back to article Windows 10 growth stalls during October

If it's the first Monday of the month, then it's time for our monthly look at desktop operating system market share data from StatCounter and Netmarketshare. This month the news is mixed for the main player, Microsoft, because while Windows 10's market share is growing its rate of growth is slowing. StatCounter has Redmond's …

  1. Your alien overlord - fear me

    Strange how those figures seem to total 90%. To embarressed to mention Linux?

    1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

      Nope. This is usage-weighted share, so Linux isn't in the running at all.

      Here's StatCounter's September 2015 list for all platforms (desktop & mobile). Note also how small the mobile OSes shares are when set beside their desktop rivals (as most interaction with web-based services is via apps, not the browser)...

      46.98 Windows 7

      12.41 Windows 8.1

      8.55 Windows XP

      7.87 OS X, all releases

      6.97 Windows 10

      5.72 iOS, all releases

      2.97 Windows 8.0

      2.68 Android, all releases

      1.77 Unknown OS

      1.69 Windows Vista

      1.58 Linux

      0.37 Chrome OS

      0.09 Windows 2003

      0.09 Playstation

      0.07 Windows 8.1 RT

      0.07 Windows 98

      0.04 Xbox

      0.02 Win2000

      0.01 Nintendo

      0.01 BlackBerry OS

      0.01 Windows CE

      0.02 Other

      (source http://gs.statcounter.com - choose your dataset, and click "download CSV")

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Oh dear another muppet Windows fanboy that doesn't realise the rest of the World has moved on from the 1990's desktop. Fact, Linux based OS's are the most installed on the Planet.

      1. Sir Runcible Spoon
        Linux

        Sir

        Whilst I have been a fan of Linux over the years (and have watched it grow to maturity with some satisfaction) I haven't really used it as a home OS apart from the odd media center and single purpose device (NAS/router/firewall that sort of thing).

        However, I was recently required to build my wife a new PC as her old XP machine was finally dying a death (she wouldn't let me upgrade it in the past due to my apparent inability to keep all her files, but that's another story).

        Due to her predilection for RTS games (Age of Empires/Mythology type stuff) I decided to build her PC with one of my NUC's and a spare Vista licence I had kicking around. Well, I had so much trouble with Vista (turns out to be the only version of Windows that Age of Mythology doesn't like and it was downloading updates for bloody ages - nearly 200 of the fuckers) I decided to go with a flavour of Linux since I didn't want the hassle of a more recent version of Windows and all that upgrade to 10 bollocks - so I bit the bullet and made the effort to get the games working under Wine.

        Well, did all that over the weekend, installed Linux Mint 17 and got the games running under Wine no problem at all - bit of a learning curve, but all re-usable info so it's all good.

        When the NUC was started up after the initial build I actually thought I had missed some important stages out though, the desktop appears in around 5-10 seconds (and I haven't optimised the boot sequence in BIOS yet either). There also appears to be a complete lack of a 'still busy' circle with the mouse pointer when it starts up as well - it's almost as if it's immediately useful.

        Very odd, so I thought I'd test it and run the game under Wine as soon as the screen appeared. Bam, it's just there. Admittedly this is all now on an SSD as well, but even so, it's like magic.

        So, I still have a couple of laptops that run Windows7 and another NUC waiting for an OS - they are going to be built with Linux. Fuck windows...forever...goodbye...good riddance.

        It was a *lot* more hassle building a windows machine than it was a Linux machine, and it plays games too. It's a lot faster to boot, is immediately useable, and appears to make better use of the hardware resources. Oh, and it was free (as in totally, no strings attached).

        The line has been crossed, it's now just a question of how long it takes for Joe public and business to twig.

        The more people use it, and switch over and discover how much easier it is these days, and how good the drivers are etc. the more publishers will program for it, the more attractive it will be. I know most people don't do the research thing, and it took me all of about 20 minutes to decide which flavour (and which topping) I wanted or would be most suitable for my needs, but how many people know that about Windows?

        I feel like a weight has been lifted off me, it must be all those $$$$$$'s that M$ won't get their grubby little mitts on anymore.

        Consider me converted.

        1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

          Re: Sir

          Similar to my experiences in recent years, Linux installs with less pain than a typical machine without the correct pre-configured Windows OME image to install from (which users almost never saved when they had the chance). Less dicking around with updates as well.

          And yes, I have suffered the exasperation of re-installing Vista to help a friend and it was crushingly slow to get and apply updates. After 3 hours I went home and told him to reboot it in the morning.

          To be fair, installing an enterprise copy of Win 7 on recent hardware was no major trouble, but still slower than typical Linux install and try as I might, I could not get it to go from a USB stick. So it had to be a DVD written and temporary DVD reader to get it to boot and then install 7.

          Maybe Win 10 has solved the USB boot and install process? Perhaps I shall never know care...

        2. Pompous Git Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Sir

          "Consider me converted."

          Ditto... Have an upvote!

  2. Bob Vistakin
    Facepalm

    8 was worse than Vista, but is 10 worse than 8 for a different reason?

    Two words: Forced "updates".

  3. Tromos

    Obvious innit?

    Of course people are hanging on to XP. It saves having to deal with the dreaded GWX.

    1. Stuart 22

      Re: Obvious innit?

      Just back from a Powerpoint Presentation on a big screen that began with the boot up sequence. Yep, XP. I see it often XP in our local GP practice - connected to my medical records.

      My problem with it is now such an open hackfest vector for recruitment into bots and stuff. Hence every connected XP machine not paying the MS penalty tax is a deadly danger to the rest of us who have the sense to use a supported OS whatever the flavour.

      Maybe H&S should close them all down?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Obvious innit?

        "My problem with it is now such an open hackfest vector for recruitment into bots and stuff."

        Don't know why you're worried about that, the Govt will sell you the patient data if you want it.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Obvious innit? @Stuart 22

        I assume you drive the very latest car, because failing to do so makes you an accident waiting to happen...

        So far this year every single machine, I've had to rebuild due to the destructive effects of malware has been a Win7 or 8 machine, even though the number of XP users I support out numbers Win7 and Win8. The last time I had to deal with malware on XP was in 2009...

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    Plenty more to come

    "Fall Update" to Windows 10 will ship around Nov 10, which will be the catalyst for peeps who always wait for SP1 and the sales of new kit with Windows 10 installed may nudge-upwards after Thanksgiving/Black Friday.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Plenty more to come

      Eadon, have you been bribed to turn ?

    2. bobgameon

      Re: Plenty more to come

      I don't think the fall update is going to be much help with these numbers. I expect big jumps when

      a) Edge gets extension support.

      b) They finally fix the one drive sync client.

      c) When the one year free upgrade program is about to run out.

      I for one upgraded to 10 on july 29th but have told everyone around me to wait till june 2016.

  5. Arctic fox
    WTF?

    " Folks using that venerable OS to cruise the web"

    People still have XP facing the net? See icon.

    1. frank ly

      Re: " Folks using that venerable OS to cruise the web"

      I was very happy using XP for many years. It did everything I needed it to do and it did it quckly and quietly without fuss on my old laptop. I can understand why some people like to keep it going though I realise that it no longer gets security updates. I do remember that just before Win 7 was released, XP got a load of updates that made it really, really slow and so I felt that I 'had to' move on to Win 7 on a newer cheap laptop.

      Maybe the people still running XP blocked out all updates except for security updates and run it in a cautious and technically/security aware manner?

      (I avoided any further Windows 'upgrade' experiences.)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: " Folks using that venerable OS to cruise the web"

      >People still have XP facing the net?

      So you're running XP with firefox. You probably don't download and install stuff, otherwise you'd have done so for your OS.

      What has changed since the days when XP was supported?

      1. Naselus

        Re: " Folks using that venerable OS to cruise the web"

        "What has changed since the days when XP was supported?"

        Quite a lot, if you're talking security. That's how arms races tend to work.

      2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: "What has changed since the days when XP was supported?"

        A few un-patched nasties such as the kernel font-rendering and similar. They don't need any real interaction to do your machine in.

        There are lots of good reasons to keep XP machines going, but internet access ain't one of them!

  6. GregC

    Interested to see how this turns out...

    This should be interesting over the next few months. MS seem to be getting increasingly desperate to shovel W10 out by any means necessary. I'm really curious to see how many of us there actually are saying a firm 'no' to it - sitting in my little bubble of like minded techie types, my view of what's happening out there is probably a bit skewed.

    And yeah, wouldn't hurt to know the Linux share too.

    1. Tim Ryan

      Re: Interested to see how this turns out...

      Nonsense, while I don't agree with the upgrade method, 10 is the best Windows ever. I moved my hardware over to 10 a year ago and even the ctp versions were an improvement on 8.1

    2. Ye Gads

      Re: Interested to see how this turns out...

      Linux is at 1.55%. This puts it behind Windows Vista (2.46%) and "Other" (2.8%).

      This is from StatCounter and is their September 2015 numbers.

      1. alain williams Silver badge

        Re: Interested to see how this turns out...

        Partly because Linux is not counted properly. A week ago I bought a new laptop, it came with Windows 8.1 installed; I immediately upgraded it to Linux Mint - but it will be counted in the statistics as another MS Windows 8.1 installation.

        I will be shortly replacing MS WIndows XP on my sister's laptop with Linux Mint, this will not be officially recorded.

        Linux is under counted, by how much I cannot say.

        1. Don Dumb
          Stop

          Re: Interested to see how this turns out...

          @alain Williams - "Partly because Linux is not counted properly. A week ago I bought a new laptop, it came with Windows 8.1 installed; I immediately upgraded it to Linux Mint - but it will be counted in the statistics as another MS Windows 8.1 installation."

          I don't think that's true, I beleive the stats are based on web usage, so if you didn't use 8.1 to access the web* but did use Mint then only Linux would be counted. The problem with these stats is that it can't count those machines not connected to the net. If anything that means WinXP (many manchines unplugged from the net) is most under represented.

          * - or at least the site(s) that are used to collect the stats

          1. GrumpenKraut

            Re: Interested to see how this turns out...

            Another stats page (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp) puts Linux at 5.6 % as of September 2015, figures for October should show up soon.

          2. Richard Plinston

            Re: Interested to see how this turns out...

            > I beleive the stats are based on web usage,

            They are based on web usage of visiting particular self-selected sites which include javascript in some or all of their pages. It also requires that the client allows javascript to run as it is the client browser that sends the information directly to the collector.

            If sites that are of interest to Windows users but not to Linux users predominate the sites that include the javascript then Linux will show low statistics. If javascript blockers are more often used by Linux users then Linux will have low statistics.

            I doubt that any of my Linux machines are ever recorded at all.

    3. inmypjs Silver badge

      Re: Interested to see how this turns out...

      "MS seem to be getting increasingly desperate to shovel W10 out by any means necessary"

      Yes, because the sooner they decide they have got as many by the balls as they are going to, the sooner they can start squeezing.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Headmaster

    A pedant writes...

    The definition of 'stall' is to stop or cause to stop making progress. Windows 10 still making progress, so 'slows' is actually the correct term. See teacher.

    1. chivo243 Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: A pedant writes...

      When an airplane stalls, it still makes some progress, until it stops, or un-stalls

      yes, yes, my coat...

      1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

        Re: A pedant writes...

        It doesn't stop as such, it starts to progress along the vertical axis only...

        1. Vic

          Re: A pedant writes...

          Since we're doing pedantry, ...

          It doesn't stop as such, it starts to progress along the vertical axis only

          That's not entirely true; what happens is that the wings stop producing life and start producing drag. This doesn't mean you go straight down - certain aircraft[1] flutter down quite gently in a full stall. Some bite...

          The pont is - you're likely still travelling (partly) horizontally, even when fully stalled.

          Vic.

          [1] Part of the BGA Glider Certificate, for example, requires demonstration of the "mushing stall", wherein the wings are stalled, but the ailerons and rudder still work. I didn't see the point, myself, but they required me to fly it.

          1. hplasm
            Happy

            Re: A pedant writes...

            "Since we're doing pedantry, ..."

            Famous last words... "...the wings stop producing life..."

            I'm sure there's a word for this.

            1. Vic

              Re: A pedant writes...

              I'm sure there's a word for this.

              "Typo" was the original word, but I figured it wasn't worth correcting, what with the extra meaning :-)

              Vic.

          2. Richard Plinston

            Re: A pedant writes...

            > That's not entirely true; what happens is that the wings stop producing life and start producing drag. This doesn't mean you go straight down - certain aircraft[1] flutter down quite gently in a full stall. Some bite...

            s/life/lift/

            No, the wings do not _stop_ producing lift. They, most often, continue producing lift (as indicated by 'flutter') but produce less than required for sustained flight.

            No, they do not _start_ producing drag. They produce drag all the time they move through the air. They produce a much increased lift/drag ratio.

            1. Vic

              Re: A pedant writes...

              No, they do not _start_ producing drag. They produce drag all the time they move through the air. They produce a much increased lift/drag ratio.

              There's some drag in unstalled flight. There is a lot more drag once the wing has stalled[1]. It's not just lift/drag; the amount of drag increases sharply once the wing has stalled[2].

              Vic.

              [1] You can see a typical drag curve here. Note how the drag coefficient rises sharply as the AoA goes through the stall point.

              [2] It's a big part of why a developed spin is self-sustaining; the stalled inner wing is much more draggy than the outer wing, leading to yaw, meaning that the inner wing has a higher AoA than the outer, meaning that it is more deeply stalled than the outer (which probably isn't stalled), meaning it is more draggy, ...

          3. PNGuinn
            Coat

            Re: A pedant writes...

            "wings stop producing life"

            Shouldn't that be "wings stop sustaining life"?

            1. Vic

              Re: A pedant writes...

              Shouldn't that be "wings stop sustaining life"?

              No, it should have been "wings stop producing lift", but I'd missed the edit window by the time I noticed.

              Stalling an aircraft is only dangerous when you're very close to the ground...

              Vic.

              1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                Re: A pedant writes...

                "Stalling an aircraft is only dangerous when you're very close to the ground..."

                There ya go, and I thought it was only dangerous when the aircraft hits the ground :-)

                As the guy who jumped off the Empire State Building said as he passed the 13th floor: "So far, so good!"

              2. Richard Plinston

                Re: A pedant writes...

                > Stalling an aircraft is only dangerous when you're very close to the ground...

                Not necessarily true. Or, more to the point, higher altitude does not make stalling 'safe'.

                For example some high-tailed aircraft (such as the Gloster Javelin), when stalled, can enter a super-stall where the tailplane is blanketed and there is no ability to alter pitch leading to an inability to recover regardless of height.

                1. Vic

                  Re: A pedant writes...

                  For example some high-tailed aircraft (such as the Gloster Javelin), when stalled, can enter a super-stall where the tailplane is blanketed and there is no ability to alter pitch leading to an inability to recover regardless of height.

                  The Javelin is certainly a tricky aircraft.

                  The Pilot Notes give the recommended recovery method: use aileron roll to induce a spin, and then recover from the spin in the usual manner.

                  I'll dig out a copy next time I'm at he museum and post the official text.

                  Vic.

                  1. Vic

                    Re: A pedant writes...

                    I'll dig out a copy next time I'm at he museum

                    Well, I've not got the pilot notes yet, but I did check this with my CFI[1]. Apparently, "it's another crap bloody aeroplane", but when pressed for more detail, "you roll it and put in full throttle, and see what happens".

                    I don't think he likes it...

                    Vic.

                    [1] I won't name-drop, but he is a fairly well-known test pilot.

      2. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        Re: A pedant writes...

        The aeroplane doesn't "stall"; its engine does.

        1. Kubla Cant

          Re: A pedant writes...

          The aeroplane doesn't "stall"; its engine does.

          Wrong.

          "A stall is a condition in aerodynamics and aviation wherein the angle of attack increases beyond a certain point such that the lift begins to decrease." [Wikipedia, I'm afraid]

          Stalling of an engine is a different phenomenon entirely.

          1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

            Re: A pedant writes...

            Learn something new every day. Thanks.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Who here has these sites blocked?

    come on now it won't hurt to tell...

    IMHO, anyone with half a brain (viz 99.99% of the readers here) will block these sutes as a matter of course.

    So how accurate are these stats? Guesses on a pin head anyone?

    1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      Re: Who here has these sites blocked?

      Angels, head of a pin...

      Unless you know exactly how the data was gathered and processed (will it blend?) any statistic is usually worthless/meaningless.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: any statistic is usually worthless/meaningless

        When your stats are based on millions of unique connections, although they may not be perfect, there still can be meaning inferred from them.

        In this case, we can argue about exactly how much the slowing is, but apparently, that there is a slowing is not in doubt.

    2. bobgameon

      Re: Who here has these sites blocked?

      While i do agree most of the readers here might have these websites blocked but all the readers here represent around 0.00001% of the PC market. And such a small percentage can be chalked up to statistical errors.

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: Who here has these sites blocked?

        > might have these websites blocked

        It is not just whether users have the sites blocked, it is also whether particular groups of users visit particular self-selected sites.

        It may be that the majority of the sites that include statistics gathering javascript are of no, or little, interest to, say, Linux users. Conversely, sites that are of interest to that group may not have this implanted code. I see no evidence that this site has any visits recorded in the statistics.

  9. hfo1

    OSX

    Interesting how the OSX numbers are so different, not only absolute numbers but also trends. I can see how a different methodology might produce a different overall number but one set rising and the other going down?

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This month the new is mixed...

    I'm not sure if that was supposed to read 'the news is mixed' or 'the new is mixed with the old'.

  11. Mage Silver badge

    With Xbox and Windows Mobile users to come

    Really they are irrelevant in looking at x86 laptop/desktop/notebook OS market share.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tricky Dicky

    "because while Windows 10's market share is growing its rate of growth is slowing."

    I read once, the it was President Richard Nixon who first in invoked the second derivative in the public sphere, when referring to the declining rate of inflation.

    Useless factoid ... or not

  13. jason 7

    XP

    Would say the 11+% of XP is made up of 50% old codgers who never read a tech article and just use it for Ebay or sending pictures to their friends in the care home and the other 50% is companies running old legacy software that either cant be moved to a newer OS...or they lost the installation media/support years ago.

    1. Philip Lewis

      Re: XP

      The problem with people who think that their particular cabbage patch is representative of all cabbage patches, is that they are wrong by definition.

      Travel to asia some time (or the seriously 3rd world), where internet access via internet cafes is still very common and very much a normal activity. In these cafes you will invariably find XP machines that are at some "state", and reset on every boot. I do not recommend accessing you bank from these machines, but for surfing and webmail they are OK. I usually install AVAST immediately on boot, to kill most of whatever has managed to get into the systems, before using email or whatever it is that took me there.

      XP will be around for a while, despite the fact that windows 7 is vastly superior and has been wholly and totally compromised with custom boot loaders with real OEM keys.

    2. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: XP

      Plenty of XP will be home use people on limited budget, where what that PC does is "good enough" for their purposes & so will not upgrade until forced to when their old PC dies.

      1. Andy Non Silver badge

        Re: XP

        I've still got an old XP desktop. It deliberately no longer has a web connection, so won't be included in any stats; but is still used quite often and will continue to be used until the day it finally dies. The rest of the computers in the household run Linux Mint.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: XP

          Over here, real work (AutoCad) is done on a disconnected Win2K box.

          It's faster than Usain Bolt and as stable as Gibraltar.

          For all things internet I moved away from Win7 and started using Linux (Debian 8.2) a while ago.

          It's slow; it consistently breaks the keyboard; it can't handle Flash (I play one online game, hence I need the Flash); It never boots up twice with the same settings; and if you try to remove some of the bundled crapware, it breaks something essential to the system.

          Linux s*cks. Big time.

          I'm not command-line savvy, and I couldn't care less. Linux is overly complicated for anyone who's not a command-line expert. And as for RTFM: been there, done that. To no avail.

          And for the Linux fanbois: no, I'm not on the payroll of MicroSlurp.

          1. GregC

            Re: XP

            Linux s*cks. Big time.

            Correction. Your Linux experience sucks big time. That's a shame.

            My Linux experience has been pretty seamless - I dual boot the latest Mint and it hasn't missed a beat. I haven't needed to drop to a command line once*. All my hardware works. Your mileage, clearly, varies...

            *I have chosen to use a command line a couple of times, because it's quicker. Just as I would in Windows for some tasks.

          2. Chemist

            Re: XP

            "it can't handle Flash (I play one online game, hence I need the Flash); "

            Don't know where you got that from . Any number of people here will confirm that if you want to it will run flash.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: XP

              "Don't know where you got that from . Any number of people here will confirm that if you want to it will run flash."

              For some reason (even a clean install) my Debian system (and adding Flash afterwards) grinds to a halt when running Flash. Posting any kind of question about it on Linux forums invariably returns the "RTFM". No wonder their desktop market share is getting nowhere.

              The kids otoh are playing Flash games for days on end on their Win7* machines, without any problems at all.

              * All of them Win10 disabled, BTW

          3. Chemist

            Re: XP

            "For all things internet I moved away from Win7 and started using Linux (Debian 8.2) a while ago."

            Why ? - you seem to be having a lot of trouble. Are you sure that this isn't an attempt by an AC to spread some FUD about Linux. It certainly doesn't explain why you continue to use Linux.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: XP

              @Chemist "Why ? - you seem to be having a lot of trouble. Are you sure that this isn't an attempt by an AC to spread some FUD about Linux. It certainly doesn't explain why you continue to use Linux."

              I /am/ having a lot of trouble. However, I don't like the path Microsoft has chosen, and that is why I went the Linux route. There simply are no alternatives -none that will work on my hardware anyway- for internet usage. Open source is the way to go and I'm fully aware of that.

              And yes, I have tried out various distro's, but at the end of the day it all boils down to the same: it's to much hassle to get it the way I want it.

              So: I'm sticking with Debian and I'll probably learn some things along the way. But for a non-programmer it's a steep curve.

              1. Chemist

                Re: XP

                "I /am/ having a lot of trouble. However, I don't like the path Microsoft has chosen,"

                Well I'm sorry for that but I'd repeat the advice from Chika and use a more forgiving distro like Mint or my usual choice of OpenSUSE. But I reiterate flash isn't a problem usually and most installs don't need cli work.

              2. PNGuinn
                Linux

                Re: XP @ AC

                I'm not a programmer either - but I have a background in engineering and electronics.

                I personally entered the PC world with win 3.11 for workgroups. I was fairly impressed - it did what I wanted although it crashed a bit. Scratching around, I got the impression it was probably largely due to graphics drivers. No internet connection in those days and no modem to connect to Diamond Stealth's bulletin board. No easy update. Yup, that far back.

                I thought the documentation was naff. Bought the dos and w3.11 resource kits at great expense, but found that, while an improvement, they seemed to be on a "need to know" (= what ms wanted me to know) basis. (Spoilt by a full set of VAX manuals)

                The need to access the net meant a new box - with w98se. And there my problems started. Knowing nothing about Linux, in desperation I tried a magazine cd (= pre-release version) of Mandrake Linux. PC sorted.

                I agree with you that ms have taken a dead end route. It seems to me that from the way they are pushing w10 there has to be a hidden agenda. Either they have decended into some form of religious mania about w10 or they are going to move to a subscription model shortly after the free offer period ends (and the EULA has been quietly auto-updated). Personally I can see no other options.

                I DO value my privacy and the privacy and security of my data. I own my hardware. I've come to the view that I also need to "OWN" the software including the os. Otherwise I no longer truly own my data. With the GPL and similar licences I have access to the source code and no onerous restrictions on what I use it for or where and how often I install it. The fact that I have that "right" in common with countless others is a bonus. My needs are not that specialised. I may not be able to hack the source but there are almost certainly others out there who have the same needs / problems as me and can. My data is far less likely to be "orphaned".

                One problem that you may face is that Linux does not support every bit of hardware - some manufacturers just don't cooperate with open source. The best thing to do here on in is to check first for hardware compatability before the purchase of new hardware. Many hardware compatability lists are out there, together with workarounds. Google can be your friend.

                If your hardware is particularly new, Debian Stable may not be the best choice for now, as the kernel will not be the latest. Mint may be a better choice. Try a live cd before you install.

                Desktops. With ms you have to like it or lump it. With Linux there are more window managers / desktop environments than you can shake several sticks at. Personally, I'm using XFCE. - Simple, lightweight and stable. Some desktops are, frankly, IMNSHO, weird.

                Read the Debian Installation manual carefully at least a couple of times and try to understand the options. The installer is incredibly versatile. It's a bit like a high end camera - from smile recognition point-and-shoot to full manual control. The art is controlling the bits you need and letting the installer do the rest automagically.

          4. Chika

            Re: XP

            Over here, real work (AutoCad) is done on a disconnected Win2K box.

            It's faster than Usain Bolt and as stable as Gibraltar.

            Agreed. W2K provided a good server and workstation platform and much of the real advances that Microsoft could build on. I still have a soft spot for it.

            For all things internet I moved away from Win7 and started using Linux (Debian 8.2) a while ago.

            Debian isn't a bad system but it's one of those distros that I tend to advise new Linux users stay clear of until they've had a chance at working on something a little less fraught. I use openSUSE myself and while I think it's a great system, again I'd not advise its use by anyone that hasn't used Linux before. It's the reason why so many folk here have been posting that they've been looking at or have moved to Mint. It gives you everything that you might want from Ubuntu or Debian but without some of the hassle that Debian or the corporate fallout that Ubuntu gives you.

            But it's your choice, of course!

            It's slow; it consistently breaks the keyboard; it can't handle Flash (I play one online game, hence I need the Flash); It never boots up twice with the same settings; and if you try to remove some of the bundled crapware, it breaks something essential to the system.

            Hence choosing a distro more suited to your own talents and to the use and hardware that you have to hand. And Linux generally handles Flash with no problems (beyond those that Adobe admits to). I use it myself. So do many others.

            Linux s*cks. Big time.

            Every OS sucks!

            I'm not command-line savvy, and I couldn't care less. Linux is overly complicated for anyone who's not a command-line expert. And as for RTFM: been there, done that. To no avail.

            Sadly this is a good example of the sort of FUD that has been around pretty much since Linux first came out. It worked in favour of Microsoft to an extent even though it becomes necessary sometimes to conveniently forget that Microsoft's systems still need to do the same thing on occasion.

            The problem is that too many people expect to be able to plug their computers in and use them without RTFM. Actually really reading it and understanding it. If they switch on without reading then find that the system doesn't do what they want it to do then it's the system's fault somehow. It's a bit like somebody getting behind the wheel of a car without first taking lessons then blaming the car when it either doesn't go or crashes into a tree because that somebody doesn't know how to start it or steer correctly.

            And for the Linux fanbois: no, I'm not on the payroll of MicroSlurp.

            You don't have to be. What you didn't say was why you decided to move away from W7 and why you chose Debian 8.2 with no Linux or CLI experience. Or why RTFM did not avail. But then if, as you mention, you couldn't care less, then what was the point of installing Debian in the first place?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: XP

              @Chika

              "What you didn't say was why you decided to move away from W7 and why you chose Debian 8.2 with no Linux or CLI experience. Or why RTFM did not avail. But then if, as you mention, you couldn't care less, then what was the point of installing Debian in the first place?"

              As I mentioned in another comment; I don't like the way Microsoft is going. I'm going the Linux way because I have no alternatives for web usage. By 2020 something, when Win7 will be end-of-life, I want to have it under my belt.

              Tried various distro's. From what I read on the 'net, Debian was the more stable of the distro's. Stability is what I want; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. It's "start menu" is also the simplest imho.

              Navigating a KDE or whatever "start menu" is a PITA.

              Long story short: I'd like a Linux OS with a "no bells and whistles" look and feel (think Win2k) graphical environment where I alone can decide what programs I want to run. I don't want a 250 MB e-mail-and-calendar-and-weather 'app' installed by default. I don't want integrated IRC clients, I don't want GIMP, (industry-standard PhotoShop is running fine on the Win2K box, thank you), I dont need 500 locales sitting on my HD, I only use one. Had a go at removing the various packages, only to discover this wil break the system. Yet another clean install.

              I'm convinced Linux in it's core is a good system, but -as mentioned before- the learning curve is steep, especially for someone without programming skills, and the distros come with too many bundled programs, mostly all of them I have no need for.

              If you care to point me in the right direction, I will gladly try some stuff out.

              1. Chika

                Re: XP

                As I mentioned in another comment; I don't like the way Microsoft is going. I'm going the Linux way because I have no alternatives for web usage. By 2020 something, when Win7 will be end-of-life, I want to have it under my belt.

                As with any computer operating system, simply installing it and expecting it to work isn't likely to work out. I started using Linux myself on the back of extensive training in SVR4 Unix and even then there were considerable changes I had to learn to allow the use of Linux, not to mention a few dead ends - the first Linux I installed for myself was Caldera, for example. OK, that might date me a bit!

                Tried various distro's. From what I read on the 'net, Debian was the more stable of the distro's. Stability is what I want; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. It's "start menu" is also the simplest imho.

                The thing is that you seem to have had one right idea in that trying different distros often provides a good way of deciding what is right, but then went with the "I was told on the web" approach which can be a bit hit and miss depending on what you read and where. The biggest problem is that too many distros develop fanbois of their own who will talk up their own distro and might even trash talk other distros in the process (it's one reason why you'll often see my ever present quote; "Linux is NOT <distro>").

                Navigating a KDE or whatever "start menu" is a PITA.

                It can be. I tend to suggest that, first of all, you need to remember that this is NOT a Windows GUI that you are dealing with. Next, remember that many GUIs that you find on Linux are skinnable, so they can be made to look like whatever you want - a popular skin used on a couple of the better known GUIs attempt to make it look like XP, if that floats your boat.

                I'm a long term KDE user, and one suggestion that often works for me is to use the "classic" menu - on KDE3 and KDE4 you do this by right-clicking the K Menu icon (what Windows users call the "start" button) then clicking "Switch to KDE Menu style" (well, that's how it looks on openSUSE - ISTR it works that way on a number of other distros too). Alternatively try one of the other GUIs - I rather like XFCE, for example.

                Long story short: I'd like a Linux OS with a "no bells and whistles" look and feel (think Win2k) graphical environment where I alone can decide what programs I want to run. I don't want a 250 MB e-mail-and-calendar-and-weather 'app' installed by default. I don't want integrated IRC clients, I don't want GIMP, (industry-standard PhotoShop is running fine on the Win2K box, thank you), I dont need 500 locales sitting on my HD, I only use one. Had a go at removing the various packages, only to discover this wil break the system. Yet another clean install.

                Fair enough. Mint XFCE would probably do here.

                If you want to get more adventurous though, you could also try openSUSE - I tend to use 13.1 but they are currently counting down to the release of Leap 42.1. The KDE version of this tends to echo some of the better aspects of W2K, especially tools such as YaST which combines much of the configuration of the system into one easily accessed place.

                Both of these distros have pretty large repositories so getting packages is quite simple and installing non-repo software is no harder with these than any other distro.

                There's also CentOS which is heavily based on RedHat Enterprise Linux (RHEL). All of these (and a few other) distros have been covered by El Reg articles at one time or another (Leap 42.1 and Ubuntu's latest were covered fairly recently).

                I'm convinced Linux in it's core is a good system, but -as mentioned before- the learning curve is steep, especially for someone without programming skills, and the distros come with too many bundled programs, mostly all of them I have no need for.

                Unfortunately that's going to happen whatever OS you go for. I've worked with folk that decided to switch to Apple's OS following years of Windows use with the same problem resulting, mostly because they want to do things the same way that they did them on Windows or they don't understand the change in terminology. Linux is no different in that respect, which is why I have often wondered about those folk that protest their hatred of Windows 10 by saying that they will switch to Linux and how they are getting on.

                If you care to point me in the right direction, I will gladly try some stuff out.

                I'd start you off by asking you to RTFM again and possibly looking at a more forgiving distro than Debian. It's not the worst distro in the world and is certainly no Arch or Gentoo, but the reason why such distros as Mint or Ubuntu came into existence in the first place was precisely because people were having so much trouble with older distros like Debian and RedHat.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: XP

                  I'd start you off by asking you to RTFM again and possibly looking at a more forgiving distro than Debian. It's not the worst distro in the world and is certainly no Arch or Gentoo, but the reason why such distros as Mint or Ubuntu came into existence in the first place was precisely because people were having so much trouble with older distros like Debian and RedHat.

                  Upvote for both the considered response and the end suggestion, because Debian is indeed not really for the beginner. Mint XFCE and other XFCE-based distros are indeed as light as you can get them, but if you want to stay with a menu OpenSuSE is probably the best choice (I'm biased here, though, I have been using SuSE for many, many years). However, OpenSuSE is really the opposite of "light" when it comes to what it installs by default.

                  In any case, Debian is NOT going to be the right distro to start with. also because its almost religious stance on only including free code which will not work well for some interfaces..

                  1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

                    Re: XP

                    "the reason why such distros as Mint or Ubuntu came into existence in the first place was precisely because people were having so much trouble with older distros like Debian and RedHat."

                    Funnily enough, when I moved from Ubuntu to Debian stable a year or two back, it was because I was having so much trouble with the former's tendency to include something that wasn't quite ready for prime time, and the thing that really struck me about Debian was that everything started just working again.

                    Well, I say everything, but obviously printing and sound still totally suck. (YMMV...)

                    1. Chika
                      Linux

                      Re: XP

                      Funnily enough, when I moved from Ubuntu to Debian stable a year or two back, it was because I was having so much trouble with the former's tendency to include something that wasn't quite ready for prime time, and the thing that really struck me about Debian was that everything started just working again.

                      I think this is why Mint has climbed in popularity. Ubuntu gained its own popularity as a simple to use system but some of what has been going on more recently has me a little worried that they have abandoned the idea of a simple system. Having said that, I'm not a great fan of either Ubuntu or Mint when it comes to the installation system - they are both too cut down. One of the problems is that you get little opportunity to change the packages installed with your system at the outset - I'm probably spoiled in that respect as a long term openSUSE user which allows quite a bit of selection in the installation.

                      As for printing and sound; the printing side of things always does give a certain amount of trouble IMHO. You have to stick at it.

                      And kill PulseAudio. It solves so many problems. It was, after all, brought to you by the same person that brought us systemd (it seems that Poeterring doesn't actually want to write for Linux but is more interested in writing a virus that corrupts the Linux system from the inside out!)

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: XP

                  @ Chika

                  Most helpful, thanks.

                  I'm off doing some reading on the distro's you mentioned, and burning some ISO's.

                  Cheers

                  1. Captain DaFt

                    Re: XP

                    One further suggestion: http://distrowatch.com/search.php

                    Scroll down to "Search by Distribution Criteria (Advanced Search Form)".

                    If you have a fairly precise idea of what you want, this will help point you at relevant distros.

              2. GrumpenKraut

                Re: XP

                > ...too many bundled programs...

                So do not install them. Even if you do, you should still have a not-too-fat system.

                Here on my computer I have a 27GByte system partition and I _aggressively_ installed even remotely interesting. That is a disk that is now 13 % "full".

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: XP

                  "So do not install them."

                  How?

                  1. PNGuinn
                    Linux

                    Re: XP @AC

                    As I said earlier, study the installer documtation. Speaking as a Debian user here, all installers are different. Depending on how you configure the installer you will get the option to choose what software is installed. You should be able to choose not to install games onto the machine.

                    You mentioned Gnome. It used (version 2...) to be a very highly configurable environment. Personally I hated the"everything drops down from the top" approach, but easily tamed it to a bar on the left hand side and one at the bottom. (You'd probably hate it, but never mind, forgive me.) Version 3 was something else. We know best. Take it or leave it. I left it. I used KDE in my Mandrake days, but that had become too bloated for me. So I went for XFCE. The Debian version uses the standard menu - it'll be fairly comfy for anyone coming from a windoze pre TIFKAM background. There is an alternative menu - the "whisker" menu which Mint uses. Quite nice but I personally prefer the original. It's an addon which I think it is now an option in the latest XFCE. XFCE comes with a small suite of programs - eg a decent file manager -but cannot be called bloated. You can tell Debian to install it instead of Gnome at the beginning of the install.

                    As an aside - there are some relatively tiny distros out there - some with a desktop and suite of usable applications in under 100Mb.

                    Have a look at some of the puppies - Puppy Linux. I don't know what hardware you're trying but if it's 64 bit I would recommend Fatdog. Boots off a live dvd totally in memory. You can mount your HD, usb sticks at will if you need to. A little over 200 Mb. When you shut down it asks if you want to create a save file for next time and where to shove it. I always decline and boot a clean os each time. Great for online banking etc. You can write the iso to a usb stick and boot from that. (It's much quicker, but you may have to introduce some delay in the boot process to allow all your hardware to initialise.) The sheer number of puppies and puplets can be confusing - you'll need to browse several websites to understand the structure of the community around it all. The're a friendly bunch, though.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: XP @AC

                      @PNGuinn

                      Thanks for the info.

                      Followed the -much appreciated- advice others gave me; 6 installs of different distros down the road I'm back. Posting with Debian 8.2. Turns out to be the most user friendly. I did install the non-free Flash, and it seems ok this time, at first glance, mind. OpenSUSE 13.something install went like lightning up to 96%, then it failed to install the grub, which Debian does flawless. Mint didn't give me any info at all, didn't ask any questions apart from insisting on a full disk install. Which is out of the question obviously.

                      As others did mention; it's not a Win2k GUI. Guess I'll need to learn hit and miss.

                      XFCE is totally not my thing and -the classic theme- KDE (live CD versions)... Oh Well [(c) Peter Green: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8RhZDGLEXM]

                      What confuses me the most is that I use Tails -which is Linux- frequently, and I have no trouble at all finding my way. The CD version is about as fast as the current Debian on HDD. My hardware should be capable; 2 identical HP dc5700 boxes. 4 Gigs (=max) RAM. I have a quadcore in a drawer somewhere, but the MB is missing.

                      Bootnotes:

                      Google is not my friend. I tend to steer clear of that monolith as much as I possibly can. Facebook same thing. I don't have an account with either.

                      Debian installer; user-friendly yes, but it does not give me the option _not_ to install certain programs.

                      Win3.11; we're probably from the same era; I'm an electronics engineer -the analog type, with some good ole TTL on the side (7400 series)- and did my early pcb designs with a dos-box you had to feed several 5 1/4 in floppy's -cli, of course- to get going :-)

                      Being an A/C, I'm not entitled to an icon, but have a pint anyway. Cheers.

              3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: XP

                @A/C

                'Navigating a KDE or whatever "start menu" is a PITA.'

                Now you've got me really puzzled. The classic KDE start menu follows the original Win95 design principles quite closely; although I can't say I like the more recent alternative it's not that different to what Windows is throwing out at present.

                Let me run through some of what I do to set up KDE to my liking which may well match what you like about W2K.

                First, right click on what KDE calls the panel but we'll call the task bar for convenience, and click unlock widgets in the popup menu. Click on the classic menu option.

                Then go into the menu and find KDE settings. In Common appearances etc>Application and System Notifications>Launch Feedback click any option you want for Busy Cursor other than that blasted bouncing cursor that's the default.

                These two steps make for a more comfortable environment.

                Whilst you're in settings you might like to go into Workspace Appearance etc>Workspace Appearance>Window Decorations & see if there's something you prefer to the default - Redmond will diminish the difference in appearance between W2K and KDE as will Common appearances etc>Application Appearance >Style.

                Close settings, go to the so-called golden cashew (AKA the golden turd) at the right hand end of the task bar. Click on that & click Add widgets and add a Task manager plus anything else that seems useful. Then lock widgets.

                Click on the golden turd on the top right and select Desktop settings. Change the view to Folder view and Apply. Go back into the golden turd menu noting that settings are now Folde view settings, into settings and choose Location, select Desktop folder and apply again. You can set up the Icons however you please - ordering, snap to grid or whatever.

                You can now save things to the desktop as you wish. If you unlock the widgets again from the task bar right click you can select applications from the main menu with a right click and add them to the desk top and/or task bar.

                This should take you a long way to getting your working environment as you wish.

                I'm not sure about the keyboard - I wonder if that was set up correctly on installation.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: XP

                  @Doctor Syntax

                  Thanks, c/p'd your post for future reference. I'm about to give some of the distros @Chica mentioned a run for their money, in the mean time giving the KDE environment another try.

                  El Reg is the most friendly Linux help forum* on the interwebs so far.

                  *What people might call 'hijacking a thread'.

          5. GrumpenKraut

            Re: XP

            > ... Debian... bundled crapware ...

            Wot? Care to explain? If you consider libraries you do not know "bundled crapware" and uninstall them, that would explain the "breaks something essential".

            Otherwise you may suffer the shitty BIOS syndrome (welcome to the club, then) or have some funny hardware.

            About Flash: "Flash" and "stable" do not mix anywhere. Ever.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: XP

              I'll try and explain.

              Tetris (or whatever the Linux terminology may be) and the rest of the 100+ MB of games bundled with Debian are not my cup of tea. To be more precise: I don't want them on my drive.

              After uninstalling them with the tool Debian provides, I expect the games to be gone, not the graphical environment as a whole.

              Sure, a quick '# apt-get install task-gnome-desktop' brings the GUI back.

              But the games are back too.

              At least Windows (2K, that is) gives you the option _not_ to install them in the first place.

              About Flash; I play one game only. Online, and it's in Flash. Other than that I don't need Flash.

              BIOS? I have reasons to believe it's shitty, yes. But ignorant as I am, I don't want to mess with something that is capable of bricking my machine. Murphy is somewhat of a close relative...

              HTH

          6. PNGuinn
            Linux

            Re: XP - @AC

            "Debian" and "Flash".

            That maybe the source of many of your problems right there. Debian is FIERCELY free - as in its definition of acceptable open source licences. Too fierce for some. That's why, for example, Umbongo and Mint ship with some software installed "out of the box" that Debian doesn't.

            With the vanilla install you've probably got the open source Gnash installed instead. That'll do for some flash files , but not the latest versions of that pile of steaming dogpoo.

            Hell, Debian doesn't even install "non free" firmware that is needed for your hardware by default. It'll warn you during the install, and you can get it from Debian's Nonfree repo and tell the installer to use it. Which could be another reason for your problems. Debian is also (for the released "Stable" version) somewhat behind the bleeding edge. The reason is stability. If you want the very latest install the "Testing" version - probably at least as stable as many distros' "stable" released versions. Or if you're feeling brave, Sid (unstable).

            Personally, I'm a bit of a coward - I use the "stable" version 'cos I need something that "just works" (TM) for my production machines - I need to get work done. I'll play on another box to try things out and learn things.

            The great thing about Debian is the documentation - It's incredibly vast and helpful - but because of its size it takes time to get your head round it all. One problem I've found, though, is that the os is just so stable that I've spent relatively little time with my nose in the docs, so I know far less that I ought to.

    3. Nameless Dread
      Windows

      Re: XP

      ... old legacy software ...

      For instance: Lotus Approach (a Win 7 fail-to-run) goes just fine in Win2k SP4 in a VM.

      Not to mention my QBasic executables, vintage DOS 3.

      Next up will be VirtualBox for Mint so I don't have to keep dodging the WinX bullet.

    4. JasonLaw

      Re: XP

      I was at an industrial trade show in Chicago last week and about half of the laptops I saw were running XP.

      I used one XP laptop for a demonstration and it was 14 years old. The owner worked for a not-for-profit and couldn't justify upgrading a working machine. The main software they used was all browser-based and to be fair, a 14yo XP lappy worked just as well as my 18 month old state-of-the-art machine.

    5. jason 7

      Re: XP

      So reading through that seems my thoughts were broadly correct.

      Though I did forget curmudgeons.

      1. Chika

        Re: XP

        So reading through that seems my thoughts were broadly correct.

        In some ways.

        Though I did forget curmudgeons.

        By accident or design?

    6. Steve 114
      Happy

      Re: XP

      5 laptops etc in my garage with XP, and sometimes we turn them on. 3 in the house ditto - they won't go away, and can only upgrade to Linux (which houseguests won't use). Win10 is OK, but just looks too different for anyone to bother.

    7. Malagabay
      Linux

      Re: 50% old codgers

      Many of those "old codgers" [with decades of MS experience] realise the MS "upgrade" cycle is a treadmill to nowhere.

      After Windows 2000 the patient [aka Windows] suffered a mid-life crisis which resulted in middle age spread [bloating] and a loss of meaningful direction.

      The patient [aka Windows] has continued to deteriorate and has now reached the point of senile dementia. The deterioration can be traced through several stages: dumbing down, happy primary school colours, nursery school user interface and [finally] advanced paranoia [aka telemetry].

      Windows 10 is the final stage before the patient becomes comatose and is placed on life support.

      This will be a slow, lingering, painful death.

      You are advised to say your "goodbyes" now and prepare for life after Windows.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 50% old codgers

        ... and yet the treadmill powers on, and the "predictions" of the OSS fanboys remain as bizarre and irrelevant as ever. You don't need to keep posting your nonsense, as (almost) everyone on here drinks the same Kool-Aid as you, and the rest of the world just don't care...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 50% old codgers

          "and yet the treadmill powers on"

          You do realise that treadmills are powered by slaves or felons shackled to the mechanism - oh, actually, it does sound like Windows

          (A/C because you are )

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 50% old codgers

            that's so funny A/C.

            You keep posting your witty remarks about the death of windows and the glorious rise of Linux, and leave the purchasing decisions up to the adults...

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    when you can't give it away

    I think Microsoft should be asking why.. Or do they really not give a damn and force consumers to their will.

    1. Chika

      Re: when you can't give it away

      Or do they really not give a damn and force consumers to their will.

      That's probably closer to the truth though I do believe that they do give a damn. It's just that they don't give a damn about their consumers.

  15. Terry 6 Silver badge

    Motivation

    I suspect that Microsoft's approach of moving people to 10 by palming it off on them is the only way most users would bother to upgrade. Unless they did so early on, for the novelty, there is no real reason to, that most users would perceive.

    It certainly doesn't make the experience any easier, since the stuff that was obfuscated remains so. As does the stuff that was hard to find or use.

    Error messages are still of no use to users.

    The start menu is a dog's breakfast.

    User switching is hidden by design.

    The "modern" apps are still clunky and Legoish.

    The Edge browser is dismal.

    Cortana is just a feed in to Bing

    And Bing is still the crap advert feed that it always used to be.

    1. Chika

      Re: Motivation

      I suspect that Microsoft's approach of moving people to 10 by palming it off on them is the only way most users would bother to upgrade. Unless they did so early on, for the novelty, there is no real reason to, that most users would perceive.

      I'm not totally sure about that. Windows 7 never had that problem and was never even put on special offer during its release. It's possible that getting off Vista may have been an incentive but even with Windows 8 as its predecessor, W10 is not getting the kind of movement that W7 got. Of course there are other reasons why people are making the effort to avoid it.

      It certainly doesn't make the experience any easier, since the stuff that was obfuscated remains so. As does the stuff that was hard to find or use.

      That was hardly likely to change anyway.

      Error messages are still of no use to users.

      I can remember this being an issue back in the days of Windows 3!

      The start menu is a dog's breakfast.

      Yes, but not as bad as W8, and Classic Shell does wonders for that.

      User switching is hidden by design.

      Actually, I've not been a great fan of user switching since Windows XP. Even W7 was a bit clumsy about that, and user privilege elevation during a session for specific tasks also has its flaws.

      The "modern" apps are still clunky and Legoish.

      It's a matter of design in some ways. They introduced a fad and still can't admit that they were wrong.

      The Edge browser is dismal.

      It's a beta. Some parts of it are little better than alpha. Actually I could say the same about Windows 10 in its entirety.

      Cortana is just a feed in to Bing

      So switch it off!

      And Bing is still the crap advert feed that it always used to be.

      True. Much like Google. That's the big trouble - Google made such a success of doing that sort of thing that everyone + dog, cat and goldfish is trying it on in the same way.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Motivation

        I can't dispute that response, except slightly the first bit. Leaving Vista was indeed a good reason to opt for 7.

        But beyond that, the point of all these listed comments is that they all represent ways in which 10 could have been an improvement in the user experience. They weren't. So they are just further disappointments, and there are no other changes that would give users a good reason to move either.

        Oh and BTW I find that Bing seems to provide far more promotion links for far less useful content than Google. I'm no fan of Google ( which is why I have a Winphone) but their search does find useful material, and not just long lists of adverts pretending that they can sell you the search item.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

    Just make sure you:

    1) Use a local account, not a Microsoft account.

    2) Tweak your privacy settings and disable all data mining and telemetry 'features'.

    3) Do not partake of Microsoft's ecosystem: app store, Bing, Skype, Outlook, Onedrive, Cortana. Doing step #1 goes a long way into

    4) Install Classic Shell.

    5) Use Edge to download a better browser. Install that better browser and use that instead of Edge.

    6) GWX.

    1. BlartVersenwaldIII
      Black Helicopters

      Re: There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

      To quote Mr. White: Money isn't as valuable to our organization as knowing who to trust.

      > 2) Tweak your privacy settings and disable all data mining and telemetry 'features'.

      There any howtos in that regard? Last I looked it wasn't an option on the "home" versions, pro users had the option of setting a GPO to tone it down to "telemetry-lite" and only enterprise users have the option of turning it off altogether, and of course all the while there's the possibility that MS will helpfully turn telemetry back on for you "by accident".

      Likewise, is there any way to stop the automated reboots?

      Is there any guarantee that, once everyone without the nous or the inclination to keep fighting GMX and is running W10 with its mandatory automatic updates, that MS won't start turning the thumbscrews on the users in regards to more invasive information collection?

      And given that MS' entire policy with regarding pushing windows 10 goes; repeatedly going through any numbers of hoops to get around users who've attempted to block GWX, repeatedly un-hiding and re-installing updates, installing telemetry on unsuspecting W7 and 8 users, automatically downloading gigs of W10 installs "just in case we change your mind for you!"; I find myself wondering whether MS has jumped the particular shark from "annoying but tolerable" to "utterly untrustworthy and does not even pretend to have some of my interests at heart any more".

      Until I can find hard answers to these questions, W10 is sitting forever in the "no fucking way, mate" corner and I suspect it's going to be quite a few years before the dust settles.

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

        "There any howtos in that [tweak your privacy settings] regard?"

        Last I heard, they'd all been back-ported to Win7 and Win8x anyway, so why worry specifically about Win10's implementation?

        If you don't trust your OS vendor, you need a new OS. If you have to use Windows, you may as well use the version that MS are actually bothered with supporting full-time.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

      One AC to another AC, is all that permitted by the EULA

      Just wondering, not having had much time to read the licence I wouldn't know.

    3. Naselus

      Re: There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

      "5) Use Edge to download a better browser. Install that better browser and use that instead of Edge."

      Edge is actually pretty good, tbh. Certainly better than Firefox or Opera, and I'd warrant that it's slurping a lot less data than Chrome (along with not deciding it really, really needs to open eight thousand processes in order to point you to 127.0.0.1).

      1. BlartVersenwaldIII
        Coat

        Re: There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

        > needs to open eight thousand processes in order to point you to 127.0.0.1

        I've told you a million times to stop exaggerating.

      2. Timmy B

        Re: There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

        I agree - I like Edge. It is simple and fast. Give it an ad-blocker and I'll bee 100% happy. It is what chrome was a few years back. Odd that you got a load of downvotes when pretty much everybody says they just use it to download another browser - how do they know if it's any good?

      3. GrumpenKraut
        Pint

        Re: There's nothing wrong with upgrading to Windows 10

        > ...eight thousand processes...

        Certainly threads, not processes.

        Beer icon because I am having one.

  17. PhilipN Silver badge

    Balls

    Where I live (mind your own business) will be the same as for most people here. Everyone in the street, in shops, on the bus etc is staring at his phone. Even when at their desks and online with an MS OS their phones are still picking up emails, notifications etc. So the numbers for Android and iOS are complete balls.

    1. HAL-9000
      Holmes

      Re: Balls

      OS stats are just that, Counting all OS's, including servers, mainframes, routers, fridges, and the one in the kettle would merely make M$ look far less omniscient. Perhaps there may be motivation for the way stats are measured/colleceted?

  18. Daleos

    Meh! Considering the 'auto-upgrade' only works for Windows 7 and 8, it's hardly surprising this would eventually happen as it's a lot harder to upgrade from XP than 7/8. Besides, those PCs still running XP probably won't be good enough for Windows 10 in any case.

    Having said that, whilst I happily upgraded two of my Windows 8 laptops to 10, it's not going anywhere near my Windows 7 desktop. The same sentiment seems to be going around my colleagues and their systems at work.

    As for Linux. Well I use it for work. It's for a server and that is what it's best at. I'm sorry but as a desktop OS, it's fine but the apps really let it down.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "As for Linux. Well I use it for work. It's for a server and that is what it's best at. I'm sorry but as a desktop OS, it's fine but the apps really let it down."

      I take it you donated some resources to the developers then?

  19. nuclearstar

    I have had Windows 10 installed on several family machines for months now and my own.

    No problems at all. I don't know where these people are having issues with Windows 10 are coming from, or they are just jumping on the windows 10 hate bandwagon.

    W10 is a better OS than 8 and 7 and XP if you are running on recent hardware( less than 3 years old)

    1. Chika
      Mushroom

      @ nuclearstar

      I have had Windows 10 installed on several family machines for months now and my own.

      Good for you.

      No problems at all. I don't know where these people are having issues with Windows 10 are coming from, or they are just jumping on the windows 10 hate bandwagon.

      How many people have you actually talked to?

      W10 is a better OS than 8 and 7 and XP if you are running on recent hardware( less than 3 years old)

      I ran my tests on a two-year-old machine that was installed with Windows 7 prior to the "upgrade". Yes, the system appeared to work fine but that isn't why people are complaining.

      On what do you base your assertion that Windows 10 is any better than its predecessors?

    2. GrumpenKraut
      Trollface

      I tried Windows 10 and it EXPLODED IN MY FACE.

      Actual fact: I made that up.

  20. JEF_UK
    Trollface

    stats :(

    Having Sink-Holed DNS and Fire-Walled most tracking junk on the internet at the perimeter I don't show on their statistics (lies for short) I would expect many other techies know more than me.

    (real) Techies use Linux

    Therefore Linux usage is in fact much higher than all windows combined.

    posting from a Windows 7 PC

  21. AnoniMouse

    Duh!

    "Windows XP market share declining less than Win 8.x or 7"

    Not surprising, since Win XP is not (generally) subject to the embrace of Windows update, showering installations with unwanted Win10 upgrades.

  22. nkuk

    Where did all the Windows users go?

    According to the statscounter figures, the older versions of Windows (not including Vista) declined by 2.13%, Windows 10 only grew by 1.36%, and OSX 0.39%, so did the other 0.38% all move to Linux? If so, that's a relatively HUGE increase in a single month for Linux usage.

    Windows 10 was the tipping point for me to migrate all my machines to Mint Linux, it seems it might have persuaded others to do the same.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Where did all the Windows users go?

      You will no doubt interpret the figures to suit your ideology.

      The take away is that 10 years ago, the number of Linux desktop users was fuck-all. Today after all of these "year of Linux"s, the number is still fuck-all, and despite all of the "predictions" on this web site, that isn't going to change in the forseeable future. Your hobby OS is a rounding error...

      1. Chemist

        Re: Where did all the Windows users go?

        Tetchy, tetchy, tetchy.

        U R A/C so irrelevant !

        (sorry to the adults - I stooped to his/her level)

  23. largefile

    Meanwhile....MS reports a great quarter and the stock his record highs. If this is stalled, my portfolio hasn't noticed.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      the stock hit record highs...

      That's because of share buybacks by MS.

      In other words: The stock is sooooo good only MS is buying.

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