back to article Google Translate MEAT GRINDER turns gay into 'faggot', 'poof', 'queen'

Google has apologised after its language-scraping service offered up offensive alternatives including "poof" and "faggot" as replacements for the word gay. Campaign group All Out spotted the blunder and complained about the slurs to Google. The ad giant then replaced the words with more neutral terms. The worst insults to …

  1. ukgnome

    Fact Hunt!

    there is no translation for lesbian from English to Icelandic

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fact Hunt!

      Those words might be offensive to some, but are in common use (and are the preferred terms to many).

      I for one don't think we should censor a dictionary type resource just because of sensibilities.

      1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: Fact Hunt!

        I for one don't think we should censor a dictionary type resource just because of sensibilities.

        Whilst I'm inclined to agree, in part, I don't see why translations to certain words cannot be tagged, as offensive, vulgar, slang, etc. (as they are in dictionaries) and why Google cannot apply the equivalent of 'safe search' to them.

        If I were to use it to translate a document into another language (caveat emptor, I know), it would be a reasonable expectation that it wouldn't use offensive terms, unless I specifically allowed it to. In the more likely situation where I am translating a document from another language into English in order to understand it, I typically wouldn't want the resulting text to be peppered with bigotry.

        Conversely, if the source document contains text which is racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise distasteful, and I wished to know what nasty things the author had been saying, but translated into my own language, it would seem reasonable to have an option to preserve such language in the translation. However distasteful such terms are, they still convey meaning.

        1. AndyS

          Re: Fact Hunt!

          @Loyal Commenter

          You are requesting a fairly major increase in functionality. Certainly what you are suggesting would be useful, but it's beyond the scope of what Google currently does.

          In the mean time, single interest, narrow-focus pressure groups are attempting not to increase the functionality, but to remove the use, in any context, of words they don't like. Which is not, really, constructive.

          1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

            Re: Fact Hunt!

            You are requesting a fairly major increase in functionality. Certainly what you are suggesting would be useful, but it's beyond the scope of what Google currently does.

            Given that organisationally, Google are perfectly set up for exactly this sort of data analytics, you'd probably be surprised at how little work this would be. I reckon it would probably turn out to be a couple of weeks work for one programmer, to define the rules and techniques for extracting such information, and then a learning period for the software as it goes to work categorising the data. Given that Google's Oompah-Loompahs are purportedly given a day a week to work on their own projects, it wouldn't surprise me if someone was already working on it.

          2. P. Lee

            Re: Fact Hunt!

            >In the mean time, single interest, narrow-focus pressure groups are attempting not to increase the functionality, but to remove the use, in any context, of words they don't like.

            That's a tall order. Words become offensive when they reflect the offensive intent of the users. It is the intent, not the letters or sound which is offensive. Until you can erase hateful people, you won't ever erase words full of hate. It works both ways though... "I hate your hateful words, therefore I hate you and seek to marginalise/erase you." appears to be the common moral-high-ground-surrendering response.

            There do appear to be activists who seek out all opposition to their cause and try to destroy it by any and all means. They tend to be quite obnoxious, sad people. They remind me of present-day Nazi-hunters. Yes, the Nazis were bad people, but there is little to be gained from prosecuting 90-year-olds. If doing so would undo the evil they did, prevent future abominations or really even demonstrate justice in action I'd be all for it. At this point however, it just makes the hunters look like people who nurture spite and hate with an inability to forgive.

            As has been said, tag the terms appropriately as colloquial, slang and.or vulgar. Job done.

        2. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Fact Hunt!

          @Loyal Commenter

          Be careful with Google Translate, I tried it on a safety manual. GT doesn't seem to like unabbreviated sentences. E.g. "Don't" translates correctly, but "Do not" translates to "do", at least in German.

          My safety manual, which read "do not open the case, no user servicable parts inside" translated into German read the equivalent of "open the case, no parts inside" :-D

          More worrying was that "do not open the case, high voltage inside" translated to "open the case, high voltage inside," I think Google must have noticed that I had stopped using Android and was using a Windows Phone...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Fact Hunt!

            This being translated into German and correction of errors "crowd sourced", perhaps in the eyes of French, British, Dutch or Flemish Google Translate is indeed "working as designed" - or maybe Google outsourced testing to Greece since salaries are so low there?

          2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

            Re: Fact Hunt!

            @big_D

            I absolutely agree; if you trust the translation from Google, you are asking for what you get. As I said, caveat emptor

            Fun examples can be had by taking a sentence of your choice, using Google Translate to translate this to a second language, then taking this translation, translating it to a third language, and finally back to the original language.

            The above sentence translated to Greek, then Japanese, then back to English, reads:

            "Fun example, Google is, to translate it in a second language, taking this translation, translated into third language, using eventually return to the original language, by taking the penalty of your choice you can be had."

            You can be had indeed...

          3. JeffyPoooh

            Re: Fact Hunt!

            @big_D "Be careful with Google Translate"

            Yep. Translate 101 - You go back and forth (translating in both directions, rewording as required), until the meaning is stable in the language you understand. It's probably not 100%, but it's close.

        3. jonathanb Silver badge

          Re: Fact Hunt!

          Depends, if you use an offensive word in English, then it should probably translate it into an equivalently offensive word in the other language, and if you use a politically correct word, it should.

          However, Google is nowhere near as good as a skilled human translator, and it works by examining already translated texts, so maybe I'm asking too much.

      2. big_D Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: Fact Hunt!

        Are they talking about meat balls in gravy of small bundles of wood?

        1. razorfishsl

          Re: Fact Hunt!

          Or indeed a new pupil to a private school, who's use is to run errands....

      3. stringyfloppy

        Re: Fact Hunt!

        "In Spain, we revere the famous English writer and bulldyke, Virginia Woolf."

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fact Hunt!

      "there is no translation for lesbian from English to Icelandic"

      teppi sogskál ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fact Hunt!

        ""there is no translation for lesbian from English to Icelandic"

        teppi sogskál ?"

        But it's still pronounced Sandi Toksvig, right?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Dyke Rd

      We recently had a local news item that involved a house on Dyke Rd.; a road built near a berm of earth that controls the movement of water.

      The Twittter feed on the CBC News site transcribed "Dyke Rd" as "**** Rd".

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Monty Python

      "I want to fondle your buttocks." Etc.

  2. N2

    far from perfect

    I was typing an email in French this morning, C&P the results as its handy at adding accents etc,

    'A tout a l'heure' came out completely wrong, so no surprises here.

  3. Dr Paul Taylor

    Google can't win

    The other side of this coin is that it kindly translated Zur Geometrie der Alten as "On the Geometry of the Elderly", when "Ancients" would have been the appropriate word in this context, since it was the title of a journal paper that referred to Archimedes.

    1. Tom 7

      Re: Google can't win

      I find 'ancients' very offensive!

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Google can't win

        I find 'geometry' very offensive

      2. Ken 16 Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Google can't win

        Yes, they smell of pee too.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Google can't win

      The "Ancients" are the Many-angled and Tentacled ones. Of course Google cannot name those according to their contract with the Gulfs.

      1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: Google can't win

        Of course, you cannot translate the geometry of the Ancients. If you try to make sense of the angles of R'Lyeh, it will send you insane.

  4. Khaptain Silver badge

    Delete the entire dictionary as a solution (except for 16 words)

    Is it even possible nowadays to "not" offend someone, or some group, or some subset of and subset of a tiny proportion of infinitesimally minor range of people.

    When we have reduced the language to 16 words and the human brain to nothing more than a slot machine will we then have achieved satisfaction for the Nanny State and it's members.

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      Re: Delete the entire dictionary as a solution (except for 16 words)

      After reading about Cumberbatchs' apology the other day I decided to have a look around for the list of words that I'm not supposed to use.

      Guess, what..there doesn't appear to be one.

      This is actually quite clever, because people who are constantly watching what they say (just in case it might offend) are effectively already mind-controlled.

      Control the language and you control the scope of thought processes.

      1. Teiwaz

        Re: Delete the entire dictionary as a solution (except for 16 words)

        Control the language and you control the scope of thought processes.

        More fool them...

        More of a hinderanc to anything intelligent or productive rather than any other behaviours. How much 'scope of thought processes' is actually needed to encapsulate the concept of say, having sex with a member of the underage population, or hitting somebody over the head repeatedly with a length of wood or throwing old women off the top of large buildings? In fact, in lieu of anybody interesting to talk to or the ability to formulate more meaningful thoughts I'd wager these activities would gain in popularity.

    2. fajensen

      Re: Delete the entire dictionary as a solution (except for 16 words)

      There is the "PG-version" of Repo Man; of course someone will still be offended by "melon farmer"

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Paris Hilton

          Re: Delete the entire dictionary as a solution (except for 16 words)

          "John Wayne was a fag."

          Shouldn't that be "had a fag?"

          Inb4 "Mussolini hearted faggot-bearers"

      2. John Tserkezis

        Re: Delete the entire dictionary as a solution (except for 16 words)

        of course someone will still be offended by "melon farmer"

        This is why I sometimes have a tablet or laptop nearby, while watching movies at home.

        Urban Dictionary. Seriously, I would have been completely lost watching "Deuce Bigalow" otherwise.

        They should include subtitles for these.

    3. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: Delete the entire dictionary as a solution (except for 16 words)

      You don't actually get what the problem is.

      When I write a sentence, I want to use words that are exactly as nice and friendly, or exactly as offensive and insulting, as I want them to be. So I don't mind offensive words in a dictionary, if they are part of the used language.

      A dictionary giving English translations, presumably used by someone who doesn't speak English well, can translate say French insults to English insults, but here it translates inoffensive words into very offensive words. Someone said these words should be marked as "vulgar" or "offensive", but there were some that fall into the category "may cause loss of teeth" or "will get your into deep trouble when used".

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    Of course the flip side

    Faggot gets changed to fagot

    Synonyms of fagot

    noun

    queen, fairy, nance, poof, fag, queer, pansy, pouf

    Odd I thought it was a "meat" dish, mainly made from offal.

    1. Tom 7

      Re: Of course the flip side

      A faggot can be a bundle of wood. The sort used in the middle ages to burn women of a certain persecution.

      Interestingly the worktool used to help form faggots is called a 'boy'.

  6. thomas k.

    more neutral terms?

    Brokeback buddy, perhaps? Weak sister? Gunsel? Catamite? Do tell.

    1. BlartVersenwaldIII

      Re: more neutral terms?

      Also "ham doctor" as coined back in 2009.

      http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/07/22

      From the blurb:

      A year ago, we saw a quiz thing that asked you to determine which of four odd phrases were euphemisms for sexual acts. By the time we had discovered this question, every item on the list had developed a carnal reputation. That is to say, *every item*. We are fast approaching a point where ordering a sandwich at a deli will land you in prison. While I’m intrigued by the dystopian undertones of this scenario, I don’t necessarily want to live under its strictures, not least of which because I tend to frequent delis.

      Also, I’m pretty sure that “Dystopian Undertones” is guttermouth for the male testes. Make a note.

      1. Mark 85

        Re: more neutral terms?

        So that explains the anger and nastiness and giggles form the backroom when I ordered a 'salami on rye with cheese" at the local deli. And I was thinking it was the ordering of the cheese....

  7. davcefai

    The entire discussion has ignored the fact that the word "gay" really means something like happy, lighthearted, carefree, and was only hijacked into a sexual meaning in, I think, the sixties. Time Magazine actually wrote about this once. I can only place the article to pre 1972.

    1. handle

      Oh not not again.

      But gay also meant prostitute. There, fixed your misplaced nostalgia for you.

      1. Stuart 22

        Re: Oh not not again.

        "But gay also meant prostitute. There, fixed your misplaced nostalgia for you."

        Different nostalgia in different places methinks. I can remember describing myself as "a batchelor gay" when picking up ladies of the female gender for rather more than platonic love. It was a common phrase probably emanating from a popular song written in 1917. As I don't know the words I haven't a clue if that was euphemistic but if so it was lost of the lads of the 60s. Well those I knew. It was a bit embarrassing when a few years later it took on the other meaning. Had to rewrite my chat up script.

        Not that either was very effective :-(

        1. Khaptain Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: Oh not not again.

          Since it is based on the French word "Gai", voila some etymology, in French of course

          I will sum up some of the points in the text below.

          Historically it appears to stem back to the 11th century.

          Gay:

          That which is funny humour, that which expresses gaiety; that which inspires gaiety, a calm and agreeable moment. Bubbly.

          There are a few others less connected meaning which are not worth mentioning unless you need to know that it could express Light Green, Yellowish when speaking about soup....

          Étymol. et Hist. 1. 2emoitié du xies. « qui est d'humeur riante (en parlant d'une personne); qui exprime la gaieté (visage, etc.) » (Levy Trésor, p. 121); ca 1155 « id. » (Wace, Brut, éd. I. Arnold, 1564); 2. ca 1225 tens ... gais « qui inspire la gaieté, temps agréable et doux » (Durmart le Gallois, éd. J. Gildea, 924); 3. ca 1300 vert gay « vert clair, jaunâtre (en parlant d'un bouillon) » (Taillevent, Viandier, éd. P. Aebischer, p. 94). Peut-être empr. de l'a. occitan gai « pétulant, gai » (dep. Guillaume IX ds FEW t. 16, p. 9 a; v. aussi Levy (E.) Prov.), lui-même issu du got. *gaheis « impétueux » (cf. a. h. all. gāhi « id. », all. jäh « brusque »), provenance qui serait due à l'infl. des troubadours (FEW, loc. cit.), ou plus vraisemblablement mot issu directement de l'a. h. all. gāhi d'où la forme attendue jai (xiiies., Pastourelles, éd. J. Cl. Rivières, CIX, 8). La prédominance de la forme avec g- s'explique en particulier par les interférences constantes entre gai et gaillard (v. DEAF, col. 35, s.v. gai).

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Oh not not again.

        "But gay also meant prostitute."

        I know a family with that surname. I had no idea it was an occupational derived one like Smith.

    2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      I believe the use of the word to insinuate homosexuality (amongst other meanings, which have now fallen out of use) pre-dates that by a fair while. However, the use of the word to mean homosexual, as its primary meaning, and as a noun, rather than an adjective dates from the mid 20th century. It's first use in that sense on screen, for instance, was by Cary Grant in the film, "Bringing Up Baby" in 1938.

      1. handle

        Interesting, but I imagine it's very hard to pinpoint the first use because it would have been an innuendo, so not easy to determine whether or not it was meant that way. How blatantly was it used in that film? If not blatant, could it have been a ruse to get past the censors?

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          I've not seen the film in question myself, but on the website from which I cribbed this information:

          Bringing Up Baby in 1938 was the first film to use the word gay to mean homosexual. Cary Grant, in one scene, ended up having to wear a lady’s feathery robe. When another character asks about why he is wearing that, he responds an ad-libbed line “Because I just went gay”. At the time, mainstream audiences didn’t get the reference so the line was thought popularly to have meant something to the effect of “I just decided to be carefree.”

          http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/02/how-gay-came-to-mean-homosexual/

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      can't say it anymore

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtaPaQwSQPA

      1. dogged

        Re: can't say it anymore

        It's worse than that, Jim.

        clicky

  8. Tim Jenkins

    Does it turn

    'coloured' into 'cringing apology'?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Does it turn

      I guess that, like me, he didn't get the memo about "coloured" now being a grossly offensive term outside the US, and made a slip using that word while within it. Apparently it isn't the meaning of the language you use that matters any more, just how compliant you are with the Universal PC English Dictionary.

      Somebody should also tell the NAACP about this, lest they inadvertently offend themselves.

      1. ukgnome
        Joke

        Re: Does it turn

        Which is why I now have to change the ethnic toners on the xerox

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Does it turn

        The acceptable words to denote a particular race seem to change over time.

        Woe betide anyone that doesn't keep up or isn't immersed in US culture so they have no idea what the latest most fashionable sanctimony trigger is.

      3. razorfishsl

        Re: Does it turn

        So what can i now call my set of pencils of different hue's

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Any dictionary listing synonyms will contain those and other offensive words. At most it should indicate that they are offensive but definitely not remove them.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Unnecessary, overspecific words

      Yes, as a general rule.

      But really there's a problem because bulldyke shouldn't be listed as a synonym of lesbian, because it's so specific. If I looked up "sportsman" I wouldn't expect a list of players of each sport.

      (I don't actually think of bulldyke as offensive.)

      1. Hollerith 1

        Re: Unnecessary, overspecific words - 'Bulldyke'

        'Bulldyke' borders on being a dangerous word. Those women who don't feel it describes them will be pissed off if called by it, while the (very tough and scary) women who really are BDs shouldn't be addressed with anything other than the most respectful terms, so as not to get a thump across the earhole or your neck stomped on.

        There are words communities use that outsiders cannot use without risking censure or life and limb. The N word is an example. Similarly, the F word (fairy) is jokingly used within the community, but not by an outsider, not as a neutral term.

        It would be nice, as another commentard has said, if 'slur' terms could be flagged up as such, as do dictionaries. I'd rather that than words being removed.

  10. M man

    Err misplaced ire!

    So Crowd driven translator traslation insults, pressure group blames the translater, not he crowd.

    These entries exist becuase they are in use in society. Blame Society!

    1. handle

      Re: Err misplaced ire!

      But that's Google's getout clause to a tee - "we're only the conduit".

    2. Zog_but_not_the_first
      Trollface

      Re: Err misplaced ire!

      Better brook it.

  11. CaptainBanjax

    *facepalm*

    A queer problem indeed.

    What a fag it must have been to specifically hunt this down and point it out to google. Now some poor intern has to get on with the fagging this has undoubtedly created.

    Oh well Im sure whomever cleans this up will throw themselves at it with gay abandon, with all the vigor he can muster...soon enough *poof* the faggery will be over and the problem solved.

    Ill get my coat, mines the black PVC one with silver spikes on the collar, hanging next to the gimp.

    1. Bob Wheeler

      Re: *facepalm*

      Reminds me of time on holiday in the US when I mentioned (in a crowded bar in the deep south) that I was going out for a fag.

      It took some explaining!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: *facepalm*

        > It took some explaining!

        Thanks goodness you didn't declare that you were going to "smoke a fag".

        The local sheriff might have got involved.

        1. Mark 85

          Re: *facepalm*

          Depending on the county, the sheriff might have helped...

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: *facepalm*

            It wasn't unusual not so long ago to hear someone ask if they could "bum a fag off you".

            There are enough Americans that visit the UK that have taken photos of Mr Brains products in the freezer section and posted it on their Facebook. Gets very tired soon enough.

      2. dogged

        Re: *facepalm*

        > Reminds me of time on holiday in the US when I mentioned (in a crowded bar in the deep south) that I was going out for a fag.

        A colleague of mine on business in San Francisco commented that their railway stations were apparently not used as ashtrays (this was pre Smoking Ban) with the immortal phrase "I'm impressed by the state of fag butts around here".

        That caused some confusion, I am informed.

  12. Wilseus

    "Bulldyke." Such an infamous and hateful word, I'd never even heard of it until I read this article!

    1. Hollerith 1

      Better that than the other

      'Bulldyke' is actually the less offensive version of 'bulldagger'. If you call yourself one or the other, you are either heavily ironic (I know a petite beauty who calls herself a BD, to general hilarity) or heavily tattooed and studded.

  13. sisk

    "Bulldyke"

    I've only ever known one person to actually use that term and she used it to refer to herself. She always introduced herself to new people with it. Clearly it's not offensive to everyone.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Bulldyke"

      Similar to the N word, Dr Dre can use it and even name his group after it....

      wonder how many people in the US and UK were arrested asking for F*** the Police By N****** with Attitude in record shops.

      Making a word "Un-Pc" doesn't stop it's use around the world,

      Another US one, try saying to someone in a UK gym, "I love your toned fanny, How did you make it so firm?"

    2. Pen-y-gors

      Re: "Bulldyke"

      Language is so confusing - what do Merkins (and google translate) make of the annual Dyke Jumping Competitions in East Anglia?

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They would have a lot of work with modern Hebrew. In the small Bantam-Megiddo dictionary it is amazing how many apparently innocent words have translation alternatives as mostly male sexual terms. Even a letter of the alphabet "zayin" is rendered a common phallic expression by its upright shape.

    NB Google translates the Hebrew ז as only being a letter of the alphabet - either G or M.

  15. Rushyo
    Meh

    Not a fail

    If you intended to use 'gay' as a pejorative then these are perfectly legitimate synonyms. Is Google supposed to use a lexicon without insults? Why? Insults are part of the language.

    I occasionally admonish people who use the term 'gay' as a pejorative in anger (I can think of a bunch of better pejoratives that don't have the same connotations and are generally much less insulting) but expecting Google to account for that? That's just gay, frankly.

  16. Mark 85

    I guess we'll have to wait for the rest of the world...

    Seems that translating from another language to English also has issues.. I'm translating a monograph from French to English using Google (personal use, not professional so I can sort it out) but some of the words/phrases do make me laugh. Others might find offense.

    So I'm guessing that going from say Spanish to Russian might offend someone, somewhere?

  17. EddieD

    Never be born on the Sabbath day

  18. phil dude
    Coat

    Roger Mellie

    Comic strip character or rhyming slang....

    P.

  19. J.G.Harston Silver badge

    I thought Google Translate worked by comparing online texts in different languages, as a sort of Rosetta Stone process, so if The People Out There uses those words to mean those meanings, then Google Translate will as well.

  20. MrZoolook
    Windows

    Screw you guys, I'm using the grown up, uncensored dictionary when I play Scrabble.

  21. Private Citizen.AU
    FAIL

    How dare they translate the nasty bits?

    The sanitisation of the world continues. I feel that this is like chipping pieces off the Rosetta stone because you dont like the translations.

    Google should be able to present an default option for those who want the world wrapped in cotton wool or those who want to be able to spot reality's razor edge.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Consistency?

    So Google supports (even financially) the freedom of a French journal to viciously insult various religions, but at the same time censors itself for publishing certain offensive words.

    Did I miss something here?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Consistency?

      Trolling?

      I don't think think many normal, intelligent and rational people would fairly describe the Charlie Hebdo cartoons as "viciously insulting".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Consistency?

        <<Trolling?

        I don't think think many normal, intelligent and rational people would fairly describe the Charlie Hebdo cartoons as "viciously insulting".>>

        Fair comment. Likely unnecessary of me to use such barbed language. Will keep that in mind.

        No, not trolling. Just felt that there seemed to be some inconsistency in Google's position on free (including offensive) speech and was wondering what others thought.

      2. baud

        Re: Consistency?

        > I don't think think many people would describe the Charlie Hebdo cartoons as "viciously insulting".

        I don't think you've seen a lot of Charlie Hebdo covers.

  23. baud

    How times are changing

    It's funny reading the comments and seeing the vote scores on this article and compare/contrast what they would be today 4.5 years later. How times (and commentards) are changing

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