I'm here for the (heated) comments.
I'm here for the (heated) comments.
Five, four, three, two ...
The UK Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) has provided advice to the government that it can use anonymised mobile phone data in the fight against coronavirus. Deputy commissioner Steve Wood took to the interwebs on Saturday to state: "Generalised location data trend analysis is helping to tackle the coronavirus crisis. …
“Well the Australian government isn't doing that. What I want to be clear about is the policies and measures that we will put in place for Australia will be right for Australia. They will understand how Australia works and how Australia thinks and what our rules are and what our society understands and accepts. Our values. That is what we will do in Australia. We're not going to go and cut paste measures from other places, which have completely different societies.”
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The old fool could have mentioned Australia a bit more.
Surprised given his other comments on his government's response to CoViD19 he didn't mention the word 'pray' once.
Various churches have been encouraging their congregations to attend services - even still using shared ceremonial spoons etc. Some have sought exemption designation as "essential services" to avoid closure. As many in their congregations are elderly it seems a sure-fire way for them to meet their (alleged) maker very soon.
A friend encountered a devout evangelical Christian neighbour in the street yesterday - and before she could react was enveloped in a big hug.
“Well the Australian government isn't doing that. What I want to be clear about is the policies and measures that we will put in place for Australia will be right for Australia.<...> "
Funny that! The Oz Government's never had an original idea before. For many decades just about every law on the Australian Statutes comes from either the UK or US or some silly mashup of the two.
So I wonder what that 's all about—probably a hiccough in the Concepts Regurgitation Department and wrong words spilled forth.
Of course, when this crisis is over Oz will return to normal and continue to do what it's always done best: (a) blindly follow everyone else's ideas so long as they're only from elsewhere in the Anglophone world, (b) act as the world's quarry for minerals and gas which it sells off to all comers at cheaper prices than the local Australian inhabitants can buy them for, and (c) be a large goldfish bowl for bemused tourists who are always eager to gawk at its curious inmates.
The UK and US could do Oz inhabitants a favour by charging Australia with breaching copyright of their laws!
P.S.: Two notable concepts unknown in the land of Oz: 'Local manufacturing' and 'Self sufficiency'.
It's true a lot does.
Although a lot doesn't either.
E.g. Penalty rates and miniumum wage set by a government regulator rather than parliament is more Swiss or Scandinavian where no minimum wages existed but strong collective bargaining regulations and laws exist.
UK / USA style university tuition fees massive vote loser for Tony.
Plus high level supports for multiculturalism and immigration.
So how are those countries getting the data? Google location services can be turned off, as well as location usage in search results. I heard Switzerland is using cell phone operators, which have a rough location from the cell mast users are connected to, and that cannot be prevented (though not as precise). Some countries force people to install an app, which I guess can technically be fooled by a GPS spoofer.
Ah well. There's always ankle monitors like for prisoners on supervised release...
no, you can't turn it off! if they know your mobile phone number or the tracker id on the handset....not only can they monitor your movements they can also turn camera and microphone on remotedly and listen in.....they can also use these flying little robots to assassinate you from the sky and anybody who happens to be standing within a few hundred metres of you at the time.....why don't people know this already? it's not 'new' news, 20 years old already......
"not only can they monitor your movements"
Nope. They can track the location of your phone.
Of cause, some people seem to be glued to their mobile phone, but some of us are quite capable of putting it down, forgetting about it then wondering where the darn thing is.
Normally it's in the last place I'll look. Then again, when I find the darn thing, I stop looking. Unless I'm being extra awkward...
"Normally it's in the last place I'll look."
"Normally it's in the last first place I'll look"
Your brain doesn't see it because it doesn't expect the search to be that easy. After exhausting all other possibilities you eventually come back and check the first place again - so I suppose technically that does become the "last" place you look.
As you rightly surmise, the operators can provide this information quite readily for phones that are switched on (cue rants from peeps saying you can pry my location from my cold dead hands, I'm only using the clacks for my personal communications now!).
As you move around the network, your phone is constantly telling the network where it is in terms of radio measurements of the cells around it. Each time your phone receives a notification, that's a data session that requires it to fully connect to the network to receive the data that indicates this. Having radio measurements of several cells will give you a pretty good idea of where the mobile is. Add a sprinkling of clever maths and the accuracy improves a fair amount.
This can be done for every phone in moderately near real time (*)
(*) - subject to server farm capacity relative to number of subscribers in the network and a bunch of other parameters too complicated to enumerate here, even if they were fully understood, and different vendors of such solutions offer different capabilities/accuracy
> So how are those countries getting the data?
Yes, it's purely coincidental (wink) that Governments seem to have a tool already developed that can identify groups of people gathering.
Presumably this is intended only for use against true subversives such as young people wanting to hold an illegal rave and is in no way whatsoever going to be used because they think there might be any sort of civil uprising. After all, people are so pleased with the way politicians run the country in normal times that they would never feel the need to object in any way, other than voting for a completely different party at the next election which might be years away but will result in the influx of a brand-new set of competent politicians who will make all of the changes desired and in no way will continue the status quo... [continues p.94]
>> So how are those countries getting the data?
>...Governments seem to have a tool already developed...
Nope - the operators do, though, and use it to help optimise the network. An optimised network = fewer miffed customers = better retention rate = more money. There is no sinister, lizard-driven purpose.
"Google location services can be turned off, as well as location usage in search results."
Doesn't matter, at least not yet. It looks like they are looking for movements of people in general, not tracking individuals. The majority won't turn off location data, some won't even know how to, so the majority will still be seen as they move around.
Your phone registers with more than one cell site - usually three or more. And they can triangulate your phone based on the strength of the signal from each base station to the handset. And you don't need to make a call either. Just needs to be turned on and registered with GSM. It's called Multilateration. The cellular networks only would share the information if they had an official request from law enforcement, but I get the feeling they will just be passing these feeds on wholesale to the intelligence community for full assessment. This will be hard to wind back from the intelligence community once the government have this information, which is why the Australians are so loathe to do it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
Yes, in the UK, it is 14 days.
The counter resets to 7 days if you show symptoms, even if you're already on day 13.
They published a handy chart for those who can't be bothered to read:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874011/Stay_at_home_guidance_diagram.pdf
Cambridge University virologist actually said that the virus stops being excreted after a few days, it's your own immune response that then tries to kill you.
Prejudiced in favour of my old technical college, but they do have a bit of expertise in those things.
Sort of, a recent BBC infographic can be summarised as:
1. Symptoms: isolate for 7 days.
2. Live with someone who has symptoms? Isolate for 14 days.
2a. If isolating 14 days and develop symptoms reset your clock to 7 days isolation from onset.
2b. Other people in the household do not need to reset their 14 days unless they develop symptoms (go to 2a).
2a+2b would seem to leave a gap for 2nd round of infection, but there you go.
@AC - "They published a handy chart for those who can't be bothered to read:"
Thanks for the chart... but do the rules make sense?
So, the first assumption appears to be that a person only remains infectious for 7 days after they show symptoms... is that true?
Even if that is true, a person can go out again 14 days after the first person in their household shows symptoms. Using the example of Household 2, person D might isolate from the rest of the household, but then contact and become infected from person C on day 19, after they are allowed out. They might not show symptoms for another 13 days, spreading the infection further.
Am I missing something, or is this based on, "well, that's only going to happen in a small percentage of households" wishful thinking?
Heh - that sound's like a Stross Novel!
I presume that the folk that have been stuck in a house with virus-ridden loved ones for at least 7 days are presumed to have a superior immune response that means that they are presumed immune and can therefore go out.
I'm guessing here that if they then carry on as if nothing happened, and if they are nevertheless carrying the virus, then because they aren't suffering, they aren't launching droplets of it here there and everywhere and are therefore unlikely to become a seed for a new outbreak within their 7 days that they should be isolation.
Just a guess though - it kind of makes sense.
It's pretty contagious, but you're not guaranteed to have picked it up, especially as the person with symptoms is meant to be staying clear of everyone else and taking extra precautions.
In context, that average number of others people are expected to infect if they were to behave as normal, is about 3. I've seen higher and lower estimates, but we don't really know. 3 is quite high, I think regular flu is lower. Yet, that's only three people of the many you'd normally interact with if we weren't taking extra precautions. Don't misunderstand; it's still high, and 3 to the power of n gets big quickly, which is why we're all working from home and doing everything we can to decrease that number, because even small changes are big down the line, but it does mean that you are not guaranteed to have caught it in the first round.
The assumption is that either you will succumb to SARS-CoV-2 within 7 days of the first person becoming ill or you won't, in which case you have developed a resistance to it and can no longer be a carrier.
Remember the person who becomes ill will have been spreading SARS-CoV-2 for several days around your house before they became ill, so an assumption is that at the point the first person becomes ill all other members of the household will already be carrying active SARS-CoV-2, just not displaying CoViD19 symptoms.
You should add that "in which case you have developed a resistance to it and can no longer be a carrier" is another assumption. There is no study to prove that, two cases that seem to disprove that, and a history of other diseases like 'flus that evolve so quickly that one vaccination is no guarantee.
Never assume or you make an ass of you, me, the PM, the Health Minister, the Scottish Minister, and the idiotic adviser to the PM who drove the 'herd immunity' strategy.
It is the thin edge of the wedge. The austrailian PM has a point.
The ICO did not specify any technical detail on how the data could be processed.
The Taiwan model is interesting and works as follows
You have to have bluetooth on - dont have it on - the phone reports you to the authorities and you could be fined if you move masts.
The bluetooth samles those phones you have come into contact with and logs them in an encrypted id. and The encryption is tied to your phone.
If you get infected, you inform the app - the list of contacts and the key are sent to the state - and the other phones are identified.
Everyone you got in contact with is then tested.
If you infected and you go out - you get fined.
If you go out without your phone - you get fined.
If your phone runs out of charge - you get fined.
obviously, if you tamper with the app or logs - you get fined
Allegedly - no GPS data captured.
That sort of system might not be so bad. However - it is not done like that in other ocuntries - where GPS data can be captured...
Imagine a 'National response app' - mandated to all carriers?
The ICO has not specified the means of processing - they could technically capture everyones location data going forward. Data Protection is more about managing mission creep than anything else.
If the government gave two hoots about privacy that would work in reverse:
Your phone records timestamps of contacts anonymous IDs, and keeps this internal.
If you get sick your device's identifiers (possibly changing by the day) get published to the list of infected phones along with a date range for when you are expected to be/have been infectious.
Other peoples phones can then see for themselves IF they came near the published list and when that was.
No need for anyone else to have a dossier on your movements and everyone you saw.
I'm interested in just how accurate any of these measures are. For example, A lot of houses (in the UK at least) have the living area separated from the street by two courses of brick and an air-gap, often pierced by a window and a door. Someone who is legitimately indoors following the self-isolation rules could wrongly be placed several metres outside the house. Alternatively, people walking on the pavement outside could be classed as contacts despite never actually having anything to do with the self-isolating individual.
"I'm interested in just how accurate any of these measures are. For example, A lot of houses (in the UK at least) have the living area separated from the street by two courses of brick and an air-gap, often pierced by a window and a door. Someone who is legitimately indoors following the self-isolation rules could wrongly be placed several metres outside the house. Alternatively, people walking on the pavement outside could be classed as contacts despite never actually having anything to do with the self-isolating individual."
You are missing the point. Twice.
1: This is being implemented using anonymised data, therefore it isn't for tracking individuals. (Clearly, without anonimisation it could be, but this isn't the stated use.)
2: This isn't anything to do with people just stepping outside, it is to track significant movements. It is to get a picture of how much general movement there is, and where it is taking place. (Again, without anonimisation, it could be used to track individuals, but that isn't the stated use case, and in any case, not whether anyone is one side of a wall or the other!)
For example, this data can be used to see if tens of thousands of people are driving 20 miles to exercise, or whether just a few hundred are. One may require further restrictions of movement, but the other probably not.
There are obvious concerns about how this data could be [mis]used, but mistaking someone walking past your home for you isn't one of them.
List of famous drug dealers:
British American Tobacco ... legal
Hershey....legal
Kenco....legal
GlaxoSmithKline....legal
Coca-Cola....legal
William Grant & Sons....legal
Street corner cannabis dealers....illegal
"Worse" as regards drug dealers is a bit relative.
Luddites on the other hand actually smashed machinery, which wasn't terribly constructive.
> one of them is a feature phone so no installing an app on that.
I wonder what could be done within the confines of the Java computer that sits inside the SIM card...
AFAIK, the SIM can query the phone for information (subject to the support of the chipset to process the requests, and I've no idea about what that might be like in a feature phone), and the SIM can SMS it up to a server. Not too much of a stretch to have the SIM request RF measurements and send them up. SIM app can be pushed by the operator, no chance for you to override either as you won't have the keys to the SIM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_Application_Toolkit
In these times many would support the use of draconian laws and methods so long as they had sunset clauses and even better if they where overseen by judges and a jury.
The moment we do not need them, the date for revocation (months not years) should be set and the laws revoked.
Once that can of worms is opened it'll be hard to close. It's strictly for public health reasons now but once the public has gotten a taste of the government "tracking" your phone, and decided "Well, that really wasn't so bad.", there'll be two then three then a dozen reasons why "Just for the good of the public, generally speaking." the government tracks phones for more and more reasons. And the anonymized data will slowly go by the wayside, too. They'll know exactly, precisely who you are and who everyone in your contacts is. The government, especially here in the U.S., has proven many, many times over that they cannot be trusted.
I have many old SIM cards in old Android phones, no accounts, just Wi-Fi connections but they still connect to the mobile network and permit emergency calls so they are on the map for the corporate trackers and Google, each phone has a unique Google account so I guess it looks like I'm having a party.
"This time for old-style dumb phones with no geo-location hardware. See the flip-phone beloved by Gibbs in NCIS"
As other posters have pointed out, a mobile 'phone's location can be triangulated from nearby cell masts. That's what allows a cellular network to connect to your 'phone. No need for GPS, no need for Wi-Fi location. No need for Bluetooth location. Just the mere fact it is a cellular 'phone and is switched on.
>As other posters have pointed out, a mobile 'phone's location can be triangulated from nearby cell masts.
Yes and all they can track is the phone number of a bought-for-cash PAYG sim
With a smart phone they (goverment/online ad agency) can tie that phone to your facebook profile, everyone you have ever received and email from and every website you ever visited.
It's worse than that, it's full of xenophobic sentiment and "They WILL learn Australian values" jingoism (remember that this is the same country that responded to speeding tickets being overturned in court by evidence from a CSIRO scientist showing how badly the radar units had been setup by banning government scientists from giving evidence AND declaring that radar is infallible)
My Australian relatives locked down early, so did a lot of people - but Bondi Beach and others show that Oz is as full of twats as the USA and UK when it comes to contagions. Things are likely to get quite bad.
Time to Bring Out The Boot! (and apply it to the PM)
"[...] Oz is as full of twats as the USA and UK when it comes to contagions."
The Darwin effect may come into play - except it is the vulnerable who are at highest risk.
I phoned my local pharmacy who were happy to add me to their "vulnerable" prescription delivery list.
Next day the doorbell rang - and a Yodel bike courier said "prescription for you" while trying to hand the package to me at zero spacing. Fortunately I had stepped back to a safe distance as the door opened. He seemed puzzled when I said to drop it on the door mat.
"The Darwin effect may come into play - except it is the vulnerable who are at highest risk."
We're starting to see a few "young and healthy" get killed.
I suspect wakeup alarms might now be ringing, but there's still a large element of "only happens to other people" mentality going on. (the same mindset as "rules are for other people")
Giving our glorious and enlightened authorities the benefit of the doubt for the moment, mobile operators already collect many metrics on cell hand-offs and transit times etc. Sharing just this data, on volumes of movement, could help with a view as to how well the - effectively - voluntary lockdown is operating and how it is changing over time-of-day and day-of-week and could also act as an alert if the behaviour starts drifting as the population starts getting bored and complacent and then if further measure, especially in certain geographies, are required.
You did remember to put the clocks forward at the weekend didn't you?
Most of my house/garden clocks are MSF radio synchronised. As I went to bed late - it was interesting to see them adjust in the minutes following 1am.
If they ever change Daylight Saving - I expect the non-MSF central heating timer will still abide by whatever hardwired algorithm was programmed when it was made. So we would still have to adjust some clocks.
No. I did it about mid-morning of the Sunday because despite reminding myself the previouds evening, for the first time in about 40 years, I forgot. Luckily, most things in the house auto-update nowadays. Just my alarm clock, living room clock and central heating. The car still needs to be done.
"Several nations – among them Israel, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong"
Who were already doing this for less public health orientated reasons....
Well maybe when the ned's start getting fined and banged up people will mass facebook and tweet about the loss of their civil liberties</sarcasm>, cmon people feed the machine your privacy; its hungry and wants to know all about special you....
The country where I’m living mentioned recently that a local university built a mass monitoring tool for road/people tracking for helping the multitudes visiting expo2015.
They’ve simply switched it back on again, (according to national radio news) as lockdown can Improve the Rnought transmission ratio, bring it below 2.5.
The mass interception of persons private data continues, whether people are special or not. It’s nice to see it being used for something vaguely philanthropic.
Actually there's any number of ways to effectively track a phone.
I recently discovered a method using the faint acoustic signals from the switching power supply
inside, even to the extent that it can track battery use.
The detector can just be a simple piezo sounder originally intended for distance measurement but a modified tweeter from a TV can also be used.
I manaded to pick up the weak signal from the base clock and this is a very effective method: even turning the phone off didn't silence it.