back to article American ISPs fined $75,000 for fuzzing airport's weather radar by stealing spectrum

Three ISPs will be fined $25,000 apiece by America's broadband watchdog, the FCC, for interfering with weather signals in Puerto Rico. Boom Solutions, Integra Wireless, and WinPR were all found to be using devices for their point-to-point broadband that were “misconfigured,” according to the regulator this week. This caused …

  1. Claverhouse Silver badge
    Mushroom

    USAR ! USAR !

    The old USA is, as I frequently note, turning into the old USSR more and more, and these power-playing Kremlinesque antics of both court [ White House ] and Bureaucracy [ DC ] have been getting more so since Clinton's days, let alone these days of The Amazing Trumpo...

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: USAR ! USAR !

      I was thinking more of "the Great Dictator" than anything else.

      1. DryBones
        Gimp

        Re: USAR ! USAR !

        So, suggestively formed potato then.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: USAR ! USAR !

        His Excellency has referred to the Jewish question.

    2. TheVogon

      Re: USAR ! USAR !

      About the only good thing you can say about Americans and gun ownership is that owning guns makes it statistically more likely that you or a member of your family will die from firearms. Most likely their own. So Darwin Award status seems to apply.

      1. Dimmer Bronze badge

        Re: USAR ! USAR !

        "About the only good thing,,,,will die from firearms". Why do you think it is a good thing for people to die? I would not even say these things in jest.

        So, if you own a car, you or your family are more than likely to die from it? Should Darwin Award apply here also?

        Live and raised on a farm. We own several guns and our family takes the time and effort to teach our children how to load, shoot and store guns properly. Back in the 70s, in agg class, we were also taught how to properly use and operate guns. NOT an AK47 or machine gun but rifles and hand guns. We even brought them to school.

        Our day would start a dawn. You go feed the livestock. If there was a coyote or other predator you killed it before it killed a calf. Otherwise your gun stayed in the gun rack, even when you were at school.

        We now have an issue with wild hogs. They roll in the mud so their skin is pretty much bullet proof. They are wild and deadly. They will kill anything in their way, including women and children. If you don't have a high power RIFLE (not a hand gun) with multiple shots you will be hurt or killed.

        There is a time and place for everything. A rifle the will shoot 3000 yards has no place in the city. A fully automatic firearm is illegal for everyone except a few. They are no more than dangerous expensive toys.

        Proper gun safety is no longer taught in our rural schools, so we have these morons that call themselves "Hunters" that drive the back roads looking for Deer to kill. They shoot regardless of what might be behind the dear, usually our homes.

        In our state, more Deer, Hogs, Dogs, Cats and Armadillos are kill by Fords, Chev, Doge, and Toyota's than by guns.

        1. Outski

          Re: USAR ! USAR !

          "A rifle the will shoot 3000 yards has no place in the city"

          A rifle that will shoot 3000 yards (close to 2 miles) has no place outside specialist units of the armed forces.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: USAR ! USAR !

            "A rifle that will shoot 3000 yards (close to 2 miles) has no place outside specialist units of the armed forces."

            I'm guessing you've never bothered to learn much about rifles.

            The majority of larger calibre (more than rimfire .22 or .17 rifles) will send a projectile somewhere between 3000 and 4500 metres.

            This is a natural result of the physics involved. There is no way to make the accurate range and the maximum range identical. The latter will generally be 10 to 20 times the former.

            Depending on the type of hunting, ranges may exceed 500 meters, though most hunting is done at no more than 300 metres.

            Any rifle that will be accurate at those ranges is almost certain to reach 3000 metres if pointed at an angle half way between the horizon and zenith. At that range I expect the unpredictable variance would be measured in hundreds of metres.

            The second problem with that statement is the fact that in a modern economy, millions of hunters live in cities, but hunt hundreds or thousands of kilometres away.

            1. Outski

              Re: USAR ! USAR !

              "I'm guessing you've never bothered to learn much about rifles."

              Actually, I was going by what I was told by an old mate who'd done his years in one of those (USian) specialist units firing .308s (until his best mate/spotter was killed two foot away from him).

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: USAR ! USAR !

          So rolling in mud makes a wild hog impervious to bullets? Then to protect US schoolchildren all we need to do is make them hooded boilersuits of pigskin and let them play in the mud? GENIUS!! Saves us all the cost of bulletproof backpacks and active shooter drills. I stopped reading after that. You are obviously too delusional to be allowed near gun.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: USAR ! USAR !

            "Saves us all the cost of bulletproof backpacks and active shooter drills"

            Of course, spending that time and effort teaching all children road safety and how to swim will save a lot more lives than paranoid snake oil like bulletproof backpacks.

    3. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: USAR ! USAR !

      "have been getting more so since Clinton's days, "

      You need to rewind about 20 years. This started happening more openly under Reagan but the power plays in one form or another date back to the late 50s.

      That late warning about not letting the military-industrial tail wag the national dog was ignored and the result was inevitable.

    4. devTrail

      Re: USAR ! USAR !

      I suspect that all this talking about inter-agency battle and power-playing is just a way to personalise the issue and attack those opposing the business. The accusations of personal animosity against Comstock seem the classic old argumentum ad ominem.

  2. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

    If I recall ...

    ... the origins over the weather radar controversy, it was the developers of this technology choosing to use an ISM radio band. ISM bands are reserved for applications where interference between competing users can be tolerated. Those users being anything from WiFi, garage door openers, RF induction heaters and toy RC cars. And those users have no regulatory recourse should they encounter interference. Basically confining them to the r.f. equivalent of a hive of scum and villainy. You walk in there, you are on your own.

    But then the weather radar people sobbed, "We've spent so much time and money developing our application. Why should we be accountable for failing to read the FCC frequency allocation chart before we got started?" And the regulators fell for it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If I recall ...

      Maybe they chose it because of the relevant, immutable physical characteristics of the phenomena to be tracked?

      1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

        Re: If I recall ...

        Common misconception. Weather radar doesn't need to operate on some magical resonant frequency of anything. The wavelength used simply needs to be long with respect to the size of particles of interest for Rayleigh scattering to work.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: If I recall ...

          Ironically, the very article you point to says that attenuation depends on the wavelength used by the radar. So much for "common misconception".Maybe those people using weather radars to protect thousands of human lives actually have a clue what they're up to, what about trusting them a little more?

          "Microwaves used in weather radars can be absorbed by rain, depending on the wavelength used."

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_radar#Attenuation

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: If I recall ...

          From the Wikipedia article you posted:

          "Shorter wavelengths are useful for smaller particles, but the signal is more quickly attenuated. Thus 10 cm (S-band) radar is preferred but is more expensive than a 5 cm C-band system. 3 cm X-band radar is used only for short-range units, and 1 cm Ka-band weather radar is used only for research on small-particle phenomena such as drizzle and fog."

          "For 10 cm radars, this attenuation is negligible. That is the reason why countries with high water content storms are using 10 cm wavelength, for example the US NEXRAD"

          "For a 5 cm radar, absorption becomes important in heavy rain and this attenuation leads to underestimation of echoes in and beyond a strong thunderstorm."

          "Shorter wavelengths are even more attenuated and are only useful on short range"

          So it looks that to be *useful*, they really need to operate at some "magical frequency".

          1. rcxb Silver badge

            Re: If I recall ...

            So it looks that to be *useful*, they really need to operate at some "magical frequency".

            Wrong. The original comment was that they don't need to be on the ISM band. Your information just says they can't be half-way across the spectrum...

            Moving from 2.5GHz to 2.6GHz gets you out of the unlicensed ISM band. You don't need to go from 10 cm (3GHz) to 3cm (10GHz) to do so.

    2. katrinab Silver badge

      Re: If I recall ...

      Most Gracious Weather Gods

      Please could you use a different frequency in your dangerous weather phenomena, as the FCC has allocated this frequency to toy cars.

      I remain my Lord, your most humble and obedient servant

      CTO

      Puerto Rico Airports Authority

    3. chivo243 Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: If I recall ...

      +1 for the Mos Eisley reference. Smiling is the force...

    4. NullReference Exception

      Re: If I recall ...

      My understanding is that the weather radar is not in the ISM band (5.725-5.875 GHz as per the linked Wikipedia page). Rather, the radar uses frequencies immediately below the ISM band. Wireless network devices in the US are allowed to use idle weather radar frequencies, but they must listen before transmitting and employ dynamic frequency selection (DFS) to automatically find unused channels. DFS, in practice, is unusable as devices periodically drop offline for extended periods of time when they see anything that "might" be a radar signal.

      Wireless network gear sold for the US market enforces DFS, but wireless network gear for the international market does not and is readily available through Amazon and other sources. Aside from not enforcing DFS, international gear often lets you choose any channel supported by the hardware regardless of whether it is allowed in your region. This option can be very tempting for wireless ISPs trying to punch through crowded spectrum, but that doesn't make it legal.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: If I recall ...

        "Wireless network gear sold for the US market enforces DFS, but wireless network gear for the international market does not "

        This is becoming less and less the case due to the safety issues worldwide (5GHz weather radar operates everywhere). DFS is even finding its way into "indoor" frequencies due to the proliferation of point to point links being setup by people with no concept of aviation safety.

        Decent equipment snoops the band and will switch to an unoccupied frequency rather than shutting down, unless rigidly locked to one channel.

    5. David Pearce

      Re: If I recall ...

      The ~5.6GHz section of the 5 GHz block was excluded from the ISM band in most countries because it was used for weather radar first. It has gradually been released to WiFi use as the radars move out.

      Unfortunately WiFi scanners detect 5.6GHz as unused spectrum free from interference and go for it without reading the rules

    6. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: If I recall ...

      One of the reasons these ISM bands exist is because of the issues of water attenuation - which means that weather radar must work on these frequencies - and they were there first (long before Wifi existed)

      One of the operating conditions for outdoor 5GHz wifi equipment is to CHECK for radar emissions and change frequency away from them if detected. This isn't the first time US ISPs have been thwapped for deploying illegal equipment that doesn't do that.

      (It's also why Europe _requires_ that outdoor point-to-point 5GHz links only use the "C" segment of the band and are licensed - it's not so much to control the things as to know where they are when things go wrong - and outdoor point to point in the lower bands is illegal despite the proliferation of such things on channel 100)

      If you don't want to play the "license-free" ISM non-interference game, then get licensed channels in other bands.

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    An ISP fined $25K ? What's the use ?

    Fine at least $250K. Otherwise, it won't even be noticed.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: An ISP fined $25K ? What's the use ?

      This is Puerto Rico. Not many rich down there. These are local Puerto Rican ISPs. What you want, Agent Orange?

      1. Philip Storry
        Flame

        Re: An ISP fined $25K ? What's the use ?

        I'm pretty sure Agent Orange is part of the problem, not the solution.

        Unless you meant the chemical, rather than the President...

        1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: An ISP fined $25K ? What's the use ?

          Agent Orange and "The Chosen One" - both are bad for the environment

      2. stiine Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        Re: An ISP fined $25K ? What's the use ?

        That will only help if the interference is caused by vegetation.

    2. jockmcthingiemibobb

      Re: An ISP fined $25K ? What's the use ?

      $25K will hurt a little ISP. If they had $5K spare they'd be using licensed links anyway.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

    has brought nothing but more money and power to the corporations and less protections and recourse for the citizens.

    I just watched a very disturbing video on NetFlix called "The Devil We Know" that demonstrates just how bad things can get when there is no regulation.

    That video also taught me a new term, "Corporate Capture" where the heads of federal agencies are controlled and told what to say by their corporate masters.

    That term made me think of our man Pai in the FCC.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

      The notion of "regulatory capture" or "bureaucratic capture" has been written about by economists for decades, dating back at least to at least the 1950s and probably much farther. It is a form of *government* failure, not market failure, and can exist only when a regulatory agency has been established. It's usually much worse, as with Mr Pai, than having no regulation at all, because it makes it difficult or impossible for individuals/market participants and council/local/municipal governments to right the wrongs that the corporate interests advance. As bizarre as it sounds, we really are better off without The Government.

      1. Claverhouse Silver badge

        Re: History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

        That was the opinion of the just gone David Koch, and he certainly thrived without awful regulation.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "individuals/market participants and council/local/municipal governments to right the wrongs

        Do you believe they really have such powers?

        Market participants will adopt what will "maximize shareholder's value" - if not they will be pushed out of the market. Individuals usually need the power of Law to act, and if you don't have anything able to enforce the Law, it becomes useless.

        "council/local/municipal governments" are still a "government" which need enough real power to act - and they could even being easier to bribe - especially from very large corporations.

        Moreover, even if you have an enlightened "council/local/municipal governments" that "rights wrongs" locally, you can easily suffer from the fact that everywhere else that doesn't happen, and as we no longer live in little XVIII century communities loosely connected, whatever happens around, even hundreds or thousand of miles away, can easily create havoc locally too.

        Take robocalls: if you ban them locally, but there are ways to make them work from locations where they aren't banned and cannot be prosecuted, good luck to enforce the ban....

      3. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

        "It's usually much worse, as with Mr Pai, than having no regulation at all"

        Wrong. At that point the dominant player simply stomps all opposition into the ground and raises prices when done.

        That was proven multiple times over in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Those regulators (The FCC and FTC in particular) EXIST because of what was happening in a regulatory-free environment.

        The failure is that the abusive dominant players realised they could game the system to their advantage - and the government didn't stop them doing so. It's happened before - and the players eventually ejected. The abject failure and capturability of US State-level PUCs pretty much guarantees that next time around they won't exist in the forms currently known - and you can expect stricter rules about where regulators come from or go to.

        All this has been made possible by cultures of secrecy and the inability to track money flows. Times change and it's becoming harder for this stuff to remain swept under the rug.

        1. Carpet Deal 'em
          FAIL

          Re: History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

          You seem to be ducking the actual accusation: that captured regulators are worse than no regulators*. At best, captured regulators will pass unnecessary and expensive rules whose costs the big players can eat, but drive the little guy out of business; at worst, they brazenly write the rules to favor their specific benefactors over everybody else. Reiterating the reason these agencies were created doesn't answer the charge.

          *I think we can all agree that independent regulators tend to be good things(though sometimes you get things like the first FDA head trying to stamp out caffeine).

    2. Claverhouse Silver badge

      Re: History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

      Thanks for that documentary. Downloaded and shall watch.

      On a similar note, although as a vegan I'm not that fond of pharmaceuticals, this [ rather frightful ] progressive magazine has an interesting article on such shady stuff:

      Prospect : The Insulin Racket>

      Apparently, insulins went up by 3 times between 2007 and 2017 and consequently more people die.

      1. felixk

        Re: History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

        T1 diabetic here. Human insulin (Humulin, Novolog or Novorapid, …) still is extremely cheap (thank you, Dr Banting and Best). What has gone up immensely are the more recent long-acting insulins (i. glargine a/k/a Lantus, i. detemir a/k/a Levemir, i. degludec) and rapid-acting insulind ("pump insulins": i. lispro = Humalog, i. glulisine = Apidra, i. aspart = Novorapid) which for the most part are still under patent protection. A few notes:

        1. Insulin lispro (Humalog) has come off patent protection in 2015. Lilly is marketing a generic at half the price of brand-name Humalog; personally, I cannot wait for Teva Pharma or some other generics giant to mix things up.

        2. Pump users are perfectly able to maintain adequate BG control on human insulin (Humulin R, Actrapid); rapid-acting insulin makes some things a little easier, like having to plan a work-out only two hours in advance instead of four. Walk into any Walmart, buy a vial of "Relion" human insulin for $25. Oh, and what you get is original Novo Nordisk Novolin, nothing cooked up in some backyard lab.

        3. Long-acting insulin (Lantus, Levemir) is easily replaced by three injections of NPH. Again, that is mostly a question of convenience.

        4. The argument "But the fiends abroad only pay $40 per vial" doesn't wash. In Austria, the list price for a vial of Apidra (insulin glulisine, a rapid-acting insulin made by Sanofi-Aventis) is about $44 (EUR 38.50); in the US, the cash price is about $310. If you were to force the manufacturer to sell in its biggest market for the Austrian price, drug development would likely grind to a halt. Currently, insulin and other blockbuster drugs cross-subsidize development of new antibiotics necessitated by bacterial drug resistance.

        5. The only people in the US who pay cash prices are the uninsured and badly-insured. (We have that, too; here, the saying is that insurance will pay "not enough to live, yet too much to die".) Just require that the cash price must equal the lowest price negotiated with any insurance (including Medicare) or pharm benefits manager, and the problem goes away.

        6. (Unrelated to insulin) The same fix would apply to, say, surgery; my excellent hip repair in the US came with a six-digit bill; insurance paid about 25%, and that was that. No, quantity discounts cannot be responsible for insurance pricing; after all, BC/BS cannot guarantee that it will send N patients to Dr. Bruckner.

        To summarize: There are options other than spending $1000/month.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Cost of pharmaceuticals and cross-subsidization

          The argument "But the fiends abroad only pay $40 per vial" doesn't wash. In Austria, the list price for a vial of Apidra (insulin glulisine, a rapid-acting insulin made by Sanofi-Aventis) is about $44 (EUR 38.50); in the US, the cash price is about $310. If you were to force the manufacturer to sell in its biggest market for the Austrian price, drug development would likely grind to a halt. Currently, insulin and other blockbuster drugs cross-subsidize development of new antibiotics necessitated by bacterial drug resistance.

          Are you claiming that Sanofi-Aventis sells its products in the EU (which universally tends to have drug prices closer to the Austrian than to the US levels) at a loss? That would appear to be a monumentally stupid business decision, especially considering the size of the EU market. Given that Sanofi consistently manages to generate a very healthy 20% net business income, it seems to me that its managers are anything but stupid.

          The development cross-subsidization argument also appears dubious if we look at the Sanofi's annual financial report [See http://qfx.quartalflife.com/clients/(S(msjy3ffphthmxlj2ndqwl3vb))/fr/sanofi/frc/default1.aspx?culture=en-US; if you feel uncomfortable clicking at random links in comments, feel free to follow a link from https://www.sanofi.com/en/investors/company-overview/key-financial-data/].

          The thing which immediately catches the eye is that R&D is a relatively minor fraction of the overall cost - it consistently accounts for between 14% and 16% of the net sales. The sales and management ("Selling & general expenses") is nearly twice as large, at 26% to 29%, and almost as large as the cost of making and distributing their products ("Cost of sales", at 31% to 34%). The R&D cost is also consistently lower than the business net income.

          Let's compare these figures to a profitable company from the tech sector - INTC [https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INTC/financials?p=INTC]. Here, we have R&D costs at 19%-22% of the total revenue (ie higher than Sanofi's). At the same time, the sales and management fraction is a lot lower, at 9% to 15% of the revenue, while the direct cost of revenue is higher, at 37% to 40% depending on the year.

          To me, it looks like the inflated prices Sanofi charges in the US end up cross-subsidizing their marketing campaigns for other drugs, rather than the R&D.

          1. felixk

            Re: Cost of pharmaceuticals and cross-subsidization

            My apologies, I had forgotten to subscribe to the thread. :(

            > Are you claiming that Sanofi-Aventis sells its products in the EU (which universally tends to have drug prices closer to the Austrian than to the US levels) at a loss?

            No, not at all. They are selling it for the marginal price. The actual cost of producing and selling a vial of insulin is below the $44 Austrian end-user price, as you say. what you are seeing is called price discrimination: different prices for different market segments. That only works as long as we have organisations like the FDA and it's Austrian equivalent AGES which prohibit and prevent "grey" imports.

            If, say, the US congress were to legislate that medication prices in the US must equal the lowest price worldwide, India and Mexico etc. would no longer have those drugs. Oops.

            Next level: Austrians get charged $310/vial, just like Americans. Fair, but then Austrians won't have those drugs either: Austria has a single-payer system, and if something is expensive, we don't get it. Just a different form of rationing.

            Thank you for the pointers to the financials; one thing that is missing there is the write-down when several years' worth of R&D are flushed down the tubes because of a potential drug's side effects. That happens intermittently and eats up all those nice reserves that are accumulated in the better years. (Not that pharma companies are starving!)

            Cheers,

            Felix.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: History has proven that "light touch" regulation...

        "although as a vegan I'm not that fond of pharmaceuticals,"

        Eh?

    3. I3N
      Mushroom

      DOD with Legislative Branch levers ...

      Performance is about the same at twice the costs ....

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sensible suggestion

    Trump apparently suggested Greenland be traded for Puerto Rico. Send some politicians from PR to Denmark and I guess they'll be agitating for it.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. sanmigueelbeer
      Joke

      Re: Sensible suggestion

      Trump apparently suggested Greenland be traded for Puerto Rico.

      I think there's generally a big misunderstanding here about this "Greenland" fiasco.

      Trump wanted Trump CORPORATION to buy Greenland.

      Trump originally had the notion that "Denmark" was actually one of the 50 American states.

      Why don't the telcos just offer a "block robocalls" service for $10/mo or something? Big competitive advantage and they'd still make money.

      Verizon has one for $2.99 per month.

      1. Joe W Silver badge

        Re: Sensible suggestion

        And in civilised countries a do not call entry is actually enforced..

        But then the phone(y) companies cannot make money on this. Good luck getting people in charge with some common sense, it's not all that common... (plus they are bought and sold for companies' gold)

        1. sanmigueelbeer

          Re: Sensible suggestion

          And in civilised countries a do not call entry is actually enforced.

          And they are enforced. The biggest "loophole" is when the call originates from other countries. Everyone and every telco knows where (or what country) these spam/scam calls are coming from.

          Another legal loophole to the "Do Not Call" are the ones politicians put for themselves: There are "exemptions" such as calls from political parties are allowed. For me, that exemption is not acceptable and one of the reasons I have enabled Lenny and since then the scam calls have stopped.

          Good luck getting people in charge with some common sense

          You're talking about FCC's Chairman Pai. "common sense" is not what got him the job. It's the people with MONEY that got him the job so now he has to "show his appreciation".

          1. Robert Moore
            Megaphone

            Re: Sensible suggestion

            'Another legal loophole to the "Do Not Call" are the ones politicians put for themselves: There are "exemptions" such as calls from political parties are allowed.'

            I got a text message from a political party today asking if they could count on my support... Not now you can't!

        2. Carlie J. Coats, Jr.

          Re: Sensible suggestion

          Then the alternative is to create more-reasonable causes for private action.

          Currently, the law calls for $500/call civil damages (with $1500 for calls after a request to cease). Court costs are going to be a lot more than that, so it's a losing proposition for the call-receiver.

          As a suggestion, define an "aggravated violation" of the Do Not Call act as either (a) robocall; or (b) call that uses a spoofed or obfuscated phone number, and let the penalties be:

          *) $5000/call

          *) legal and court costs

          *) triple reimbursement for teleco costs in helping identify the offender

          As the previous poster noted, you need to encourage the telecos to *want* to help.

          Also, larger penalties with costs included would encourage the legal profession to want to help (better than than ambulance-chasing :-)

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Sensible suggestion

            My preference is for requiring the telcos to automate the process but at much lower fees, say a couple of quid or a fiver for a TPS registered number. Get a call, dial a code when you put the phone down, the fee gets credited to your account and the caller charged with the fee plus the telco's fee. The call came from a different telco? No problem, the charge gets passed to them, they add their own fee and pass it on to the caller. Multiple telcos? It goes on accumulating more handling fees. A telco doesn't know where the call comes from? Tough, they pay the bill and realise they need to keep better records.

            Downsides?

            There'd be a need to prevent fraud - someone trying to collect a fee on every call whoever it came from so there'd need to be some statistical work to verify problem callers and maybe charge the would-be fraudsters for their trouble.

            There'd also be an upfront cost for the telcos putting the mechanism together. In theory their fee covers it, in practice as it would close down the problem PDQ and they'd lose out on their investment. You know what would happen? They'd suddenly find ways to cut down on the problem rather that do that. Not being faced with a mandatory investment they couldn't recover is also good for the bottom line.

          2. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: Sensible suggestion

            "Currently, the law calls for $500/call civil damages (with $1500 for calls after a request to cease). Court costs are going to be a lot more than that, so it's a losing proposition for the call-receiver."

            Incorrect.

            The TCPA provides $500 _statutory_(*) per call damages, tripled for wilful violation(**) - filable in small claims court local to the plaintiff - against BOTH the calling company and the company which hired them - with all filing, administration and other charges acruing to the respondent.

            Attorney fees are not provided for as attorneys are _specifically excluded_ from small claims courts.

            This has led to a mountain of false information being circulated by scam/spam companies about how it's impossible to file, etc etc, legal fees, etc etc.

            The other problem has been that small claims judges across the USA have refused to hear cases or enforce the _statutory_ damages against local businesses or directed that this case must be heard by a higher court.

            _Every single time_ this has been kicked to higher courts it has come back down to the lower courts with the judge in question being censured and told to both hear the case and find for the plaintiff (the unspoken part being that a judge who doesn't comply has a limited tenure left as a judge or as a lawyer)

            There's enough precedent in all 50 US states now that if a small claims judge even thinks of taking this route (s)he is courting a permanent loss of employment.

            There's only one grey area left in TCPA law - that of vicarious liability of franchisors for the actions of franchisees (ie, going after Dominos USA for the phone spamming of the local franchise holder is unlikely to fly unless it's shown the business model was approved by the franchising company, ditto going after an alarm company for the spamming actions of retailers selling the product, unless it can be shown the activity was encouraged - this is where "affiliate" spamming gets traction)

            (*) Statutory meaning that judges have _zero_ discretion in awarding the damages.

            (**) Wilful is defined, but boils down to multiple calls per day, forged (or no) caller-ID, calling after being told not to or breaching do not call lists(***), robo(prerecorded) calls and calling hospital lines or emergncy services lines.

            (***) Several states have their own fines for breaching DNC lists - Indiana is about $50k/call

            The idea was and is to take down junk callers/faxers with the death of a million papercuts - and if it put the company out of business, that was intentional - this is the part that small claims judges refused to allow - and got slapped down hard on - remember that lower level US judges are elected, not appointed and they were afraid of bad publicity - although that cuts both ways and one judge who refused to apply the fines was voted out on a landslide once the media got hold of it and the subsequent appeal court spanking delivered.

            As for enforcement: once you have your judgement, if they don't cough up you apply to the court for bailiffs to enforce - which gets added to the respondent's bill, not the plaintiff's. There are a couple of hoops to jump through for interstate enforcement but they're a basic formality.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sensible suggestion

      It would be nice to know why there are so many downvotes to my post. Is it the suggestion that Puerto Ricans might feel they were better off attached to the EU rather than the US?

      1. sanmigueelbeer
        Happy

        Re: Sensible suggestion

        It would be nice to know why there are so many downvotes to my post.

        Because you are not an American who is criticizing an American policy?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Sensible suggestion

          Because you are not an American who is criticizing an American policy?

          Since when is being a US citizen a prequisite for criticizing a US policy?

          After all, US policies do affect people worldwide, and not always in a positive way. Furthermore, for many decades the US has been styling itself as "the leader of the free world", the shining beacon of freedom, and the model for everybody to emulate. Any time it fails to live up to this impossible standard - which happens depressingly often these days - criticism is both expected and healthy.

    4. devTrail

      Re: Sensible suggestion

      It's just a comedy. Denmark is selling to the corporations Greenland mining rights and to fool the Greenlanders they put on a Trump show and pose as if the Danish government really cared for them.

  6. ThatOne Silver badge
    Devil

    Predators and poultry houses

    > to officially empower carriers to block robocalls

    Great! What's next? Empowering drug dealers to prevent drug traffic?

  7. Jamie Jones Silver badge
    Coat

    Comstock

    I wonder if Comstock has cast his stock in comcast?

  8. SulaFox

    So a company steeling internet got caught only cause the radar. Thats a bit disheartening to....! What did U learn today Billy, Dont screw up the scam You'll get caught.....

  9. bombastic bob Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Robocalls threaten the integrity of that open public telephone network.

    Actually, it's FAR worse than that: Robocalls make having a telephone a COMPLETE NUISANCE.

    As such my cell phone is OFF unless I'm calling someone else, _AND_ my land line's ringer is OFF. The answering machine picks up with a LECTURE aimed at robocallers. People who know me know why, and know I'll pick up if I can identify their voices through the announcement, or in the message itself.

    And it hasn't been as bad lately as it was, 2-3 unwanted calls PER DAY for a while. Now it's down to about every other day, but STILL way more often than it SHOULD be...

    (and it seems most of them are in non-english languages, go fig, usually Spanish or Chinese)

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Robocalls threaten the integrity of that open public telephone network.

      I don't have a landline. Over here in a currently civilised but soon to be ripped-to-bits country mobile phones are cheaper than landlines and have reasonably good caller ID and built-in blocking.

      The handsets can be pricey, but you don't necessarily need the latest

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I like landlines phones

        1) When I'm at home, I can't be bothered to go around with a mobile phone. The house is large enough I may not hear it ringing from everywhere. It's cheap now to have some landlines phones around. (yes, I'm not addicted to messaging apps).

        2) A landline means a "house number" - if I need to talk to someone there I can simply call that number.

        3) Some less tracking - and especially not personal tracking (for now).

        4) Landline phones don't need batteries (it's going to change, with VoIP)

        5) Everybody can make a quick emergency call - even children without a mobe.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I like landlines phones

          A small point - today's landlines need mains power. Even in the day when you could still easily get landline phone units with backup batteries, their autonomy wasn't much over a few hours.

          Also, I personally can't hear the landline (we have 4 stations) in the garage, the shed or much of the garden.

    2. sanmigueelbeer

      Re: Robocalls threaten the integrity of that open public telephone network.

      Robocalls make having a telephone a COMPLETE NUISANCE.

      I have an Asterisk at home with four (4) DID: One to the US, one to NZ and two locals.

      I used to get one scam call a week but since I've got Lenny turned on, I hardly get any of the nuisance calls.

      Do Not Call List did not really help because the scam callers were coming from overseas. DNCL also didn't help because I was getting nuisance calls from political parties.

      Personally, I would really like to nominate Lenny as the Chief Commissioner for Scam Calls (CCSC).

  10. NicX

    Eh. Perhaps hiring someone with a technical background rather than a lawyer to lead the FCC might help things along.

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