Why not locate the master switches overhead, so any liquids fall away from them instead of running inside them?
Fed-up air safety bods ban A350 pilots from enjoying cockpit coffees
The mighty EU Aviation Safety Agency has issued a formal safety directive banning A350 airliner pilots from putting cups of coffee anywhere near sensitive cockpit electronics. It appears that airline pilots simply can't help themselves when it comes to getting their caffeine fixes. The EU Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has …
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Thursday 6th February 2020 18:55 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Not whisky and porrige, but cranachan - where (all praise to the mighty Scots!) they prove they can make anything more unhealthy. They took meusli, and made it much, much more delicious - but also much less healthy, and also a lot less breakfasty. Oats, toasted with honey, with raspberries, whisky and cream. Yum!
I'm told deep frying Mars bars also makes them more delicious, and even less healthy than they started. And post-pub deep fried haggis pakoras for breakfast is a thing in my sister-in-law's highland family.
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Friday 7th February 2020 11:26 GMT I ain't Spartacus
I got upgraded to business on a flight from London to Barcelona once. It's such a nice feeling to be handed a breakfast with eggs and bacon at 9am and say, "Yes, I'll have a glass of champagne please."
Worst I ever saw was a Christmas breakfast my company sponsored for public health engineers in London. 6am we get to the pub in Smithfields. Get in to set up, guy who's organising has his first Guinness. As I was working I had half a glass of bubbles with orange juice with the brekkie, to show willing. Which I regretted when standing on the roof of a 20 storey hotel in a howling gale an hour later...
But the organiser polished off 5 Guinnesses, as well as his bubbles, by 9am! At least he wasn't working that day. I saw several people drink several, then go to work - I always wondered how much design work happened that morning, that was badly compromised by engineers under the influence...
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Friday 7th February 2020 16:41 GMT paulf
Despite their many reported faults, especially in this parish regarding data security, British Airways are pretty good at dishing out the free drink on board in the front cabin. After a lot of flying for work the other half got us both bumped up to Business for our recent holiday. AYCE bacon baps, hash browns and wine at 0600 in the LHR T5 lounge. Then more breakfast on board washed down with several mini bottles of Champagne. The cabin crew kept bringing more just in case - it would have been rude to decline :)
This all made it quite risky negotiating the green channel at Oslo Lufthavn in case our blood was taken into account for the duty free booze limit!
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Thursday 6th February 2020 14:36 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Gobsmacked!
Aviation safety is a combination of equipment and human factors. There's a lot to be said for allowing pilots to use a relatively benign stimulant when they need it. Them falling asleep or being dozy could also lead to dangerous issues. They're supposed to sleep well bedfore a flight obviously but personal worries could keep them up and their irregular schedules don't help. People are flawed by nature.
And also: Spills can happen even when rules are followed. It's better to prevent damage if it happens.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 16:09 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Gobsmacked!
> True, but making them get up and walk around to get it, then drink it "away from the office", is probably also useful in terms of keeping them alert.
IMHO, a 'no liquids in the cockpit' rule is a mistake because it means pilots leaving and entering the cockpit much more frequently, which means that hijackers/terrorists have more opportunity to storm the cockpit. Especially as they now know that when the pilot comes back the first officer will likely be emerging soon after and they can be ready to jump him.
Spill-proof cups and instructing the stewardess to secure the lid before taking it in would be a better first measure and then, only if pilots prove themselves incapable of using a spill-proof cup, should we consider banning liquids in the cockpit.
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Friday 7th February 2020 00:31 GMT eldakka
Re: Gobsmacked!
it means pilots leaving and entering the cockpit much more frequently, which means that hijackers/terrorists have more opportunity to storm the cockpit.
To receive their cups of coffee in the cockpit requires cabin-crew to prepare the coffee in the kitchen, then open the door to the cockpit to serve the coffee. Therefore I can't see how requiring the cockpit crew to leave through the same door that has to be opened to serve the coffee through anyway and drink their coffee in kitchen/crew rest area would lead to much of an increased risk cockpit-invasion as opposed to the recent incidents experienced by cockpit crew spilling drinks on the control panels.-
Friday 7th February 2020 01:05 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: Gobsmacked!
One crew bring two cups of coffee as opposed to bot pilot and co-pilot leaving individually to each get a coffe means twice as many door operations. I assume you don't expect both pilots to leave together!
Having said that, I suspect the incidence og hijacks/cockpit invasions is unlikely to increase based on that.
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Friday 7th February 2020 21:23 GMT Mi Tasol
Re: Gobsmacked!
Like Boeing, Airbus has a history of pretending that problems do not exist and then taking action at a snails pace. The inadequate pitot heaters that dropped the Air France A340 in the Atlantic were well known as was the same problem on earlier models right back to the A300. A modification to fix the problem had been designed but was low priority. In the case of the A300s many operators were told no-one else has this problem for a number of years until someone asked at an operators conference where the Regulators were present and many had the same problem. Regulator action followed within days and a fix very soon after.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 16:34 GMT baud
Re: Gobsmacked!
From last time the subject of spills in Airbus cockpits was discussed, apparently the electronics should be splash proof. But apparently sometime the seals are removed by maintenance crews.
https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/all/2019/09/13/condor_a330_coffee_radio/#c_3870103
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Thursday 6th February 2020 17:10 GMT bazza
Re: Gobsmacked!
Airbus, please, just waterproof the critical (that's all of the cockpit ones) electronics consoles to the not too obscure IP67 standard (IEC60529)
Nice as that would be, the problem then is the repeated testing one would have to do each and every single time the consoles were opened for repairs or maintenance of whatever is inside. And it’d have to be tested for IP67 compliance periodically anyway. and that sounds kinda tricky to do reliably in situ in an aircraft.
Without that kind of regimen it is likely that it would be treated as if the consoles were waterproof, whilst some misfitted panel or torn membrane meant it wasn’t. That could be very, very much worse...
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Sunday 9th February 2020 22:01 GMT Kiwi
Re: Gobsmacked!
Nice as that would be, the problem then is the repeated testing one would have to do each and every single time the consoles were opened for repairs or maintenance of whatever is inside.
As someone who had some involvement in model boats (at a "snotty-nosed ultra-annoying spectator-only but still always-near-and-interrupting kid" level), it's trivial to seal up individual modules in their own sealed box, thus when the console is opened the only devices that would need testing are those opened.
As someone who used to work on ancient colour TVs, it's trivial to make various modules that can be absolutely sealed and unplugged as needed, for servicing/refurbishing/testing back at base. So if a certain unit becomes faulty, unplug it, toss it in the "to be fuxed1 bin", pull one out of the "works fine" bag and plug it in.
Honda was able to make reliable connectors in the 70s and earlier that survive on trail bikes in all they go through (heat, water, dust, vibration, fuel/oil spills, bladder spills...), as was Suzuki etc etc etc... Maybe not so much Lucas but any one else could. I'm sure the airline industries can make reliable connectors that plug in with little effort and effectively clean and seal themselves.
These problems are solved already. Have been for decades. And with the "5+ 9s" and multi-million-uses-before-failure that we expect from cheap consumer devices, I'm pretty sure any manufacturer with a reasonable reputation can churn out a billion switches that'll get used millions of times a second and still outlive the aircraft designer's great-great-great-great-grandkids. Hell, I still use the clock radio I brought with half a week's paper-run money when I was a teen, although I expect if I tried to play a tape in it I'd find at least one of the belts has perished.
1 Contraction of "Can be fixed" and "It's probably f.....", but the determination was to be made back at base.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 18:02 GMT Mark 85
Re: Gobsmacked!
Airbus, please, just waterproof the critical (that's all of the cockpit ones) electronics consoles to the not too obscure IP67 standard (IEC60529)
They might be able to just place a plastic cover over the panel such as used to wrap sandwiches? Or just insist that the pilots use sippy cups like the ones for little children.
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Friday 7th February 2020 08:06 GMT Intractable Potsherd
Re: Gobsmacked!
The simplest solution is some form of spill-proof cup. Given the position of the switches, it isn't just the pilots who are at risk of catastrophic spillage - a fumbled delivery by the flight attendant could have the same effect. Sealed vessels are therefore the easiest and cheapest option. There are loads of them on the market, though pressure-relief might require a bit more thought.
There is also the marketing opportunity - "buy our aviation-grade cups, as used by our pilots!!"
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Thursday 6th February 2020 20:23 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Put coffee in non-spill containers
A few flights I've been on were full-male flight crew, so that tradition has been broken in at least one way.
Service was impeccable, because the flight crew was professional, just like always.
In the end, they could crew the plane with Cthulhu's henchbeings, as long as we get from A-to-B without fuss and I get snax and a G&T.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 12:51 GMT Andy Non
Only obvious now?
It is blindingly obvious that you should not have drinks in the proximity of sensitive electronic equipment. That was one of the first things I was taught both during physics "A" level forty years ago and also when I started working with expensive computers many years ago.
Spill coffee on your PC keyboard today and you can simply replace it for a couple of quid, but spilling coffee on a cockpit control panel is just asking for trouble of the death-making variety.
"No drinks in proximity to the control panel" - This should be included in the first flying lesson before a pilot takes the controls.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 14:49 GMT werdsmith
Re: Only obvious now?
If you are going on a long flight then take a flask along. A lot of people do, and a thing called a Little John or a Lady J.
The average cheap rental that is used for dual instruction though, design from the 50s not much damage could be done by liquid. Gets a bit more interesting in a Cirrus though.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 17:46 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Only obvious now?
Regarding Cirrus: when the SF50 was being designed, lots of thought went into making a luxury feel for the interior. Part of that involved illuminated cup holders. They had some difficulty in finding a good source that looked right and fit the cockpit (many were too deep to fit the available room).
There was one candidate cupholder that had perfect specs. Supposedly it was rejected because it wouldn't hold a large Mountain Dew bottle. That requirement didn't make sense until you realize:
* Mountain Dew bottle is yellow-green.
* the large bottle has an opening of about 2" diameter.
* flights can last up to ~4hr
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Friday 7th February 2020 13:45 GMT Zarno
Re: Only obvious now?
Not too far off, but intake vs outflow.
From what I can tell, it was in part to limit consumption flow rate. Just like removing the 3L from circulation.
Because nobody would ever buy a second 2L bottle and just drink an extra liter total per day.
Paris, because she's seen it all.
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Friday 7th February 2020 01:12 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: Only obvious now?
"Only problem, the first lessons are in a single engine small plane. Not much chance of getting a coffee there... ;)"
You saying that small cheap planes don't have cup holders for when passing a drive through Starbucks where they discourage drivers (pilots) from drinking and driving or throwing used cups from their vehicles?
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Thursday 6th February 2020 13:00 GMT imanidiot
Easier said than done
Pilots need to dribk something, this ban effectively means the pilot flying can't have a drink unless someone else takes over PiF duty. This can be rather problematic, especially when the third man on long flights is on his rest break and in a crew bunk at the back of the plane.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 15:48 GMT A K Stiles
Re: Easier said than done
To my understanding, when a pilot needs a break they can leave their co-pilot in charge, and switch out with a senior member of cabin crew who is there to ensure the remaining pilot is awake and functional. So you could readily have the coffee break around the same time, or use a no-spill mug as has been suggested repeatedly elsewhere in this section.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 13:09 GMT batfink
The problem is obvious from the picture
Looking closely at the picture, it's clear that there are no cupholders. So, clearly the pilots need to balance their cups on some handy piece of the control panel when they need their hands free for grabbing the controls/stewardesses/etc.
So, all Airbus need to do to remediate the problem is to install some cupholders. I'll bet that in Boeing cockpits, being made in America, there are about 20 of them.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 13:15 GMT gazthejourno
Re: Re: The problem is obvious from the picture
You jest but that was genuinely the problem with the unscheduled A330 coffee-electronics interface event. The cockpit had US cup holders fitted but the puny Euro disposable coffee cups were too small to fit. Cue captain trying to put his cuppa on his tray table and whoops...
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Thursday 6th February 2020 15:51 GMT A K Stiles
Re: The problem is obvious from the picture
Tray tables seem almost designed to dump the tea/coffee in your lap, from cattle seat experience. fortunately it was breakfast and we were heading into a warm climate so the emergency change shorts in the carry-on were a suitable change of clothing.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 14:02 GMT GlenP
Re: The problem is obvious from the picture
I'll bet that in Boeing cockpits, being made in America, there are about 20 of them.
I believe the highest cupholder to seat ratio was achieved in the Dodge Caravan, 20 cupholders for 7 seats! To be fair this was partly due to the number of ways the seats could be configured.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 15:15 GMT Slx
It's fairly sloppy practice to drink coffee over control surfaces and complicated systems, but in an environment like a cockpit, I would also expect those surfaces, particularly for anything fundamental to be able to survive a scenario like a coffee spill. We're not talking about a production studio where a spill might screw up someone's morning recording session, or a server that takes down the office network, these are life and death systems and should be fully IP rated for the kinds of hazards they're faced with.
Are we really getting to the stage that an aircraft could be crashed by a a cup of coffee or a bottle of water sloshed over the controls ?!!?
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Thursday 6th February 2020 15:41 GMT My other car WAS an IAV Stryker
In my line of work...
1) If it goes in the engine compartment, it must be sealed against all manner of dust/exhaust and fluids (e.g.: fuel, coolant, oil, water) and still capable of higher temperatures and shock than crew-area items.
2) If the vehicle is amphibious, just about every electronic box must be sealed against water (assume salty seawater) and corrosion-resistant to salt spray/fog.
3) Everything else* needs to be less weight and lower cost, so HA! -- good luck not spilling anything! (I don't care how robust those boxes look; I don't trust anything to be properly sealed. Too many points of potential failure and too many assembly steps.)
* The cabling is designed to be pretty well sealed, usually. Except for any terminal lugs that just get a loose shock-prevention cap that doesn't pretend to seal anything.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 15:49 GMT Malcolm Weir
If you pop over to Airbus' virtual cockpit viewer at https://ccntservice.airbus.com/apps/cockpits/a350/ you can see part of the problem: there _are_ no good cup holders. But wait, there's more: there' are pull-out keyboards (as shown in this from an A380: https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/image/content/dam/products-and-solutions/interior/A380_Airbus_cockpit.JPG?wid=1920&fit=fit,1&qlt=85,0) So pull out the keyboard, put your coffee on the nice sturdy bit furthest from the side-stick controller, and ... oops!
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Thursday 6th February 2020 16:22 GMT LeahroyNake
How hard is it
It is not that difficult to make office machinery spill proof. I have seen modern copiers covered in coffee, random liquids and even an air con failure that dropped all its liquid over a £10k Machine. They were all working fine, No damage and after a quick clean or a few days unplugged to dry out no further issues. Coffee stinks after a few days of festering but that's not my problem.
You would think making a center console at least splash proof would take mimimum effort. Almost as easy as providing spill proof cups as previously mentioned.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 19:13 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: How hard is it
Not in the airline industry, where everything has to be expensively certified and continually tested - and where everything also requires regular scheduled maintenance. There are no simple answers here. Everything you do has safety implications. Make rules too onerous, and pilots will cheat - because the cockpit is their office every single day. Anything waterproof has still got to be waterproof after the third maintenance check and the twentieth of the maybe hundred in its lifetime.
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Friday 7th February 2020 05:03 GMT Kiwi
Re: How hard is it
You would think making a center console at least splash proof would take mimimum effort. Almost as easy as providing spill proof cups as previously mentioned.
4 of my motorbikes have used the same aux switch. It has been with me for over 200,000 miles, many of them in rain weather. The switch is neither waterproof nor sealed (and was only intended to be temporary till I could find something better but in near 20 years I haven't needed that!).
Back around '12 or '13 I worked on an "Excel" branded laptop. Was the only one I ever saw, had some interesting tricks for hiding case screws, was very near impossible to find any documentation on (some in German IIRC, perhaps another European language other than French or English). The thing had an isolated keyboard well that, should it take a spill, would not allow coffee into the rest of the machine. On the top of this was a waterproof socket the keyboard plugged into. Dunno if the keyboard was easily washed, but in the event of a spill it meant none of the rest of the unit got a drink.
According to the owners it was NOT an expensive unit (though still the only one I've ever seen!).
I do get that aircraft have a higher test regieme, but waterproof switches aren't exactly expensive these days and reliable switches aren't exactly rare. If a cheap one can survive 20 years of the vibration and soaking and dust and me futzing with things and the odd electrical issue I'm sure there's something around suitable for an aircraft.
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Thursday 6th February 2020 17:26 GMT Jean Le PHARMACIEN
If this was a car
I cannot believe how many times journos have criticised cars for lack of cupholders. Personally, any chance of usually hot liquid in a car on road could spell serious injury to occupants/loss of control. I.e. no cupholders for front seat car occupants in my view
Aircraft: ditto plus 100-300 people at risk. If you need a drink (and let's not forget how predictable turbulence is) not at the controls. Cockpit seats are not wetrooms
Sounds harsh, but car and truck drivers should not be drinking at the controls and there's lots of sensitive electronics in modern cars/trucks
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Friday 7th February 2020 05:17 GMT Kiwi
Re: If this was a car
Sounds harsh, but car and truck drivers should not be drinking at the controls and there's lots of sensitive electronics in modern cars/trucks
Given the increasing use of touch screens for controls in cars, I'm quite sure we don't have much to worry about with people drinking.
I've only had one car with cup holders (or rather a bottle holder - not for alcohol). Previously I'd keep the bottle in my lap, capped except when I had a clear moment to take a swig. Much safer than trying to find somewhere to stop, pull off, sip, pull back into traffic... And the more I drink the more likely I am to need a "rest stop" after a couple of hours, rather than driving the range of the tank :)
(I personally would argue strongly for the cup holders to be fitter ABOVE the touch-screen stuff in cars...)
Cockpit seats are not wetrooms
Well... There was this one flight I was on that has some excitement during landing. If the passenger compartment was anything to go by...
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Sunday 9th February 2020 22:20 GMT Kiwi
Re: If this was a car
The ideal interface for a car is one that you can interact with without opening your eyes.
These exist. They're commonly called a "spouse".
Unfortunately, they often get quite upset if you won't open your eyes while interacting with them, but it can be safely done (so long as you do all the cooking)
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Thursday 6th February 2020 20:35 GMT Anonymous Coward
cant stop moaning about the cubicle.
Was told the story many years ago that ICL made those computers which blended the keyboard into the desk with all the computer gubbins underneath. Probably to save 50p on a cable.
One spilt coffee on the keyboard and it all went kaput.
Bit like ICL who had been watching too much doctor who.
Im not suprised all the drunk pilots try to sober up by downing coffee at the work cubicle.
They should probably make the plane openplan like everyone else has had to suffer since the cubicle glory days.
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Saturday 8th February 2020 08:36 GMT MachDiamond
"Does this mean no more shtupping of the cabin crew in the cockpit?"
You have to be a yoga master to "make your own entertainment" in a modern airliner cockpit. The space is as cramped at cattle class in some.
Now if you want to tie up a lav for a few minutes, Deviant Ollam has a good presentation on doing the wild thing in many different models of aircraft. He even has tips on how to block the lock with Legos so staff can't bypass it to poke their head in to order you back to your seats. Not that they bother. Better the lav than trying to use one or two of those thin blankets to try and get away with a little naughty in the main cabin.
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Friday 7th February 2020 01:27 GMT G R Goslin
What is it with all this drinking?
I'm a bit surprised that anyone gets to drink on the job. Many years ago when I served a an engineering apprenticeship, you'd get a five minute tea break in the morning when the tea trolley came round, and nothing in the afternoon. I don't recall anyone drinking in the meantime. There were drinking fountains in the shop, but seldom used, and no-one ever spilt a drinking fountain. If you can go through eight hours of kip without getting up for a drink, I'm sure the same would apply in the day. It's not exactly a manual labour environment, so you're not replacing the sweat of toil.
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Friday 7th February 2020 04:33 GMT W.S.Gosset
"the right-hand pilot in the picture above"
properly termed: First Officer, Jet rated
a/ second+subordinate pilot sits on the right, and is virtually always a "First Officer" (can be a slumming captain, but still subordinate for flight duration)
b/ cuff braid indicates this chap's rank + jet rating:
1 ring -- First Officer, Prop
2 rings -- First Officer, Jets
3 rings -- Captain, Prop
4 rings -- Captain, Jets
Source: dad ran this gamut and in that order, ending up check captain on 2 (iirc) types of jet
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Saturday 8th February 2020 00:49 GMT dfsmith
Re: NASA
Let's work this out:
Shuttle launch $440M for 7 people -> $63M per ticket.
But...
Distance traveled (SS Discovery) 148Mmiles (39 flights) -> 3.8Mmiles per ticket.
Giving $17/mile.
Cattle class flight is about $400 LHR->SFO (5300miles) -> $0.08/mile.
So NASA is about 200 times more expensive per passenger mile*. They can probably get a higher class of waterproofing for the mark-up.
* I'm counting the flight crew as passengers as well.
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Friday 7th February 2020 09:03 GMT AdrianMontagu
Wasn't there a film some 50 years ago where the plane crashed and it was finally deduced that it was a coffee spill that caused the accident?
Have we learned nothing?
What about if the air systems fail and we end up with condensation water dripping around the electronics?
There are various solutions to these problems.
Banning coffee in the cockpit should not be one of them.
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Friday 7th February 2020 11:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
Simple solution.
Fly upside down while drinking coffee. If you do a barrel roll (NOT an aileron roll!) you can also avoid needing to turn the cup 180 and trying to drink with your upper lip.
Mines the one with my manuscript to "1001 Smart Ideas" in the pocket. I'm yet to find a publisher...
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Friday 7th February 2020 15:16 GMT AK565
Have to admit, this is prob the most entertaining article I've read here.
Banning coffee? I assume some time next week there'll be a follow-up about how a decaffeinated flight crew increases passenger safety.
Seriously, the comic material is endless. I wouldn't be surprised if this wound up being a Key & Peele (sp?) skit.
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Friday 7th February 2020 15:36 GMT sketharaman
I first read about this risk in the book entitled LOW PRESSURE by Sandra Brown. One of the engines shuts down. Root Cause Analysis nails copilot, who spilled coffee on the instrument panel, then technician who disabled another instrument while wiping it clean, and a series of snafus. Takeaway was, for an aircraft to crash, many things have to go wrong at the same time.
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Friday 7th February 2020 17:10 GMT Celeste Reinard
Preventive Punishment*
First of all, this is what happens when them flyboys with their funny sigarettes use the cupholder as an ashtray - and don't have them their ouisky from a biberon.
Secondly, first you shoot their wife (or kids, pet frog, whatever makes them happy), and tell them that that is what is going to happen when they spill their coffee on the boss's gear. With as added bonus that it is very good for l'esprit de corps, and prevents any pissing contest / stops them pissing off their colleague's in the first place.
Thirdly, what was wrong with Flying Lizards? They just fly, and don't drink. Like cacti.
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* A.J. Ayer, The Central Questions of Philosophy, p. 237, 1973, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, London
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Monday 10th February 2020 14:41 GMT Richard Altmann
three things:
I never learnt about an airplanecrash caused by spilled coffee in the cockpit.
Why did it take EU Aviation Safety Agencys X- Decades to warn about this hazard?
Airbus produces DoomsDay Helicopters and has not come up with coffee spill proof cockpits?
No Aviator, but seriously: is there no coffeecupholder in a jetliner cockpit?
BS!!
Biting the hand that feeds IT
