back to article We checked in with the new Windows 10X build, and let's just say getting this ready for late 2020 will be a challenge

The new Windows 10X build, 19578, has been pushed to Microsoft's emulator with many updates – including a beta of a new File Manager and the ability to run on released (as opposed to Insider) builds of Windows 10, provided you have at least version 10.0.17763.0 (October 2018 update). Windows 10X is an upcoming OS designed for …

  1. Hans 1
    Joke

    When's the last time Windows was ready ?

    February 17, 2000

  2. DJV Silver badge

    "You click an icon and there is no result"

    In some cases, that might be judged an improvement!

  3. martinusher Silver badge

    Please, no more.....

    I've just suffered another Win10 update. I have no idea why they've done this or what its supposed to achieve. I'd like to say to them something along the lines of "Leave My ****** computer alone!" but they don't listen -- idle hands, especially programmer hands, are definiitely the Devil's Work. I use Linux for a lot of work so its tempting to just get rid of Windows entirely; unfortuantely the corporate world is just so wedded to it that it can't disengage.

    The mere fact that Microsoft cant disengage the UI from the fabric of the OS means they're architecture's screwed. Why don't they just give up? They can't be making money from the thing and their agility means they continually introduce more bugs than they fix.

    1. ma1010
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Please, no more.....

      ...and their agility means they continually introduce more bugs than they fix.

      Oh, so agility! That's what you call what MS has and which explains the Win X or Win 10 or Win X10 or 10X or whatever they're calling their shitshow this week. Thank God we're still using 7 at work; just hope they don't change it before I retire. So sad to see what's become of MS.

      Paris because she's almost as confused as MS seems to be these days.

      1. Snake Silver badge

        Re: Please, no more.....

        Why is it that I'm in charge of, or using myself, seven different Windows 10 machines and don't have any of the significant issues that people love posting on the internet about??

        Maybe, squeaky wheel syndrome?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Please, no more.....

          This forum is full of IT grey beards who fear change. New ideas scare them, particularly continuous deployment.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Please, no more.....

            Or maybe the "grey beards" remember how to do things correctly?

            Learn from history, or be doomed to repeat its mistakes.

          2. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: Please, no more.....

            no. "change" is not FEARED. "Change for the Worse" aka what MS has done with Win-10-nic is LOATHED, DESPISED, REVILED, and SPIT UPON! (and REBELLED against!)

            "Change" does not mean "Better". "Change" does not mean it is a GOOD thing. "Change" can be a very BAD thing, and when FORCED upon us, is GUARANTEED to be VERY VERY BAD. Because, if it were GOOD, we would GLADLY embrace it. But when it is *UNWANTED* and even *FORCED*, it is like SLAVERY, or being CONQUERED, or having a bypass put in place of your house like with Arthur Dent...

            1. GrumpenKraut
              Linux

              Re: Please, no more.....

              Up-voted for fine screaming capitals.

              Added down-vote bait here ------------>

            2. hplasm
              Holmes

              Re: Please, no more.....

              Change is what you have left after forking good money after bad, towards Microsoft.

          3. SundogUK Silver badge

            Re: Please, no more.....

            In twenty years I have never met anyone working in IT who 'fears' change. I am seeing a lot of new entrants who go 'Ooh! Shiny!' whenever something new comes along, regardless of whether it completely wrecks our businesses work processes.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Thumb Up

              Re: Please, no more.....

              SundogUK

              If I could up vote that 100 times, I would.

            2. Snake Silver badge

              Re: Please, no more.....

              "In twenty years I have never met anyone working in IT who 'fears' change."

              Oh please. Are you going to actually tell me that (almost) every man and his mother isn't wining about Windows 10's Tiles???

              Instead of just DELETING the fscking things if you don't like them, Tiles are the bane of computing and the worse thing ever invented. Add in the touch-friendly version of the Control Panel. And just about every other UI change in Win10.

              YES, people here FEAR CHANGE. If that's too much for you to accept, then have those people stop fearing change. Is Windows 10 perfect? No!! But every change will get polished - I'm sorry, but was Windows 7 instantly loved and relatively bug-free in experience? No, again.

              Windows 10 is faster. The updates *could* be used to exclusively improve the experience but right now Microsoft seems to still be experimenting with what Windows 10 will finally become, what it will include, and therefore they are doing dramatic updates rather than just patches. Eh, things happen. I'm running a WINDOWS 95 app, 13 years old, in an updated Windows 10 machine! After the far more difficult migration of getting the app from Windows 95 to Windows 7, with lock files, changed file paths, etc, migrating from Windows 7 to 10...didn't break a single thing. Still running the app. Still running Adobe CS6, even the Acrobat Distiller. Still running an industrial webcam attached to a USB-to-Ethernet bridge! Via TWAIN!!!

              Everything Just Works. The only thing that didn't? Microsoft Live Mail, LOL. So I changed to Thunderbird. End of problems. Even Windows Fax, on a legacy PCI modem, Just Works.

              1. Oliver Reed

                Re: Please, no more.....

                "Are you going to actually tell me that (almost) every man and his mother isn't WHINING about Windows 10's Tiles???"

                Sorry - couldn't let that go.

                Ollie

                Grammatical Liaison Officer

                1. Updraft102

                  Re: Please, no more.....

                  Maybe "Wining" was a reference to how Windows 10 is so bad that many people have been driven off of the Microsoft Windows platform and are running their Windows programs on Linux using Wine.

                  1. Snake Silver badge

                    Re: Please, no more.....

                    Using Linux with WINE.

                    Good joke, thanks for the laugh. HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Windows users - oh, yeah, the entire financial industry! - will just switch over to Linux RIGHT NOW to use WINE, so that they can run their programs!!

                    Dumb, meet Stupid.

                    No, the world is NOT switching: Linux desktop statistics are just as pitiful as they were before Win10 rolled out.

                    Did I say "pitiful"? Maybe "irrelevant" might be more apropos here.

                    Nice try though, thinking that you can make people believe in the two-decade fantasy that Linux on the Desktop is near. Yeah. Right.

                    This board is "irrelevant" when it comes to the rest of the world's desktop OS decisions, the users simply don't seem to care about this board's Linux fetish. They get *work* done, not sit for days on end tinkering with a Linux OS after they spend many days deciding what distro they'll (finally) settle on.

                    It is always amazing to read how much time people have spent on their personal Linux boxes, tweaking out things to their liking, while they tell others to [instantly] abandon Windows because...they don't like the icons? Maybe this week it'll be that they, finally, decided that they can't stand the touch-friendly version of the Control Panel any more. Or maybe it could be the wallpaper...

                    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
                      Linux

                      Re: Please, no more.....

                      There are only THREE reasons why Linux desktops aren't generally replacing windows.

                      1. Software compatibility - WINE isn't quite ready for prime time.

                      2. the willingness for major commercial software houses to product Linux versions. Some do [like CAD software, databases], but most STILL do not.

                      3. Micro-shaft's past (evil) marketing practices, in which they strong-armed computer makers into pre-loading windows onto ALL of the computers they make. Yeah, a decade or so of THAT and even when they can't do it any MORE, they still benefit from having done it...

                      To reverse this, you have to do better than what IBM tried with OS/2. You have to put a LOT of money up against Micro-shaft's marketing engine.

                      Microshaft (in effect) sells CRAPPY ice to Eskimos, having convinced everyone that their ice is somehow better than the free stuff, when the OPPOSITE is actually true... (the power of 'marketing')

                  2. gingeds

                    Re: Please, no more.....

                    How many have? Honest answers now please? Because we know Linux penetration is around 2-3%

              2. bombastic bob Silver badge
                FAIL

                Re: Please, no more.....

                Are you going to actually tell me that (almost) every man and his mother isn't wining about Windows 10's Tiles???

                *NOT* 'whining'. Ranting. Lamenting. Venting. Complaining in the hopes that OTHERS will know, agree, and force it to go away. But Certainly Not 'Whining'.

                Do you live in a society where going against what "big brother" wants to do TO you is somehow 'whining' ? Just curious... Because if you cannot get your grievances addressed somehow, the NEXT move is to "move on" (unless, by some quirk of fate or evil overlord take-over move, it's a MONOPOLY now and your at "the master's whims"). The whole BAD THING about Win-10-nic is centered on the FORCING of "CHANGE" upon the rest of us, becuase a small number of bureaucratially-minded Micro-shaft "engineers": *FEEL*...

                And voicing our STRONG opposition to such "change" is _NOT_ 'whining'!!! (no matter how much you *FEEL* otherwise - and 'feel' to me is the 'F' word, and nearly always pejorative when I use it).

          4. Piro Silver badge

            Re: Please, no more.....

            No, it's full of people who don't have the patience to suffer with software that's slower and less functional than that they used to have.

            That's completely reasonable.

          5. gingeds

            Re: Please, no more.....

            Also note the Al la 2010: "I use Linux and am tempted to leave Windows". Rebel. There are over a billion Win10 deployments if Linux were a viable alternative it would not be greater than the estimated 2.8%

            I've also been testing this deployment on an emulator and guess what? It's an emulator. Sync it up to visual studio check the logs, most errors I've seen are down to that.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Please, no more.....

        Agility = "So Agile it's FRAgile!"

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Gimp

      Re: Please, no more.....

      You're SUPPOSED to say (while bending over and grabbing your ankles): "Thank you SIR. May I have another???"

  4. JDX Gold badge

    I don't really get why a dual-screen device needs a special OS, when Windows supports multiple screens and has done for a long time. I get there is a special 'dead zone' in this device but surely that could be supported in regular W10 rather than require a special OS.

    Anyone more expert on this able to explain?

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      The major reason seems to be connection between the two screens. Current Windows often treat multiple displays somewhat independently and let the user handle things, whereas apps might want to make their experience easier to run on both screens without necessarily using the weird hacks that would now require, especially when handling touch input on both screens. Why that requires a separate version of Windows rather than changes to Windows, however, isn't very clear.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Just let previous app see it as a dual monitor device, while specifically coded app can understand how to use it? It looks another Windows 8 moment - MS is trying to fit everything into a single use case, even when it can't work at all, firing into its own feet.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm looking forward to Windows 10X

    I'm sure we'll see some much better bugs and security holes.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: I'm looking forward to Windows 10X

      better bugs and security holes - because we can't just fix the existing bugs and security holes, we must make NEW ones, BETTER than before!!!

      Yep, snark meter is pegged all the way to the right at the moment. I think the needle bent a bit, too. (it's what I get for having an old-school analog snark-meter)

    2. hplasm
      Happy

      Re: I'm looking forward to Windows 10X

      The bugs and security holes will increase, 10X

  6. doublelayer Silver badge

    As I read

    First, I heard about the desktop being unavailable in the container and I thought "Users won't notice if the desktop icons live outside the container as long as something looks like a desktop. Even if they don't have that now, it wouldn't take long to add. No problem."

    Then I heard about Word not running correctly in Win32 and I thought "The users will install the latest Word release which they're undoubtedly working on, which will be some UWP-based thing designed for the two screens. We can't test it now, but there's no doubt in my mind that they have people working on it. As long as the icon's the same, users won't notice. No problem."

    Then, I read this: "In the new File Explorer, local files are not accessible at all."

    It's going to crash and burn. Really fast. Nice try, guys. Hiding people's files only works when they never use multiple applications on them. It's sometimes functional on phones, but it's not going to work so well on anything bigger than that.

    1. Warm Braw

      Re: As I read

      It's interesting that Apple have managed two fundamental changes of architecture (68000 to PowerPC and then to x86) and managed to keep old applications working, at least for a time, more or less as their users expected. This (at least until an ARM version arrives) is merely the addition of a screen.

      Admittedly, there was probably not the same wide range of applications in common use, but the key thing was probably that Apple limited their ambition and mostly did not offer ways for the old applications to use new features.

      I don't really see a problem if old Win32 applications are confined to a single screen as long as they continue to run until suitably-revised versions come out that are platform native. Apple did manage to have enough sufficiently-improved applications that you could market the new devices on the basis of those, with backwards compatibility being an added bonus. It sounds to me like Microsoft are tacitly admitting that they don't actually have any compelling applications specifically for the Neo: in those circumstances you'd imagine they'd go the extra mile to ensure that existing applications worked predictably without expecting their developers to change them.

  7. bombastic bob Silver badge
    Megaphone

    will introduce a ton of changes that [snip] risk alienating traditional Windows users

    WHAT! THE! *FEEL*! COULD! THEY! POSSIBLY! BE! "NOT-THINKING"! (*FEEL*ing) ???

    This reminds me of a really BAD joke...

    A truck driver gets to a truck stop, and ends his day of driving at the bar next door. He says "I'm Big Moe and I want to get SCREWED!" (ok didn't say 'SCREWED' but you get the idea). So the bartender slips him an address and he goes there. He knocks loudly on the door, "I'm Big Moe and I want to get SCREWED!" An angry male voice yells "slide $100 under the door". Big Moe does it. 5 minutes later he's POUNDING on the door. "What in the HELL do you want?" the male voice says. "I'm BIG MOE, AND I WANT TO GET SCREWED!" The angry male voice answers back "What, AGAIN???"

    Only THIS time, it's Microsoft, Windows, and the latest Win-10-nic release FILLED with FEATURE CREEP. "What, AGAIN???"

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    dual screen

    Looking at the screenshot it makes more sense to display the text full screen on one pane and the controls on the other.

    1. DJV Silver badge

      Re: dual screen

      Yeah, but this is Microsoft - so don't expect logic to come into it!

  9. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Not worth the bother

    This made me smile.

    The risk is that when Windows 10X does appear, many applications will not work right, users will try it out and decide it is not worth the effort.

    Now where did we see that happening before...

    {don't all answer at once}

    Yes, you got it, Windows Mobile

    MS still trying to foist touch screen goodies onto us even though 99.9999% of us don't have anything more than a traditional desktop or non touch enabled laptop.

    How will the Seattle Covid-19 lockdown hit their schedules? Perhaps 'holiday 2021' might be more appropriate?

    1. John Miles

      Re: anything more than a traditional desktop or non touch enabled laptop

      Currently using a two in one laptop with touch screen but using a Bluetooth mouse in preference to either the touch screen or touch pad, though the touch screen can be useful when ****** Windows decides Bluetooth device is unknown/not working and I need to reboot it again (another stupid decision by MS making proper shut down so difficult as sometimes you need a cold boot for it to forget it is broken).

      1. gypsythief

        Re: MS making proper shut down so difficult

        Eh? Not that difficult:

        Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

        [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Power]

        "HiberbootEnabled"=dword:00000000

        You're welcome!

        1. John Miles

          Re: MS making proper shut down so difficult

          shutdown /s is easier - and something you can explain to an non IT person.

          But that still leaves us with MS Windows Team, in an effort to pretend Windows boots faster, mislabelled the action which leads to lots of confusion when full shutdown is required.

  10. Adelio

    UWP

    When even Microsoft seem incapable of writting proper UWP applications why would anyone use it.

    Win32 apps just work, call me a luddite.

    The last thing I want to use is a Microsoft Store (or UWP apps)

    I do not use a tablet, I do not have touch screens, I do have dual screens. Tell me Microsoft, what percentage of PC's HAVE a touch screen and of those how many people actually use the "touch" stuff.

    1. Updraft102

      Re: UWP

      I do not use a tablet, I do not have touch screens, I do have dual screens. Tell me Microsoft, what percentage of PC's HAVE a touch screen and of those how many people actually use the "touch" stuff.

      You've hit the point exactly. Only a very small percentage of PCs have a touch screen... they don't need it, and most are sold without touchscreens, even now in this "let's make everything like smartphones" era. Some individuals or organizations may have fallen victim to the "touch is the future" thing and bought PCs with touch (desktops or laptops), and in that case, I would bet that very few of them that are used as regular workhorse PCs see those touchscreens being used much, if at all. It's just not workable to use touch for more than a few minutes on a non-handheld device.

      Touchscreens are only really feasible on handheld devices and in limited special purpose machine (kiosks and such). On a standard desktop, touchscreens are an ergonomic nightmare. Try using one on a laptop or desktop for any length of time and see how long it takes for your arm, outstretched in front of you, to begin to feel as if it is made of lead. Then imagine using the computer that way all day, 5 days a week. How long would it be before an injury prevents you from continuing?

      MS seems to have bought into the idea that everything has to look and act like a smartphone cuz smartphones iz kool. Now that Windows mobile has failed, the only reason to keep pushing the idiotic touch UI of part of Windows 10 is to suggest it has a place on the kinds of devices that Windows is actually used on, and it really doesn't, other than convertible 2-in-1 devices (and even they don't need both UIs at the same time).

      Without touchscreens, there's no reason for Windows 10 to look like it does, and if it didn't look as it does, which is to say "like a phone," it would be even easier to think of it in the same terms that people thought of older Windows versions, so Windows as a Service would look even more stupid and counterproductive. Of course, people who know about computing already know this, but MS investors and many in the tech press don't. If this came to pass, Microsoft would be uncomfortably close to admitting that, quite literally, everything they've done with Windows during the Nadella era has been wrong.

      "

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: UWP

      "Win32 apps just work"

      and do NOT ridiculously LIMIT what you can do with YOUR application!

  11. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    "Microsoft cannot afford a re-run of Windows 8"

    Oh yes it can. It has largely enough money for that, and apparently it can repeatedly screw up its OS, its Office 365 and even its Azure - none of that makes people stop and wonder why they put up with the continuous stream of BS and productivity-halting shenanigans.

    Oh well, at least Win 10X will provide a brand new reason to guffaw at how MS screws things up.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Microsoft cannot afford a re-run of Windows 8"

      Looking at the 'new' icons, it seems more like a re-run of Windows 3.1.

      Awful, MS need to keep their interns away from the interface.

      1. Zippy´s Sausage Factory

        Re: "Microsoft cannot afford a re-run of Windows 8"

        To be fair, Windows 3.1 probably still works better than a lot of its later incarnations.

        I mean, someone had .Net apps running under Win32s the other day, so it sounds like it might be time for a redux reboot...

    2. Updraft102

      Re: "Microsoft cannot afford a re-run of Windows 8"

      Ah, I remember the halcyon days when I thought Windows 8 was the worst possible Windows that MS could ever make. After Windows 10 arrived, I looked back at 8 (by now 8.1) and wondered why I'd disliked it so much. I ended up upgrading to 8.1 before I left the Windows plantation. With modification, 8.1 can be a really decent OS. Windows 10... not so much.

  12. DrXym

    Sounds terrible

    The ONLY reason to use Windows on a tablet or touch device is because it runs Windows software. If it can't do that, or comes with an entire mountain of caveats & gotchas then what the hell is the point?

    We've seen this time and again with Microsoft - they crap out something which can't run certain kinds of software, and/or is locked to their store, and/or suffers from terrible performance thanks to emulation and the result is always awful.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Sounds terrible

      "the result is always awful"

      you are being KIND with that description...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yet another Microsoft omnishambles...

    I remain unsurprised.

  14. bernmeister

    A flurry of responses.

    Does seeing the full file system require "hackery" or simply finding the right option? Finding the right option can sometimes be a hurdle on a new OS.

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