back to article Frustrated by reboot-happy Windows 10? Creators Update hopes to take away the pain

If you're fed up with Windows 10 downloading updates, installing them, and rebooting at awkward times all by itself, you're not alone. Reg readers have been complaining ever since Microsoft tweaked its operating system in August: that change, introduced in the Anniversary Update, instructed the software to apply patches …

  1. AMBxx Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Holding post

    For all the Linux bores, just downvote this, then reply. Makes it easier to read the other, relevant comments.

    1. hplasm
      Gimp

      Re: Holding post

      Makes it easier to read the other, irrelevant comments.

      FTFY.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Holding post

      'Holding post' is quite apt,

      Considering Microsoft can't even issue patch updates for Windows 10, because the Clunky Windows Update can of worms, is exactly that, a can of worms of Patch over 'retracted Patch' dependencies that no MS employee no one can fathom.

      Creators Edition? There is no other OS product that has done more to stifle my own creativity/time, faffing with failed drivers, quirks, failed updates, activation issues. This list is fcuking endless.

      How much time have intelligent people on this forum alone, wasted just trying to get Windows update to function, for a new install of Windows 7 SP1, and figure out the workaround to kick start it into action - the endless hours upon hours - 'Checking for Updates', hey Microsoft?

      1. David Woodhead

        Re: Holding post

        Re new Windows 7 SP1 installation:

        1 Install W7 without any internet connection enabled

        2 Set the Windows Update option to 'Never download automatically'

        3 Install the following updates manually, in this order (download them on another PC)

        • KB3020369

        • KB3177467

        • KB3172605

        • KB3207752

        4 Connect to the internet

        5 Search for updates - shouldn't take more than 10 minutes

        6 Give thanks to http://wu.krelay.de/en/ from whom this advice springs

        Have a nice day.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Holding post

      I like penguins.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Holding post

        and I like Nougat with some Mint cinnamon. I also like Pigeons.

    4. Old Handle
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Holding post

      How will down-voting this post before we reply make relevant comments easier to read?

  2. DanceMan

    Fake Linux

    Why run a fake copy when I can run the real thing?

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: Fake Linux

      I dunno, what's a real Linux, really?

      1. richardcox13

        Re: Fake Linux

        > I dunno, what's a real Linux, really?

        Oh no, not another another distribution!

      2. Chemical Bob
        Linux

        Re: Fake Linux

        "I dunno, what's a real Linux, really?"

        Yggdrasil

    2. joeldillon

      Re: Fake Linux

      Technically, it's real GNU/Windows ;)

  3. bazza Silver badge

    I'm confused.

    I was told one of the supposed benefits of win 10 was that updates meant less rebooting. Seems not to be the case. Glad I stayed on 7...

    MS are being pretty disingenuous I think. The article quotes some MS flunky who seems to be trying to describe the upcoming change as somehow overturning centuries of accepted practice, instead of addressing a terrible cock up introduced last autumn. Which is bollocks; MS screwed it up and is now trying to find a way forward that still results in updated being installed behind the user's back. If they actually addressed the core issue, that updates need a reboot, then none of this world be a problem.

    When of when will they learn to listen again to their users instead of their marketing 'experts', advertising executives and UI theoreticians?

    1. AndyS

      > "We also heard that unexpected reboots are disruptive if they happen at the wrong time."

      Oh, really? So after 30 odd years of OS development, you hadn't figured out that randomly rebooting a computer without warning or user interaction counts as a BAD thing?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Joke

        "you hadn't figured out that randomly rebooting a computer"

        Once they had BSOD to randomly reboot computers, now they got rarer so they need something new - why do you believe that dialog is blue?

      2. Dazed and Confused

        Re: BAD thing?

        In one of my cases it was a nearly a really bad thing.

        It seems able to reboot a suspended laptop. I'd left my closed suspend laptop on the spare bed. I came back the next morning to find it was running and the laptop was red hot, the bottom was way too hot to touch. The stupid update shit had rebooted the laptop only it's got disk encryption (so the updates keep failing but still reboot) while the laptop is sitting at the screen waiting to be unlocked it doesn't timeout and the OS features for throttling back the power don't kick in. So it was heating up. Leaving it on a bed meant the vents were blocked. Hopefully the FW would have switched off before the thing caught fire.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Windows

      @bazza

      "MS screwed it up and is now trying to find a way forward that still results in updated being installed behind the user's back."

      Well, one small advantage: all of this is made available free of charge. Which may sound logical, but don't underestimate the kind of idiocy which Microsoft can provide. Visual Studio? They even once ruined the whole interface in a commercial version, (its license costs around E 800,-), somewhat patched it and in the next release revoked the whole thing and started spouting off how much they listened to their customers. ... of course while still requiring another E 800,- for a new Visual Studio license.

      I honestly think that some of Microsofts products are actually quite good, for example I'm quite a fan of their Office series (especially all the stuff you can do with the VBA backend) and really enjoy using it. But they're really horrible when it comes to listening (and respecting!) to what their customers might want or need.

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "When of when will they learn to listen again to their users instead of their marketing 'experts', advertising executives and UI theoreticians?"

      They may have been listening to their developers explaining how difficult it is to avoid reboots given the actual OS structure.

    4. TReko

      MS Quality

      My recent experience with MS updates is that they cause more problems than they fix.

      I don't think MS is doing much quality control on them anymore.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: MS Quality

        "I don't think MS is doing much quality control on them anymore."

        Of course they do. They have a huge number of beta testers. They're called users.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: MS Quality

          "I don't think MS is doing much quality control on them anymore."

          Of course they do. They have a huge number of beta alpha testers. They're called users.

          FTFY

        2. Mark 75

          Re: MS Quality

          But this reflects recent trends in software development. "Release early, release often" is a nasty excuse to avoid thorough testing and instead only respond to problems discovered by end-users.

      2. jelabarre59

        Re: MS Quality

        I don't think MS is doing much quality control on them anymore.

        Of *course* they are. They are maintaining a tight control on quality, ensuring it doesn't get very high.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hmmm

    "Yes, I understand updates need to be installed for security reasons, but no, I don't understand why the damn thing can't wait until I approve it."

    The answer is simple, People don't reboot. It takes about an entire quarter for every device at work to be rebooted if we leave it to the end user.

    That brings other issues , when the user finally reboots and has an issue you've three months of patches to deal with as you try and diagnose the problem not one months, as well as that some other software may or may not install if the installer thinks there is a required reboot pending.

    1. AndyS

      Re: Hmmm

      Surely that's a user problem, not something an OS should be randomly rebooting to enforce?

      If this is a large corporate problem, and the PCs involved are just office desktop type machines, why not enforce a policy of turning machines off over the weekend?

      Allowing MS to do it instead, at their discretion not yours or your users', seems like a crazy way forward.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Hmmm

        If this is a large corporate problem, and the PCs involved are just office desktop type machines, why not enforce a policy of turning machines off over the weekend?

        Yes is a user problem. Desktops are not such an issue, the problem for us is its down to a culture of having to be nice to the end user (so we can't force them to reboot) , a relatively mobile workforce on laptops, and most people hibernate not shutdown.

        My point was not so much about us per se, only that given a choice users generally don't reboot.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: turning machines off over the weekend?

        Because on a large estate (>1000 desktops) you'll notice disk and PSU failures spike.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: turning machines off over the weekend?

          Laptop/desktops hardware is made for being turned off every 8 hour or so. Actually, most desktop disks are rated for 8h/day, not 24h/day (the latter are usually more expensive NAS/server disks).

          We routinely turn off our desktops (that's also my office policy - for security and energy saving reasons) every evening - and we never saw failures spikes. Nor I've seen it in my home systems which again are not left running when not needed.

          Actually, systems on when electric spikes strikes (i.e. thunderstorms) unless they are behind a good UPS, are more at risk to fail.

          There are also thermal issues in the hot season, usually AC is reduced when the offices are closed (server rooms are under a different system) - and I've seen more laptop/desktop system fails due to thermal issues (i.e. dust inside...) than because they've been turned off daily.

          It's also a way to ensure people save files and have them in the proper repositories - remote backups and patches can use wake-on-lan to turn on systems when needed. Then there are good reason to keep a system running, but in my experience it's usually an exception, not the rule.

        2. Chunes

          Re: turning machines off over the weekend?

          Why is that? I'm only semi tech-literate.

      3. Captain DaFt

        Re: Hmmm

        "Allowing MS to do it instead, at their discretion not yours or your users', seems like a crazy way forward."

        So you're saying it's crazy for the owner of an OS to do what they like with it? That's the crazy talk!

        Read the EULA sometime. It states that WIN10 is the property of Microsoft INC., and they're only letting you use, not own, it for their financial gain and all the user info they can download.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmmm

      Our VDI sessions need to be rebooted once in a while. We get a notification that it's gonna happen, and a choice to deffer it for a day, or do it now. To avoid people permanently deferring, it has a time limit. Eventually, if you ignore it enough, it'll just restart. Aware that there is no perfect solution to this, but if you accept that restarts are occasionally inevitable, then perhaps some kind of enhanced communication, followed by threat, followed by compulsion would be the best compromise.

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Hmmm

      "People don't reboot."

      One thing I've noticed on Linux is that after a kernel replacement the machine won't hibernate, it has to be shut down. Perhaps if reboots weren't built into the Windows update the same thing would happen. That would mean users would be forced to reboot but only at a natural break in their work - other than those who'd simply leave the thing running overnight.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmmm

      The answer is simple, People don't reboot.

      Wrong. People shut down (a.k.a turn off/power off) their computers when they're done.

      Idiots put them to sleep/hibernate because waiting some 30 seconds for a computer to boot to a usable state is 29.9 seconds too long.

      1. Dazed and Confused

        Re: Hmmm

        It's not the time to reboot that's the issue its the time to restart all your apps and get back to where you were that takes time.

        1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

          Re: Hmmm

          Obviously system stability isn't an issue and every application that every one of your users use is not a leaky resource hog that needs to be closed occasionally just so the user experience becomes marginally less treacle like.

  5. MrBlack

    Windows 10 reminds me of the Rick and Morty episode with the Devil, you get a free upgrade to Windows 10 now, but you pay later with it's hidden 'feature'. I have had reboots and tediously slow updates while out on customer sites, its a hateful 'feature'.

  6. lsces

    What I find even worse is having NOT had the laptop on for a few days can result in a long wait to actually be able to do anything ... as MrBlack says ... usually after you have had an emergency call to a client site and need to fix something quickly :(

    I'm glad the desktop machine here are all Linux, updates are never a problem.

  7. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Flame

    That horrible dialog box text

    Who's "we"? And why are you chatting away to me like that?

    Are people really unable to understand "Install operating system update? The computer will reboot while installing meaning you will lose unsaved work. [Now] [Ask again later] [Schedule time]"?

    I also say dialog box but of course there is none, it's just plastered across the screen and it's modal. It's as if Xerox PARC never happened.

    1. P. Lee
      Alien

      Re: That horrible dialog box text

      "We" used to be the people who sold you your OS.

      Now "we" are your IT overlords.

      BTW you aren't supposed to do stuff with your PC overnight, you are just supposed to consume content.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: That horrible dialog box text

        BTW you aren't supposed to do stuff with your PC overnight, you are just supposed to consume content.

        Well it bloody well rebooted while I was have a quick J.Arthur

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: That horrible dialog box text

        "you aren't supposed to do stuff with your PC overnight, you are just supposed to consume content."

        yeah, for those farmer-types who keep daylight hours because they LIKE it, maybe that's true. Then there are the night-owl HACKER types (like me) who do work at random times during the day and night. MY schedule is _NOT_ Micro-shaft's business, nor should they be ASSUMING and SCREWING WITH IT.

        Then again, update schedules are designed to correspond to "the least convenient time" anyway, which (as others have stated) are as likely to be "at a customer site" forcing you to WAIT to fix a high priority problem.

        Solution: do NOT use Win-10-nic. If possible, do NOT use a Micro-shaft OS.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Reboots, how passée.

    kGraft & kPatch

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    much too little, and a bit too late

    So this fixes one of the major issues, hopefully without introducing too many new ones. In another 5 years or so, we finally might have something as usable as Windows 7 was before the telemetry updates.

    Sorry, but I can't wait this long. I still have a WX computer in the office, used to run a single application (to my ever-lasting shame, powerpoint). I also still have one Windows 7 computer at home, used for gaming. Both systems will continue until they either die or go out of support. Neither will be replaced with a WX computer: at this point, I would rather take my chances with wine and a steam machine.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

    "We got an update for you". "We" who?? Really hate this kind of informal text as if "you" were friends - or worse, pushers of updates - "hey bro', got an update for you..." - and not a frigging OS.

    "Windows is a service etc. etc. " - well, if you're a service start to serve me instead of having me serve you - and avoid frigging marketdroid PR stuff inside messages!

    "We need your help"???? C'mon, stop this idiocy, return to a professional, impersonal tone...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

      Look LDS, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

        Really upset? No, it was more a joke about the language used, but I've spent endless time to teach developers how to develop professional GUI using the right tone to address users - which may not like to be addressed as you do with your friends at the pub, or your children.

        False friendliness, paternalistic tone, unneeded explanations, are never a good choice, IMHO. Yet, it shows the attitude of those behind Windows 10, and the paradigm shift in software development, and its business model.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

          "it shows the attitude of those behind Windows 10"

          And the attitude shows exactly who it is who are behind it: marketing. They're the ones with the built-in insincerity to write this crap.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

            Microsoft marketing has been fcuked up for years now. I long ago, came to that conclusion and not to expect anything else better from them.

          2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

            Have an upvote for saying this.

            They're the ones with the built-in insincerity to write this crap.

            Yes! At last, the secret is out Windows was coded by Marketters!

        2. Mark 85

          Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

          False friendliness, paternalistic tone, unneeded explanations, are never a good choice, IMHO. Yet, it shows the attitude of those behind Windows 10, and the paradigm shift in software development, and its business model.

          I think it may also have something to do with the "snowflake" culture that's being spread about. "I want a friend." "I need my hand held." "Is this a safe thing?"... etc. etc.

          The best error message I ever saw was on an in-house system used only by engineers. "Fucked up, didn't you? So reboot now and go do penance for your idiocy.". It never would have been sent out of house as too many people would take offence at: a) Some of the language, because "words hurt" and b) the implication of blame. Reality is sometimes a bitch, ya' know.

      2. The Real Tony Smith

        Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

        Take four red capsules. In 10 minutes, take two more. Help is on the way.

      3. vir

        Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

        "Look LDS, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over."

        That many downvotes? How could so many people forget? It was only 16 years ago!

        1. Rattus Rattus

          Re: "only 16 years ago"

          You mean forty ni-

          Ohhhhh...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

          >That many downvotes? How could so many people forget? It was only 16 years ago!

          I think there are quite a few who have either never heard of a HAL9000 computer* which is shocking for a tech publication (though a somewhat downmarket one) or missed the irony.

          Like the irony of your date comment ;)

          *The 9000 series is the most reliable computer ever made. No 9000 computer has ever made a mistake or distorted information. We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof and incapable of error.

          1. jelabarre59

            Re: After seen that dialog text, I've one more reason to avoid Windows 10

            I think there are quite a few who have either never heard of a HAL9000 computer* which is shocking for a tech publication (though a somewhat downmarket one) or missed the irony.

            Sheesh, at least *someone* recognized the reference.

  11. Jason Hindle

    Yes, the Windows 10 updates are pretty awful

    And it's even worse if you've not had the damned thing switched on for a while. I recently got back from a 12 week business trip, where there wasn't room in the hand luggage for the Surface. It took two days to get the damned thing right. It wouldn't even connect to my home WiFi, initially (fixed by manually configuring the IP settings). The Mac, OTOH (and I hate to write this*) just worked.

    * Because everyone who owns a Mac knows they have problems of their own.

    1. AndyS

      Re: Yes, the Windows 10 updates are pretty awful

      I've left a laptop in a drawer for years before, pulled it out, turned it on, and it just worked. But it's running Linux, not some abomination love child of a pickpocket and a baby sitter.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Yes, the Windows 10 updates are pretty awful

        Yes, I too still sometimes turn on my Commodore 64 and 286 DOS machine, they just work... for some meaning of "work" :-D

      2. Pete4000uk

        Re: Yes, the Windows 10 updates are pretty awful

        I have Debian on my 2003 spec laptop. Its a tad sluggish but its still got the original hard drive.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Yes, the Windows 10 updates are pretty awful

      Macs are fine as long as you don't step off the yellow brick road.

      Yours,

      Tim 'Tin man' Cook.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Yes, the Windows 10 updates are pretty awful

        you mean when you're not 'holding it wrong'.

  12. Timmy B

    I don't understand....

    I have 5 PCs here all on Windows 10 (home and pro) and not a single one of them has ever rebooted without me wanting it to. What have either I done right, or other people done wrong? I have no additional software installed and haven't done anything to settings. A quick poll of friends and family members using 10 seems to say that there has only been one reboot when not wanted and that was a BSOD. A big fuss over nothing I think.

    1. nk

      Re: I don't understand....

      If you don't leave them (all 5 of them) on 24/7 or if you check up on them all daily you'll never have a problem because you'll notice the prompts.

      I have at least 2 PCs in separate locations always on and sometimes it can be days before I log on to either remotely. More often, I log on quickly to do something and I barely notice if there is a system warning.

      Now, because I am aware of this "feature", I make sure to check on them relatively often to avoid a nasty surprise. But it's still frustrating when I happen to forget.

      And I'm not one of those people who think windows updating is bad. On the contrary I'm quite dilligent and even considered an update zealot by some

      1. Timmy B

        Re: I don't understand....

        "If you don't leave them (all 5 of them) on 24/7 or if you check up on them all daily you'll never have a problem because you'll notice the prompts."

        I have one on 24x7. But it does look like you've got some PCs there that should be running a server level OS. Why else would they need to be on round the clock?

        1. Sooty

          Re: I don't understand....

          the main annoyance I have is when I've left something downloading, that will take several hours, and I come back to it later to find it rebooted in the middle of it.

        2. hplasm
          Windows

          Re: I don't understand....

          "But it does look like you've got some PCs there that should be running a server level OS. "

          Not Windows, then.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I don't understand....

          "Why else would they need to be on round the clock?"

          Convenience? Even if it's not round the clock, if you leave a PC running into the night to finish something (a video transcode, a large download, etc) Microsoft would have you believe you need to set special permission to do this and temporarily tweak the "active hours" settings.

          Regardless, it's the usual Microsoft arrogance that it's their PC and they can reboot it whenever they like. As someone else posted higher up, they're trumpeting that it's a brilliant new innovation, when really it's just a nostalgic trip back to the days of XP in the early noughties, when they first figured out they shouldn't reboot a machine without user approval.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I don't understand....

        Doesn't the pro version of windows allow you to choose when updates are applied? Or is that only the enterprise version?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I don't understand....

          "Doesn't the pro version of windows allow you to choose when updates are applied?"

          You can set "active hours" to a maximum of 12 each day where it won't apply them. Say 8am to 8pm. But walk way from your PC with unsaved work at 9pm for an hour at your peril unless you've remembered to tweak them. And then change them back. Every. Fucking. Time.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I don't understand....

            You can set "active hours" to a maximum of 12 each day where it won't apply them. Say 8am to 8pm. But walk way from your PC with unsaved work at 9pm for an hour at your peril unless you've remembered to tweak them. And then change them back. Every. Fucking. Time.

            The easy solution is to have two PCs: one to be used 08:00 to 20:00, the other for the 20:00 to 08:00 work. For ergonomic reasons, I would also make them different color: say blue or green for the day PC, red or gold for the night one.

            Only half jocking, too: I've learned to pick my battles, and never enter a contest I can't possibly win. Fighting with your boss, your bank, your insurance company, and your OS vendor is guaranteed to be a losing propisition: you may win a skirmish or two, but in the end the only real choices are to end over or to walk.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Stopped using

    Simply stopped using my laptop and use my Ipad, fed up of windows just restarting in the middle of a skype call/shopping then having to wait 30 minutes. Now hardly ever use it. Awful.

    1. David Lawton

      Re: Stopped using

      You are not the only one, just look at this graph

      http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share#monthly-201301-201701

      Windows usage has been on a serious nose dive and 50% drop almost in its usage in just 3 years is quite a scary nose dive.

      Clearly a lot of people just don't use their desktop class devices as much anymore, i know i don't, my social media, banking , shopping or researching stuff for a trip is done on my phone or tablet mostly.

      How much lower will Windows nose dive over the next few years?

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Stopped using

        > How much lower will Windows nose dive over the next few years?

        Walt Mossberg has written this week that he believes personal computers to change to ARM soon, citing Chromebooks, Windows Universal Apps and Apple. Being Mossberg, he thinks Apple is best placed, given their ARM expertise and range of existing iOS tablet apps.

        http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/1/14771328/walt-mossberg-pc-definition-smartphone-tablet-desktop-computers

        1. MD Rackham

          Re: Stopped using

          I think it's sort of telling that Mossberg thinks that iPad apps cover the totality of what is done on computers. There is more to life than word processing/spreadsheets/games, although most "pundits" don't know that.

          (Not to mention that ARM really isn't up to the task of those non-word processing/spreadsheets/games uses.)

          1. Rattus Rattus

            Re: @MD Rackham

            ARM isn't up to the games use case, either. Hell, an Xbone isn't, for that matter.

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Stopped using

          "Walt Mossberg has written this week that he believes personal computers to change to ARM soon"

          He's making Micro-shaft's mistake, believing that EVERYONE is a 4" screen content consumer (i.e. a "4-incher").

          You can't use 'new device' sales to determine how people use their computers, especially not NOW when 10 year old machines still seem to do a fine job, especially withOUT Win "ape" or Win-10-nic on them.

          But market-droids don't know how to look at an existing user base. They ONLY look at 'new sales', and if market-droids are DESIGNING THE SYSTEMS, we can expect "more of the same" from them. What idiots, yeah.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Stopped using

        Based on preliminary analysis from a few OS market share website including statcounter with linear interpretation, in 1 year iOS will over take US Windows market share, in 2 years android will over take worldwide OS share, in 3 years Windows 7 will reach close to 1% market share. Currently, combined mobile share has already over taken Windows market share

        It is pretty clear why Microsoft goes that far to maintain market share, except they are clearly not helping it at all. Especially going for stupid features (bugs) like unwanted reboot.

        not pitting them at all.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Windows is a service..."

    Is this a hint that's it's about to incur a yearly/monthly charge?

    1. Timmy B

      Re: "Windows is a service..."

      "Is this a hint that's it's about to incur a yearly/monthly charge?"

      No.

  15. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    Serious question here...

    Not pushing one OS or another, but what is the architectural difference between Windows and Linux that gives Windows the need to restart after any (or most) updates? Irrespective of the timing of an update, I have *never* seen a Linux OS require a restart for anything other than a kernel version upgrade - and even then, it installs it and keeps running on the old kernel until such times as I choose to restart the machine.

    My normal preference is to keep a machine in standby if at all possible so when I come back to it it is as I left it; that's broken on a regular basis by a Windows restart-after-update strategy. And Windows' 'reset when Windows decides to' approach does not endear it to me.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Serious question here...

      There are probably other fine points I am not aware of, but one fundamental difference is that Linux (and most UNIX) file systems allow a file to be replaced via a move operation while the file is open/in-use. So with a typical Linux update you unpack the update, then move it over the "live" version, and if possible you restart that process.

      Now not all processes can be restarted while live, most obvious is the kernel (and related in-use drivers like file systems, etc) and the user log-on system for the desktop, active SSH sessions, etc. In these cases you have a patched machine but the previously running process are not yet updated. So if you start another instance of such a process (OK, not the kernel!) such as a new SSH log-in then you get the patched version.

      So to finally apply ALL updated you need a reboot, but at that point in time everything is already done, so you don't get another couple of minutes of "applying updated ... configuring computer" or whatever you see when restarting Windows after it said it was done.

      There are also a couple of options for patching the Linux kernel while in-use, but they are not universally in use yet and probably have some limits on how big a change can be done (e.g. basic changes to structures, etc, on major updates) without a reboot.

      1. cavac

        Re: Serious question here...

        Both Windows and Linux use Memory Mapping to load executables into memory, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory-mapped_file.

        The fundamental difference is how the VFS and the underlying file systems work. On Windows, applications require an exclusive lock on the file for some writing directory operations (like move, delete and truncate, if memory serves correctly), because they are *immediate* operations.

        On Linux/Unix, some of those are scheduled operations. In case of move or delete, the files fall out of the visible directory immediately, but the block are only freed *after* all filehandles are closed. Although applications CAN request exclusive locks, for example having multiple SQLite programms changing the same database file at the same time would be a Bad Thing(tm).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "so you don't get another couple of minutes of "applying updated ... "

        First, many files are actually copied to the final destination when the system is rebooted. At this stage, the OS is not still fully initialized, thus some operations are slower.

        Then the msi technology in inherently heavier - it records actions so it can roll them back, for example, if needed, you don't usually (i.e no custom actions) need to write proper pre/post package scripts to handle errors.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Serious question here...

      Even in Linux, unless you restart the running processes that are using a patched file, they will keep on using the previous version. So beware of thinking you patched a system when you're still running the unpatched code. Sure, you have the new code on disk, but the old one in memory. When one of the basic user mode libraries are patched, it may not be easy to restart each and every running process using it separately...

      Windows designers made a deliberate choice of not allowing to replace files in use. On Raymond Chan's "The Old New Thing" blog you can find the rationale for that choice. One of the reasons IIRC was the risk of exchanging data structures that have changed across processes using different versions of a library. It may happen without any need of modifying the calling code, i.e. opaque handles to structures may point to different internal structures in different versions. That's one of the issues also to solve to allow for a kernel live patching system.

      Then they designed a mechanism to allow files to be replaced at reboot - before they got loaded again. That allows Windows to keep on running using the old files after a patch has been installed, until a reboot. Of course, if you never reboot, those files will be never updated - and if some users never reboot, than bad ideas come into the mind of OS developers...

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Serious question here...

        "Even in Linux, unless you restart the running processes that are using a patched file, they will keep on using the previous version."

        In general processes running services will be individually restarted during the update without a reboot. Processes running a shared library will continue to run the old in-memory library. In general there's an assumption that such processes won't be long-lived and the new library will then be used next time they're run; in the interim there may be two versions of the library, both memory resident, one not yet finished with and one in use by processes started after the update.

        What always amazes me is the relative speed of doing all this. One factor may be the fact that the greater number of Windows boxes puts a greater load on the servers and their networks so that they throttle the bitrates. Another might be that as Linux updates are much less disruptive they're pushed out as a available so that each is smaller; this, of course, has the additional advantage that a fix gets pushed out Right Now rather than waiting until the next big patch release.

      2. stephanh

        Re: Serious question here...

        @LDS, frankly this smacks a bit too much of post-hoc rationalisation of the side of Windows developers.

        From the very first DOS version, FAT was not a inode-based system and you couldn't have a file without it having a file name. (This also complicates Linux (V)FAT support). In MS DOS 3.3, file locking was introduced, and from then on, any change to this model to make it more Unix-like would have broken too many applications.

        So the Windows developers can claim they are happy with how it works today but realistically they never were in a position to change it.

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: Serious question here...

      "what is the architectural difference between Windows and Linux that gives Windows the need to restart after any (or most) updates?"

      It is, primarily, the file system and the way Micro-shaft uses "paranoia" with respect to files [it seems their philosophy is one that assume disk contents can change behind the OS's back, or something...]

      In winders, if a DLL is in use, it cannot be updated without first shutting down everything that is using it. In Linux, files are 'inodes' and directories simply point to the inode. In Windows, the file is the name, not the node (though with NTFS this shouldn't HAVE to be the case, as I understand it).

      Windows doesn't allow you to delete a file and still have it "exist" until all references close it. Linux does. And so, with a Linux system, if you have a bunch of daemons running that are referencing a shared lib, they CAN continue to use "the old lib" until you restart them, which means you can take your time to update shared libs, then just restart the daemons and you're done. It's also the same with executable files.

      In Winders, it's all 'paranoid'. A DLL (or EXE for that matter) is *locked* and cannot be updated until ALL references to it are closed. This forces the updaters to a) write temporary copies of the new DLL, and b) rename them on reboot.

      Back in the win '9x days, this was an easier process, and of course there's an API function available that installers can use to leverage this. But it _DOES_ require that REBOOT.

      And over time, the process has become more and more complicated, with replication of system DLLs and things of THAT nature.

      And don't EVEN get me started on updates to "the registry". Linux does JUST FINE with config files ('systemd' nonsense notwithstanding) stored in 'well known' directory trees such as '/etc' '/usr/share' and '/usr/local'. And running daemons often have a 'reload' option to update them with the changed files, letting you edit them at your leisure, then tell the daemon to re-read it, etc..

      Suffice it to say that the SIMPLE and ELEGANT architecture of Linux, being VASTLY SUPERIOR to the kludgy and paranoid architecture of Windows, means that updates [other than major kernel updates] do NOT require a reboot... JUST a re-start of the affected systems.

      [but it never hurts to boot Linux after a massive upgrade - sometimes things just don't work right until you do]

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Switched to Linux Mint

    Couldn't be happier.

    All the look and feel of Win7, with all common apps available, but without any of the slowdowns, security patching pain or my personal data going back to the US spooks.

    1. frank ly

      Re: Switched to Linux Mint

      You can change the Mint menu icon to a Windows menu icon (or anything else) if you really want to go retro. I did that in the early stages as well as having Windows 7 desktop wallpaper but I realised that I was being silly.

  17. wolfetone Silver badge
    Linux

    Fedora restarts to update...

    ... but that's only to update the kernel. Every other update runs in the back ground with a friendly "pip pip" notification saying everything's updated. Leaving me to be productive on Football Manager.

    1. jason 7

      Re: Fedora restarts to update...

      Updates to the Kernel must happen a lot as when I used Fedora for about 6 months it had updates and needed rebooting pretty much every week.

      Just my experience.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Fedora restarts to update...

        "when I used Fedora for about 6 months it had updates and needed rebooting pretty much every week"

        It's a long time since I used Fedora but AIUI it might not be a bleeding edge distro but it does follow a faster release cycle than others so I'm not surprised. If you want stability you go with a distro with a slower cycle such as Debian stable and accept you might be running older versions of applications.

  18. 0laf
    Flame

    Update I hate you

    How about making it easier to download the fucking patches individually to get round MS's fucked up update process?

    Never mind rebooting the damn thing just stop it from sitting running the installer service at 75% of the processor load forever unless I kill it. Update service says nothing, can't find out what is causing it because MS now hides everything.

    Bastards.

    1. naive

      Re: Update I hate you

      The anniversary update process is beyond retarded. In the start of February, I found out the installation of the anniversary update failed. Windows logs revealed it had been trying to download the multiple GB's of W10 anniversary update everyday again and again for a month, spoiling my online gaming experience. Manual download: Failed with the same error, which appears in many forums since September 2016 but never has been fixed. Summit of retardism in nowadays MS: a failed update removes the 3.5GB update blob, so the happy user can wait another 30+ minutes for the next try. Another weird thing: Windows 10 manages to wake up a laptop from sleep for updates. During the failed anniversary updates it often was on every morning.

      Setting the ethernet to metered fixed this anniversary update issue for now :).

  19. Terry 6 Silver badge

    Not just the f***ing updates

    "Windows 10 made most of the decisions for you..."

    I was pretty much a Windows fan, once.

    But it's the endless loss of control of my own machines that is making me more and more anti.

    *Hiding controls away in lots of different places.

    *Making the Start menu a dog's breakfast by allowing software to install entire folders into it wherever they want, but making it difficult for users to rearrange or remove them. And having the word "new" appearing next to all the unwanted bits.

    *Silly "apps" that can't be removed without tech level tinkering ( or not at all).

    *Making their own programmes defaults ( like Edge with the pretty useless Bing), and then making it messy and complicated to set your own programmes as the "open with" choice.

    And so on.

  20. Potemkine Silver badge
    Mushroom

    "We also heard that unexpected reboots are disruptive if they happen at the wrong time"

    No f*cking kidding!

    Reboots caused by updates make users' life miserable for decades and they just heard about that?! What a bunch of clowns...

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: "We also heard that unexpected reboots are disruptive if they happen at the wrong time"

      Since Vista, you mean. It just feels like decades! :)

  21. jason 7

    Since using Windows 10....

    ...I haven't had the 'unexpected restarts'. Mine only installs when I go to shut down or manually restart.

    The only issue I have with Windows updates is the time it takes to install them (almost as long as re-installing the OS) and the fact they don't fully install on the shutdown phase. Most annoying when you take your laptop somewhere, open up, power on and then find you have to wait for 10 minutes looking at "Updates are 100% complete".

    MS needs to find a faster and slicker solution. It looks lumpy when my Chromebook can do a version update in a 6 second reboot.

  22. Duncan Macdonald

    Disable Windows Update service

    If you disable and stop the Windows Update service then no windows updates will occur until you reenable the service.

    Another way of preventing windows updates is to change the properties of each of the network connections to "metered" as windows should not now attempt to download updates over an expensive connection.

    Using either of the above methods gives you control of when updates occur.

    1. P. Lee
      Mushroom

      Re: Disable Windows Update service

      There's always the fun shutting down during the day before going to a client site and wondering if it will come back up at the other end. Or if it will take twenty minutes to do so while the client sits there waiting for you.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    More new stuff, how about fixing the old bugs

    Microsoft seem happy to throw in more and more new features with every release of Windows.

    But they REFUSE to fix the bugs in the existing features.

    e.g.: Windows File Explorer STILL, for over a decade, cannot handle Long File Paths that it ITSELF creates !

    They added a flag to allow programs to handle Long File Paths.

    But Microsoft's File Explorer does NOT USE IT !

  24. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Linux

    The one reason I took up Linux ..

    I had been running Dapper Drake as a bit of a toe-dip, and Edge was released. For some reason it borked my soundcard.

    I called my brother (linux guru) and he said: "Don't worry, I'll SSH in." Great I said. Let me know when you're done.

    "Oh, no need for that" he said "just carry on doing whatever".

    I did, a a few minutes later the webpage I was on started playing. My brother had manged to recompile the driver, and load it without me even logging out, let alone reboot.

    Try THAT on Windows !!!!!!!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The one reason I took up Linux ..

      Ahh, the usual friendly way to install drivers under Linux.... :-D No need to try that under Windows, especially since you can't recompile drivers (and the signature requirement is a good one).

      You didn't notice that most driver installs doesn't required a reboot under Windows - even video card drivers can be installed without a reboot.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: even video card drivers can be installed without a reboot.

        Remotely via a terminal ? I don't think so. TELNET being (correctly) disabled by default, and (back in 2007) powershell not being available for XP ?????

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The one reason I took up Linux ..

        Most Windows drivers, regardless of actually required or not, will have the pop-up "driver installation completed. Would you like to restart now or later?"

  25. teebie

    So their huge advance is that they have upgraded Windows 10 to incorporate Windows XP technology.

    I wonder why their sales figures aren't great.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Even better, they've incorporated Windows 10 technology from 9 months ago. Or rather, realised they've fcked things up and regressed it while pretending it's a brilliant new innovation.

  26. AndrueC Silver badge
    Boffin

    I'd be happier if my work machine didn't require me to reboot when I want to install something. It's maddening. I've spent time trying to debug MSIExec (and that has nothing to recommend it) and just can't get to the bottom of it. It's just that after a while my machine becomes unable to accept any installation until I reboot. At that point it will install multiple things.

  27. jms222

    Linux kernel changes

    File changes aside the Linux kernel gets updated (in the average distribution) EVERY FEW DAYS.

    The fact that it doesn't automatically reboot just means you _might_ be running an insecure kernel from that point on if the kernel update concerned security.

    (In practice few kernel updates concern security in any meaningful way but finding out is not trivial. Yes I acknowledge that version 4 may have the ability to hot patch. Like Netware had in the 90s.)

    1. Chemist

      Re: Linux kernel changes

      "The fact that it doesn't automatically reboot just means you _might_ be running an insecure kernel from that point on if the kernel update concerned security."

      OTOH the better distros do tell you to reboot when necessary.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Linux kernel changes

      "File changes aside the Linux kernel gets updated (in the average distribution) EVERY FEW DAYS."

      Citation needed.

      My experience (Debian LTS): there may be updates of some sort every few days but very few of these are of the kernel.

      If you get kernel updates every few days you must be running a bleeding edge distro. If you're using it for production then you have more problems than needing to reboot.

  28. Aoyagi Aichou
    Windows

    Sounds like too little too late

    Is it going to fix random resetting of various settings? Is it possible to disable driver updates now? Is it possible to handpick updates?

  29. Sixtysix
    Devil

    Turn Of At Mains...

    Every time I sleep my computer.

    Got SICK AND TIRED of waking up to find it switched on and humming, having restarted itself to install updates at 2/3/4am, but not having the sense to even power off again.

    Not to mention closing all my documents and windows: thank heavens for "Restore previous session" in Firefox.

  30. SouthernLogic

    Dysfunctional Micro$oft

    This is one of the reasons I left M$ os's and went to linux. I am a life long windows user and have not agreed with the OS moves since windows 7. I had 2 VMs runnung on my Win 10 box when M$ decided to reboot, these VMs did not come back, corrupted much processing data lost. This combined with M$ efforts into Linux made me jump ship. Why run Linux on windows, just get the real thing so thats what i did. Linux Mint since the 1st of the year it just works, and no more M$ dysfunctional thinking for me.

  31. jms222

    If the VM didn't come back there's a good chance a real one wouldn't either.

    I happened to have a (rare) Win7 blue screen this morning. My virtual Ubuntu is absolutely fine and I also have backup OVAs if it.

  32. IsJustabloke
    Paris Hilton

    I'm slightly confused by all this...

    I recently bought a little Acer netpad... just for a bit of websurfing and email while I kicked about at home/ laid about on the sofa... the kind of stuff I used to do on my mobey basically.

    It runs windows 10 and it has configuration options for when to download and install updates. Is there something I'm missing? The machine asks me if I want to install updates, if I say No it goes away for while. There's no automatically downloading/installing and rebooting going on at all.

    1. jason 7

      Re: I'm slightly confused by all this...

      I know, I don't see most of the niggles that folks complain all the while about. I have no idea what the hell they are doing with their kit. I work in IT support and it does stagger me how skewed some peoples perception of how IT works is.

      It's like when they call you with a problem, they tell you and its almost fantastical or magic what is happening. You get them to be less 'fantastical' and state what's really going on. Okay you then get an idea. You then go and see the problem...it's totally different to what they stated an hour before. But to them it's the same problem.

      And in most cases...it isn't a problem.

      "Err that's how it's meant to work...and has done for the past 20 years!"

      1. jelabarre59

        Re: I'm slightly confused by all this...

        "Err that's how it's meant to work...and has done for the past 20 years!"

        Doesn't mean it's not a problem, or not a flaw. It's just a problem/flaw that the vendor refuses to fix ir even acknowledge.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The article says the options for scheduling reboots were removed from Windows 10 Home (not Pro) with the Anniversary Update last August. So have you checked if your netpad has installed the Anniversary Update? See the 'Most Helpful Reply' ...

      https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-windows_install/how-would-i-know-if-the-anniversary-update-has/a348e554-b777-457b-ac5e-3d798ea66a66

      If your build is less than 1607 then you are still running the original Windows 10. Follow the first answer if you are sure you want to "upgrade".

  33. Dwarf

    apt

    Perhaps once Microsoft have finished implementing bash, they can turn their attention to adding apt and making that part of Windows work properly as well.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: apt

      No, writing packages for apt is really an ugly task.

      1. Maventi

        Re: apt

        As someone who's created many MSI and Deb packages, I'll take Deb any day of the week thank you.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: apt

          There are far better tools to write Windows installers than deb packages. Or you can use InnoSetup and don't use msi. Deb packages are easy to write for simple tasks, are a nightmare for complex ones, especially since the documentation is truly badly written. It's not uncommon to see deprecated features still widely used because package maintainers can't keep up...

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Disabling the Reboot function

    For those interested in preventing Windows 10 reboots this way, keep in mind that Windows may decide all of a sudden to reenable the Reboot function. I do not know what exactly causes this to happen but it does happen. The way to prevent *that* from happening is to go to security settings of Reboot and remove all permissions it has.

  35. YARR

    Too many updates or not enough?

    If Windows 10 gets too many updates, what about Windows 10 Mobile?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_version_history#Mobile_version_history

    If they only release major updates to non fast-ring users, does that mean Windows 10 Mobile is open to all the recent exploits which have been patched in it's bigger brother?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Too many updates or not enough?

      People still buy Windows phones? What a waste of time and money.

      Forget the top-rated games, Windows Mobile is not even getting the apps for newspapers, banks and travel convenience.

      Windows 10 Mobile is irrelevant, not even with Continuum or other desperate attempts by Microsoft to blur the boundaries between a PC (their desktop monopoly) and a mobile device.

      Not even the 'Facehugger' manoeuvre of latching onto Nokia could save Windows phones.

      Steve Ballmer dropped the ball, and SatNad squashed it. Game over.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My problem is Windows 10 takes forever to shutdown as I only boot in to it one every week or so to do a quick task.

    The hold on while windows tries to shutdown message I assume is related to the updates process.

  37. Harry Stottle

    Don't forget the "Set Ethernet as Metered Connection"

    (if you don't already know how, download WinAeroTweaker and look under the Network Options)

    From then on, Windows may inform you that updates exist but that it won't download them until you're NOT on a metered connection. When you're ready (after running wushowhide.diagcab and "hiding" any updates you don't want, like I mentioned last week) you do NOT have to unset the metered connection. Just press the download button and it will proceed as normal.

    And I've just checked on a W10 Home machine which stupidly allowed itself to update to the anniversary edition, and that hack still works

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't forget the "Set Ethernet as Metered Connection"

      If you have to jump through so many hoops to get the basic functions up to par... then the Microsoft devs have definitely dropped the ball.

      A classic case of the Microsoft devs (or the marketing zombie overlords pulling their strings) being too clever by half.

  38. jelabarre59

    Explicit complaint

    Actually, I *ALWAYS* complain about Microsoft explicitly. I need to learn new swear words in new languages because I've worn out the ones I know...

  39. razorfishsl

    They are as thick as pig shit and have a FU attitude.

    We run a distributed network over a production facility, pattern print jobs are processed at night.

    Well they used to be until win 10, now we just come in in the morning to find the print controllers have all shutdown to update.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So you're a professional printing company using a home edition of Windows to run overnight batch jobs and Microsoft are the ones who are "thick as pig shit"?

  40. Clive Galway
    FAIL

    Just WARN me that you are going to update, dammit!

    It's not windows rebooting when left alone that winds me up, it's windows installing updates when I reboot with ZERO warning.

    If windows is going to update when you reboot, it needs to explicitly state it - ie the restart option should be renamed to "Reboot and update" and it should offer you a "Reboot and don't update".

    We had an evening utterly ruined by this while on holiday the other week - 4 of us in our holiday apartment, using the laptop for entertainment - we rebooted after installing an app, then it installed a massive update which took all night with no warning whatsoever.

  41. HKmk23

    If anyone can tell me.....

    How I can run: Visio, Treebyte, Dymo label, ANNI, ECGDM, VCDS, Splashtop Business, Stockmarket Eye to say the least on any other platform than windows for one would be very interested!

  42. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I get why people are annoyed but honesty, does PC's being left "running processes over night" sound like a very "home" workload to you?

    Sound more like something a pro would do and Microsoft might have argued if you're a pro you buy the pro licence.

    (I'm the guy with access to a volume licence and enterprise edition so I'm just laughing at your guys really)

  43. rexyup

    Sorry Fellas

    I’m a Linux/Unix/OSX user, so I’ll probably be persona non-grata here, but I’m truly sorry to see what MS is doing to it’s customers these days. Sure, I could tell you to start using something else, but let’s face it, if you could, you’d already be doing that. Sometimes, you’re just stuck.

    Regardless, I think it’s truly wrong the way you’re being treated, and I hope that you can somehow make MS think it’s in their best interest to treat you better. This is intolerable, and the nonsensical redefinition of customer purchases from products to services doesn’t help. Just because you're not in my camp of users doesn't mean that I want to see you treated badly. You deserve as much as we do to have full control over the things that you purchase.

    That said, even with a EULA, you are obligated to get just consideration for every sacrifice MS causes you to make, so I’d say you have several lawsuit basis if you have the means to fight this.

  44. nvgjfg

    Doesn't Work

    I have made all the setting changes you suggested and have the Creators update. Last night my computer rebooted for an update. When I checked the settings you suggested I found under "Triggers" there was an entry to update last night. So, no matter what you change Windows will write its own code to override you. Now I once again have to restart all my programs and see if anything was lost.

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