Facial recog biz denies its software identified 'antifa members' among mob that stormed Capitol Hill

The facial recognition company said to have identified antifa members among rioters who ransacked Capitol Hill last week denied that its technology had ever done such a thing. The rumour started in an article (since deleted) in Washington Times and was later spread by Matt Gaetz, a representative from Florida's fourth district …

[Hubert Cumberdale]

The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

...is that "antifa" is not an actual identifiable thing: to these crazies, it's a collective name for anyone that disagrees with them and with whom they have decided they are at war (cf. Eastasia). They can then insist that whatever the problem is, antifa is the problem.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Who needs AI when so many of them outed themselves in real time on social media?

[Danny 2]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

"its software had actually spotted neo-Nazi and QAnon supporters among the crowd"

Not the proudest boast for the software, given the T shirts, signs, flags and baseball caps they were wearing. Plus, for extra irony, their lack of facemasks.

It reminds me of the 'Silicon Valley' program that could identify any food image as either "Not a hotdog" or "Hotdog".

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Who needs AI when so many of them outed themselves in real time on social media?

One was apparently swiftly identified due to his wearing his company ID badge. Strangely enough, that person is now unemployed.

But I'm still curious about this chappie-

https://twitter.com/AmyMek/status/1347147785926103043

and what will happen to him. At least he was easy to identify after giving an interview on CNN..

[MiguelC]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

well, a 5 second google search returns this... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/09/facebook-posts/facebook-posts-wrongly-claim-left-wing-activist-an/

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

well, a 5 second google search returns this...

Err, right. I mean left. I mean-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynter_Institute

In 2019, Poynter used various "fake news" databases (including those curated by the Annenberg Public Policy Center, Merrimack College, PolitiFact, and Snopes) to compile a list of over 515 news websites that it labeled "unreliable." Poynter called on advertisers to "blacklist" the sites on the list.

Kind of odd for an 'institute' who's mission statement is apparently to promote ethical & responsible journalism. Especially given one of it's curators of fake news is PolitiFact, a subsidiary of.. ermm.. Poynter. And Snopes is of course Snopes. But such is business, and the manufacturing of fake news & consensus. Or in this case, just setting up strawmen-

The post was flagged as part of Facebook’s efforts to combat false news and misinformation on its News Feed. (Read more about our partnership with Facebook.) Other posts sought to link him to antifa.

So Poynter/PolitiFact decide it's 'fake news', then Facepalm gets to say it's 'fake news', because they've outsourced their 'fact' checking to Poynter.. What a glorious circle jerk! And then based on one Facepalm post, it gets to do some more circular reasoning, and Poynter's 'facts' become the official narrative, at least amongst it's customers.. Like the news organisations that think their 'fact checking' is reliable.

But there are other facts, which are perhaps more clearly in evidence-

1) He was there, and there at one of the event's most violent incidents, ie the shooting.

2) His CNN interview said he tried to yell out warnings, yet other 'documentary makers' don't seem to have picked up his words.. Despite the incident being recorded from multiple angles, but multiple parties.

3) His claim of just being there to document probably aren't a very good defence. Or if for some reason he's not prosecuted, then I guess other people can try the same defence.

4) He's been on record supporting Antifa, and At other points, he appeared to encourage what was happening. As rioters scaled a wall outside, for example, he cheered them on. "We did this s---, together," he said after the barricades came down. "This is f------ history. We’re all a part of this f------ history." which sounds like incitement rather than just passively & neutrally recording events.

5) "I was not leading that in any shape, form or fashion," Sullivan said of the mob that bashed through windows and doors and stormed the Capitol. "I didn’t organize it. I had no part in planning it. I was only there to experience and witness what went down."

But-

https://web.archive.org/web/20210107195829/https://www.insurgenceusa.com/insurgence-usa-calendar.html

Hmm.. A calendar entry from his organisation for a jolly event where the intent is to 'Kick These Fascists Out Of DC' and 'Dump Trump For Good' and seeing as that was his 6th January event, kinda hard to then claim he had no part in leading, organising or planning that event. But kicking democratically elected officials out of office & Washington is pretty much the definition of a coup, insurrection, inciting violence or dare I say it, insurgency. If he was simply there to document, it wouldn't need an event and solicitations for his fellow travellers to join in, would it?

But you can see that there's more from his calendar, like the 23rd January armed march to end government control. Which is all the more odd given the change of control already booked for the 20th, when the new government takes control. Or perhaps his 23rd Jan event will be cancelled due to the organiser being avoidably detained..

But such is politics. Strange days when PolitiFact runs interference for a self-declared, far-left 'insurgent'. I wonder if/when Sullivan's Twitter, Facepalm, Patreon etc accounts will be cancelled for inciting violence an attempting to overthrow the US government?

(rhetorical question)

[yetanotheraoc]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

I didn't downvote, just wondering though:

* Why would someone create a calendar event for 06-Jan that first appears on 07-Jan?

* Why would you link to it?

[ratfox]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Logic does not necessarily have to go into it. Even the Jamiroquai guy who posed on the podium of the Senate, who is a well-known and identified person openly advocating for Trump, has been claimed to be an actor on the basis of him showing up once at a climate change event.

On a related note, Jamiroquai has been trending on Google

[chivo243]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

So true... Like so many people, they need a boogey man in their lives, some one to take the blame for everything out of their control.

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

I would not trust the identification as the software is not the most reliable. The error rate both ways is extremely high for it be reliable for any use.

When using video/photo evidence one has to be wary of angles, lighting, camera settings, etc. that may distort the face. Also, how well the software discriminates between 2 people who strongly resemble themselves needs to be addressed.

[DavCrav]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

"Also, how well the software discriminates between 2 people who strongly resemble themselves needs to be addressed."

True, but in this case it finds that a neo-Nazi bears a strong resemblence to someone storming the seat of government. So, you know, it is likely to be on the money.

[martinusher]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Unless these people walked from their homes, wore masks and did not carry cellphones then they'll have left all manner of traces. There's also another widely used form of facial recognition called "I know this guy" -- its also falliable but its been used in successful criminal prosecutions for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Fellow Yank... Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Its not a question of a single identification.

Take the ANTIFA idiot who claimed to be there documenting things when he was filmed breaking a window.

He was identified and his photo was compared and identified as someone out of Utah at both BLM and Antifa events.

So while single photos and events may be suspect, if you can limit the pool of offenders and then compare to photos taken at other events, you tend to be more reliable.

BTW, anyone who thought it was a good idea to march on the Capitol is an idiot.

If you're going to condemn those who support Trump you need to also condemn the BLM and Antifa rioters as well. (Which CNN and MSNBC have characterized as 'peaceful protests'. )

And for those who live on the eastern side of the pond think this is only an American issue, I can easily find photos of riots and police using water cannons in the UK, France and other countries. I seem to recall truckers in France rioting not too long ago...

[Pascal Monett]

Re: I seem to recall truckers in France rioting not too long ago...

Yeah but, it's a tradition in France. We have riots every year, somewhere. Just like we have fireworks every July 14th.

What we do not have is a bunch of idiots storming Le Parlement with the idea that they can change the outcome of a vote.

What we do not have either is a voting system so obsolete that it takes weeks to get results.

We have our presidential election results at 20h00 on election day. I wonder why "the most powerful country in the world" is incapable of replicating that.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: I seem to recall truckers in France rioting not too long ago...

>What we do not have is a bunch of idiots storming Le Parlement with the idea that they can change the outcome of a vote.

The problem is that there is no French word for guillotine

[Jellied Eel]

Re: I seem to recall truckers in France rioting not too long ago...

What we do not have is a bunch of idiots storming Le Parlement with the idea that they can change the outcome of a vote.

Like you say, you have tradition. Like farmers with their muck spreaders. But France also has it's riot police & civil defence forces who tend not to mess around with not-so-peaceful protestors. Which has been a challenge for the US, eg videos of their police last summer being pelted with rocks etc pretty much in their shirt sleeves. Which went a long way to explaining why US police officers suffered so may injuries during last year's peaceful protests. Countries like the UK & France learned the hard way that when protests aren't peaceful, it's time to break out the heavy duty PPE & take the land sharks for walkies..

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: I seem to recall truckers in France rioting not too long ago...

>eg videos of their police last summer being pelted with rocks etc pretty much in their shirt sleeves.

The police lacking access to military levels of kit was definitely a problem for the BLM protests.

Many smaller forces don't even have tactical nuclear weapons

[Potemkine!]

Re: I seem to recall truckers in France rioting not too long ago...

What we do not have is a bunch of idiots storming Le Parlement with the idea that they can change the outcome of a vote.

We had such a similar event in our History. It's the riot of February, 6 1934. That led to the formation of the terrorist movement nicknamed La Cagoule, and was a founding event for the Vichy's regime.

[Michael Wojcik]

Re: I seem to recall truckers in France rioting not too long ago...

We have our presidential election results at 20h00 on election day. I wonder why "the most powerful country in the world" is incapable of replicating that.

Because voting is the responsibility of the various States (and assorted other jurisdictions, such as D.C.), and they all have their own ideas about how to do it and what it should involve.¹ And because it's a political football. And because there's money to be made in peddling crap electronic voting systems.

The USA has almost five times as many people as France, too, though I don't know what the ratio of voters in typical elections is. And arguably that shouldn't make much of a difference, since votes are (to a first approximation) tabulated mechanically.

¹Ballots differ among the states, and typically by smaller political divisions within the states. When I voted in November, my ballot had federal, state, county, and municipal sections. There were offices to vote for, some of which allowed multiple selections ("vote for not more than M of the following N candidates") and ballot questions. These change for every election, of course.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Funnily enough, I have a tendency to strongly resemble myself.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Hubert Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Err yes and no.

Yes ANTIFA is a loose knit organization based on a radical ideal and who's 'anti-fascist' tactics are more aligned to the Brown Shirts and fascist tactics which they openly claim to hate.

But I digress.

The important point is that the facial recognition software did in fact identify individuals who are openly on the left and support the use of violence. ANTIFA and BLM.

The only reason that they are denying this is that they saw what happened to Parler over this weekend.

I'm sure that this post will be downvoted, but smug gits who don't understand that beyond the 'Orange Man Bad' mentality, the values of which this country is built upon is being eroded.

We live in dangerous times and it will only get worse.

Not just in the US.

Check out what's happening in Hong Kong.

While I'm a Yank, you Brits handed over Hong Kong to China where they promised to honor Hong Kong's independence and democracy. Seems that ended over 2 decades too soon.

BTW, Where's Jack Ma?

And that my friend is the future of the US and other Western countries.

[Anonymous Coward]

@AC - Re: @Hubert The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

Yes, you are a Yank, you're not good at history and yes, you digress. Brits rightfully returned a teritory they occupied long time ago during the Opium Wars.

Also if BLM and AF were the crowd that stormed the Capitol, the law enforcement wold have been there in military full combat gear, with drones, hellicopters and armoured vehicles as they usually do.

And to conclude, China has nothing to do with what happes in US so stop hiding behind "look they're doing it too". Let's face it, your democracy is scr$%?wd without any foreign intervention at all.

[Palpy]

Re: "The important point is that the facial recognition software did in fact..."

"...identify individuals who are openly on the left and support the use of violence. ANTIFA and BLM."

I assume you mean, identified such individuals inside the Capitol on Wednesday the 6th. Show proof. I believe you're lying.

On an alt-right forum (a .onion site) I read anecdotal claims about "three suspicious people" on a bus on the way to the sedition-fest, "someone with a black hoodie on the Capitol steps", and similar mushy claims. AFAIK, every rioter arrested so far for invading the Capitol is a hard-case Trump supporter,a QAnon nut, a Boogaloo Booger, a Proud Boy, etc. No libs, no BLM activists, no one with Antifa-style sympathies.

An interesting contrast between the anti-fascists and the alt-right militants: the anti-fascists leverage social media to identify and pressure the alt-right militants, while attempting to guard their own identities and networks. The alt-right wannabe revolutionaries boast about themselves in social network posts and videos, essentially outing themselves -- and their networks -- to whomever cares to look. You can bet the FBI is collecting those social media feeds, and probably has multiple informants in all of the most violence-prone groups.

It's sick, but it's humorous, too. ISIS and Al Qaeda ops working in hostile terrain use burner phones, communicate on paper or verbally, and organize small cells with obfuscated command connections. The Boogers and their ilk do the opposite. They have no insurgent spy-craft at all. They practically paint targets on their own chests.

It seems rather clear to me that the political-industrial-military complex inside the US is massive and ubiquitous. It's a juggernaut. It seems likewise clear that self-aggrandizing dolts who call attention to themselves will be ground to sausage-meat as soon as the Big Machine becomes sufficiently annoyed. Which is not to say the the murderous bastards will not destroy property and kill people (they killed 329 Americans between 1994 and July, 2020; Antifa-connected people killed one). But the Big Machine responds to threats against it, and if the alt-right inconvenience starts to look like real danger, the political-industrial-military complex will take them out. The Boogers and their wanna-be revolutionary fellow-travelers are making it very, very easy for that to happen.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: "The important point is that the facial recognition software did in fact..."

AFAIK, every rioter arrested so far for invading the Capitol is a hard-case Trump supporter,a QAnon nut, a Boogaloo Booger, a Proud Boy, etc. No libs, no BLM activists, no one with Antifa-style sympathies.

<conspiracy>Of course there were no far-left arrests (Sullivan again). They have their Uncle Joe's 'get out of jail free' cards. </conspiracy>

The Boogers and their ilk do the opposite. They have no insurgent spy-craft at all. They practically paint targets on their own chests.

Hey, Buffalo Bellend's paint was on his face. Stuff on his chest were some rather badly inked tatts. But nothing says 'Ima serious & organised insurgent' quite like looking so distinctive. Anyway, the only reason more extreme-left wing agent provocateurs* haven't been identified is they're normally in their MiB masked-up riot chic. But yep, you're right.. The lack of any decent tradecraft kinda makes it hard to suggest these were serious coup plotters/instigators/participants. Especially given all the stuff Hollywood churns out to give tips on how proper bad guys (or gals) should dress or behave.

*kidding.. Mostly.

[Nature Lover]

Re: @Hubert The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

For a BLM protest there is a remarkable paucity of Afro-Americans (13.4% of US population). For that matter there is a remarkable paucity of anyone not looking white like me, for example asian americans (5.9%) or two races (2.8%).

[Sgt_Oddball]

Re: @Hubert The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

You forgot that it's been observed before that it's very easy to infiltrate a left 'organisation' like ANTIFA, and thus also very easy to intentionally be violent during a protest for the intention of invoking a negative view towards said organisation.

Having someone present at multi events where violence sprang up hints less that they're associated with said groups but more interested in watching the world burn.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: The main problem with trying to spot antifa members...

> "antifa" is not an actual identifiable thing

Yes it is: if (skin_tone_pixel < 128)

[Anonymous Coward]

The coup explained in 5 easy steps

The coup explained in 5 easy steps

1) Trump tries to force Georgia et al, to claim fraud and find more Trump votes on penalty of criminal case.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/03/us/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-georgia.html

2) Republicans led by Josh Hawley & Ted Cruz, try to use Step 1) as justification for a 10 day audit of election fraud. Delaying the certification until 16th or 17th of January.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/profoundly-sad-moment-for-our-country-gop-senators-line-up-behind-hawley-s-effort-to-contest-the-election/ar-BB1cqcbF

3) Mob under direction of Trump, attack Capitol Hill, trying to force plot step 2 to succeed.

4) Second armed militia (pafa2021), planned for 16th and 17th January, plan to seize control of Capitol Hill, and only let loyal Republicans enter the building, so that only their Republican group gets to vote on the fraud claim.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210106072816/https://pafa2021.com/how%2C-when%2C-where

This armed militia was to seize control of Capitol Hill, act as armed guards for Trump in the Whitehouse, and seize the Supreme Court and several road junctions.

5) The coup-plot Republicans that Step 4 allowed into Capitol Hill, then vote the audit showed election fraud and pass whatever law they want to seize power.

A coup.

You can see the elements don't make sense individually, but put them together and suddenly its clear what the plan was/is.

Q. Why try to overturn Georgia, it's no enough for Trump to win? No, but its needed to justify the 10 day 'audit'.

Q. Why 10 days? the House and Senate would simply accept the result after the 10 days? No, because the pafa2021 mob was to seal off Senate and Congress so only their *loyal* Republicans could vote.

Q. Why did the pafa2021 have an attack planned for 16/17th, yet claim to want to stop the Inauguration on the 20th? Because the vote of the Republicans on the 17th was the main part of the coup, not disrupting the Inauguration ceremony 3 days later.

Q. How early was the armed militia planned? 4th January or earlier, i.e. before the Mob attack on the 6th:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210104150859/https://www.militia.me/

Q. Why plot an armed militia for the 16th and 17th, when its too late, the certification would already have happened on the 6th?.... Because they also have the mob planned for the 6th, and the 10 day Republican 'audit' delay to take it till the 17th! i.e. see the linkage between the groups.

Q. Where does Parler come in? It's where they discussed and promoted the armed militia:

https://www.google.com/search?q=links%3Apafa2021.com

Q. What would stop the National Guard from stopping their mobs? That's a question to direct at Christopher C Miller. Why were they not permitted to enter the capitol Christopher? They needed permission from your department, which didn't arrive.

Q. What would stop the Capitol Police from shooting their guys? That's a question to direct to Steven Sund. Why did some of your officers direct people into the building and open the doors Steven?

There was a little subplot that happened. Step 2 had failed, Mitch McConnell decided to disobery Trump and hold the vote anyway in the evening. Trump and Rudy tried to get one day delay. Rudy even did one of his calls to voicemail while trying to get Tuberville to delay the vote:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/oh-rudy-giuliani-leaves-voice-mail-for-wrong-senator-begs-for-delay-to-biden-certification/ar-BB1cxytB

Not sure the exact sub-plot here, likely an appeal to the Supreme Court along the lines of 'delay the certification to calm this angry mob'.

Why did it fail?

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. It hasn't yet failed. Trump is still in power, there's still the Flynn coup attempt, and other coup attempts possible. Ted Cruz is doing his 'unity/healing' thing in public, perhaps he's selling them out, in exchange for a pardon in private.

9 days left, Trump is getting really really desperate. But there is no win scenario here, only coup *attempts*, each attempt more pathetic than the last. I cannot see a way he can win, only create more evidence.

At every stage of Trump's plotting, his plot has been predicted, investigated, mitigated against. But assuming he resigns and Pence gives him a pre-emptive pardon, you will only get the middle and little guys in jail for it. That's my expectations, Trump will walk way from this and leave others to face the time for his crimes.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

I think you give them far too much credit for their organisational abilities.

[First Light]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

I disagree. Once inside, it only took 11 minutes for them to get to the House Speaker's Office. If the Prez and VP were suddenly to die, the Speaker is the next in line to take over. That's the power of that office. Remember that the Capitol was closed due to COVID and under renovation also. This means they had inside information. The FBI is investigating this.

Also, those in the House Chamber had zipties to imprison Congresspeople. They had gas masks, pepper spray, helmets and tactical gear. There were pipe bombs found in one car. They had set up a mock guillotine and a noose. Several had guns and ammo in their vehicles.

This was organized and there was collusion and a lack of resistance from Capitol Police. Black or Muslim protestors would have been shot en masse. Of course, they never would have gotten so far in the first place.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Also, those in the House Chamber had zipties to imprison Congresspeople.

That claim seems to be mostly based around 1 person, who may have had the zip-ties to try and block doors.

They had gas masks, pepper spray, helmets and tactical gear.

Don't forget horns. As in Buffalo Bellend. But a lot of the images just seemed to show serious & organsed, violent coup conspirators just ambling around in casual clothes taking selfies. Note to those people: taking selfies in/at a criminal situation doesn't give you protection on any grounds of self-incrimination. It does however provide a grateful law enforcement a lot of good evidence. But anyway, a lot of that gear is just riot-chic, as modelled during peaceful protests in Portland, Seattle, Kenosha etc etc..

There were pipe bombs found in one car. They had set up a mock guillotine and a noose. Several had guns and ammo in their vehicles.

Yup. Obviously when you're planning to violently overthrow the government and instigate a coup, you leave your weapons in your car. Oops. But there were pipe bombs found outside both Democrat and Republican office buildings.. Which was a bit odd for a supposedly alt-right only coup. But much like with the selfies, law enforcement thanks protestors for making it easy to connect weapons to vehicle owners/renters. No doubt the ATF will be reminding a few people that the humble molotov cocktail is a destructive device, and construction/posession of such attracts serious jail time. Sometimes accompanied by a long stay in a burns unit.

But it's fascinating the way some people seem able to construct conspiracies out of half-truths.

[First Light]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Right. You know better about everything. Won't waste my time trying to convince you. The facts are widely available and are contrary to your view.

Continue to live in your alternate universe. I hope you can handle the cognitive dissonance.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Right. You know better about everything. Won't waste my time trying to convince you. The facts are widely available and are contrary to your view.

You don't seem to understand the difference between facts and opinions.. Which is understandable, if you're relying on a narrow range of poorly thought through 'facts'.

So here's a few facts. It's been a well established principle for a very long time that justice is blind. Laws are supposed to be applied equally. So if it's a crime for someone to be in a non-public place, without lawful authority, then that person could/should face prosecution.

It's been the opinion of many that all the people inside the Capitol without lawful authority should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and in some cases, beyond. Plenty of statements from politicians and pundits to that effect. Arrests have already been made of people who were inside the building.

It's a fact that Sullivan was one of those people. He admitted it. He provided video evidence admitting it. He was interviewed on CNN admitting it. So if simply being present is enough to be prosecuted, why no arrest?

Then some opinions. Why would PolitiFact cover for him? Being an alleged 'citizen journalist' isn't a legal defence. Nor would a press pass, if the person wasn't in an authorised area. Then as to any wider conspiracy.. Sullivan has the same problem as Buffalo Bellend, ie he was too quick and easy to identify, which wouldn't make him a very useful idiot. But still leaves questions about why he was inside the building, and why it would be ok for a self-declared anti-government 'insurgent' to go unpunished.

[Palpy]

@Jellied, re "...construct conspiracies out of half-truths."

Here's a rather long quote from the Patriot Action For America agenda, posted on the PAFA2021 website (archived) and linked from the Militia.me website.

"We the People are finished with government corruption at the hands of Democrats. January 16, 2021 we begin the process of exterminating the democrat ideology from America. This will be a broad reaching action, carried out in stages, across every state in the nation, targeting all Democrat politicians as well as the media sources, and, Technology companies that are paid to support and protect the democrat agenda. ... The estimated number of armed patriots needed for the PAFA2021 to move forward is approximately 15,000. This number would allow a force of 4,000 patriots per location in Washington, D.C., and establish road blocks at set locations to assist in maintaining order at the lock down points. At these roadblocks, patriot forces will also assist law enforcement in subduing any violence that may arise as a result of the PAFA2021. It needs to be reiterated that if at ANY point during the PAFA2021, patriot forces encounter physical attack or gun fire, that event will be classified as an initiation of war against America and will officially change the classification of the PAFA2021 to civil war."

"Exterminating the democrat ideology" by a "broad reaching action" targeting politicians, media sources, and tech companies doesn't really read like a conspiracy constructed "out of half-truths." It sounds a hell of a lot like just what the alt-right militias are conspiring to do. The plan -- for it is a plan, Jellied Eel -- escalates to civil war if the insurgents meet resistance.

Jellied, you might note the important keywords "exterminate" and "civil war".

I believe people who trivialize the very real aims of this insurgency are either complicit, or they are fools. I expect you, Jellied, are the latter. Please advise if you are complicit instead of just a fool.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Thank you - saved me the trouble of posting something similar -especially the bit about guns in vehicles.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

<conspiracy mode=on> if you were planning on ridding the king of a few turbulent priests - then inviting a few 100 idiots along to amuse the media circus wouldn't be the worst cover

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

<conspiracy mode=on> if you were planning on ridding the king of a few turbulent priests

Or the priests of their king. Or, if you were planning to introduce new legislation that goes beyond existing Patriot Act-style repression, it helps to throw bread to the circuses. Plans to crack down on 'domestic terrorism' were trailed weeks ago, events of the 6th provide the circus. It's made the 'iberal' left demand a wide range of illiberal policies and punishments. It's allowed Big Tech to crack down on freedom of expression. It's even provided that staple of the color revolution, a martyr for the mob to get behind.

But as with Pinochet, or just say, Hussein, Gadaffi, Assad etc etc.. the results aren't always what you might have hoped for. It's even prompted Frau Merkel to suggest the US crackdown is maybe going a bit too far, and she'd perhaps know from her old STASI days. But political warfare isn't always an exact science, and can take time to get the right results. The far-left's already been whipped up into a baying mob, now, it just needs the right to do the same, and it'll be just like Ukraine, all over again.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

So Trump is an Antifa agent planted by the libs to enable a new strict anti golf bill.

Trump is an anagram of Soros - if you are allowed to change the letters - wake up sheeple

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

So, here is the main group details for 16th/17th armed militia attack:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210104150859/https://www.militia.me/

Here was the pafa2021 plot for the 16th/17th January before their website was pulled. I think it's the plot Twitter refers to, when they mentions their traffic discussing another attack:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210106072816/https://pafa2021.com/how%2C-when%2C-where

It's also the plot they discussed on Parler, (links are rotting since the site was taken down, get what you can quickly):

https://www.google.com/search?q=links%3Apafa2021.com

"American Patriots organizing Nationwide on January 16, 2021. For PAFA updates please click here: www.pafa2021.com"

It contains a confession as to the crime they are about to commit:

""The estimated number of ARMED patriots needed for the PAFA2021 to move forward is approximately 15,000..."

So they planned to be ARMED.

"We will gather for 2 hours each day starting at 12:00 noon so that numbers can be assessed. If at 2:00 on Sunday 1/17 it is becomes obvious that the will to fight for America against democrat tyranny is not strong enough for the turnout to be effective, the PAFA2021 will be declared a lost cause and Joseph Biden will be allowed to be inaugurated. "

They planned to stop Biden being inaugurated if they could raise enough of an army.

"With a force of 4000 per location, we will encircle the grounds of each of the three facilities designated on this page. [Supreme Court, Capitol Building and Whitehouse]"

"The main purpose of surrounding the White House is to secure the grounds itself, along with President Trump, not allowing ANYONE in or out of the grounds unless designated permissible by the President himself on a one by one basis. "

That portion (them being his guards) requires Trump to be complicit.

"Encircling the Capitol building will ensure that no democrat politicians gain access any longer for legislation to be discussed with them. Republican representatives and senators will be allowed access to discuss legislation and continue business as usual without democrat interference. At each facility, the ONLY entrance and exit open will be the main doors in the front of the buildings. All other doors and entrances will be blocked with absolutely NO ONE going in or out through those doors. "

i.e. major crime, lots of jail time.

Whether or not they have 15000 armed militia, whether or not it failed, if you are party to this, it makes you guilty of the planned crime.

DO YOU NOTICE?

Without the Republican portion of this plot, Biden's win was already certified (on the 6th) and nothing they could do on the 17th would have any impact on the hand over of power. His inauguration was just a ceremony on the 20th, not even on the 17th.

Yet with the Republican portion of this plot, the ten day 'audit' that moves the certification back to around the 17th. Their circling of the Capitol building and only allowing in their Republican group to vote, *WOULD* permit the coup.

Republicans coup group, could do their fake claim of fraud, and reject certifying the result, and pass whatever enabling laws they planned to pass to hold power.

Notice also that this plot predates the Republican delay attempt in the Senate, here it is on the 4th January:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210104150859/https://www.militia.me/

See Ted Cruz, and his "healing and forgiveness" crap. Recognize this man is facing decades in prison is you can show his linkage to that second plot. This is true of all of the Republicans in this coup group.

Pick sides. Democracy or them.

I pick Democracy.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Yet with the Republican portion of this plot, the ten day 'audit' that moves the certification back to around the 17th. Their circling of the Capitol building and only allowing in their Republican group to vote, *WOULD* permit the coup."

You kep saying this, but how could the vote be legal? Sure, a quorum is a quorum is a quorum if some members choose not to attend or vote. But you're talking about an armed insurrection to deliberatly prevent those who may oppose from attending or voting. No matter the result of this insurreectionist vote you keep going on about, no one else is ever going to recognise it as valid.

[Michael Wojcik]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

I agree. However, that doesn't mean there aren't people who think it would work. We're talking about the folks of the intellectual caliber seen in the "sovereign citizen" movement.

Personally, I take no position on whether there was some sort of conspiratorial plan behind the 6 January invasion of the Capitol. I don't have reliable information, and both history and an appreciation of the human condition suggests that some of the invaders had some sort of plan, and others were along for the ride, and it's difficult to guess what the ratio is.

But I would not be at all surprised to learn that a significant number believed in some sort of grand and, to their minds, subtle scheme to successfully stage a coup.

What will matter in the end is, first, the Federal government's assertion of its monopoly on violence, and what form that takes, because obviously no number of wingnuts from any part of the political spectrum can contest the material power held by the government; and second, how much interest said wingnuts can sustain among their followers. It's one thing to be an armchair rebel posting inflamatory remarks to some back-alley website; it's quite another to face material resistance.

The former will be conditioned to some extent by intangible considerations such as ideology, the desire for the appearance of legitimacy, perceptions of how the political winds are blowing, etc. Let's hope it favors maintaining the rule of law.

[DavCrav]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

"Why did it fail?"

In order to be a coup you have to not only pass laws, you need to be able to hold off the Army, who won't be particularly impressed at your coup. That's why most coups are by the military, or branches of them. Because if you don't have most of the military on board they won't recognize you.

The US armed forces swear an oath of allegiance to the US Constitution, not the US President. They serve him only so long as he is himself serving the Constitution. Obviously seizing the Supreme Court is not in keeping with the Constitution, so unless you have enough people willing to go along with the coup in the military, you will definitely fail.

[First Light]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

That's for sure and there are plenty of people of good conscience in the US military. But also note, the woman who was shot and died was a 14-year Air Force veteran (and a former member of the National Guard), one of those carrying a bunch of zipties to imprison Congresspeople was also a veteran and there were clearly members of the Capitol police itself that were sympathetic to the insurgents.

[First Light]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Also, a PSYOP Special Forces Captain is being investigated for bringing a group from North Carolina to the rally. Note that Psyops are "operations to convey selected information and indicators to audiences to influence their emotions, motives, and objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals."

Of course, all those under investigation are claiming they never went inside and stayed outside. But most of them were trespassing there also.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

That just goes to show that people of all sorts join the military. Having seen (against my will, I might add – damned Twitter autoplay) the video of her getting shot, she really should have seen it coming. Don't get me wrong: it's still a tragedy and she shouldn't have been killed if at all possible, but she surely should have realised what was about to happen. She may well have been spurred-on to walk towards several unambiguously aimed firearms by a sense of invincibility from not having been killed while fighting in other countries. In any case, she unfortunately paid with her life for having been twisted by insane conspiracy theories. To be honest though, I'm more bothered by the hundreds of thousands that Trump has killed by ignoring the virus, promoting lies, and generally being an idiot.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Not an expert on US constitutional law - but if you are currently serving in the military and you start a coup that fails - don't you get a cigarette and a nice sunny wall to stand against ?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

.. but if you are currently serving in the military and you start a coup that fails - don't you get a cigarette and a nice sunny wall to stand against ?

Depends what country you're helping have a color revolution. Or if you're caught. Which means you've been a tad careless. 27A's and their like are meant to just pull the strings & provide nudges, not become the useful idiots themselves.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

(2)with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;

....

(b)A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

(b)A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

Only applies to serving personnel. And would apply equally to any of those personnel who may have participated in last years riots.

And then of course there's that boring due process stuff. Which is much the same problem with the latest impeachment attempt. That's also something that needs a trial, which could be fairly short given Trump told protestors to be peaceful, and then go home. But that's a bit of a show trial given..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55586677

The case is then passed to the Senate, where a two-thirds vote is necessary for a president's removal. If he is convicted, the Senate could also hold a vote to bar Mr Trump from holding public office again.

He would also lose the benefits granted to his predecessors under the 1958 Former Presidents Act, which include a pension, health insurance and security detail at taxpayers' expense.

Hell hath no fury like a Pelosi spurned. She couldn't hang Trump over Hunter Biden's business dealings in Ukraine, nor Bill Clinton for forgetting about the number of flights he took on Epstein's 'Lolita Express'.. But if at first you don't succeed, try some more political theatre.

Meanwhile, Uncle Joe may have suffered an embarrassing reaction to his meds.

"I think it is critically important that there be a real, serious focus on holding those folks who engaged in sedition and threatened peoples lives, defaced public property, caused great damage - that they they be held accountable," he says while putting on his coat.

Sounds reasonable. But what's he talking about? Capitol Hill in Washington DC, or Capitol Hill in Washington State?

[Michael Wojcik]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

No cigarette. The Surgeon General has determined that those things are way dangerous.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

I actually surprised more of these terrorists weren't shot. When you have armed security, body guards, secet service, whatever trying to protect the lawmakers of the USA in fast moving chaotic situation with little currect inteligence on the situation I think they showed amazing restraint in NOT shooting more of these insurrectionists. There was, to coin a phrase, a clear and present damger to their charges.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

Rather like how the original SS managed to not shoot any of the rioters at kristalnacht

[LybsterRoy]

Re: The coup explained in 5 easy steps

I have a tinfoil hat that you can borrow. Should help.

[Anonymous Coward]

Matt Gaetz

https://newsthump.com/2021/01/07/republican-congressman-matt-gaetz-blames-antifa-for-skidmark-attack-in-his-underwear/

[Pascal Monett]

Matt Gaetz

Supporting a politician is one thing, actively promoting violence and the refusal of the democratic process is another thing entirely.

I sincerely hope that every single person who is implicated in the shameful attempt at a "coup" will be apprehended and pay for their crime.

And I'm not just talking about the rioters - the politicians who endorse them are fair game in my view.

[Rich 11]

Re: Matt Gaetz

And not just the politicians. The Fox News and Breitbart 'journalists' who immediately gave out the Antifa line post-coup after repeatedly stoking the fires pre-coup should be obliged to demonstrate the truth of their more incendiary claims else face incitement charges.

[Rich 11]

Re: Matt Gaetz

Apparently the lawyers have been getting nervous and their bosses are starting to sweat too. Some of the radio networks have been getting their right-wing talk-radio hosts to read out statements declaring their recent statements as not being necessarily true (for some veteran hosts, 'recent' will go back to 1987 and the end of the Fairness Doctrine!).

Maybe there is an advantage to living in the most litigious nation on the face of the planet, even if it takes the tragedy of an attempted coup and five deaths to get anyone to consider the vitriolic drip of little lies as a contributor to cause and effect.

[Rich 11]

Re: Matt Gaetz

This addition comes months after my first comment, but I should say that I am happy to add that Matt Gaetz is now being investigated under federal suspicion of sex trafficking. It couldn't happen to a nicer, um, dumb shit.

[hoola]

Fact or Fiction

There is an interesting Andy McNab book, "Fortress" that is based on some geeks perfecting facial recognition. They are based in the US and have bucket loads of money from various sources. Various actions are then undertaken to destabilise the population so that they can then offer the technology as a solution to the "governments" problems.

The concepts are all there and increasingly we are seeing dubious organisations using the technology along with the inevitable "AI" to give it credibility.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Doesn't the US have copyright law ?

Burning down the Reichstag and blaming it on the socialists ?

Surely that's theft of someone's intellectual property

[DavCrav]

Re: Doesn't the US have copyright law ?

"Surely that's theft of someone's intellectual property"

Author's copyright lasts 70 years after the author's death. Hitler died in 1945, 70 years later is 30th April, 2015. Donald Trump starts his campaign for President on 16th June, 2015.

Coincidence? I think not.