back to article Helium... No. Do you think this is some kind of game? Toshiba intros 8TB desktop drive

Toshiba has upgraded its X300 gaming/workstation desktop drive from 6TB to 8TB capacity, continuing to sidestep any moves to helium-filling tech. This is a 3.5-inch drive spinning at 7,200rpm, with a 6Gbit/s SATA interface and 128MB cache. The prior generation came with 4, 5 and 6TB capacity points. The latest X300 only has an …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Looks good, but I'll wait for helium filled SSD.

    1. Len Goddard

      And pay a lot more for a performance difference you are unlikely to notice unless you are running some very demanding applications.

      1. handle

        @Len Goddard

        Somebody needs to step away from the keyboard...

      2. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

        Unless you need the storage for photos, videos or games, using SSDs makes computers run they way they're meant to. I think it's no longer acceptable to have a new computer with any sort of mechanical spinning disk. The performance hit is ridiculous. A plain old Dual Core laptop (not even a core i3) will run perfectly well with an SSD. Far better than a Core i5 or i7 even with a spinning disk in many real-world use-cases (like opening and closing email clients, word processors, web browsers etc.).

        What annoys me is that so many laptops that have SSDs are either tiny 128GB affairs, or at the top of the price spectrum and have 256GB SSDs. Hardly any have drives bigger than that. The situation is improving, but with almost all of the "budget" laptops having spinning disks, it makes them seem slow and clunky.

    2. Charles 9

      Why do you need helium in a solid state drive? The only reason you need helium in a rust drive is that it improves the aerodynamics meaning you can pack the enclosure tighter.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. nerdnh

        No brainer - helium would make the bits float up from the SSD faster!!

      3. Fungus Bob
        Holmes

        Re: Charles 9

        That whooshing sound over your head is not the sound of helium escaping....

        1. Charles 9

          Re: Charles 9

          That THUNK is the sound of the helium-filled SSD hitting someone in the head because it performs no better than the one filled with air given SSDs, by definition, have no mechanical parts to take advantage of the aerodynamics. They'd use other substances (like solids and liquids) if they were more interested in thermal transfer. And next time, if you're going to make a joke, use the Joke Alert.

          1. pompurin

            Re: Charles 9

            I'm glad you jumped to the bait because I was about to do the same thing.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      "Looks good, but I'll wait for helium filled SSD."

      Don't forget the PureGold(tn) oxygen free cabling from Monster to make sure your data can get from the drive to the motherboard safely and in a timely fashion with full integrity.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We have liftoff.

    Sorry, I'm out of here.

  3. King Jack

    Longevity

    How long do these last? The helium will escape and if they rely on helium to function, then will they break at that time. Or am I missing something.

    1. Greg D

      Re: Longevity

      one would imagine the seals are air tight.... a technology we've got a pretty good handle on. If we don't then I fear for anyone up in the ISS right now... or in a Submarine.

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: Longevity

        Helium is significantly smaller than air. (It's smaller and monatomic.) Being Helium-tight is therefore more of an engineering challenge than being air-tight. I don't know whether it is *hard*, but it is certainly harder and (as the OP notes) the drive depends on it not happening.

        1. Mage Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: Longevity

          CRTs gradually acquire helium, degrading performance. However if the pressure is slightly lower than air pressure, then as air can't get in, why would the helium leave?

          Still I'd maybe rather have one of these than a helium filled drive and certainly more than a shingled one.

          Note an HDD won't work without gas in it, vacuum won't work, as the heads actually "fly". Bernoulli principle or something?

        2. Hawkuletz
          Holmes

          Re: Longevity

          However, the challenge is not to keep Helium in as it is to keep air out. After all, Helium would only escape if there some pressure differential between the inside of the drive and the atmosphere. If air can't get in (airtight seal) surely the drive will not experience a vacuum caused by escaped helium.

          1. Mike Shepherd

            Re: Longevity

            "Helium would only escape if there some pressure differential between the inside of the drive and the atmosphere...".

            Does diffusion depend on a pressure difference? Net diffusion of a given gas would depend on the difference in its *own* partial pressure (across the membrane), but would take place independently of any other gas present. (The whole notion of a gas is that its particles don't interact much with others).

        3. Mike Shepherd

          Re: Longevity

          "Helium...smaller and monatomic...therefore..."

          Nice theory, but I recall a TV school science programme where children actually did the experiment (diffusion time from a balloon) and found that carbon dioxide escapes much faster than hydrogen (perhaps because it could dissolve in the rubber of the balloon?) Real life is rarely as simple as GCSE physics.

          1. Charles 9

            Re: Longevity

            "Nice theory, but I recall a TV school science programme where children actually did the experiment (diffusion time from a balloon) and found that carbon dioxide escapes much faster than hydrogen (perhaps because it could dissolve in the rubber of the balloon?)"

            I think it was CO2 vs. ordinary air, that one. I don't think they've compared hydrogen OR helium (the two lightest gases in existence, weights of 2 and 4 respectively, and practically nothing in the way of shape to interfere with diffusion--H2 is a barbell and He is monoatomic).

    2. Mike Shepherd

      Re: Longevity

      I recall helium-filled fixed-head drives in the mid-1970s. These came with a small bottle of helium, used if you needed to open (then purge) the drive. I don't recall that we ever had to change the helium bottle.

      1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

        Re: Longevity

        I don't recall that we ever had to change the helium bottle.

        Really? You have better self-discipline than me then. If we had kit like that here, we'd constantly be goofing around breathing the helium to do the funny voice thing....probably be ordering a new gas bottle every couple of weeks or so.

    3. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

      Re: Longevity

      That's right, helium drives need another level of manufacturing quality.

      Previous drives have had plenty of sealing failures. In best cases it increases media error rates slightly, in worst cases seals can disintegrate so badly that they'll become a source of serious contamination.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Longevity

        "Previous drives have had plenty of sealing failures."

        Standard drives are not sealed. Being sealed would be a Very Bad Thing as amongst other things they wouldn't be able to be airfreighted or used in passenger aircraft at altitude. On the other hand the breathers on standard drives have pretty good filters to keep "stuff" out and there are also filters inside the case to catch and trap anything thrown off the platters.

        Helium-filled drives have to be rigid enough to handle the extra case stresses causes by external variations in atmospheric pressure (weather and altitude). They also need to have good enough seals to handle this variation, which means that they're pretty good at keeping helium IN and everything else OUT. That said I'm not sure I'd want to fire one up whilst flying at 30,000 feet.

        FWIW you could probably fill 20-30 HDDs with the helium in one party balloon.

        1. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

          Re: Longevity

          "Standard drives are not sealed."

          They are not sealed against atmospheric pressure. But there are seals against dust. By design, air should get in only through the filter attached to the breather hole. What I was talking about: if the dust seal starts to deteriorate, foreign particles may enter through the seal and end up on the platter. Or the seal itself decomposes into flying debris.

    4. phuzz Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Longevity

      The whole point of the article is that these Toshiba drives don't use helium, so consequently, there's no bother about leakage.

    5. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Longevity

      Blackblaze Q1 2016 data shows HGSTs Helium drives have a lower than average failure rate. Data for WD is in there, but I do not recognise which models are Helium. Read and think before drawing conclusions: very new models often get bad numbers when the defective ones fail early. Very old models get bad numbers because they have been in service for over five years. Seagate used to have poor reliability, but low price and clear warnings of imminent failure in the SMART data made them cost effective anyway.

      WD spent lots of time working out how to keep helium in a box, and IIRC were first to market with a Helium filled drive. Their competitors did not rush competing products to market because keeping helium in a box for years is difficult. Toshiba's small market share will make statistically significant data very rare.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Longevity

        "Blackblaze Q1 2016 data shows HGSTs Helium drives have a lower than average failure rate"

        Every time I've looked at BackBlaze's stats, HGST drives have a lower than average failure rate (helium filled or not) and my own datacentre experience backs that up. The only HGST drive I've ever seen fail inside its warrantied lifespan came in packaging that showed clear signs of extremely rough handling.

        WD, not so much and Seagate's "enterprise" drives have generally been more unreliable than their consumer counterparts (with the exception of the consumer barracuda DM series - of which every single drive failed _at least_ once during its warranty period. None have ever lasted more than 7000 hours and some less than half that)

        The chinese ministry of commerce and competition finally OKed HGST being folded into WD - hence WD now selling helium drives, but they also OKed Toshiba being folded into Seagate, so these X300 might be Toshiba or they might be Toshiba-branded Seagate. Do you feel lucky, punk?

        (This ties into today's other story about spinny disk sales collapsing. They'll collapse faster now the mergers are underway)

    6. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Longevity

      "How long do these last?"

      Longer than the warranty.

      "The helium will escape"

      Eventually, but this isn't a slightly pressurised party balloon with only a thin porous membrane keeping the helium inside.

      And in the case of the X300 there's no helium.

  4. Androgynous Cowherd

    Why would I need 8TB for a few games?

    1. Charles 9

      Try A LOT of games, like a massive Steam collection (thanks to oodles of sales). Some of them can get pretty big which means once you have them you'd rather not have to download them again due to your data allowance caps.

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      You don't - use an SSD

      Nine crates of DVDs need 7TB. That is were a pair of 8TB drives would be handy at home, but for this use case, shingled would be acceptable.

    3. P. Lee

      Why 8 tb for gamers?

      Maybe gamers are often tech heads who also run pvr's.

      Maybe they rip all their CDs and DVDs to their home network too.

  5. Pete4000uk

    I remember...

    ... Going to Tempo in Gloucester to upgrade from a 2.1Gb drive to a 80Gb drive. That set me back about £100.

    Yet I see things like this and think 'Where do they fit it all?'

    1. Charles 9

      Re: I remember...

      Apparently, edge-on these days. They're also looking into shingle-style (probably meant for WORM applications) as well as cramming them into tighter spaces using heat and with help from helium.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cue the pain in 2.0001 years

    Two year warranty. Tells you everything you need to know.

    1. FrankAlphaXII

      Re: Cue the pain in 2.0001 years

      And have fun backing up 8 TB with consumer backup software to avoid that pain.

      1. Charles 9

        Re: Cue the pain in 2.0001 years

        It would take a little time, yes, but if you do the big stuff early on, throw in some erasure coding to deal with bit rot, a two-drive rotation should provide reasonable protection. I do this now with a pair of 5TB drives.

      2. P. Lee

        Re: Cue the pain in 2.0001 years

        Maybe the 8tb is the backup for the network.

  7. I Like Heckling Silver badge

    Still waiting for 6TB prices to fall

    I've been holding of waiting for prices to fall on 6TB drives... so the more 8TB drives that hit the consumer market the better.

    Why would I need that much space... Because I run a mediaserver that currently has 14TB (1x 4TB, 2x3TB and 2x 2TB plus 250GB SSD) and is running out of room. Even redoing bluray/dvd stuff into HEVC is only a very short term solution and running 6 drives (inc SSD for OS) means that I can't actually use the bluray drive on the mediaserver (so use the main desktop instead for ripping).

    I need to replace the last 2TB drives with something substantial so I can free up that bluray drive again... can't add a PCI-E SATA card as all of the slots are in use already and I'm not replacing the motherboard anytime soon to give me more SATA sockets.

    My media is expanding quicker than my storage and a 4TB drive isn't big enough any more.

    The most I've ever paid for a hard drive is around £95... but ever since the flood a few years back that hit productions. Prices have remained inflated long after production is back at full tilt.

    Ideally I'd love to pick up a bulk loads of 8TB drives but if I had that kind of money I'd rebuild the mediaserver add a couple of extra 5TB drives and use the change to upgrade my main gaming rig instead.

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