back to article 14 sailors die aboard Russian cable spy, er, ocean research nuke sub after fire breaks out

A Russian submarine, believed to be tasked with spying on foreign communications, has lost 14 crew members after a blaze broke out aboard the nuclear-powered vessel. Moscow says, via state news agencies, that the sub Losharik suffered a fire that created toxic fumes resulting in the death of the crew members. According to a …

  1. defiler

    Poor sods

    Two things you don't want in a sub - fire and water. Whatever their mission, the sailors didn't deserve that. Hopefully any injured crew heal up okay.

    1. arctic_haze

      Re: Poor sods

      Fire water and radioactive fumes.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This must be the first time a research sub has done a live fire test. Hopefully it will be the last.

  3. earl grey
    Unhappy

    I don't wish this on anyone.

    'Nuf said. My condolences to their families.

    1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: I don't wish this on anyone.

      Who the fuck would downvote this? Out yourselves.

      1. stiine Silver badge

        Re: I don't wish this on anyone.

        I wasn't one of them, but you must not have an ex-wife.

        1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: I don't wish this on anyone.

          Well, touche'.

  4. Winkypop Silver badge

    Nightmarish stuff

    I'd struggle being in a submarine in dry dock.

    1. Old Used Programmer

      Re: Nightmarish stuff

      U-505 at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. It's on land on concrete supports. Definitely worth the tour if you ever have the chance.

      1. jgarbo

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        No thanks. I've seen Das Boot. My submarining days are over.

      2. Winkypop Silver badge

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        Good tip, thanks.

        Now Chicago, that's miles from the sea right?

        (Joke)

        1. Balding Greybeard

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          My father was an areal photographer stationed at Glenview Naval Air Station just north of Chicago. He was tasked with documenting the subs arrival and display at the MSI.

          The museum sits about 500m from the Lake Michigan shore. They floated the sub through the St. Lawrence Seaway and thru the Great Lakes to get to Chicago. Once at the museum, it was a matter of “rolling the boat” to its resting place. Total moving bill, $250K.

          Interesting short story about the boat’s capture, discovery of crypto stuff, and subterfuge at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-505

      3. GlenP Silver badge

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        U-505 at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry.

        Closer to home, for the Brits, HMS Alliance at the Submarine Museum in Gosport is also worth a tour if only to see just how cramped these vessels were.

        1. 's water music

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          how cramped these vessels were

          Vanguards were plenty cramped enough, even before they are fully fitted out

        2. What? Me worry?

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          Two additional options for those interested

          USS Blueback at OMSI in Portland, OR. https://omsi.edu/submarine (they offer sleepovers onboard) and

          U3 at Tekniska Museet in Malmö, Sweden https://malmo.se/Uppleva-och-gora/Besoksmal/Malmo-Museer/Aktuella-utstallningar/Teknikens-och-Sjofartens-hus/Ubaten-U3.html (museum closed until September though) or http://www.u3.se/SEFolder/SEHome.aspx with info in english.

          1. MacroRodent

            Re: Nightmarish stuff

            In Helsinki, you can see the "Vesikko" at the Suomenlinna sea fortress. It is mounted on the seaside and visitors enter through doors cut to its side (which obviously did not exist originally).

            https://www.suomenlinna.fi/en/visitor/museums/vesikko/

            1. Red Ted
              Go

              Re: Nightmarish stuff

              Ah yes, the "Vesikko" from the fleet of Finnish submarines...

              They had a grand total of two, which apparently allows you to call them a fleet!

              1. MacroRodent

                Re: Nightmarish stuff

                Actually, the Finnish Navy had 5 submarines at the start of WW2. Still not a big fleet, but the area they needed to operate in was not too large either (look at a map).

                1. Red Ted

                  Re: Nightmarish stuff

                  In my defence, I was told that by a Finn, that I consider a friend, whilst standing next to the Vesikko. I suspect it is a sort of cultural self depreciation.

          2. Mooseman Silver badge

            Re: Nightmarish stuff

            U995 at Kiel is on my way to Denmark this summer :)

            1. faultythinking

              Re: Nightmarish stuff

              U995 is right next to the Laboe Naval Memorial; I would recommend visiting that as part of your trip too. An excellent collection of naval models, as well as the actual memorial itself.

          3. Terje

            Re: Nightmarish stuff

            There's also a submarine in Gothenburg Sweden for those interested.

            https://www.maritiman.se/en/fleet/submarine-nordkaparen

            1. Gordon 10

              Re: Nightmarish stuff

              Dont forget the Uboat pens at St Nazare. With walkon Uboat obvs.

        3. hammarbtyp

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          There are even worse in operation because pretty much every usable space is filled with spares and supplies.

          Had a tour round an Oberon class boat in the 90's and the most sobering moment was being shown the emergency escape hatch, which was basically a vessel big enough for one man, where the idea was you got in, water filled up, you opened the hatch and then escaped remembering to close the hatch as you go. We were informed that if we were onboard as civilians we would be last to go, since if anyone panicked you basically blocked the escape route for the rest of the crew.

          Don't think I would last 10 minutes on one

        4. hammarbtyp

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          There is also U-534 at the the Mersey Ferry Terminal

        5. Muscleguy

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          There's quite a number of rusting nuclear subs, all with intact reactors, some with fuel still inside the reactor quietly rotting at Rosyth. Just across the Firth of Forth from Edinburgh. You might have some trouble if you wish to tour them though.

          If we get the chance to vote in another Indyref they might come closer to you as many of us up here resent being used as a nuclear graveyard and want them moved. If they are safe enough for near our capital city and right under vital transport links then they are safe enough for the Thames estuary.

          BTW we know how to scrap these things, the Russians and Americans have done several. John Bull is till trying to figure it out because it doesn't want to stump for the necessary cash or find a site because the sub has to lifted out of the water and cut into pieces to allow proper access to the nasty stuff. This would have to be in a covered space as well to contain any, accidents.

          Anywhere in England want to volunteer to host this? Form an orderly queue before Whitehall imposes it on you as it imposed it on us. First there was one, then there more, and more. They are all there from the very first one on. The MoD has not decommissioned a single nuclear sub.

      4. Uncle Slacky Silver badge

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        There (is/was) also the Skorpion, moored alongside the Queen Mary at Long Beach. Unfortunately it looks like it's been neglected for some time and is now closed to tours.

        1. drewsup

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          USS Albacore in Portsmouth NH, easy to get to, self guided tour, you can touch anything on the boat.

      5. Robert Sneddon

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        There's also the Akishio, a 1980s-era Japanese diesel-electric sub which is in the car park of the JMSDF museum in Kure, not far from Hiroshima. It's open to the public and, unusually for Japanese museums and such, it's free entry.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JMSDF_Kure_Museum

        When I was there once it started raining so I went under the nearest shelter which just happened to be the bow of the sub. It only struck me later how strange a place it was to stay dry...

        1. lglethal Silver badge

          Re: Nightmarish stuff

          HMAS Otway in the town of Holbrook, Aus is one of the stranger sites you'll see. The submarine is now a playground. Oh and Holbrook is a good 5-6 hour drive from any ocean, making it even stranger...

      6. Locomotion69

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        For those on the continent: Submarine "Tonijn" is on display at the navy museum in Den Helder, Netherlands.

        https://www.marinemuseum.nl/en/

      7. Cederic Silver badge

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        To add to the list, HMAS Onslow in Sydney.

        Just getting in and out as an overweight man with non-functional knees was severely painful, even with the 'general members of the public' support structures in place. Oddly I was more mobile inside the thing.

      8. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        I've managed to miss out on the subs in Blighty, but seen U505 in Chicago. And the people who say those things are cramped aren't joking. They've cut an entrance in the rear of the sub, and you walk though it, out of another in tthe forward torpedo compartment - which saves getting the visitors up and andow ladders. But even there, I couldn't walk between the two diesels without turning slightly sideways, becuase my shoulders wouldn't fit. I'm not a small man, or averse to a pie and a pint, but I'm not stupidly big or anything - and my shoulders aren't that broad.

        It made me think of those scenes in Das Boot where they're trying to run the diesels in bad weather. And how absolutely hellish it must have been in the engine room. The book makes it even clearer, how hot, noisy and fume-filled it was. And you've got the valves, some of them opening into the very narrow gangway between the engines - leaving even less room - and I walked it with engines off and the thing not moving in an Atlantic gale.

        Being on a WWII sub was no picnic and maybe the only thing worse than being stuck in that engine room would be standing bridge watches in bad weather, where you never get a chance to get your clothes dry, before you're up there again.

        If you've not watched it, the film is brilliant - especially since they digitally remastered it and got the rest of the original actors to dub their own voices - so you can watch in english if you can't be arsed to read the subtitles. I bought the film and the mini-series for some reason... Oh and the director's commentary is unusually excellent - and the book is also well worth a read.

    2. I3N
      Boffin

      Re: Nightmarish stuff

      The struggle in dry dock is having to climb all those stairs just to get to the deck.

    3. rg287

      Re: Nightmarish stuff

      I don't really get claustrophobic, but going through the USS Growler at the Intrepid dock in New York was more than enough to convince me that life as a submariner will never be for me.

      1. jelabarre59

        Re: Nightmarish stuff

        A friend of ours was doing some of the restoration work on the Growler. They'd work on it after-hours, but in case they weren't quite finished before tours started, they'd dress in period coveralls and stand still like part of the exhibit when a tour passed through. Occasionally startling tourists in case someone decided to poke at the "mannequins".

  5. Claverhouse Silver badge

    What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

    An awful tragedy.

    While Russia maintains that the Losharik is a submersible research vessel that carries out scientific work for its navy in the Arctic, Uncle Sam believes the sub is really charged with carrying out covert deep-sea missions for Moscow. In particular, it is believed that the extreme deep-sea capabilities of the sub could allow it to sever or tamper with undersea cables.

    Hopefully this prissy tone indicates this is spying the Americans will never do. Let alone injuring other people's cables.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

      If I had to chose between Russians or Americans spying, I'd chose the latter.

      We all know Trump's shelf life is 6 years max.

      Putin on the other hand is happy to make and break rules to cling on to power...something similar has happened in China...heck the UK Conservative party tried to change the rules because they didn't like our elected leader.

      Lets hope Trump lets go when his time is officially up.

      1. Chris G

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        "Lets hope Trump will let go when his time is officially up."

        I dunno, I think he would look quite good in an orange pseudo military dictator's uniform.

        Shortly before he has to change it for orange overalls and an hour in the exercise yard each day.

      2. MonkeyCee

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        The key benefit of democracy is the orderly transition of power. All the representation of the people is nice too, but the main thing is avoiding a potential civil war each time power changes hands.

        Autocrats tend to cull or exile anyone who could potentially rival them. So when they fall, there is not a natural succession.

        Not a fan of Putin, but I do wish him a long life. Since when he does pass, it's going to be interesting times.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        Careful, your tin-foil hat is showing. And you sound like all those loons who were fear mongering about Obama not leaving office.

        And if you were honest, you'd have to admit that Trump has been far less dictatorial and authoritarian than Obama - no spying on and hacking of journalists for a start, and as far as we know hasn't yet started spying on the Democrat 2020 presidential campaigners.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        Two terms as POTUS is 8 years - if Trump is reelected in 2020 he will serve until January 2025 (election is in November 2020, term starts Jan 2021, and officially ends January 2025) Same way that Obama was elected November 2008, started as POTUS 2009, reelected 2012, and served until January 2017 when Trump took over. There's a relatively long (compared to the transfer of power in other countries) between the election being decided and the actual swearing in.

        Just FWIW

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        'We all know Trump's shelf life is 6 years max.'

        Judging by his colour, his shelf life will be similar to that of a Twinkie.

      6. Kabukiwookie

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        We all know Trump's shelf life is 6 years max.

        Putin on the other hand is happy to make and break rules to cling on to power

        Sure. And you can see a huge change if foreign policy every time a different POTUS comes into office.

        Oh wait...

    2. phuzz Silver badge
      Pirate

      Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

      "Hopefully this prissy tone indicates this is spying the Americans will never do."

      I can only assume you're being sarcastic here.

      Just don't ask about Operation Ivy Bells, or what the USS Jimmy Carter is designed to do...

      1. Psmo

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        I can only assume you're being sarcastic here

        I'd say someone owes me a new sarcasm metre, mine just lost its magic smoke.

    3. TRT Silver badge

      Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

      Overt surveillance.

      1. Reg Reader 1

        Re: What Would The Opposite Of 'Covert Spying' Be ?

        That's what social media is for.

  6. Mystic Megabyte
    Flame

    Toxic

    The boats that I work on have Russian made fire suppression systems. The good news is that if it is triggered by accident the powder is non-toxic. However, after a real fire then you definitely don't want to go into the engine room without being suited and having breathing equipment. (which I don't have!)

  7. Tigra 07
    Pint

    Out of interest...

    How would a submersible like this sever an undersea cable?

    I'm picturing a submarine with a robo/crane-like arm attached...Or would they just torpedo the cable? Use divers from the Submarine? Summon the Kraken?

    1. Red Ted

      Re: Out of interest...

      They are not wanting to break the cable (which would just piss everyone off), but intercepting the signals passing through them, preferably without the user of the cable knowing.

      1. Tigra 07

        Re: Out of interest...

        "They are not wanting to break the cable (which would just piss everyone off), but intercepting the signals passing through them, preferably without the user of the cable knowing."

        Ah. I've heard before speculation from a source, that i don't quite recall, about the Americans or Russians wanting the ability to cut entire nations off from the internet in wartime. That's where that came from.

    2. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: Out of interest...

      In the 1970's they used divers to install a tap, but who knows how it's done these days. Check out 'Operation Ivy Bells' for more information about how it used to be done in the cold war.

    3. NomadUK

      Re: Out of interest...

      This book came out in 1998 and is brilliant. I used to work with a fellow who was a submariner and strongly hinted that he was involved in some of these things but, of course, could not actually talk about it.

      So, yes, the idea that the Russians are somehow unique in their desire to tap undersea cables is — to put it mildly — disingenuous.

  8. Ramlen

    "Earlier today America's Vice President Mike Pence cancelled a scheduled trip to return to Washington, DC, but so far there has been no confirmation that the move was in response to the Losharik disaster"

    I don't understand the link here

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      He cancelled a meeting at no notice and with no details - for an unexpected meeting at the White House. I've read speculation about it somewhere else, who tentatively linked it to this despite his spokesman later coming out and saying it wans't health or national security related. I guess it's the usual thing in politics, they're all massively nosy, and like nothing better than a good old gossip.

      I think that's another reason they call politics "showbusiness for ugly people."

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

  9. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

    Really nuclear powered?

    I'm surprised to read this thing is nuclear powered. If it's really only got a crew of 24 - that doesn't leave many to manage the tea-kettle, given that someone's got to drive the thing. Or is that why it's a submersible - because there's not the space to have more than one watch, so you can't run it 24 hours a day?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Really nuclear powered?

      Yes really. Russinas invested heavily in automation of their subs during the cold war and subsequent years. Their crews are significantly less in number than US/UK for the same size nuclear boat. They also build them very strong for deep operation and surviving external attack. Anon because day job...

    2. teknopaul

      Re: Really nuclear powered?

      NASA manage to trundle nuclear cars around Mars with no one on board.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Really nuclear powered?

        teknopaul,

        That's using an RTG - which is basically using the decay heat of a radiation source to generate electricity via thermocouples. It's got no moving parts and needs no maintenance. But only puts out a limited amount of power. I don't think we're even talking kW - so not even close to enough power to run a subamarine.

        For that you need a full-fat nuclear reactor. That does have many moving parts, and requires a permanent watch to look after it whenever it's switched on. And normally turning them on and off again takes quite a lot of time, and an awful lot of checking. And you probably have to fill in a few forms as well...

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So many down votes

    on some many good responses.

    Reckon Putin reads El Reg?

  11. Starace

    Fire in a sub is never good

    The thing is that kit for use in submarines usually assumed all sorts of nasty conditions could happen as an expected survivable event (blast, shock, fire, flood) and one requirement was always to use materials that weren't fire hazardous - Type 99M wiring for example. Of course Russian research subs may use other standards plus people like putting all sorts of non compliant kit on board.

    That said it doesn't take much to kill you when you're locked in a metal tube underwater and there are lots of examples of how nasty it can get. The chemical explosion and flash fire that finished the surviving crew of the Kursk (quite a long time after the sinking) was a particularly nasty one; some were blasted and burned by acid and the ones that survived by ducking underwater didn't last much longer as the fire took all the oxygen.

  12. Bloodbeastterror

    Suspension of comedy headline?

    Maybe it's just me, but given the substance of this horrific incident is the use of the Register's comedic headline style not totally out of place here?

  13. earl grey
    Thumb Up

    USS Cod

    Memorial and tours available in Cleveland Ohio.

  14. fredesmite

    14 less commies

    we have to kill later

    1. John R. Macdonald

      Re: 14 less commies

      Russia gave up on communism in 1991. Do try to keep up.

    2. Intractable Potsherd

      Re: 14 less commies

      Whether that is a bad joke or not, it is far too early for it.

      [Leaving aside the fact that Russia is about as communist as Florida these days]

  15. MonsieurTM

    How horrific... My thiughts go to those that gave their lives and their families...

    Not like the good ole USofA hasn't been sniffing underwear cables itself...

    1. Intractable Potsherd

      "underwear cables" = knicker elastic? Do you really need submarines for sniffing it?

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