tasks testing addition and understanding of relative numbers?
"If Bob is three years older than Alice, and Alice is 5, how old is Bob?"
"Carrrkkkk"
Raven geniuses: Four-month-old corvids have similar cognitive abilities to great apes at same age, study finds
Researchers in Germany have shown that cognitive abilities among four-month-old ravens are about equal to that of great apes at the same age. The study, published in Nature Scientific Reports, hopes to add to our understanding of how cognitive intelligence develops in different species and perhaps even help develop new forms …
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Monday 14th December 2020 15:52 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: tasks testing addition and understanding of relative numbers?
Since they (ravens, dogs and cats) can learn our commands, but we struggle to understand Carkkk, woof or meoooww, perhaps they are the more intelligent (and further demonstrate such by not appearing smart). It's a bit like the warnings about announcing ourselves to the universe - we might not like who answers our call...
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Monday 14th December 2020 20:28 GMT Palpy
Re: We struggle [with non-human language]
Well, most of the time many of us struggle with non-human language. However, those who live with dogs can pick up quite a lot of dog language. Much of it, perhaps most of it, is non-verbal. Turning the head sideways can be an invitation to be friends, for instance (it cedes dominance, or, in friendly situations, agrees to ignore dominance). It's more emphatic if accompanied by a little shake of the body and a gentle "huff" or "hurgh" coughing sound.
To their great credit, many dogs can work through human's terrible accents (our heads are mounted upright instead of horizontally, we have no fur to emphasize the body-shake, and our vocalizations are only approximately doglike). I've had strange dogs come running at me in what appears to be pure joy if I manage the "be-friends" invitation well enough. I think the dogs are happy to hear a few words in their language, for once, even if my accent is atrocious.
For that matter, it's surprising to me how often cross-species play can occur. I once saw an elephant and a dromedary doing what must have been playing: they had each come to the fence which separated their enclosures, and the elephant had wrapped his/her trunk around the dromedary's neck, while the dromedary gently lipped (and slobbered copiously) on the elephant's trunk. The elephant wasn't squeezing, and the dromedary wasn't biting. How they communicated the "let's play" or "wanna socialize" invitation, I have no idea. Probably wouldn't happen if they met in the wild (highly unlikely), but I do remember a photo of a polar bear wrestling with a Husky dog. The cool thing about that was, it happened during the time when hungry bears congregate along the shoreline, waiting for ice to form so they can hunt seals. The dog was chained. The bear could have easily killed the dog and eaten it, but instead it chose play. And the dog somehow knew it, because instead of cowering at the end of its chain it played back.
Wow, I didn't think I had that much to say. Sorry about that.
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Monday 14th December 2020 21:32 GMT Hollerithevo
Re: We struggle [with non-human language]
Thanks to many, many people being able to take photos in an instant, we have thousands of mages of animals being friends with, or simply kind to, other animals. Clearly captive animals reach out to each other for companionship and comfort in the face of incarceration.
Once we take humans out of the picture, we can see animals more clearly. Most animals do NOT want to be our friends (why would they, given what we do to them?), but they are able to socialise with other animals, even the animals they might them predate (we have all seen animals around a water hole, lions next to antelope -- there seem to be rules about sharing and not taking advantage).
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Monday 14th December 2020 23:31 GMT Danny 2
Re: We struggle [with non-human language]
@Palpy
Bored? These Americans are teaching their dogs to talk
Provided with a board full of buttons, some pets appear to be communicating with their humans – and researchers are investigating
https://www.theycantalk.org/about/our-approach-to-research
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Wednesday 16th December 2020 06:57 GMT The Aussie Paradox
Re: We struggle [with non-human language]
Cats on the other hand understand us perfectly, but just don't give a damn. If they need something, the pre-installed razor blades at the end of the each mobility device function as a perfectly adequate "re-eduction" implement when we fail to understand the basics such as "I am hungry and I can see the bottom of the bowl" or "It is 4pm, time for your slashing".
Signed,
War-Torn cat wrangler.
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Tuesday 15th December 2020 16:44 GMT Kane
Re: tasks testing addition and understanding of relative numbers?
"That's what they want you to think."
Consider Orangutans.
In all the worlds graced by their presence, it is suspected that they can talk but choose not do so in case humans put them to work, possibly in the television industry. In fact they can talk. It’s just that they talk in Orangutan. Humans are only capable of listening in Bewilderment.
― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms
GNU
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Monday 14th December 2020 12:13 GMT Elledan
Size bias
An often made assumption by people is that the size of the brain an animal has matters more than other factors. Hence the fun made of 'walnut-sized' brains in e.g. some dinosaurs. Small brain equals dumb, basically.
Research like this shows just how far off the mark that assumption is. Many years ago, the assumption was made that because the brain of human females are on average smaller than those of human males, the latter had the superior cognitive abilities. We now know that to be completely incorrect, with there being literally nothing to distinguish the brain in a male and female body based on fMRI-based and other studies.
Similarly, just because an animal doesn't lug half a kg or more in brain matter along doesn't mean that they are dumb. With how little we know about how the brain works, it is very likely that the way the brain is interconnected determines its efficiency and thus resulting capabilities.
A humpback whale's brain case has a volume of about 8,000 cubic centimeter, whereas humans have to do with a measly 1,300 cm^3. Meanwhile dolphins have a much larger neocortex than humans, meaning that theoretically they could be a whole lot smarter than us: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/are-whales-smarter-than-we-are/
Maybe Douglas Adams was closer to the truth than anyone of us had ever guessed. Or maybe we'll all be obliterated for that intergalactic expressway and none of this matters in a few seconds :)
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Monday 14th December 2020 14:04 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: Size isn't everything
Brains are fascinating. As are ravens. Brain size I guess is one of those interesting evolutionary things, ie if we don't need all of ours, why haven't we evolved smaller heads given the energy needed to keep our brains happy. Or perhaps it's just too much like hard work to re-adjust our skulls to keep stereo sound and vision.
But there's neat stuff like MEG scanners that can show how we're using our brains, but.. somewhat tricky to use on other animals. Perhaps researchers will figure out ways to apply SQUIDs to whales.
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Monday 14th December 2020 16:49 GMT Ivan Headache
Re: Size bias
Ive wondered about bird brains for a while now.
We have a couple of peanut feeders outside our kitchen window. I spend quite a bit (probaby far too long - I should be doing a jigsaw puzzle) watching the antics of the Blue Tits, Great Tits, Robins and Sparrows that frequent them.
First. How did they locate the feeder in the first place and how did they know it was a source of food?
Second. There is a third feeder attached to the kitchen window. This contains Flutter Butter (other peanut butter based feeds are available) How did they work out that this thing attached to a sheet of glass also contained food. (they love it by the way and can empty a pod in almost the same time tha the squirrel can empty the nut feeder.)
Interestingly the Tits tend to queue to use it. The Robin won't come to it if there is a Tit feeding. If it's free then it will come and sit on it and hog it for a while.
The Sparrows won't come anywhere near it - perhaps they're chicken.
There's anorher feeder for Finches. We haven't seen a finch all year - but not one of the other birds will touch it.
What has intrigued me most is the birds' reaction time. That and their communication.
Example, two House Sparrows sitting on the fence about 20cm apart. With no obviously link between them they took flight as one and flew away as a pair in the same direction side by side.
A slo-mo film might have detected a difference in their launches, but I couldn't see it.
The Tits (both varieties) are very acrobatic when feeding. It's always intrigued me that they land on the feeder (a vertical stainess steel tube with holes spaced for they to get at the nuts) without making mistakes. Their feet are always in the right place to get the peanuts nearest to top of the tube. If the squirrell has been lunching and the nuts are now only at the bottom, they instantly switch to an upside down position. Again, lightning fast. The Robin on the other hand took two or three weeks before he could land on the feeder like the Tits do.
I watched a Sparrow today trying to imitate a Humming Bird, trying to get a peanut while in hover mode. He could only manage about 3 seconds before giving up. He did manage to get his beak in the feeder but couldn't maintaing the hover long it enough to pull a nut out out.
There are other occasional visitors with their own quirks and tricks but I think I have rambled on long enough now.
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Monday 14th December 2020 20:10 GMT Juillen 1
Re: Size bias
The tits are more hanging feeder birds (they go for seed/nuts/berries as primary feed, which can be found on trees and bushes). They're right at home pecking away on something to cling on to.
Robins are primary insectivores, loving earthworms, so like Blackbirds, they forage on the ground a lot. Apparently Blackbirds shouldn't use hanging feeders, but I had a Blackbird a few years back that worked it out and spent ages teaching his mate to do it too..
Birds have smaller neurons that mammals do; they're absolute marvels of evolution.. There's no wasted space with them. Everything is optimised.. So in the same brain mass, they get far higher neuron count.. Which makes them fantastically bright for the volume of brain matter they have.
Short distances between neurons (more densely packed) and shorter distances to travel mean Birds are very responsive (thus the lightning fast reactions you see; the large part of the bird you see is feathers. The actual bird is far smaller).
They locate the feeders by fantastic eyesight (birds have huge eyes, relative to skull), which they use to look for things that seem like food. Feeders are generally known to be sources of food now (and nuts/seed are easily visible through mesh). And birds have calls for 'food', along with being able to see other birds feed..
The pecking order is easy. Tits will feed in bunches, and they do have mobbing calls (this is where a flock will gang up to attack an invader), so multiple tits are a threat to a Robin, which is a solitary bird.
Far better for a Robin to let the Tits feed, then pick up the bits afterwards, especially if the food source is sizable.
Great tits especially can really be a challenge (if they get very hungry, they'll attack and kill mice).
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Monday 14th December 2020 23:27 GMT Ivan Headache
Re: Size bias
Thanks for that. I was thinking along similar lines for much of it but didn't want to get out of my depth.
An additional about the Robin.
I say Robin, but we have three of them in our garden fairly regularly so it could any one of them.
When we first put up the peanut feeder he sat on the fence or the holly bush which is adjacent and watched the Tits having a feast. He tried and failed to copy them, not managing to grasp the Stainless steel tube (this on isn't a mesh). However, it only took him a day or so to realise that the Tits kept dropping bits as they did their look out for predators head flick. then he world turn up and hop around under the feeder and pick up all the bits that got dropped. If he turned up and the Tits weren't in attendance he would would have a go at emulating their routine. It took him a while but now he can do it first time. He doesn't do the upside down stuff though.
He loves the Flutter Butter and will go for that in preference. This morning he was sitting on top of the window feeder just staring back at me.
Interestingly, there is one Great Tit that will go after a bit if he drops it. He's incredibly fast and generally retrieves his bit before the Robin has had chance to spot it.
The Pigeons have tried to get into the feeder but gave up after several days of trying and now ignore it.
There are a couple of Jays in the neighbourhood. We rarely see them together at the feeder as they are a bit on the big side, but occasionally they will both come. One will feed while the other sits on the ground below. Then they swap places until they decide to leave. Similarly the Parakeets.
I tend to see them flying but every now and again one will come to the feeder. I remember one morning there was a pair of them. one at the feeder (upside down as there wasn't much left in it) and the other sitting patiently in the top of the support with its head cocked to one side watching.
Just like the Jays they took it in turns.
Right that jigsaw isn't going to finish itself.
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Monday 14th December 2020 12:16 GMT NuffSed?
Please don't let QAnon see this.
Who else misread the headline to see Covid not Corvid. Deliberate methinks!
There was I thinking COVID19 had now become sort of cognisant superbug for a couple of seconds (yes seconds - long enough to put my reading glasses on and take another look).
It's Monday FFS! Save the wind-up until after I sort the mess left by the weekend morons (try about 1700h Friday, should be clear by then).
PMSL... a few people here don't actually know what "Corvid" means. They are actually believe we have a "superbug",
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Monday 14th December 2020 13:30 GMT Neil Barnes
a viral Youtube clip of a crow apparently skiing down a roof
I'm quite prepared to believe that that crow was having fun.
I've spent far too long waiting for the wind to be at the right speed and direction (it's called parawaiting) watching corvids. They will soar the tiniest of ridges, and turn somersaults and play other games in the wind. Those birds are having fun.
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Monday 14th December 2020 20:18 GMT Juillen 1
Re: a viral Youtube clip of a crow apparently skiing down a roof
Yes, there's been research into that.. And the dopamine responses are what you'd expect from a human having fun.
Interestingly, this happens when birds sing too, so all those quotes about the birds only calling "get sex here" seem to be missing the point. The birds actually enjoy the singing, and would sing for its own sake; they just have an investment in getting the song right too, to make it the most favoured by the females (the one that put the most work and practice into the song is the one that breeds, so birds seem to appreciate a mate that puts the work in, probably as that's the best bet there'll be a mate that would put the effort into supporting them as they raise young).
Corvids especially are known to "play" for pleasure. Smaller birds, it's still unknown if they do things "just for fun".
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Tuesday 15th December 2020 11:31 GMT Graham Dawson
Re: a viral Youtube clip of a crow apparently skiing down a roof
I don't know if they do things for fun, but I've seen a finch getting fed up with its demanding, fledgling young. It was wandering around the garden, looking for bits of speed sprayed out by the other finches on the feeder, and being followed by a wide-mouthed young bird, who could obviously fly and feed itself, but insisted on being fed anyway. She (I'm assuming she because it looked drab) was ignoring it most of the time, but every so often, when the smaller bird hopped up and opened its mouth, you could see the older one just sort of stop for a second and lower its head a little, then fluffle its wings and carry on.
Turns out even birds have NEETs.
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Monday 14th December 2020 15:56 GMT Willy Ekerslike
Spatial Memory
I wonder if the less developed spatial memory is a consequence of their different optical system - we and the great apes have binocular vision whereas ravens (and most birds) do not. Not so much a function of eye placement; rather a function of the different processing needed. Just a thought!
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Monday 14th December 2020 16:03 GMT Wyrdness
Bears too
It's apparently proved tricky to design bear-proof food lockers for campers to use in Yosemite National Park. The locker mechanisms needed to be simple enough for a human to open, but too complicated for a bear to manipulate. This presented a bit of a design challenge because, according a Park Ranger, "There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."
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Monday 14th December 2020 22:51 GMT KBeee
Re: Not surprised
In walnut growing areas of Japan, the crows love walnuts but the shells are too hard for them. So they've learned to drop the nuts onto the road to let the traffic crack them open. They've also learned to do this at traffic lights so they can safely eat while the lights are red.
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Monday 14th December 2020 17:49 GMT DarkwavePunk
Corvids
Back pre-plague I was in the beer garden (if it's worthy of that name) at my local pub looking out into the park. Mass of pigeons around some breadcrumbs that had been left. Crow turns up in the middle of the whole squabbling lot. Pigeons panic like mad and wing it. Crow just looks around and fucks off without even eating any of the food.
Evil shits - and I approve.
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Monday 14th December 2020 23:25 GMT Danny 2
An unkindness of ravens
I posted here a month ago that I'd started experimenting using LEDs of differing colours to chase away magpies. They were eating the nuts I left out for squirrels, and the squirrels weren't scared away by LEDs. I want to apologise for that moment of lockdown madness. I realised the squirrels weren't concerned with the avian competition, they happily co-exist with the magpies.
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Monday 14th December 2020 23:34 GMT Ivan Headache
Re: An unkindness of ravens
Yes but how do I stop the Squirrel(s) from cleaning out my bird feeder.
I don't buy the peanuts for him.
My current stainless tube feeder is the first one he's not managed to destroy. All the wire mesh ones - even those made with stainless wire are easy for the squirrel to unravel and break,
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Tuesday 15th December 2020 19:28 GMT Danny 2
Re: An unkindness of ravens
@Ivan Headache
"Yes but how do I stop the Squirrel(s) from cleaning out my bird feeder."
Spray the nuts with a strong pepper solution. Birds can't sense capsaicin, all mammals (except Italians) are repelled by it.
https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/squirrels-and-bird-feeders
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Thursday 17th December 2020 17:23 GMT Majikthise
Re: An unkindness of ravens
+1
We tried the pepper. Utter failure.
I'm convinced the squirrels got a taste for it, they seemed to invite their family round for Spicy Seed Curry.
We eventually got a Squirrel Buster, which really has defeated the squirrels. I'd recommend them (unless you have parakeets, in which case all bets are off).
But, to get back on topic, a pair of magpies are now working out how to defeat it.
It's fascinating to watch; they're getting better every time... you have to respect them.
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
