back to article Blind man sues Dell over inaccessible website

A legally blind man who cannot see faces or text claims Dell violated federal accessibility laws when it formatted its website and online store improperly. The lawsuit [PDF], filed on March 3, 2021 in a Massachusetts federal court, said that Dell made it harder for visually impaired people to interact with the platform than …

  1. karlkarl Silver badge

    I always wonder if using an accessibility screen scraper would be like using a curses based web browser like lynx or links. If so, then it is a miracle anyone using them can get any work done. "Modern" websites are terrible!

    I can see how a non-sighted developer can use i.e ed / ex line editors to get their work done because they aren't *too* bad to use once you get the hang of it (and there is a large proportion of blind / poorly sighted developers). But websites just suck.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Blind user here and it's not necessarily the same. The access we have isn't limited to CLI text views. We can access properly-written GUIs. For example, I'm writing this comment in completely standard Firefox and it works just fine. A lot of stuff works pretty well, as long as they've designed their site well. In fact, if there are any web developers out there, you almost never need to do something unusual for the visually impaired; if your site is broken for us, it's likely poorly designed for the sighted too. Similarly, when I write code, I'm not using a line editor. I'm using the same text editors and most of the same IDEs you use. Emacs, Notepad++, Visual Studio, XCode, all of these work reasonably well.

      Most accessibility issues are very basic. Labeling is something a lot of UI developers don't seem to understand. If the label is a picture, it just says "button". Now I don't know what picture they used that works so great for the sighted, but if there's any text in it, they could have just bothered to type it again one field over in the alternative label tag. The other side of that coin is a problem too. If you've ever used the Zoho webmail system, don't go blind. Their interface probably looks fine, but they've implemented almost all of it with text labels that do something if you manage to click on them, but none of them are links or buttons. This meant that I was pressing on random blocks of text, since everything on the page was reported "clickable" and watching absolutely nothing happen in response. For about three hours after which I left that and found a replacement mail provider. Focus is another part that people can do wrong, although I know that can affect sighted people as well. For example, I remember a store page which had a timer for how long they'd reserve an item while you purchased it. It was implemented with a JS script that updated the value every second but set focus to it. The result was that I had trouble actually filling out the purchase fields because every second, the page was making my screenreader read out the countdown.* These are not very complicated things. I've almost universally found that a developer who just sticks to the standards is unlikely to find anything breaking.

      *I couldn't disable JS because the payment mechanism wouldn't accept payment information without it. Another developer who could have worked a little harder.

      1. karlkarl Silver badge

        This is really useful insight. Thanks!

        By the way, if you don't mind me asking, when you use Emacs, VS, etc what is your general workflow? Do you have to memorize much of the code layout, do you navigate by search?

        My assumption of it being more like a line editor was because I would imagine a text-to-speech reader just prattling on would be painful unless you can pinpoint individual lines. If you jump to a line and you wait for the text-to-speech to kick in, then realize that was, i.e the forward declare rather than the actual implementation that surely breaks workflow?

        I have always wondered because I would love to actually look into using this for debugging embedded devices without a screen. It would be a really useful skill for onsite debugging.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I use the same keyboard navigation that you could, minus the mouse which is pretty much useless. I navigate between lines with the arrows and rely on certain features of the screenreader to figure out the context if I don't know where I am already. For that purpose, two things are important. First, I need the speech to start fast; I use a voice which is robotic primarily because it has almost no latency from focus change to talking. Second, I also use sound queues, which may not be good for everybody. For example, I have set my screenreader to indicate how indented a line is by playing a tone as it begins to read that line. The higher the pitch of the tone, the more indented this is. I really like this approach but I know people who don't. One major reason I may like it more than others is that I have perfect pitch, which means I know without reference exactly what note that was and therefore how indented the line is.

          If you want to build an audio interface for debugging, I recommend that you give it an input you can quickly press to move between data. Also, make sure you can interrupt the audio because you'll need to skip stuff you don't care about. Other details will depend more on what you have and what controls you want to have available.

          1. karlkarl Silver badge

            That is a great idea with the pitch for indentation. That does indeed provide a nicer solution than a void saying *space* *space* *space* *space*. Agreed, I would possibly need something easier than pitch for my duff ears. A dog barking for 2 spaces, a duck quacking for 4 spaces, a man saying "incorrect" for a tab, etc ;)

            For the input I was actually just thinking a usb keyboard. I am already pretty much using the CLI for everything (minus web browsing actually). So if I could just get more proficient at using i.e (n)vi or vim from an audio output it would be so convenient. For the very embedded chips, I would need to possibly make some keyboard to RS-232 adapter but that could be another project.

            Anyway, thanks again for the info. Certainly something to think on.

            1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

              karlkarl,

              Speech sucks as an interface, in my opinion. I’d much rather use text, and I’ve got 5% vision. I’m literally choosing physical pain over the pain in the arse that is using a screen reader. That’s pain from wearing heavy 5x magnification telescopes on my glasses that hurt my nose and pull on my ears, and staring at a bright screen when the cause of my eye condition is sensitivity to light.

              Speech is slower than reading. Though many blind users get so good at it that they can run their screen readers at double or triple speed to compensate. It also requires extra concentration. It’s much easier for the mind to wander and miss a vital word, with text you just scan back a few words and carry on. With voice, you’ve got to rewind, remember where you are, reset your train of thought and start again.

              When vision is difficult you learn to adapt. You use your memory more to avoid the hassle of having to keep looking at things. When most people can just glance at it and remind themselves. You try to memorise user interfaces and menus. Imagine with a screen reader every time you open a menu, it’s going to read the whole bloody thing at you! Unless you stop it, or learn the keyboard shortcuts. Does anyone like those bloody awful automatic menu systems that call centres use? No, because it’s a UI that strains our memory and concentration. And often confuses.

              But with practise, you can get good at it. Particularly if you have little choice...

              Practical example. I looked at setting up a company importing better, mostly US, kit for people with visual impairments. Because we have a lot of government support here, we tend to get what we’re given, not what’s actually good. My NHS reading glasses are held together with tape or glue, due to a design flaw that's been on every pair the hospital have given me since 1978. I’ve bought my own before, but at £800-£1,000 a pop, it’s not cheap. And because the competition is free "good enough", it’s hard to persuade people into the market, and hard to guarantee you can get spares later.

              This company had built a dedicated talking sat nav. It was brilliant. But imagine how many sub menus you use when setting your destination and requirements. You needed to be an IT genius with the memory of an elephant to use it. And it didn’t sell well. Their next unit was basically a talking map. Press location button, it tells you where you are. Press save button, it remembers where you are, and can direct you back there. You could program in 5 saved locations from a PC and get directions to those. Or if on a bus, you could get it to describe your journey, so you knew where to get off. Less flexible, less powerful, but also much more user-friendly, it sold well. The trick is often to find the tool that does the job least badly, or most conveniently. Oh, and with practise you can get used to most things.

              1. Roland6 Silver badge

                This company had built a dedicated talking sat nav. It was brilliant. But imagine how many sub menus you use when setting your destination and requirements. You needed to be an IT genius with the memory of an elephant to use it.

                Going back circa 20 years, we found when developing a spoken interface to an application, that it was much easier if the application/webservice had a WAP interface. This was because the WAP interface being so reduced, meant the developers had to think about what users wanted and how they would want to interact with an application to get what they wanted out of it.

            2. Spiz
              Coat

              Or *tab* *tab* *tab* *tab*

              It's ok - I'm leaving anyway...

          2. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

            I would spell sound cue with letters Charlie Uniform Echo, but this may surprise many people.

            I don't have much advice for people who think about computer accessibility all the time while I don't, but I have considered that while devices for disabled users often are extremely expensive, devices for computer games playing are also expensive, but are less expensive. One project which I didn't get around to finishing was to use a special pad made for games where you could stick on game control buttons wherever you liked. That wasn't made to be a complete keyboard, but it is what I had in mind to build. But touch screens came along instead.

          3. Baudwalk

            As a blind person writing and reading code, do you have any comments on how various programming languages' syntax translate to screen readers?

            Any favourites or pet peeves?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              I don't really have any specific preferences, but a few things can be more annoying. Usually, it's really long lines with a lot of punctuation. Shell scripts (Linux or PowerShell alike) are annoying, but I didn't like those anyway so I am probably a biased source. I use a lot of the popular languages and I have no problem with their syntax.

              For those wishing to understand how a line sounds through a speech interface, there are a few things that might not be obvious. The first is punctuation. I can set the screenreader to read out certain punctuation or send it to the synthesizer directly, which will try to speak naturally. Most of the time, I do not have lots of punctuation announced. So for a line like this:

              for (int i = 0; i < s.length(); i++)

              Only the punctuation that would normally be announced in speech gets read out by default. You can imagine it sounding like this: "for, i equals 0, i less s dot length, i plus plus". This speeds up reading unless I have a typo. If I do have a typo, I might find this while reading in braille (I have a braille display which can output a line of text in braille dots), by inspecting by character, or just by turning up the punctuation level. My default level is "some punctuation". At "most punctuation", it sounds like "for left paren i equals 0 semi, i less s dot length left paren right paren semi, i plus plus right paren". That's handy when you're learning to code for the first time, but after that, it just adds time to the workflow because how often do we really type a line like that wrong.

              The comment above about speech as a slow interface makes a point I forgot to. A lot of people who use speech turn the speech rate up a lot. This is another reason I'm using a robotic speech synthesizer; the ones that use recorded human speech sometimes get a little gnarly when asked to speak at 600 words per minute.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Hey, if you fancy doing a bit of consulting on this topic we'd be pretty interested I think. I'm directly involved in one of the accessibility specs being developed, and while there are others bringing their expertise to that group, opinions or test results from someone that understands software might be pretty useful on occasion. Might come to nothing, but if interested say so in a reply, and I'll nicely ask our Vulture overlords to forward an email.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I'm happy to discuss what you have in mind. I'm not sure if the forum admins will do that, but we can always try. I just checked the house rules and I'm not supposed to put contact information in posts, so if that doesn't work we can find an alternative method.

          1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

            I emailed Jude, the author of the article - hopefully she's forwarded it on to you.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

              1. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

                At least one of you appears to be posting anonymously which could impede communication....

    2. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

      Re: a curses based web browser like lynx or links

      Hmm, surely that's a perfect description of Internet Explorer?

  2. This post has been deleted by its author

  3. Alan Brown Silver badge

    not overly surprised

    The number of websites which can work with text-based browsers can be counted on one hand and government websites are amongst the worst offenders

    People STILL use the line "Internet Explorer is a standard" when w3c borkage is pointed out (https://validator.w3.org is your friend) - now modified to "XYZ other browser" but it really shows the competence of the average web code monkey when they don't even know there's a standards body they should be complying with (quite large outfits will push back on standards breakage complaints claiming there's no problem)

    Then there's the privacy-breaching (GDPR) implications of having 3rd party javascript on the page - particularly that from googleanalytics, facebook.net, twitter, etc.

    Informed consent? I didn't think so

    1. Halfmad

      Re: not overly surprised

      Most of those GDPR cookie pop ups aren't compliant with GDPR anyway as they default to max tracking or make disabling any part of them challenging on desktop, nevermind on a mobile device. I was once asked to disable individually the companies I didn't want to track my usage, I think the list was around 110 companies long, each with an individual tick box - or I could accept.

      1. JDPower Bronze badge

        Re: not overly surprised

        Yup, I've been on one of those sites too.

        Also, just this last week, went on a well known UK supplements site to be met with a popup offering the options "Manage cookies" and "Accept". Problem being nothing happened when clicking on 'manage cookies'. Only way to close the popup was click on 'accept'

      2. Elledan

        Re: not overly surprised

        An interesting thing I have noticed is that many of those GDPR popups are loaded from some external server using JavaScript, and my JavaScript blocker (NoScript) completely nukes those popups as a result.

        Makes me wonder whether that means I got automatically selected to get all cookies. Probably did. Good thing I disabled accepting cookies from third parties, I guess :)

  4. IGotOut Silver badge

    Its amazing..

    ..how many websites don't either bother with the real basics, such as alt text.

    1. Little Mouse

      Re: Its amazing..

      On the plus side, I haven't seen the phrase "Best viewed in 800×600 on Internet Explorer" for quite a while...

      1. Sgt_Oddball

        Re: Its amazing..

        Pretty sure that died a death along with Geocities and 'website under construction' banners forever on some freebie hosting space.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Its amazing..

        >"Best viewed in 800×600..."

        Shame more developers don't allow for this screen size when designing window layouts, it would probably massively improve the UI/UX as they would have to think more about how they used the more limited real estate. MS Windows 7 and 10 are prime examples of software with dialog boxes that are too tall to display on a netbook's 1366x768 display, giving problems accessing the Okay/Cancel buttons....

  5. FlippingGerman

    Harder

    "harder for visually impaired people to interact with Dell's platforms than it is for sighted users" - well, yes. Being visually impaired makes things harder, that's why it's classed as a disability, so I'm not sure why he bothered saying this.

    But they have a legal and social responsibility to make their site usable for visually impaired people too, so I wish him the best of luck.

    That said, Dell's website is simply hard to use in general, and I'm pretty sure that's at least partly by design. And ever since LinusTechTips recent video, where they try to buy a PC and are actually scammed by their sales team, I've been pretty unimpressed by Dell.

  6. s. pam Silver badge
    FAIL

    if it's cheap as hell

    it's gotta be Dell.

    though in fairness, all websites suck according to a friend in the screenreader market, and pop ups are especially evil.

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: if it's cheap as hell

      Google has made it far more important that web sites meet their mobile accessibility standards than anything else.

  7. mark l 2 Silver badge

    I suspect well over 90% of modern website which have put style over substance would fail also, so I do hope this chap wins the case and get a nice payout and it forces Dell to overhaul their site design, as that would surely scare the shit out of all these other none compliant website to sort themselves out to.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "that would surely scare the shit out of all these other none compliant website to sort themselves out to."

      You're assuming they are the sort of people who read the tech news on the subject. I suspect most of them live in their own little bubbles. and I don't mean COVID bubbles :-)

  8. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
    Megaphone

    To web designers

    Put fucking borders around your text boxes, you numbskulls! How the fuck am I supposed to see them otherwise?!?!

    Text using visually impaired here, so no screen reader. I just use magnification. Which by definition severely limits my field of view. So visual clarity is good, borders and clear separation of page elements are dead useful - as well as being basic good design. And modern, flat, low contrast designs suck farts from dead cats! Stop it!

    Ooh I can feel my blood pressure rising, as the rant builds. First it’s the exclamation marks, soon I feel the bold text coming on... Will we reach the stage of all CAPS before I can control myself?

    Found an old post of mine this week. From the Quid a Day Nosh Posse, as organised by the late, lamented Lester Haines. We miss you! The Go Fund Me page we used had light, pale orange text on a white background. Why? What’s wrong with black? Or if you must use orange, make it bright, and have it against a black background. If the marketing gibbons want to use pale orange, buy them some bloody crayons!

    Most of this stuff isn’t hard. Oh and Dell's UK site is horrible as well. But, as someone above said, it’s probably deliberate. The number of times I’ve got halfway through buying something on someone’s site, and then just given up in either confusion or disgust, is ludicrous. Clear text, contrast, clear lines or borders between sections of the page and buttons are all I ask for.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: To web designers

      That's a fair rant I expect. I'm not a web developer, but I am peripherally involved in the standards process - before that I hadn't fully considered the "contrast" aspect of accessibility. Fortunately others have, and there are (or will be) ways a web developer can be informed that the person viewing the page prefers high contrast colors (see https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/prefers-contrast).

      This area of CSS is evolving quite rapidly - there's a lot of energy being expended on it by browser companies, so presumably a lot more customer interest too. The Moz page above shows "no support" across the board, but that's because these features have only recently been specced. It's not going to stay that way for long.

      It's worth noting this Dell lawsuit is the latest in a sequence of lawsuits in the US that started with the Dominos accessibility case in the US (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/07/dominos-supreme-court.html), shortly after which we saw a marked uptick in people suddenly giving a damn about accessibility support in our software. Lawsuits are very motivational for companies. So more power to the claimant in this one.

      (Last of my links - there's a decent accessibility evaluation tool for websites at https://wave.webaim.org/, if you're a web developer you should be using it).

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: To web designers

        "Lawsuits are very motivational for companies."

        It's such a shame that it has to come to that. Maybe there needs to be a catchphrase and a campaign to highlight the spending power of disabled people as a whole. I suspect the businesses who currently don't give a damn unless forced by law might start to give a damn when the realise the sales or clicks they are losing. They probably assume that all disabled people can't hold down a job and have no spare cash to spend. I assume other countries have had a a similar experience to the UK headlines and campaigns highlighting, eg the "grey pound" and the "pink pound".

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: To web designers

      "So visual clarity is good, borders and clear separation of page elements are dead useful - as well as being basic good design. And modern, flat, low contrast designs suck farts from dead cats! Stop it!"

      Applies to all software, especially stuff from Microsoft who years back had a decent UI and wrote a design guide to encourage people to use it; they then decided such a useful UI was "old fashioned" and replaced it with "modern" UI's like TIFKAM...

      From the leaks about MS's proposed changes to the UI/UX in 10X things are going to get worse, even for sighted people.

  9. Dr. Ellen

    Operation Longlife

    I had a friend who was both blind and without hands. He wanted to write. Some kind of organization gave him a PC XT 286, which was a computer intermediate between the PC and the XT. It lived in a PC box, but had a 286 processor. IBM didn't make many; rumor says they were using up their PC cases before they got to making the AT. (Yes, they existed: https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=260 )

    Since it was an orphan of sorts, repair parts were hard to come by. He'd learned the program (both reader and word processor) and didn't feel like changing -- I quite agreed when I tried to shoehorn some other screen reader into a 386. It involved a special output card, as well, The company had disappeared without a trace. So I ended up maintaining an old, scarce computer for about twenty-five years.

    I made a new keyboard for him. He'd learned to use a peculiar keyboard with a modified typewriter, so I made a larger copy mated to a regular keyboard (I had to get access too, for maintenance.) Thank heavens Windows hadn't been created, because I haven't the faintest idea of how to make a mouse. But that PC-286 was his friend and muse, and he wrote a lot with it. (I have a novel he did. Rather Wodehouse, it was.) And I kept it going until the day he died.

  10. Jon 37

    PR nonsense

    "Dell Technologies' accessibility policy strives to remove barriers for people of all abilities ..."

    It's not clear to me how a written policy can "strive" to do something, or how a written policy on it's own will "remove barriers". Of course, if you just want a fig leaf to point at, writing a policy (that you then ignore) is a lot cheaper and easier than actually doing accessible design.

    In other words: the Dell statement is 100% PR fluff, 0% content.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: PR nonsense

      That's actually a very good point and will weigh in heavily on the side of the prosecution. They are clearly not following their own stated policy,

  11. Elledan
    Meh

    I have used JAWS

    Even though I am (still) a sighted person, I have used JAWS while developing a GUI-based desktop application for a blind client. To say that this was a highly revealing experience is an understatement. Keeping track of what a UI looks like and interpreting what the screenreader is telling you is very taxing.

    Being an old-school developer, I have tried to always fill in my alt="alt" parameters and mind my tab order. Also because I'm a heavy keyboard navigation user and GUI apps which screw up tab order make one want to take something blunt and heavy to the developer's... laptop.

    Modern-day website design is absolutely atrocious for accessibility. With most sites being rendered purely in JavaScript, with the browser desperately trying to keep up and re-render the page fifty times every time some JavaScript modifies the page's HTML or content, using a screenreader with this is even more frustrating than using it when sighted. Know the fun of having the link you're trying to click suddenly jump down a few cm because of an image or ad which loaded elsewhere on the page? It's something like that, only more frustrating when one has to begin navigating all over again.

    Desktop GUIs aren't much better, with some GUI frameworks not even supporting accessibility (via the OS's accessibility APIs) at all, or not offering a sane default (e.g. replicating the label on a button) when the developer cannot be bothered to fill in alternate text.

    Ironically it seems that the trend these days with GUIs is to make them actively hostile to anyone without perfect sight, as noted by other comments as well. With the focus on '3D' in the past, one could easily tell where a window or interactive element began and ended, using drop shadows and other visual hints. Now that everything is 'flat' and you get essentially monochrome UIs with rectangular widgets on rectangular windows with no gradients, drop shadows or other decorations, you have a better chance of finding your way around the Win3.x UI than in today's OS monstrosities.

    Accessibility isn't dead yet, but along with basic GUI design it seems to be dying a slow and agonisingly monochrome and dystopian-styled death.

  12. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

    Tick boxes

    Long before my beard went grey tick boxes had a tick for true, no tick for false and you could often work out from the label what effect true and false had.

    Modern fashion in web design is to represent a tick box with a slide switch that is particularly unclear whether the current position means left or right. Whether left or right is true is a complete guess and what would be true if you guess right is probably "Heads they win, tails you lose".

    Disable preventing your medical records being automatically sent to directly to Palantir now or at a later date? (⊙<->⊚)

    1. TimMaher Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Tick boxes

      On the odd occasion that I “craft” a web page, I try to remember to use Ajax (Other event driven products are available) to re-write an alternative text with information about the current state of a switch. I hope that it helps a bit.

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Tick boxes

      That’s a good point about the tick box / radio button as opposed to slider. Apple's left = grey = off vs right = green = on is OK for me, but probably not ideal for others and they don’t always behave predictably on a touch screens. Android seem to have changed green for blue, which I suppose does mean "on" with much kit nowadays having blue LEDs.

      But I have noticed a few websites, and even the odd app, doing dark grey = left = off and light grey = right = on. Which is pretty rubbish.

      Also, way too many sites are eschewing the humble button, in favour of the text link. Which by definition is much harder to see and doesn’t draw the eye. A poster above suggested the Windows 3.x UI would be easier to use than some of these modern designs. When you go back to a piece of software using that interface, it does look aggressively ugly. So I’ll give modern designers some points for improving things. Surely we can find a middle way...

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Tick boxes

        >When you go back to a piece of software using that interface, it does look aggressively ugly.

        Even at the time it was ugly compared to the various Unix desktops such as MOTIF, SunView and the Mac...

        Yes, MS did improve on it, Windows 2000 and XP Classic weren't bad.

  13. very angry man

    The lawsuit [PDF], filed on Wednesday this week in a Massachusetts federal court, alleged that it is harder for visually impaired people to interact with Dell's platforms than it is for sighted users, thus violating the effective communication and equal access requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

    surely a blessing in disguise

  14. Chris Evans

    Text as a graphic.

    I regularly used to receive special offers from various IT companies and the offers were sent only as an image with little if any info in the alt text. I pointed out the problem to a number of the companies but they ignored me or 'passed it on' but nothing ever changed.

    Ingram Micro was one of them, I opted out of marketing emails so don't know if they ever fixed the problem.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Text as a graphic.

      I made it clear that as someone spending upwards of $200k/year on kit that any company which did that got struck off my purchasing consideration list

      That seemed to get some attention

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