pick up enough words that sound similar to vaguely keep up with the plot :).
I do admire any one that can speak a second language. For a short time at school, had to do French and German at the same time. My homework started off in one language and finished in another!
I always thought that in Europe at least, I may not understand the road name signs, but at least I could have a stab at pronouncing or guessing - but no idea if I was a place like China, Japan with completely different writing.
Think the worse place I had been to for language problems was the USA - they seem to have problems with my soft spoken Dorset accent!
My homework started off in one language and finished in another!
I had that problem a couple of years ago on a whistlestop tour of Europe*. On the last evening in Calais, having visited 7 countries in three days, I ordered, "Deux bières, bitte".
Fortunately the barman didn't take offence and just laughed, apparently it was a regular occurrence.
In the Flemish part of Belgium it's considered normal to speak someone else's language (which makes it also very hard to learn Flemish), they seem to have quite a knack for languages there.
If you live there it's quite normal to hear discussions which intermingle Flemish, English, German and French, although the German only shows up in places along the border with Germany.
Spent several enjoyable hours in an Irish bar in Amsterdam some 18ish years back.
The barman spoke to us in perfect English with a notable Irish accent then, as new folks walked in through the door, switched to seemingly (to us) flawless Dutch, German and French.
Talking to him between his serving customers it turned out his mother was Irish and his father was Dutch and he'd mostly grown up around there, speaking English and French with his mother and Dutch, German and English with his father. It was very impressive to behold from the sidelines!
I spent a fair time working in Nijmegen, and the bartender in the hotel there (and indeed most of the staff) would quite happily flit between languages at the drop of a hat for the different customers.
Indeed when I first got to know him, I actually heard the barman apologise that he only spoke 7 languages (compared to me who can barely speak one).
Gotta love the Dutch and their linguistics...
jup. there's only about 4 million speakers of real 'flemish' and then there are like 300 dialects.... The rest is Dutch and some south afrikaans (but that is so altered it is a language on its own. Even real 'dutch' is hard for flemish speakers.
The toughest to deal with are the chinese. When in a meeting you need to come to a conclusion and they answer 'basically yes' ... that can mean any of the following
- we have not understood a word of what you said, but we agree with the provision we may alter anything and everything later.
- we agree but we can't tell the higher ups, as that would be impolite , so we don't agree
- we don't agree with anything at all. So 'basically yes' , which translates to 'no'
"The rest is Dutch and some south afrikaans"
On a posting to South Africa my Afrikaner neighbours invited me to the New Year's Eve NGK midnight service - after which there would be food etc. I sat in the crowded church as the preacher went on and on. I asked my neighbour "What is he saying". He said "I don't know - he is speaking in old Dutch".
I never learned any Afrikaans beyond a few essential phrases. I hoped a Luxembourg posting would polish my schoolboy French - but everyone wanted to practise their English. In Sweden I acquired a reasonable competence in reading and speaking - but couldn't handle the replies which assumed I was fluent. My Hebrew was just a few phrases - as again many people wanted to polish their English.
In Luxembourg EEC project meetings I learned that the French phrase "En principe - oui" - is merely a polite "No!".
We have a substantial South African diaspora in Western Australia, which is said to be the largest such grouping in the world outside South Africa. At a Perth Test between Australia and South Africa a few years ago, a member of the touring team complained of getting heckled over the fence in Afrikaans.
I always thought that in Europe at least, I may not understand the road name signs, but at least I could have a stab at pronouncing or guessing - but no idea if I was a place like China, Japan with completely different writing.
Try Northern Thailand before the days of the GPS. I knew that if I lost my Thai/sort-of-English companion there would be no way I'd find my way back to an airport.
Yes, I had a map, but you try picture-matching a beautiful but fully alien character set to get a starting point.
I can imagine it's difficult and stressful, especially when the syntax isn't the same.
I once heard Eric Laithwaite relate an anecdote. He had been to a conference with simultaneous translation, and he was listening to a translation of a German speaker. Suddenly the translator stopped while the speaker went on. Eventually Laithwaite heard the translator mutter "the verb, man! the verb!" before finally trying to pick up again at the end of the sentence.
Yes, having the verb as the last item in a sentence in German can make it difficult to keep up, because you might have to wait a minute or so, buffer what they are saying, waiting for the "doing word" to finally come up, then you have to blurt that minute or so of translation out, whilst buffering up the next sentence!
Buffer overflow was a serious problem, when I did that event. Knowing the speaker and the topic, you can sometimes guess what the verb is going to be, slip it in, then correct it, if it doesn't work. More difficult if it is a high-end negotiation, political speech etc., where it has to be accurate.
"That gave me a lucky "shortcut", I just ignored what the presenter was saying, for the main part and just gave my own presentation based on the slides."
A classmate of a family member went on a humanitarian mission to Cuba a couple decades ago. The were surprised with a late night invitation to the presidential palace hosted by Fidel himself. An interpreter was there, since most of the guests only spoke English. At one point during dinner, they realized that A) Castro understood at least some English and B) he must tell the same stores fairly often. Apparently the translator started to get ahead of Castro so he interrupted and said something like "no no, let ME they'll the story! "
"An enterprising salesman took advantage of the problem to sell them more memory, and the fault reduced to once a day (they worked two shifts a day),"
That should have been a bit of a clue.
I managed to escape from a client's customer site in Italy when the server took a long enough gap between crashes. I was only there to install custom S/W I'd written but the flaky server kept crashing & they didn't want to let me go until "it" worked. I later heard that dodgy memory was replaced bu all I knew was that odd bits of memory kept getting dumped in files in lost+found. Apart from running out of money I had an appointment the next week for a meeting with new client. I needed to get away.
An acquaintance of mine was called in to track down quality control problems at a Very Famous British Car Manufacturer. It took him one night to find the issue: the night shift, unsupervised by managers who did not deign to work after 5pm, were keeping one good bodyshell aside and putting it through the metrology system every time another one came off the line and was due to be tested. As a result every shell produced "passed" and went on to be fitted out, regardless of how bad it was.
Fairly standard shoddy British construction practices for the age, and one of the main reasons we no longer have an industry worthy of speaking of.
Check out a documentary on YouTube, think it's called Clyde Shipbuilders. You'll know it when you see it, circa 1960-70 and it covers the workers as they try to strike (again) because their tea break which lasts for fifteen minutes, but which takes over 45minutes (time to get off ship and back on) is being binned by the new owners.
The workers attitudes are absolutely stinking. I won't spoil the outcome for you, but certainly worth a watch.
"They would not try to “close everything” if that “everything” was profitable, would they?"
Many businesses do exactly that. If they think that closing a barely profitable part of the company will release cash to be invested somewhere where it will make more profits, then that's exactly the sort of short term, non-strategic thinking and logic they will follow. Just look at those companies in the USA that automatically fire their lowest performers every year. They don't care that they might be good performers, just that they are in the lowest percentile.
there were a lot of things wrong with the british shipbuilding industry at the time but that was merely a symptom of what was going wrong
When 3 shifts of welders could be outperformed by a single japanese worker operating semiautotomated rigs on the other side of the world, changes had to be made. Choices were between shedding staff and modernisig practices or shutting down entirely and it ended up being the latter
This scenario has repeatedly played out in industrial areas around the world where manglement have tried to maximise profits when they saw that heavy reinvestments in plant + automation was needed and chose to run the business into the ground instead. It's never ended well for the poor buggers at the blunt end of things
...a white one with a red interior. I was about 8 or 9 at the time so this would have been 1976-77. My memories of it were the bouncy ride, the volcanic heater and the fact it was built like a tank. So much so that a mini drove into it at considerable speed, writing off said Mini (the engine ended up in the front seat). The Russian tank needed a new wing bolting on and was good to go.
"The Russian tank needed a new wing bolting on and was good to go."
A few years after you I had a similar experience: a Beamer hit my Austin Maxi (I know it wasn't universally loved, but served me v well). Did a lot more damage to the prestige motor than it did to mine :)
Those other programmers in his team are probably now the heart of the Russian hacking of every Western country on earth. And maybe some of the assembly line workers as well. They were so good and hacking and messing around with their own systems it was only natural to hire them to destroy the West.
One day in the life of Ivan Ivanovitch, eh? Though less Siberian than its literary namesake. Both Ivans take pride in the quality of their work, anyway.
Nostaligia.
Car production in Russia is increasing. It is over 1.5 million units per year. Just look at what is happening to manufacturing in the UK. Even Rolls Royce and Bentley are foreign owned. :(
I once worked for Lucas, when the UK had a serious car parts business. So sad to watch today's wokes hiding from an airborne virus that hardly kills any healthy person. We had concerts in Hyde Park when the flu killed far more people. The media rarely mentioned it.
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