back to article Semi-autonomous cars sales move up a gear with 3.5 million units leaving forecourts

Autonomous driving sales are accelerating, claims analyst house Canalys, citing global shipments of 3.5 million vehicles with Level 2 self-driving capability during calendar Q4 2020. Whether a car is self-driving or not isn't a binary, but rather judged across a sliding scale. There are multiple "levels." The lowest, Level 0, …

  1. jmch Silver badge

    "Billions are being spent developing technology that nobody has asked for, that will not be practical, and that will have many damaging effects.”

    The same could have been said, at the time, for many technologies or infrastructure projects we now take for granted. The billions spent by technology and auto companies is their own business. If drivers really do not want these aids, they wouldn't be spending on them as optional extras, but clearly there is a strong demand for them. And if people opt to buy cars with less technology, they are free to not buy the extras, or buy a brand / model that doesn't offer them.

    With regard to practicality, self-driving cars are infinitely more practical than driveb cars, if they allow the 'driver' to focus on something else rather than driving. Hundreds of millions of person-ours a day can be freed up, to the benefit of both productivity and personal life. The fact that level 2 self-driving doesn't allow the driver to focus on something else is true, but, if progress continues, temporary.

    With regards to damaging effects, I can only imagine he is referring to potential accidents. But to improve here, autonomous vehocles don't need to be better than the best driver at their most attentive, they just need to be better than the average driver at their average level of attentiveness. Considering the awful driving I've witnessed driving in half a dozen different countries, and also considering how many people drive tired, drunk, while calling, or when trying to deal with screaming kids, jumping pets or their favourite scalding caffeinated beverage.... well, the bar to clear isn't really that high.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "But to improve here, autonomous vehocles don't need to be better than the best driver at their most attentive, they just need to be better than the average driver at their average level of attentiveness."

      A couple of points here. To overcome distrust, let alone meet the hype they do need to be better than the best driver at their most attentive. And if you work out the number of vehicle miles per accident, at least per fatal accident, it will be a very challenging task to meet the average.

      " Considering the awful driving I've witnessed driving in half a dozen different countries, and also considering how many people drive tired, drunk, while calling, or when trying to deal with screaming kids, jumping pets or their favourite scalding caffeinated beverage.... well, the bar to clear isn't really that high."

      The bar you seem to be setting here is the worst driving you've seen, not the average.

      1. jmch Silver badge

        "The bar you seem to be setting here is the worst driving you've seen, not the average."

        Maybe wrongly worded on my part, but I DO mean the average. Look at it this way... I'm pretty sure that every high-profile Tesla 'Autopilot' disaster fail has been posted on the Register, and off the top of my head there are maybe 3-4 per year in the last 4-5 years. And exactly because Tesla are very high-profile, I doubt there are nay such fails that fail to make the news.

        Compared to the number of 'normal' vehicle accidents I keep hearing about, it doesn't seem like that many fails (granted, I'm not doing a per-journey or per-km-driven comparison as I don't have the numbers). When I spoke of doing better than average, what I mean is that low bar is the lowest standard that will lower average accidents and casualties universally, and I think even with the early level of tech, we're already at or around that level.

        Tesla are currently the technology leaders and are still at level 2/5, and less than 10 years in. As another commenter pointed out, other vehicle technology has taken years to mature. My point was exactly that even though the current state-of-the-art is far from the finished product, it's still pretty good, and whoever was quoted saying self-driving is a disaster that nobody wants isn't seeing teh potantial 20-30 years from now.

    2. vtcodger Silver badge

      "The same could have been said, at the time, for many technologies or infrastructure projects we now take for granted."

      That's a valid point. The problem is that many automotive technologies have taken a long time to mature in the past and that may well be true in the future. It's sort of OK if the entertainment system is a bit obtuse or attempting to change the heater settings can somehow dump you into the panel lighting backcolor logic. It's not so OK if the overly helpful traction control systems attempt to put you on someone's front lawn when roads are icy or refuse to let you climb a steep hill.

      One point being that it takes time for this stuff to mature, and safety related capabilities are exactly where trial and error is almost certainly not a good idea.

      A second point being that car salesfolk ARE sales folk. They put considerable effort into overselling dubious or even dangerous "features". They are, if anything, less trustworthy than politicians. It's probably not prudent to give too much credence to their claims of efficacy.

  2. Lucy in the Sky (with Diamonds)

    Put me down for two dozen or so...

    Personally, I drive pre-1990 cars, made before Air Bags, GPS and computers. You know, cars. I assume any computer car more than five years old no longer gets software or map updates and the computers in them have this forever beige-box feel to them, lost in time, lost in space. Like cars with built-in Apple docks, for devices that no longer exist.

    Having said that, I am looking forward to the fun I will have when fully autonomous self driving cars come out. I will buy dozens of them, and have them drive about all day, doing things I consider funny, like creating traffic jams around ex girlfirends’ cars. Going to work, and make eight of them drive around me in a protective bubble, then make them drive around the block all day to save on parking. Get one, just to take doggie for a walk.

    In the present day, sadly we are restricted to be able to only drive a single car at a time, but thanks to the marvels of innovation, we can soon drive hundreds of cars all at the same time. This is progress for a better, happier, more entertaining world.

    1. Dave 15

      Re: Put me down for two dozen or so...

      Yeah, it would be easy to have them somewhere behind you protecting you from people wanting to get in front s and blocking your progress, or coming out of junctions. With enough you could create an empty road to drive at high speed.... In your proper car.

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        Re: Put me down for two dozen or so...

        With enough you could create an empty road to drive at high speed.... In your proper car.

        Been there, done that!

        waaa waaa waaa

        I Won!, I Won!

        I want my Presidential motorcade back!

        waaa waaa waaa

  3. Andy Non Silver badge
    Coat

    Will you visit me please, if I open my door... in cars?

    You'll feel like a new man.

    (Numan)

  4. MachDiamond Silver badge

    The middle ground is the most dangerous.

    If people aren't actively engaged in driving the car, there is no way they can take over if the car gets in trouble. Either you are driving or are not (there is no "try"). The time it takes to recognize the car is not keeping up, analyzing the situation and taking correct action is longer than most problems will allow before a crash. There are plenty of videos online of beta testers (tesla owners) where the car drives itself on the wrong side of the road or doesn't seem to notice a car in the way when making a mid-block turn (not at a controlled intersection). The cars also have a hard time figuring out intersections where only one direction of traffic has a stop sign. They'll edge out into cross traffic and stop when it would have made more sense to "gun it". Human drivers can also see a car briefly through obstructions and understand that it will pass through the intersection momentarily even when it becomes hidden. That's a really tough problem for automated vehicles. If they don't see it, it doesn't exist <insert bugblatter beast reference here>.

    Another problem with car automation is the level of accuracy. Aircraft are often miles apart and have all sorts of wiggle room. A car off by half a meter may be up on the pavement or jutting out into a busy intersection. Or, buried into the rear of an emergency vehicle which Tesla's seem to have a weird sort of affinity for.

    I expect that for vehicle automation to work properly, it will take a combination of the car and the roadway. First steps could be city centers and special lanes on a motorway. There needs to be some way to handle breakdowns that doesn't back up traffic for hours. To mark roads and install signage compatible with automated cars will be time consuming and costly. There will need to be a mechanism that routes cars away from road works, outages, hazards, with a define path so all of a sudden all of the traffic on a high street isn't going down small residential lane or blocking up a road in front of a school or hospital.

    Anybody buying a car with the hardware fitted is paying for technology that may never get used. Elon keeps saying that all that is needed is the software, but I suspect that they will find some hardware deficiency that will prevent a later version of software from working and the owner will have to take the car in for an expensive refit. Like the new MCU's losing over the air radio, there will likely be some changes that owners will not like. I see all of the gadgets as one more thing to go wrong that borks the whole car. If you don't opt for FSD and one of the components goes "bing" and lets out it's magic smoke, the whole car could grind to a halt. In the very least, it will have to be fixed to clear the code so the car will pass its next inspection. A friend has that sort of thing happen. The interface to an uninstalled option failed or reported an error and they wouldn't pass it until the fault was corrected. Nice tidy 1,000 down the crapper to fix something that really didn't exist in the first place. Another work mate had an old BMW with an OEM fitted cell phone. The service for the mobile was discontinued years ago. The car looked and ran great, but the phone was nothing more than an ornament.

    My current car is 14 years old with over 200k miles. A gently used low mileage replacement engine is much less expensive than even a comparable used car. There's no SatNav without support, no media device that doesn't function and no need for it to have any software updates. Besides the mileage, it's in great condition. All of that means it has good resale value. I do plan on dropping a newer engine in it and keeping it for many more years even if I add an EV to the fleet. That new EV (non-Tesla) will likely have a shorter run and far less resale value down the road. All of the modern technology will be unsupportable at some time after the end of the warranty. The displays probably won't be made in 7-8 years so finding one to replace a defective unit will be expensive. The Teslas, Ford MachE and the VW ID4 seem to share the same design folly by basing the operation of the car on one device that is interacted with by a the display. Ford has an even bigger issue with the knob embedded in the display. That will be a fun bodge some years down the line. In aerospace, we call this a single point of failure and work hard to not have them. One thing stops working and it compromises the whole. My old truck had one HVAC fan setting that didn't work. A simple fix, but I didn't care that much to invest the time. With a new car, one thing wrong could mean everything doesn't work or several things stop working at once. The fan stays on high and can't be turned off and the heat is set to max at the same time. One step forward, two steps back.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: The middle ground is the most dangerous.

      > If people aren't actively engaged in driving the car, there is no way they can take over if the car gets in trouble.

      That! This is one of the most important argument against those semi-autonomous cars. How can you pretend the guy chatting on WhatsApp, mentally thousands of kilometers from that road, will suddenly, in a split second, be able to asses the situation and react!

      Sorry, driving doesn't mean holding the steering wheel so it doesn't drop to the floor, it means having at all times a mental image of your surroundings, the other cars around you, and their probable intentions. You can't keep that concentration for long if you don't actually drive, eventually you'll lose focus. Either you drive, or you don't.

      Last but not least, a reality check please: What is actually driving those cars again? Is it that infamous "AI" of proverbial stupidity we're all laughing at? No thanks, I definitely don't want that controlling several ton heavy heaps of metal at high speed around me.

      I agree 100% with that Christian Wolmar fellow. At last somebody who doesn't yield to the "ooh shiny!" aspect, and dares name the emperor's new clothes chauffeur.

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      Re: The plus side.

      With all sympathy for your friends, this is a classic case of arguing for the outliers by emotion (in perhaps the same way so much new legislation proposes 'think of the children!')

      For every heart attack or stroke in charge of a vehicle, there must be millions of miles driven where this does not occur. For every person killed in a vehicle accident, again, millions aren't.

      In the UK, in 2019 (latest stats I could easily find), there were 1752 fatalities in road accidents and ~150k serious injuries. At the same time, there were 74.6k deaths directly attributed to smoking with half a million hospital admissions - both these from a population of around 70 million. The top two causes of death in the UK were Alzheimer's and dementia - diseases of old age.

      The rate of fatalities in road accidents was calculated as a shade under 5 per billion vehicle miles... I averaged 30k a year before I retired, so perhaps one and a quarter million miles. The diabetes is likely to get me a long time before driving does.

      If the aim here is to reduce deaths, ban smoking (and I note that the UK is a fairly non-smoking country, compared world wide). If the aim is to sell expensive cars, at least be honest about it.

      1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

        Re: The plus side.

        Smoking isn't going to be banned because the government, and companies that make political donations, are making money every time you buy a pack of cigarettes.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The plus side.

          Yet the public continues to vote these <expletive deleted> representatives back into power, ever though those very people are acting against the interests of the voters.

          :(

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The plus side.

        If the aim here is to reduce deaths... It's not, it's about control.

        If the aim is to sell expensive cars, at least be honest about it.... How naive. It's about making money, pure and simple, by producing cars with such complicated and critical safety systems requiring serious regular and expensive maintenance to avoid frequent "sorry I can't do that Dave" diagnostic failure reports.

        1. ThatOne Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: The plus side.

          > cars with such complicated and critical safety systems

          ...that you can EoL them easily and definitively after a year or two, and force people to buy a brand new one. Like a smartphone.

          Imagine: No more second hand cars, or people holding on to their car for decades! Think of all those lost sales! From now on, after a year or two your car will simply stop, and there is nothing you can do about it. Except buy a new one.

      3. JohnG

        Re: The plus side.

        There have already been at least two cases where Tesla's Autopilot was effective in avoiding an accident, when the driver was incapacitated. In both cases, the driver was asleep at the wheel and the car was driving itself on Autopilot - and the police stopped the cars by overtaking them and then slowing to a stop. In both cases, the drivers were subsequently found to be drunk.

        Where drunks have fallen asleep at the wheel in cars without autonomy, the typical result is an accident in which they injure themselves and other road users.

  6. Chris G

    Level 5

    A level 5 allegedly autonomous vehicle will still not be anywhere near the complexity and potential of a level 1 human, while I think that much of the sensory functions that are being developed for autonomous vehicles may be useful additions to a piloted vehicle I don't believe a truly autonomous car is anything like as close as the marketing wonks and other fans would have us believe.

    How much of the electronic kit we use daily, has failures, glitches of one kind or another, or the software suddenly develops gremlins?

    Most of these items that develop faults, we can belt with a hammer, take to a service centre or call out a technician, not so easy when you multi-ton item is doing 70MPH on a motorway.

    I have yet to hear anything about an equivalent to the annual MOT check for autonomic systems either, particularly as there are no standards that can so far be applied to such systems.

    How do these systems deal with black ice, aquaplaning and other severe weather that can occur unexpectedly?

    1. ThatOne Silver badge

      Re: Level 5

      > I don't believe a truly autonomous car is anything like as close as the marketing wonks and other fans would have us believe

      The problem is that driving is a very complicated action, it's not like chess, where the rules are known, fixed, and thus you can easily calculate the finite amount of possibilities.

      Driving includes an awful lot of unknowns and "what ifs", which require the "gut feeling" you only get with experience. An AI, no matter how good, will always be and remain a novice driver, likely to be surprised by anything it didn't "expect" (not in its database).

    2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: Level 5

      I think black ice and aquaplaning are actually relatively simple problems. Relatively.

      I expect an autonomous vehicle to have more difficulty with situations that require interpretation. A sinkhole opens in a road, say (this happens reasonably often in the US), the police show up and start directing traffic by hand around the hole. It will be quite a while before we have an AV that can recognize and cope with that sort of thing.

      Or here's one that happened to me a few months back: I was driving down the Interstate and noticed up ahead a cruiser parked just past the off-ramp for the next exit, with an officer standing outside the car and waving to drivers to indicate they should take the exit. I did, and turned down the access road that ran alongside the highway there, and sure enough a mile or two later traffic on the highway was stopped by an accident. I bypassed it and rejoined the highway at the next on-ramp.

      It's trivial for a navigation system to find the detour around the accident. But if the accident just happened -- as in this case -- that information wouldn't be available to an AV until there are enough AVs on the road talking to one another. (And that's a whole other problem with AVs, but save that for another rant, since it's not exclusive to AVs anyway.) An AV would have a lot of trouble recognizing the officer gesturing by the side of the road, and interpreting that gesture correctly.

  7. Pete 2 Silver badge

    Binary or non-binary?

    > Whether a car is self-driving or not isn't a binary

    From a driver / owner perspective (and therefore a domestic purchaser's), it kinda is.

    Either a car needs an operator who is licensed, legally allowed to control the vehicle and responsible for any consequences, or it doesn't.

    When considering full autonomy, it seems to me that while the goal is worthwhile and hugely advantageous, it is still a long way off. An unkind (yet fitting) analogy would be Linux taking over the desktop - still not there!

  8. Spamfast
    FAIL

    I'll send flowers...

    transport expert Christian Wolmar previously describing fully autonomous driving as an over-hyped pipe dream

    I'm glad I'm not the only sceptic commenting here or in the industry.

    The simplest form of passenger transport to automate is the train - brakes & throttle control only and track section occupancy managed centrally and backed with automatic emergency brake systems between the tracks & vehicles. Yet as far as I know there is not one autonomous open ground passenger train service that runs at speeds above a walking pace anywhere in the world. (Underground & elevated systems are not 'open ground'.)

    If it were safe to do so, train operators would have had no problems getting recent UK governments to allow them to replace all those annoying RMT drivers!

    1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

      Re: I'll send flowers...

      The DLR is the exception, I think. A lot of it is ground level.

      1. AW-S

        The DLR - it's somewhat complicated

        Ground level, but not like a tram.

        An interesting discussion here: https://citymonitor.ai/transport/london-s-dlr-subway-or-it-tram-3134

  9. mevets

    Not quite...

    " Legislation simply has not kept up with technical progress, and features like Autopilot are technically illegal in the UK."

    How about:

    "Technical progress has simply not reached the point where legislation should permit features like Autopilot".

    Or even better:

    "Accidents involving autonomous driving software necessarily result in criminal and civil charges against the manufacturer."

    And see how long before the insurance companies stop the insanity for us.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Not quite...

      > "Technical progress has simply not reached the point where legislation should permit features like Autopilot"

      Unfortunately it's more along the lines of "Lobbying has simply not reached the point where legislation can't but permit features like Autopilot"...

  10. Version 1.0 Silver badge
    Joke

    Powered by software

    So what happens when you are driving around and the screen says, "Updating, please reboot in ten minutes" ... but the boot's full ...

    The car screen then says, "You battery is fully charged, rebooting now"

    And the reboot completes with the message on the screen, "GPS is not working, please select the country that you are driving in, UK or EU" - of course to be safe the car would be in the middle of the road until you select the option.

  11. Anonymous Coward
  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I rather like driving

    Manual transmission, sports mode, speed and some twisty bits.

    Self driving sounds like death to me.

  13. Danny Boyd

    Tell you what...

    If I ever wanted a car with a mind of its own, I'd buy a horse.

    1. quxinot

      Re: Tell you what...

      If I wanted my car to take me whereever it wanted rather than where I wanted to go?

      I'd let the wife drive.

      (Jury's out on which the more expensive option is, mind you!)

    2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: Tell you what...

      Or James May's line: "We've had self-driving cars for years. They're called taxis."

  14. sgp

    Living in a country where a significant part of traffic infrastructure isn't even built in a way so that it is in accordance with the traffic laws, I doubt to ever see autonomous vehicles driving around. Especially not ones that were trained and tested on American roads.

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