Mainstream auto makers stuff in more self-driving tech: 8% of new Euro cars have Level 2 smarts Tesla's Autopilot might get all the attention, but semi-autonomous cars are starting to gain market share across Europe as mainstream brands get involved and prices fall, according to Canalys. Level 2 autonomous cars, which can control both speed and steering but still require the driver's full attention, made up 8 per cent of …
Okay, I will admit that I can accept Level 1 as being Cruise Control. I do think that we have that down pat and reliable and working.
As far as I'm concerned, Level 2 should content itself with lane control. Stay in the same lane, slow down if there is a holdup in front, and that's it.
Controlling steering is way beyond Level 2. I'm sure we can find a number of things to be sure of before that.
Steering is level 2, you can see the definitions here. That said as it's level 2 you have to be ready to jump in at any time, so if any car manufacturer says that a car has level 2 steering it's probably best to wait for the level 3 version.
Not naming any names *cough* Tesla *cough*.
I suggest manufacturers discard steering from level 2 and concentrate instead on body armour and as-the-crow-flies navigation that merely heads to the destination point in a straight line regardless of any obstacles that may present themselves along the way.
Would that resolve sir's concerns? ;)
Took delivery of a new BMW 320d a few weeks ago and knew bugger all about the death trap lane control which was switched on by default that has a nasty habit of snatching control of your steering down a country lane. Too many fiddly switches and stuff to distract you from the actual business of driving, the other half has a 12 year old focus which I must say is far simpler to drive and find things, nice big circular heating controls in the centre console for starters.
All I have to say is 737max and MCAS
We have a Berlingo, 2019 model. The lane control - which seems to work using a single camera behind the mirror - does exactly what you say. It gets twitchy at the slightest excuse and seems to want to steer you into the path of oncoming vehicles half the time, particularly if the road suddenly narrows. And as for driving through motorway roadworks where they've re-painted the lanes (recently on the M50), it's like driving on a rutted road.
At least it has a button on the dash to turn it off. The speed sign recognition which uses the same camera and which I've mentioned here recently can only be turned off by navigating three levels deep in the menus. Rumour has it that legislation will soon mandate these systems are tied to the speed limiter. The Berlingo can tie to the limiter, but doesn't by default. Good thing too as it is constantly getting the limit utterly, utterly wrong.
M.
My 2.5 year old Kia has lane control that has never been enabled - having spent my entire career in engineering I don't blindly trust automation. Living in Cornwall on a country lane means I want to retain complete control of the vehicle.
I have been involved in a lot of automation projects in very controlled conditions (mainly automated test equipment). Automating a vehicle to the point it can take control away from you is just silly, in my view.
The only piece of automation in the vehicle I find really useful is when I manually engage the downhill assist mode by braking while on a descent; being an automatic it is quite nice when the system does automatic downshifts to enable engine braking (there are ascent / descent grades of up to 20% in this part of the country even on major roads - think A30)
Amusingly, the system that uses the forward looking camera (mainly used for identifying speed limit signs) along with figuring out how many lanes are present gets totally confused at a national speed limit sign on a single track lane (yes it is legal, although not very smart, to do 60 along those lanes).
As for cruise control - How many roads in the UK would let someone engage it for more than a couple of minutes? (I like cruise control when I can take advantage of it such as when I moved from Florida to Pennsylvania some years ago).
A lot of this stuff comes under the heading of 'I know you can but why?
> (yes it is legal, although not very smart, to do 60 along those lanes).
It was pointed out to me, many years ago, that the speed limit is not the only law that limits your speed. Charges such as dangerous driving, and the parts of the Highway Code to do with stopping distance apply too. It is very likely to be illegal to do 60 on said lanes. Just not a breach of the speed limit regulations.
Sadly there seems to be an increasing trend around here to treat the speed limit as an indicator of road quality, and assume all parts of a given road are traverseable at its speed limit...
Icon because it’s the only road sign on offer =======>
Up until the last three or four BBC series, probably. After that - meh. They were a bit too up themselves (or at least, Clarkson was) and I wasn't as disappointed as I expected when Clarkson was pushed, though I didn't expect the other two to follow him to Amazon.
Frankly, although they never seem quite to have got the mix right, one or two of the more recent presenters have been rather good <ducks and runs for cover>
M.
"Best (almost) real world car show."
If you have Freesat or can watch BBC iPlayer (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fky8c/episodes/guide) you might want to try Air an Rathad (On the Way), the Gaelic (with English subtitles) car programme on BBC Alba. Very low budget, unpretentious, all real world, handmade television. Prefer that over the glitzy programmes (yes, I know I'm a grumpy git :).
Level two is a manufacturer specific version of 'lane assist' where it will 'assist' the driver in steering to maintain the vehicles position between the lane markers, most systems have a form of hand detection built in so that if it senses no contact with the steering wheel, various 'driver inducement' warnings are initiated. It isn't a self steering system as such, but just seeks to maintain lane position where the lane can be defined - no clear definition, no assistance - equally, it will resist lane changes unless the driver has used the vehicles indicators (some, lets say, stereotypical German car drivers complain like hell about this 'feature'), it's an assistive technology to compliment the adaptive cruise technologies but works independently of cruise control, when required. Like adaptive cruise, there is a trust threshold to be crossed by the user and the implementation varies widely, some systems only use one camera, some three, some tie into GPS and mapping data, some rely solely on visible cues, they all work reliably once all the conditions are satisfied though.
In Toyota at least it won’t resist lane changes without indicator, it will start to steer back but it gives up immediately if you keep the steering input up. It works seamlessly if you forget to indicate.
Also the button to switch it on and off is right below your thumb on the steering wheel next to the button for the radar cruise distance, it disables itself below a certain speed, I think 37 mph.
I can say from experience that if it’s used judiciously it makes a big difference to how tired you feel at the end of a long journey. In those eternal 50 mph roadworks on motorways it’s a joy.
I have tired Toyotos system in Iceland for a week and its just utterly APPALING.
The system swerves back and forth between the lines, like its drunk, even on the stright, it gets more and more swervey. The constantly tugging on your arms as it tried to do its drunk driving down the road is extremely tiring.
Get in a Tesla and try their version, its leagues ahead.
The biggest problem most of this self driving assistance has above level 2 I.e. line guidance all the way until you get to full self driving you need a meat bag able to take over in an emergency.
Which they will either be asleep, eating, talking or doing anything other than paying attention to the road. Sit a human in a car with nothing to do for 15 minutes and they will not be alert enough to take over in the fraction of a second that is needed to avoid a major incident.
As a driver I can do 150 miles without a pause, as a passenger......
Is that manufacturers would just bin all this bling and rubbish, and concentrate on making the damn things more reliable with a better life expectancy and easier to maintain and repair when they do wrong wrong.
Whilst at it, make them more flexible and customisable for the user so they become a bit more user friendly......
Whilst my work brings me into close contact with vehicles that have caused 'customer concerns', have 'unintended characteristics' and even 'thermal incidents', they are a small percentage of total vehicle parc of <6 year old vehicles in the UK, my own vehicles have had a relatively low amount of unscheduled maintenance which is not uncommon. A colleague runs a Citroen Xara, other than a starter battery, clutch & flywheel and rear main crankshaft oil seal (cause of clutch failure & replaced at the same time as the clutch), the old bus gets him to work & back on a depressingly predictable basis. I've had more problems with newer, more expensive versions of my cars (although some were fitted with development features & software) than i've ever had in the 13+ years i've owned & driven my primary vehicle.
In that case I postulate you have money to throw away and keep buying new ones, thus giving the car industry the beleif that folks are gullable and think cars are becoming disposable.....
In the last 20 years I have had 4 cars each with over 250,000 miles on the clock, and I can categorically state long term reliability and customer care is not something that manufacturers care about. Because, there are enough mugs who prop up their profits by constantly buying new ones.... Imagine if housebuilders did the same?
That's because it's over 20 years old when they were making a decent product (IMHO approx 1992-2005 is the best period to buy a car from provided you can find one that hasn't done eleventy billion miles by now)
Try buying a new car with all the crud they put on them now and see how long it lasts.
I'm told that dealers are only required to keep spares for models up to 8 years old (down from 10 not long ago). That tells you how long they expect modern cars to last.
The chances of a driver being alert enough or quick enough to take over if the automatic system gets into trouble are remote. This is already a problem on aircraft where the autopilot does most of the flying and the readiness/experience levels of the human pilots is deteriorating over time.
Tesla's level 2 is used as a level 3 wannabe by a few idiots who end up in Reg stories when their are "driving" hands-free and brain-free and their Tesla plows into a truck and kills them.
Deliberately designing a car where you can take your hands off the wheel and stop paying any attention to the road, relying on some sort of alarm to get the driver back to attentiveness to deal with whatever situation has come up the car can't deal with will kill people. Even if you aren't sleeping it will take way too long to get your attention back to driving and assess the situation to determine what exactly it is you need to deal with. If you are sleeping it would easily be over 10 seconds.
All that should be allowed are level 2 type driving aids that require hands on the wheel (mainly to keep hands off the phone) until level 4 is available, which is basically full self driving anywhere the car has mapped, so you and the car will know ahead of time when you will be expected to take over, and it could pull over and wait for you if necessary.
If I understand the levels correctly (and I may not), level 3 would be a "user in charge" system: The car can drive itself in defined areas with no human interaction or monitoring and, if it detects circumstances it can't handle or leaves the defined areas without a human taking over it can fail safe (get to the hard shoulder/pull over in a safe spot/etc), at which point the meatbag can assume control. It must have a "user in charge": A qualified driver in a suitable condition to drive if the car is unable to do so itself (i.e. no getting the car to drive you home drunk or drive and unqualifed driver somewhere).
Level 3 allows the car to drive under certain conditions, and doesn't require constant alertness, but it isn't well defined what happens when something the car doesn't know how to handle comes up. If it is in the far lane of a busy expressway, pulling over may not be feasible. It may not even be legal (there are plenty of urban expressways in the US that ban stopping on the shoulder except in an emergency)
That's what is going to get you - what do you with a car that can drive on an expressway fine but isn't rated for heavy rain or snow when that heavy rain/snow starts?
Cars and aeroplanes controlled by humans are disasters waiting to happen FTFY
The question is how we use technology to reduce the chances of bad things happening. However, as we eliminite some accident reasons, e.g. road rage and distraction, we will inadvertently create others. This trade off bothers people and is sometimes seen as immoral, even if less people die overall. Hence the focus is on the people who died in a self-driving Tesla, rather than the statistical improvement in accident rate.
The question is whether a driver with nothing to do but "be ready to take over if necessary" will ever be ready to take over when it's necessary?
IMO a driver who is not involved in the driving process cannot be ready to take over at a moment's notice. This isn't something you can fix with technology. It's just part of the human condition that if you don't have anything to do you start doing something... maybe you fancy watching a Harry Potter movie.
Until we have level 5 the driver should still have to manually operate the controls. All the self driving sensors etc can be used to warn the driver, apply emergency braking and perhaps take over if the driver falls unconscious. Giving the driver the illusion that the car can drive itself it just bad design.
If you really want a self driving car then get a taxi or chauffeur.
"Until we have level 5 the driver should still have to manually operate the controls. All the self driving sensors etc can be used to warn the driver, apply emergency braking and perhaps take over if the driver falls unconscious."
So, by that logic, cruise control should be banned, as it stops a driver concentrating on his speed.
Having driven a Tesla with Autopilot, I can tell you I had no problem staying alert and ready to take over, just as when on cruise control I am always ready to take over control of the speed. I was, in fact, able to take over more quickly in case of emergency, as;
1) I could be concentrating on my awareness of the traffic and road conditions rather than on steering and speed control,
2) I could hover my foot over the appropriate control when I felt there was a danger it would be needed
3) My overall level of tiredness was lower during the journey, as the car was doing more of the work for me, so I would be more alert after a long drive than otherwise.
There are, of course, bad/stupid drivers who will use automation technologies incorrectly. However, these drivers are the ones likely to have an accident anyway, and automation is likely to prevent more than it indirectly causes, which is a net improvement to safety.
I'll turn on the headlights when I want them on. And I'll turn them off when I want them off.
I'll turn on the wipers when I want them on. And I'll turn them off when I want them off.
I'll drive in the lane where I want to drive.
I'll apply the brakes when I want to brake.
And since I'll be doing all this myself, I'll be wide awake and concentrating on driving, and will continue to have an accident-free motoring life.
You are me and I claim my five pounds!
I will believe in car automation when I see one that can reliably drive from London to the outer Hebrides - including managing the ferries - in any weather, at any time of day, at any time if year. Fleshy meatbags can do that without any great effort...
Allowing the owner to perform basic maintenance without requiring a main dealer to tell the on board computer that the maintenance has been performed would be a good first start. I have a suspicion that the only reason we see so much of this crap - auto lights, auto wipers, lane following, controls for the radio five levels deep in menus (and my personal bete noir - touch screens completely lacking in haptic feedback) is there solely because software is cheap, and manufacturers have to have something to keep up with their competition. This kind of 'driver assistance' is a toy and should be treated as such - restrict it to constant speed cruise control (no, don't make it follow the white line or adjust its speed to the vehicle in front - *you* should be making decisions when you're the person in charge. And you should never, when behind the wheel of a car, not be in charge.)
when their one million strong fleet of totally self driving robo taxis hit the road.
Or... that is what the Tesla disciples keep on telling us so it must be true.
Their Messiah (Elon Musk) promised a car would go from LA to NYC (or similar) in when was it? 2016? 2017? 2018? 2019? Well sometime in the past and it still has not happened yet.
Look out for a totally bland car in the future. But never mind the screen is big enough so that all four passengers can get their latest fix of Telly while the car drives into a fire truck at 55mph!
Consider me a sceptic on this whole area. Lane assist is dangerous.
I remember electric windows being an impressive feature. Now there are built in bluetooth, satnavs and all kinds of sensors and features which start on the expensive vehicles and work their way down to mainstream vehicles.
Yet still some idiot will claim trickle down economics isnt real. Probably typing it on a smartphone, tablet or fast computer.
Yet still some idiot will claim trickle down economics isnt real. Probably typing it on a smartphone, tablet or fast computer.
Oh, they're very real. So the German economy powers the EU (or cynics may say vice-versa). Automaking powers the German economy, but car sales have been in decline, nudging Germany ever closer to recession. Which then means job losses, bank collapses and all those (not)fun things.
That could be accelerated by liability. So autopilots are heavily promoted. Let the car drive you in comfort and style while you read an ebook. Some time later, find a pile of autofines from fixed AI systems that detect bad driving and tax you. If those fines went directly to the manufacturer, then speed sign recognition may be improved, or disabled by default. But the car would be left with a bunch of expensive self-driving gubbins that inflates the cost and is too risky to use.
Personally I'd rather have a dumb car, and don't think that self-driving is ready for prime-time until road networks are upgraded to support that better. So lane keeping could be a lot easier if roads had built-in lane markings the car could use rather than relying on detecting painted lines.
@AC
"Because as technology becomes more widely deployed there are savings from scale, efficiencies from experience gained, etc."
That is actually the trickle down. For example the whacking huge battery to power the first mobile phones which were bricks and cost insane amounts to make a call is not a mass market wide scale product. Its also not going to survive as a product without selling some. Or course by spending the money which funds the manufacturers, designers and producers of those monster 'portable' devices paid for that glorious disposable item I can buy for £20 at the local petrol station shop.
Just as these varying technologies and safety features and must haves only make it to mass market because those who can afford it buy it. Compare standards of living and they have shot off like a rocket. We have expectations now that were barely fantasy a few decades ago. I talk for hours with friends from around the world for free, yet I remember before a mobile phone and being told not to spend too long on the phone.
So much of our normal lives is an expectation other parts of the world dont even imagine. Amusingly the skills, technology and even distribution of wealth is tricking down to these countries. Parts of Africa have been revolutionised by the mobile phone which is made cheap enough for them to afford and use to make payments which has reduced robbery and muggings.
'trickledown' is usually used to describe (inaccurately) the process whereby making very rich people richer makes everyone else richer (a rising tide raises all boats).
Technology becoming cheaper and more widespread is not trickledown in any usage or definition I have come across.
Assuming this new (to me) meaning I withdraw my snark relating to your original post.
Level 6 will allow 24/7 tracking (already happening on newer Mercs I believe), full nanny-state driver monitoring, and the ability for the Police to remotely disable the vehicle, or slow it to a crawl so that the driver can be apprehended. No more police-chase fatalities, at least not for the car running into things...
People on this thread being all meh about computerised bits in the car and demanding good old fashioned mechanical switches...
Reminds me of when the first satnavs came along and the same GG's were saying real men have a dog-eared AA Road Atlas and a sextant.
Personally I am looking forward to a fully self-driving, or even self-flying, whatsis that can take me home by itself when I stumble out of the pub.
My personal gripe with vehicle tech is tyre pressure monitoring - later mandated by the EU as a fuel saving / safety technology, initially, it was a handy thing to have, warning of possible punctures or the natural loss of air from the tyres - it has now become something the increasingly 'unaware' driving public treats as a 'fault' , because there is a warning message / lamp on the dash.... FFS, when did people become incapable of carrying out periodic tyre pressure checks? (I suspect the answer is around the time TPMS became mandatory).
My new Toyota Corolla Hybrid has adaptive cruise control (which is great) and lane assist. The latter works but tends to position the car on the right side of the lane which I don't like. I find myself continually fighting it which is annoying. If I just leave it to do it's thing it will then bug me every five minutes to put my hands on the wheel. Just resting my fingers is apparently not enough.
So I never use the lane assist.
Lane assist is off by default which is good but so is cruise control which I'm not so keen on. Obviously it should be inactive by default but when I want to use it why do I have to switch it on first? My previous car - a Honda Jazz - had a hard switch so you could choose whether to have CC permanently on or off. But I don't really understand why it needs the ability to be on or off. Either CC is controlling the speed or it isn't. I don't see why it also needs the ability to turn it off.
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2024
