back to article Apple, Google: WE SURRENDER ... to each other in patent war truce

Apple and Google have asked a US federal judge to dismiss all patent litigation between the two companies after four years of legal battles, we're told. Documents submitted on Friday to a Washington federal appeals court requested an end to the patent war, the pair revealed. Piles of allegations of infringement were …

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  1. cyke1

    eh

    "That looks unlikely. Apple is currently beating Samsung like a red-headed stepchild in the courts, and secured a $120m judgment against the company earlier this month"

    You mean they been beating Samsung in a court house that might well be held on Apple's front lawn as court house is stones throw from their HQ, not a conflict of rigged jury in that case.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: eh

      $120 million didnt even cover their legal fees in the case.

      But they did get a few billion last year, so probably are "break-even" over the last 5 years of litigation.

      1. Mephistro

        Re: eh

        "But they did get a few billion last year"

        The 120 millions is all that's left of that billion. :-)

        1. StimuliC

          Re: eh

          The biggest winner was they lawyers who have made a fortune out of all these cases.

      2. g e

        Re: eh

        Except Sammy upped the price of iProcessors to Apple so they probably paid Samsung's bill for them by now.

        Cunning.

    2. Stuart Castle Silver badge

      Re: eh

      They also beat Samsung in South Korea. Surely that's Samsung's back yard?

      http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/12/11/apple-gets-court-win-in-south-korea-as-court-tosses-samsung-patent-claim

  2. Mikel

    Peace in our time

    Of course the lawyers will find some other way to fill out their calendar.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Peace in our time

      clearly Oracle isn't party to this "end the patent war" idea. Lots more work for lawyers still ...

    2. Steve Evans

      Re: Peace in our time

      That's probably why...

      All the lawyers they have on retainers have bought their Benley's, lifetime golf course membership and have retired, and nobody else knows the case.

      Now I hope Apple really do put that kind of energy into US patent reform, because as we've seen, they have submitted, and been granted, some incredibly dubious patents.

      1. Thorne

        Re: Peace in our time

        "Now I hope Apple really do put that kind of energy into US patent reform, because as we've seen, they have submitted, and been granted, some incredibly dubious patents."

        Yeah right. Patent reform would invalidate half of Apple's crappy slide to unlock / rounded corners patents.....

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I wonder what is that Apple is so afraid of

    that they agreed to stop this patent madness. Usually when you're on a winning streak you don't call for a truce. And it doesn't look like Google has suddenly decided to surrender to Cupertino demands.

    Too bad Groklaw is no longer with us! How I miss their thoughtful analysis of every single line of the court documents they could get their hands on!

    My feeling is Google is preparing to do something nasty, like for instance threatening to ask for the details of one of those patent outsourcing deals between Apple and some patent trolls.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wonder what is that Apple is so afraid of

      I suspect it is more because there isn't much Apple can get from Google when they sell few products, but only license software. A patent violation doesn't happen during the act of software licensing, that would instead be a copyright or trademark violation. The violation would happen when products using those patents are sold.

      Did Apple ever even sue Google directly, or was this from their lawsuit against Motorola that became Google when they were purchased? We don't know what became of the FRAND patent licensing stuff, maybe they came to an agreement on that and as a condition agreed to settle all outstanding suits. Terms of such deals are never made public, so we'll never know if Google/Motorola is paying Apple, Apple is paying them, or they're jointly calling it quits. Maybe it'll come in discovery in some future iteration of the neverending Apple/Samsung case.

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: I wonder what is that Apple is so afraid of

      Apple's only 'win' was in the US, where they have a judgement for some chump change that could vanish under appeal. Apple have gone to courts all over the world. Their best results have been a draw. Down right losses were more common like the smacking they got from judge Birss.

      Google have sold Motorola to Lenovo. Even if Apple successfully fake evidence in every court around the world, the best they are going to get is some injunctions preventing Lenovo distributing some old Motorola phones. This is not a route to Google's money.

      Despite Apple's relentless accusations of copying, their market share is falling. Their strength is with customers who want a quality phone that costs more than anyone else's. They cannot go directly into any other market because it would damage their reputation for quality or price. In the mean time, the falling price of smart phones has vastly increased the number of people who can buy one.

      Component manufacturers no longer need Apple as the economies of scale are elsewhere. One of the few things Apple's litigation has achieved is a poisoning of their relations with Samsung to the point where Apple had to find a new source for displays, which led to issues with supply and quality.

      On the other side of the business, Apple's distributors are stuck with piles of unsold iPhones. Apple decided how many phones each distributor had to buy to get any at all. Those numbers gave them the bargaining power with component suppliers to get components at near cost. Next time, the distributors will say "no", and the suppliers won't want any more small contracts with thin margins with Apple.

      We have reached the point where there are more active mobile phones than people. The growing market is with the poor, and with second phones. Either way, growth requires cheap phones. If Apple is successful with their Android tax, that market fades away, and the carriers lose money. Apple got a very one-sided deal with the carriers that left money pouring into Apple through their App store. If the carriers get a better offer from anyone else, Apple could crumple as fast as Nokia. If there is anything that frightens Apple, it will be failed negotiations with the carriers.

      Apple may be able to buy component suppliers, but buying their own network would cost time and all their money. Even if they build their own network, they still need carrier relations to connect it to the existing networks. That is why Google's balloon network is not flying.

      1. Steve Todd

        Re: I wonder what is that Apple is so afraid of

        There's a lot of fandroid propoganda there, much of it disproved by later stories than those linked.

        The biggest mistake is in comparing the sales of ALL Android phones with the iPhone. Vast quantities of cheap, low quality Android handsets are shipped out to people as free replacements for their previous feature phone. Only two companies are really making any money from selling smartphones, Samsung and Apple, hence all the fighting between them.

        The carriers queue up for these phones because they know that these are what their customers are demanding. It's not a case of being offered a better deal, if they can't shift other handsets because people aren't interested then ANY deal is a bad one. If one carrier drops Apple or Samsung then they know that many of their customers will switch to one of their competitors (and there are genuine sales figures to back this up).

        Component suppliers? You HAVE to be kidding. Suppliers are queuing up to try to sell their parts to Apple. Guaranteed sales in the order of a hundred million units over a year or more, what supplier doesn't want that? Add to which Apple has a history of helping finance production capacity and they have to beat them off with a stick.

        Yes, the mobile phone market is maturing. Yes, much of the current growth is comming at the low end. No, Apple aren't demanding a tax on all smartphones, simply that other phones not use it's patented (and non essential) features. No, Apple's sales aren't falling nor is it becoming irrelevant in the market.

        1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

          Please link to those later stories

          Has Judge Birss printed apologies in the newspapers for his ruling against Apple?

          Perhaps you have Q2 2014 sales figures showing Apple's market share has gone back over 20%?

          1. Steve Todd

            Re: Please link to those later stories

            Perhaps you should learn the difference between market share and unit sales. You should also consider the difference between smartphone sales and mobile phone sales. The percentage of mobile phone sales that are also smartphones has been increasing progressively. Much of that increase is because the buyers got them by default, not because they wanted smart features or they use them much (there's plenty of evidence for this, from web logs to app sales). The result is that developers still make more money writing code for iOS, and have less problems testing, so tend to develop for it first.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Please link to those later stories

              I find it interesting that people are downvoting you for telling the truth. I guess Apple haters wish to believe the fiction that Apple's sales are declining, as if "smartphone" market share is relevant. Samsung's share of the smartphone market is also falling, if you measure only the Galaxy S series and Note, for the same reason that Apple's is. Because cheap feature phones are being replaced by cheap smartphones.

              The fact is, the high end of the smartphone market sells slightly more units per year than they did the last, but that's not where the big growth in the smartphone market is. It isn't in the midrange, either. It isn't even in the "low end", if you define the low end by Samsung's cheapest phones. No, even the whole of Samsung is now LOSING smartphone market share, because China and India have companies selling smartphones that cost much less than Samsung's cheapest phone. That's the hot sector in the smartphone market now - the $35-$70 phones.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Please link to those later stories

                >the hot sector in the smartphone market now - the $35-$70 phones.

                Chinese patent violation is becoming the greater problem, not Korean clones. There are several billionaire CEOs of Chinese clone companies that dress and present like Steve Jobs. Apple already starting suing the Chinese Ministry supervising them, maybe it can't fight a war on 2 fronts.

            2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

              Didn't link to those later stories

              Here is a handy trick Apple used to play, but cannot do now that their unit sales are a smaller proportion of the market. Revenue is a massively important figure, but not the only one.

              I do not have handy figures for market share by revenue, but I will take your word for it that Apple are not falling behind by that metric. If you want to draw a distinction between smart phones used as smart phones and smart phones used as feature phones then fine, but see what happens if you don't. Apple's share of the money from smart phone (any usage) sales is increasing (or at least not falling) despite their falling market share by unit (any usage) sales. For that to happen, (iPhone price)/(Otherphone price) must be increasing. I agree that one of the reasons developers like iPhone is because iPhone users are better at spending money than Android users. Imagine what happens when iPhone users discover they can have the same smartness from a cheaper source. Some of them will stick with Apple as a status symbol, but plenty will go elsewhere. Apple considered this such a threat to their revenue stream that the sued Samsung and Googorola all over the world.

              We disagree about whether Apple is seeking a smart phone tax or "simply that other phones not use it's patented (and non essential) features". Lets take a look at those features. I know it is not (just) a rectangle with rounded corners. There is also glass to the edge of the device, four rows of icons and the colour black. By all means, link to some court filings describing features Apple invented and prove Apple is not seeking a smart phone tax.

              Apple have money and brains. They are perfectly capable of using those asserts to remain a dominant force for decades. They can also use those brains to move the money sideways to their own pockets without paying dividends to their investors. I see the new giant HQ, the global thermonuclear litigation and the PR cost of maintaining the reality distortion field as evidence of the latter, but they should be able to do both at once.

      2. Mage Silver badge

        Re: I wonder what is that Apple is so afraid of

        Component makers have never needed Apple particularly, All the big margin is Apple's. the majority of the component makers products go to other makers, in some cases phone products a minority of their business.

  4. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. mIRCat
    Coat

    Call me paranoid

    ...but I don't see this being good for the consumer.

    Where's a tinfoil hat when you need one?

  6. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Coat

    Chocolate coated Apple

    it will never catch on. Just wait for the lawyers to smell the money again.

    1. Bloakey1

      Fsck Me!

      <snip>

      "Apple is currently beating Samsung like a red-headed stepchild "

      <snip>

      What a wonderful turn of phrase.Well done that man.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fsck Me!

        <snip>

        "Apple is currently beating Samsung like a red-headed stepchild "

        <snip>

        What a wonderful turn of phrase.Well done Gutter Boy in Wraith (1980's film with Charlie Sheene)

        <Fixed>

  7. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    Isnt it a bit late

    For an April Fools joke??

  8. Only me!

    Too much cash!

    It could be Apple and Google are cash rich and this could end up with either one going under. So draw a truce and let Samsung and Apple fight it out. Which is a fight Apple must think they can win.

  9. Alan Denman

    Crap on the user time?

    Bad news? A secret agreement to cripple Android

    I would not bet against it.

  10. Steve Medway

    Samsung and it's Tizen OS are now becoming a threat to both Google and Apple. Same principle as the 2nd world war when Russia helped the rest of the Allies to beat the Nazi's... Nobody was under the illusion that they were buddies but it was in both of their best interests to fight the common enemy.

    1. Adam 1

      Your point is sound but I think any reasonable measure of Russia's contribution against the Nazis would come to the conclusion that "help" is a bit of an understatement. It would be like saying that the US "helped" in the pacific.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Feds need to do their part and use common sense when granting patents.

  12. stanimir

    Last few years I was under the impression "patent wars" were used as PR campaign - constantly in the news and as we all know there is no bad press.

    1. Don Jefe

      That, sir, is, thus far, the most accurate statement on this thread.

  13. busycoder99

    I just checked the date. Nope, it isn't April 1st. Strange.

  14. Don Jefe

    Wrong Focus

    There's an underlying story here, that's much more interesting, but it gets lost in the hoopla of the tech giant vs tech giant marketing vehicles. Make no mistake about it, these insane patent battles are a super cheap marketing exercise. None if the big participants could have ever got this much press, this cheaply. Hell, they all actually came out in the black overall. There's no other marketing tactic that generates revenue, or even breaks even.

    The patent trolls are the problem, not competitors. These big name companies, Google, Apple and Samsung, involved in all the headline IP news stories aren't really even competitors. They've all got their own actual businesses and their interests just sort of run together in a single product category. None pose a significant threat to the others and every single one of them have entirely different, and wholly incomparable business models.

    But the trolls are a threat to everybody. They're responsible for 94% of the lawsuits and 99% percent of the financial outlay these companies make toward legal defense and pay out in infringement awarded by the court.

    Samsung will sign on soon, Google will guarantee that, and they'll all get together to lobby for patent reform to stop the trolls. Patent troll suits don't create cheap marketing opportunities. They don't encourage innovation and they're relentless because their costs are negligible in perusing the suits.

    What Google and Apple (and soon to be Samsung) have done is take the first steps in getting patent reform to happen. There's zero chance of that if the news is covered up with stories about inter company patent disputes. But if they show they can get past their issues, then there's valid reason to stop trolls, nonentities, from screwing with their businesses. This is good.

  15. ecarlseen

    No longer really the same market

    As the Samsung / Google split becomes inevitable, there's no reason for Apple to care that much about Android anymore. Aside from Samsung Galaxy and Note series, there are no high-end Android smartphones that sell in any meaningful volumes. HTC has some nice devices, but they're not really making a dent.

    1. Jon Egerton

      Re: No longer really the same market

      This is why Google is going Silver - to guarantee Android a place in the high-end market.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What's apple afraid of...

    Imagine...

    You google for "apple" and all you get are wiki article on Malus domestica. Google for Apple store and you'll get the nearest seed shop. Google for iPhone and you'll get a suggestion for eye-phone and google glass.

    You don't want to mess with the main search engine in the world.

  17. StimuliC

    Does this mean that Apple will dissolve 'rockstar'

    Really, does this really mean if Apple is now wanting to fight Patent trolls that they will ask their partners, as the majority shareholder, of RockStar consortium to dissolve the company and make those patents 'free to use'?

    If they aren't then it is merely Apple being a hypocrite!!! Rockstar Consortium have been acting as, and meet all the requirements defining as such, a patent troll! They have no actual product and purchased the patents and are shoehorning cases to fit a case of breach of patent and then hounding others through the courts!

  18. ukgnome
    Joke

    Can you hear that?

    It's the sounds of a popcorn company going bust...

  19. jb99

    About time

    The whole thing is mad, if they agreed to share this stuff not only would they save huge legal bills but could *all* made better phones increasing the size of the market. Everyone wins.

    It seems that in the USA particularly it's not enough to win, you have to crush everyone else too

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Suing other peoples customers...

    "It looks likely that Cupertino will carry on suing its competitors that use Google's operating system, unless some other deal can be struck with vendors such as Samsung."

    I'm confused, I though Microsoft was the only company currently licensing Android to Google's downstream mobile developers.

  21. earplugs

    Winner will attract DoJ antitrust action

    DoJ and EU antitrust watchdogs are really cramping the style of the Big 3. Its a winner's curse for whoever comes out on top in the patent battles.

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