back to article IBM bid to unmask age discrimination whistleblower goes down in flames

The judge hearing an age discrimination claim against IBM in Texas on Wednesday issued a withering denial of the company's motion to unmask the source of internal documents at the center of plaintiff Jonathan Langley's case. Langley, who served as worldwide program director and sales lead of IBM's Bluemix cloud service, was …

  1. Alister
    Thumb Up

    Yay, go Judge Austin

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      A man with real cohones and also some good old common sense.

      I don't know if all of his cases are held this way but it is good to see that there is still some people left in this world that are not swayed by corporate "persuasion".

      1. Sgt_Oddball

        Behaviour like this..

        Tends to get judges replaced on these things. Though it does depend on the country...

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. holmegm

            Re: Behaviour like this..

            Why bring him into this? Has he commented on it at all?

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. David 132 Silver badge

        Upvoted. Although I have to point out that it’s spelled “cojones”.

        A rare setback for IBM’s lawyers, aka the Nazgul. I wonder if affirmative-action, youth-oriented hiring policies that prioritize being “woke” over being “talented” are working their magic there too?

        1. thepaintsaint

          Ageism works both ways, though. So few boomers are leaving the job market, that oftentimes it's really difficult for college grads to find decent work. While forcing out people shortly before retirement is a shitty thing to do, having efforts to hire "young blood" is reasonable.

          1. Drew Scriver

            Reasonable - maybe. Illegal (if age is the deciding factor and not a job requirement) - absolutely.

            Don't know how it's done in the UK, but including anything in an application that could be grounds for prohibited discrimination will get that application deleted faster than you can click "Send".

            That includes date of birth, gender, age, photos, and the like. Nowadays employers could theoretically obtain such information from social media, but it is still illegal to base hiring decisions on it.

          2. Alan Brown Silver badge

            "While forcing out people shortly before retirement is a shitty thing to do"

            In the old days forcing people out was early retirement and they still got pensions.

            These days it's being done to AVOID paying out pensions, so it's seriously shitty.

  2. ExampleOne

    The company, he wrote, "regularly runs commercials touting its 'Watson' AI technology, which also has the ability to process immense amounts of data. Surely, IBM has the ability to locate the originals, drafts, and original authors of the 'leaked' slides and reports – assuming it has not already done so."

    Tread very carefully how you argue with that, aren't there rules governing truth in advertising?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Devil

      > [ ... ] aren't there rules governing truth in advertising?

      Yes, there are: Truth is optional and best avoided.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Surely, IBM has the ability to locate the originals, drafts, and original authors of the 'leaked' slides and reports – assuming it has not already done so.

      That would require people who know how to run the systems and make the queries. Who are likely the people being "resourced".

      If the "W3" intranet is any clue of IBM's ability to mine it's *OWN* internal data, there's no hope for them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        anyone within IBM running such searches and retrieving said documents would become "whistleblowers" in the eyes of IBM, wouldn't they? No wonder even Watson isn't finding them - "Dave, what are you....Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do....."

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "If the "W3" intranet is any clue of IBM's ability to mine it's *OWN* internal data, there's no hope for them."

        As an ex-employee booted at at age 64, I can attest to the uselessness of IBM's own search mechanisms. Not actually sorry they got rid of me however: it had become a most unpleasant place to work.

  3. Trollslayer
    Thumb Up

    A switched on judge

    "What's more, the judge is incredulous that IBM needs the identity of the leaker to find out about its own documents. In footnote, he observed that if any company is capable of searching documents, it's IBM."

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I’d like to see some disclosure of the average age of IBM’s lawyers and HR too. Do they think they’ll never age?

    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

      The lawyers will be too rich to care long before they get the push.

      HR - not usually the sharpest spanners in the toolbox.

      1. Chris G

        @welly boot

        Most HR types are double ended spanners, twisting a different sized nut at each end.

        HR may be able to tell you your rights as an employee but not before they have told the employer what their rights are.

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          "HR may be able to tell you your rights as an employee"

          HR's job isn't to tell your your rights as an employee - or even to protect your rights as an employee

          If you believe that they are then you have some learning to do. HR's function is to limit the company's legal exposure. Everything else is window dressing.

    2. Jemma

      Of course we don't age...

      Wolfram & Hart - we really *are* vampires.

      Or

      LV426 - they got away with it; so can you!

      I can so see Apple being a valued customer too.

      "Crapple keyboards? Talk to the Hellmouth"

    3. Mark 85

      Add to that senior and upper middle manglement.

    4. a pressbutton

      They do not age

      But they have a rather odd team portrait somewhere in the file storage.

  5. chivo243 Silver badge
    FAIL

    IBM

    I Be Mostly looking for my ass with both hands...

    if a company can't find its own HR documents, they should be broken up to the point that they can find their ass with both hands.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: IBM

      The definition I got when I was onboarding with them as a contractor was:

      IBM -- I'm By Myself

      which seemed appropriate when you were trying to track down who to talk to when trying to get anything done.

  6. DCFusor
    Headmaster

    Finding the docs isn't the real issue

    The Judge "got it" though - they want to find the leak - they're not disputing the authenticity of it. They know d*mn well who wrote the stuff and at whose direction.

    As the judge said - they want to plug the leak. Surely no one here thinks you have to have written something - particularly something that was a message to many - to leak it?

    As with other cases worldwide, we want to shoot the messenger (Assange? DNC? Others?) rather than discuss that it was the content not created by the leaker, that's the problem.

  7. Nick Kew
    Coat

    I wonder ...

    if any company is capable of searching documents, it's IBM. ... Watson' AI technology ...

    Whatever happened to Autonomy?

    1. DavCrav

      Re: I wonder ...

      "Whatever happened to Autonomy?"

      That was HP. The other slowly dying megalithic US technology company.

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: I wonder ...

        Autonomy is now part of Micro Focus, as part of HPE's software spin-off. I don't know much about how the former-Autonomy products are doing, but I think IDOL is the main one (or is that from some other portfolio?), and there are a couple of big IDOL sales called out in the most recent "annual" report. (That report is actually for 18 months, due to the change in financial year after the merger.)

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    True though - IBM employees are a bit dated. I mean some of them even have mainframe experience and have used AIX! ;-)

    1. Jemma

      Yeah..

      They're quite familiar with aix & pains apparently - it's why they're trying to sack them...

      1. timrowledge

        Re: Yeah..

        In the far distant past when I was an IBM research Fellow, I tried to persuade them to name the workstation window system ‘panes’ purely for the joy of having aix and panes. Didn’t work :-(

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Yeah..

          Man, that would have been such a good name for the Cambridge Window Manager (created by IBM ACIS in Cambridge, MA), since it provided a non-overlapping "paned" layout.

          Of course CWM was used primarily at ACIS itself and by some Project Athena users, who were probably running AOS (the BSD port) if they were using a PC RT at all. I'm guessing CWM was rarely run under any of the AIX versions.

      2. rnturn

        Re: Yeah..

        > it's why they're trying to sack them...

        That would also explain the number of job adverts I see describing a mix of AIX and obviously newer technologies. Customers are engaged in migration projects to get the heck off of AIX.

  9. smoked_2na

    With all the bureaucracy that is IBM, it's still a surprise how much money they make. Hope IBM losses big time on this one trying to push around the little guy.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Unless something drastically changed since IBM "retired" me in 2016 most presentations and documents could be stored in internal cloud data repositories or intranet web based team rooms with controlled access based on author provided security levels.

    Datamining these repositories with the internal IBM search engine usually came up with mind boggling results that had very little to do with what you were looking for.

    It was also not uncommon for internal websites to disappear after a year or two when management pulled the trigger on various reorgs.

    IBM attorneys would often request assistance from IBM subject matter experts to retrieve data for use in legal actions.

    Many of these subject matter experts are long gone due to IBM "resource actions".

    1. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge

      Irrelevant

      In the US court system, citing your own organizations incompetence isn't going to get you anything.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Indeed. At one former employer, at least one member of the IT group--and occasionally two--were dedicated to combing through the company's ocean of disk space and tape backups extracting data needed for the discovery phase of the numerous lawsuits that were in play at any given time.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Many of these subject matter experts are long gone due to IBM "resource actions".

      LOL, at the irony. IBM need the old fogies who know the system just to be able to find where the documents are to justify/defend getting rid of the old fogies :-)

  11. James Anderson

    Rookie Mistake

    You don't put a slick well healed New York lawyer in front of a down home Texas judge.

    1. Hollerithevo

      Re: Rookie Mistake

      Well-heeled.

    2. David 132 Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Rookie Mistake

      “Did you say ‘yoots’?”

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There's a very simple reason IBM can't find it.

    Lotus Notes.

    1. Vector
      Thumb Up

      Re: There's a very simple reason IBM can't find it.

      Wish I could upvote more

    2. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

      Re: There's a very simple reason IBM can't find it.

      Bloated Goats are too bloated at this point to do anything useful :)

      IIRC IBM released something called BloodHound at one stage, which was something out of this world, especially when searching for documents etc. It was shelved and is all but forgotten by now.

    3. TheVogon

      Re: There's a very simple reason IBM can't find it.

      "Lotus Notes."

      IBM still uses Lotus Notes? I thought that crud died about 2 decades ago.

  13. IGnatius T Foobar !

    India Business Machines?

    Didn't they used to be some sort of 20th century technology company, before they laid off everyone with a brain and became an offshore outsourcing company?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: India Business Machines?

      They were a 20th century technology company that much like the rest of the large tech companies gave up on technology to become a financial vehicle for “investors *” interested only in the next quarter earnings and no interest in anything beyond that.

      * they’re not really investors because buying 2nd hand shares in an existing company isn’t investing, it’s just servicing debt that the company got into when they first went public.

  14. This post has been deleted by its author

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How to turn the Titanic?

    OK, this is anon for obvious reasons...

    First off, I am not defending their practices here. That being said....

    Having some inside knowledge of IBM workings, one of their main problems isn't so much the age of their workforce as it is the older workforce, especially the sales force, is very set in the "IBM way" -- the obnoxious, pushy, overselling approach that has gotten them most of their bad reputation over the years. There's an effort underway to adapt IBM into a different kind of company, but these people keep getting in the way and in many cases actively undermine the new efforts. This is all amplified by the fact that younger people don't want to work there any more due to said reptuation, and it all has the effect of concentrating the business-undesireable (NOT age-undesireable, it's a mentality problem, not an age problem) employees and making the problem hundreds of times worse.

    So how do you get rid of those people that are mainly older, stubborn, dyed-in-the wool dinosaurs actively killing your business and reputation without inviting a lawsuit like this? For starters I imagine not circulating illegal documents would help, but even setting hiring and firing criteria as "not the old IBM way" would invite an age discrimination lawsuit regardless based on appearances?

    I note Google and similar Sillycon Valley megacorps have the opposite problem, not enough old blood. Somehow they've managed to keep themselves from getting sued though, despite pretty obviously being guilty of age discrimination the other direction.

    I'd wager there's more to this story, possibly involving the infernal "good old boys club" of car salesmen that IBM was nurturing for decades looking out after itself. That might include HR and their legal team in this case, I have no idea. It's almost at the point where a breakup might be a good thing, except for one thing: the new megacorps in Silicon Valley would then eat the pieces, then well and truly put everyone over the age of 40 out of work. I also shudder to think of what a hostile Microsoft or Google armed with some of the IBM copyrights and patents would do to make the world absolute hell on earth. We all might be going back to punchcards or have no choice but to sign up to "willingly" feed Microsoft our personal data and train Google's AI forever if they get control of copyrights of things like the POSIX API or the C++ stuff (see Google vs. Oracle).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How to turn the Titanic?

      Don't just break up one - i. e., IBM, break up all the conglomerates, and outlaw mergers and acquisitions. It's economic market competition that's been stomped out with such devices, and needs to be restored. That's heroic and gargantuan I know, but the alternative is being eventually taken over by the government, one way or another, as they become too big and powerful to tolerate, and that would be an even worse outcome.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How to turn the Titanic?

      "First off, I am not defending their practices here. That being said...."

      There are legitimate ways of dealing with people who cause problems. However, preferring inexperience to experience isn't one of them. Deliberately turning someone down for a job on the grounds that they are only looking to take on new graduates rather than those with relevant techincal experience, as happened to me at IBM, is one of the reasons they turn out fancy **** which doesn't work.

    3. James Anderson

      Re: How to turn the Titanic?

      Politely disagree.

      IBM under Thomas J Watson was a scrupulously ethical company to the point of boredom. As well as investing in people and research its third business strategy was to nurture long term relationships with its customers based on trust, making sure the products were appropriate and worked correctly. This included sucking up the loss if they got it wrong.

      Somewhere in all the mis-managed takeovers and mergers (Here's looking at you PWC) this culture was lost and the total focus was on the next quarters revenues (not even profits!), and, screwing the customers became the norm.

      Now that this strategy has failed the new strategy seems to be screw the employees.

  16. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Deep Blue

    Deep Throat at IBM?

    Watch out! Ginny the Chopper is after you -->

  17. Paul Anderson 2

    Class action unless the judge is replaced

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