......and just how is the drone or driverless truck going to post a letter through a letterbox?
Royal Mail mulls drones for rural deliveries
The Royal Mail's chief exec has envisioned a future with drone deliveries and driverless vans. Jumping enthusiastically onto the airborne parcel bandwagon, Moya Greene told the CBI's annual conference she'd "love to see" UAVs taking on rural delivery services to "more remote places where you don’t have to deliver too much". …
COMMENTS
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 11:57 GMT Cuddles
@Martin 47
"and just how is the drone or driverless truck going to post a letter through a letterbox?"
Given that most deliveries apparently consist of throwing a package on the floor, outside, in the rain, in full view of a public footpath, with no attempt to knock on the door or leave any notification that a delivery has been made, I don't see how drones could possibly make things any worse. I guess it could go out of control, smash through my window and set the house on fire, but at least then they'd have actually done their fucking job and delivered the thing.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 18:12 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: @Martin 47
"...throwing a package on the floor, outside, in the rain, in full view of a public footpath..."
You k now, some of you people seem to live in some really shitty places with really shitty delivery services. Maybe I just have exceptional levels of charm which engenders the best in people but I've only had one single problem with a delivery and that was Yodel. They held up a telly for 3 days in a depot on the other side of the UK for some unknown reason despite having been paid for a next day delivery.
The local posty is very accommodating and knows which neighbours are "safe" to leave parcels with. If we aren't in and no one can take it in or needs signing for we always get a card through the door and pick it next day down at the local office.
Maybe the problems are caused by living in the big cities where everyone always seems to be in such a hurry all the time and being a postman is seen as a menial short term job instead of job to be done well. Maybe the prime cause is massively expensive housing so the lower paid workers who are needed can't afford to live there and desperately need to move on and up. My little 3 bed house would easily be worth 10x or more in certain parts of London.
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Wednesday 11th November 2015 11:41 GMT Cuddles
Re: @Martin 47
"Maybe the problems are caused by living in the big cities where everyone always seems to be in such a hurry all the time and being a postman is seen as a menial short term job instead of job to be done well. Maybe the prime cause is massively expensive housing so the lower paid workers who are needed can't afford to live there and desperately need to move on and up. My little 3 bed house would easily be worth 10x or more in certain parts of London."
Given that I live in a small rural town, it seems unlikely London is to blame. In fact, when I did live in a big city (Birmingham rather than London), I had far fewer problems with deliveries. Although most likely because anything left outside would be stolen within 30 seconds so even the worst delivery companies weren't stupid enough to try it. As for the "local posty", that's probably a large part of the problem - parcels are generally not delivered by the local posty.
The other main part of the problem is that none of them give a fuck because as far as they're concerned we're not their customers, the people paying for the delivery are. You can't complain about their service and you can't choose a different provider, all you can do is complain to whoever you ordered something from and hope they bother to pass it on.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
......and just how is the drone or driverless truck going to post a letter through a letterbox?
The US is *way* ahead of you and has been extensively testing in regions that won't get the politicians into trouble when things go wrong (and they do). They simply arm the drones, so they just create a new letterbox that can accommodate even the largest parcel. All Royal Mail has to do to adopt this is learn how to spell "collateral damage"...
/sarcasm
Bootnote: the kind of places Royal Mail has trouble delivering to also happen to have the worst possible weather for flying but I guess that's hard to fathom from an air-conditioned office.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:47 GMT Synonymous Howard
To be fair posties do suffer more than most when it comes to dog bites ...
"Over 2,960 postmen and women were attacked across the UK by dogs from April 2014 to April 2015 some leading to a permanent disabling injury. While the number of attacks has fallen by 10 per cent nationally from the previous year after the change in legislation and greater understanding through our dog awareness campaigns, it still remains unacceptably high and we are committed to driving this down further."
[ http://www.royalmailgroup.com/customers/customer-commitment/preventing-dog-attacks ]
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 16:07 GMT James Hughes 1
Re: To be fair posties do suffer more than most when it comes to dog bites ...
In a previous life, I used to deliver coal. One of the guys I worked with was having problems with a Jack Russell - kept biting him. SO the customer was phoned before deliveries to ask them to keep the dog indoor.
Of course, they couldn't be arsed, not realising that the coalie has 25kg of rock on his shoulders. Next time the dog bit him on the ankle, he dropped the coal, almost by accident.
You can fill in the rest.
Posties, sadly, don't have the nuclear option.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 11:44 GMT Bc1609
Re: Jumping enthusiastically onto the airborne parcel bandwagon..
Given that she's talking about rural areas, I think "I shot it" will work perfectly well.
"You do know that there are more guns in the country than there are in the city? Everyone and their mums is packin' round 'ere!"
"Like who?"
"Farmers."
"Who else?"
"Farmers' mums."
-Hot Fuzz, 2007.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 11:43 GMT chivo243
Driverless truck
And what happens when there is nobody at home to receive the delivery? Or if it's gramps in a wheelchair and hasn't crossed the front door threshold since his last heart attack?
I want one of these high paying jobs where you can spout diarrhea out of your mouth and the people below you that want to keep their job eat it up and ask for more!
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 19:06 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: Driverless truck
Considering the postal union I'd expect a driver-less vehicle to have to be fully "supervised" by a fully qualified driver/postie who'll probably get paid extra if s/he has to actually get out of the vehicle to hand over mail or drop "while you were out" cards.
Meanwhile, the marketing wonks who all have iPhones will be moving towards the abolition of "while you were out" cards and switch to email alerts because "well doesn't everyone have an iPhone?"
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 11:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
Solving the wrong problem
This is the same post office that seems unable to supply its delivery staff with electric bicycles or tricycles. Other countries seem able to supply postal workers with a range of small delivery vehicles - here we are again with them talking about technology which is currently still a fantasy, while failing to do things which would improve deliveries right now.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:55 GMT macjules
Re: Swallows...
Airspeed can also be predicted using a published formula. By inverting this midpoint Strouhal ratio of 0.3 (fA/U ≈ 0.3), Graham K. Taylor et al. show that as a rule of thumb, the speed of a flying animal is roughly 3 times frequency times amplitude (U ≈ 3fA).5
We now need only plug in the numbers:
U ≈ 3fA
f ≈ 15 (beats per second)
A ≈ 0.22 (meters per beat)
U ≈ 3*15*0.22 ≈ 9.9
... to estimate that the airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is 10 meters per second.
(© http://style.org/unladenswallow)
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Adds a whole new meaning to interception
And if those fail they'll load up the 10gauge with buckshot and let fly.
What License?
That are thousands of unlicensed shoutguns in the hands of country folk. The Police know that and often where they are but leave them alone as long as they are used for a bit of local sport. i.e Kill the fox that tries to ravage their hens and the like.
These flying things will become a welcome target for the local hotshots is some parts of the country.
Doome I tell ye, doomed.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:31 GMT The Mole
Drones are clearly a stupid idea. Driverless vans/minibuses on the other hand would make sense. Currently a lot of time is spent with posies driving round to pick up other posties to get them to the next part of their route or resupply then with the next bag to deliver. Driverless vehicles could fulfil this post of the role well. Though electric trikes and the like may also work out cheaper and more environmental.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 14:17 GMT Anonymous Coward
The milkman's horse used to reposition the cart autonomously as the milkman made his house-to-house deliveries along the road. Good for the gardens too.
It is said farmers preferred to go to the local pub on horseback. The horse would get them home when they were too drunk to have driven a car - or even steer the horse.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 19:20 GMT Charles Manning
That was pretty much my grandfather's way of doing things back in 1940s South Africa.
In winter (dry) the horse would get him home from the neighbours no matter how drunk he was.
In summer (wet) he's run the car down the muddy road until it formed deep enough ruts that acted as a Scalextric track to get him home if he just hoofed the petrol.
In the morning grandmother would find him passed out in the stable or garage.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:38 GMT Otto is a bear.
Pros and Cons
There is only one real pro in replacing the posty, and that's reliability. A drone does not get sick, work fixed hours, go on strike, have holidays, spend five minutes talking to old nanny Ogg. Although a drone is bound to be a better driver.
There are an awful lot of cons, a posty is very versatile and can cope with the unexpected, an automated posty will be able to cater for a much smaller number of delivery and collection options, probably needing new collection boxes, possibly even new letter box standards. A posty is not stopped by weather conditions that will render drones useless, or require specialist drones. A drone uses energy when a posty does not. A posty interacts with the community, especially in rural areas.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:59 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Pros and Cons
RM Posties are excellent .. especially around here in the wilds of Derbyshire .. our local ones have a bet to see who can stay out in shorts through winter the longest. Happy peeps and if you actually talk to them they give you better service (which is true of retail and trades peeps as well but that's another story).
I do feel sorry for the townies who don't get consistent posties .. no wait .. actually I don't, it all goes with the territory of 'living' in the big smoke.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 13:08 GMT Tony S
Re: Pros and Cons
"A posty interacts with the community, especially in rural areas."
We had two guys; one went around the village in about 10 seconds, decided that no-one was home and left any letter / parcel at the village shop (which used to have a Post Office counter, but was closed). People would have to guess if something had been delivered. Fortunately Dan and his staff also knew most people and as everyone used the shop, he could hand things over.
The other was a bit better; he knew the numbering sequence (which to be fair was a bit odd) and had a rough idea of who lived where. He would at least try to deliver; but apparently, he was allowed no more than 30 minutes to cover the whole village each day (280 houses in 4 square kilometres).
There was one village not too far away that caused major problems for deliveries. About 1400 people and effectively 3 family names for about 60% of them. Anyone that had moved into the village in the last 100 years was still considered a newcomer!
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 13:52 GMT Prst. V.Jeltz
Re: Pros and Cons
"probably needing new collection boxes, possibly even new letter box standards. "
We need that now! the whole problem with the online shopping revolution is that no ones ever in to recieve parcels. The whole "hand off" is the problem area.
We at least need big parcel bins similar to they used to have for returning video tapes
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 14:31 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Pros and Cons
"[...] possibly even new letter box standards."
When post codes were first introduced it was said that it would never be a success due to being handwritten. In Russia there was a box on the envelope and you joined dots together to make the letters/numbers to ensure it could be machine read.
Presumably the UK sorting system now has no problem with machine reading most people's written post codes?
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 16:16 GMT James Hughes 1
Re: Pros and Cons
They have been reading PC's for years. They used to have OCR's systems at big offices, then print on a ultraviolet bar code that represents a more easily readable barcode for smaller offices. So only the big sites needed the very sophisticated readers, the rest could use cheaper ones.
BP04 barcodes. I wrote the original software (much modified since I suspect) on the industrial ink jet printers used to put them on. Ran at 5m/s, so pretty fast.
This was 15 years ago at least. Probably all different now.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 12:59 GMT DrXym
So what does this driverless van do....
... when it's going down some windy country lane and it encounters a car coming the other way? Does it know to back up to the last point? Does it know the other driver should? How does it know there are points to pull in? How does it negotiate who should do what in each direction.?
And assuming it reaches a delivery point does it just disgorge some parcel on the side of the road, or some storage box? Or wait for someone (if ever) to sign for it? How do they authenticate?
Perhaps they're thinking of using them to automate the movement of packages in some very large sorting facility with a private road joining two bits of it. That's the only feasible use I can see for them.
UAV delivery seems pretty fanciful too. Perhaps it has a part to serve in delivering letters and small packets to remote islands. I don't see what problem it really solves on the mainland that can't be done for less effort by somebody in a van with a route.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 13:17 GMT Craig 2
Re: So what does this driverless van do....
"... when it's going down some windy country lane and it encounters a car coming the other way? Does it know to back up to the last point? Does it know the other driver should? How does it know there are points to pull in? How does it negotiate who should do what in each direction.?"
To be fair, these problems seem to confuse a lot of human drivers too...
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 14:30 GMT PNGuinn
Re: So what does this driverless van do....
...when it meets another driverless van (possibly from a rival...)....
Will these things be armed for their own portection?
How easy will it be to crack the vehicle system and either reroute it to another "preferred" destination or to get it to stop open itself up for a heist in some layby?
Enquiring minds already have the answers....
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 14:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: So what does this driverless van do....
On the Long Mynd this summer I encountered two SUVs (Volvo and BMW) in procession occupied by Brummies who had obviously never been out of town before but clearly felt that they only needed to leave me two feet to get past, and that expecting them to reverse to the pull in a few feet behind was just too difficult. I had to reverse up hill about 50M and then they didn't want to drive past because this time it was them that would have to take the outside. I will take an automated van over that any day.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 13:49 GMT PhilipN
What happened to ...
.. those articulated delivery lorries - parcels only - with triangular-shaped cabs, apex at the front. Triangular because there was one wheel at the tip, two at the back. Turning circle delightfully minuscule back at the sorting office.
We're these electric or is my memory playing tricks?
Those pointy-nose cabs were particularly welcome just before Christmas for obvious reasons.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 14:47 GMT Anonymous Coward
Scammell Mechanical Horse, Scarab, and Townsman vehicles. Childhood memories of the Scarab used by British Rail for the "last mile" delivery of goods. Apparently none were electric though. They could be unstable when turning corners. Google can't find the classic picture from the 1930s of one on its side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scammell_Mechanical_Horse
A wider variety of them:
http://www.mechanical-horse-club.co.uk/Archivist.htm
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 15:46 GMT Haku
"Jumping enthusiastically onto the airborne parcel bandwagon"
I could not continue to read beyond this point because it's just total bullshit, over the top pie-in-the-sky ideas spouted no doubt by someone high up in the company who makes too much money for what they actually do.
I just want Royal Mail to fix the delivery service back to how good it used to be instead of coming up with over-complicated expensive solutions to problems that already have solutions (that they're not willing to entertain) or don't even need fixing in the first bloody place!
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 15:49 GMT BobRocket
classic misdirection
She's talking about future rural drone delivery, what she isn't talking about is the plans to only deliver on rural routes for only 3 days per week instead of 6 like the townies get.
It will then be a small step to variable pricing and the abandonment of the Universal Service.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 16:14 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: classic misdirection
"[,,,] what she isn't talking about is the plans to only deliver on rural routes for only 3 days per week instead of 6 like the townies get."
As RM scrapped the second post delivery then it would not be surprising if they cut domestic deliveries to 3 a week. They could plead that urgent communication is now the province of the internet.
Even a 1st class delivery between major towns is now starting to take two days - one recently took nearly a week. No one would notice the difference if they sent out half the 1st/2nd Class/junk leaflet deliveries on alternate days. Timed Special Deliveries come on a separate van these days anyway.
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Tuesday 10th November 2015 20:41 GMT allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
Drones? Boring.
British Rail holds a patent on a flying saucer, powered by nuclear fusion and driven by lasers! Now that's a delivery system!
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Monday 15th February 2016 11:11 GMT BongoJoe
"more remote places where you don’t have to deliver too much".
Er, when we lived in a remote cottage we were receiving more post, more packages and the like because we had to resort to buying everything on-line. This included buying pet food, various items of groceries, books, bits for the Freelander (mostly fire extinguishers as it happens) and just about everything other than diesel for for the aforementioned firetrap.
It was a rare day that the postman or courier didn't come with a delivery for us.