back to article Windows 8? Nah: Win Phone 8 should give Apple the fear

Windows Phone 8 might spell the beginning of a climb to relevance for a desktop vendor breaking out its latest PC operating system at almost the same time. Why will Windows Phone 8 mean more than Windows 8? Not because Windows Phone 8 is groundbreaking. And not because its user experience compels adoption. While Windows Phone …

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  1. dotdavid
    Facepalm

    Apple fears Windows 8...

    ...about as much as I fear being struck by lightning.

    1. the-it-slayer

      Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

      Too right my friend. This article is such a load of nonsense. It isn't like WP7.5 has given WP8 a springboard to go and succeed as you cant even upgrade your WP7.5 hardware to 8 (very silly IMHO).

      It isn't the OS hardware makers are worried about. It's themselves (Samsung in particular) deciding to go "oh, we very much like this Apple design - let's copyyyyy!". Android isn't going to get snuffed overnight. It costs nothing to adopt and as long Google keep developing new versions (and don't upset adopters), it'll only keep Microsoft further out of the smartphone game. That's regardless to whether a vendor does a 50/50 split on OS releases (i.e. HTC if they decide to develop less Android phones).

      There's no game changer in WP8 from reviews and countless plays on existing WP7.5 devices. So it isn't going anywhere.

      1. h4rm0ny

        Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

        "Too right my friend. This article is such a load of nonsense. It isn't like WP7.5 has given WP8 a springboard to go and succeed as you cant even upgrade your WP7.5 hardware to 8 (very silly IMHO)."

        And if two years ago, Nokia had released multi-core phones with hardware far in excess of what WP7 required for the sake of meeting the requirements of a phone two years down the line, you would not have been critical of that?

        "There's no game changer in WP8 from reviews and countless plays on existing WP7.5 devices. So it isn't going anywhere."

        It's very nice to use from what I've seen (I have WP7 so some idea of what ModernUI is like on a phone) and seems very nice to develop for and you can simultaneously develop for Desktops, tablets and phones. I don't see why you should be so confident you know that it wont do well. Signs so far are pointing to 'yes' as it's looking increasingly well regarded the more people see of it from what I understand.

        1. the-it-slayer

          Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

          "And if two years ago, Nokia had released multi-core phones with hardware far in excess of what WP7 required for the sake of meeting the requirements of a phone two years down the line, you would not have been critical of that?"

          Why would I be critical of that? Unfortunately, Apple/Google changed the mindset of stone set OSs in smartphones and allowed longitivity with their associated hardware products. Nokia would of at least got ahead of RIM and kept within the smartphone race if this had happened two years ago. This would of given Microsoft some valuable lessons on what to do in the smartphone market. I still feel they don't get it yet.

          "It's very nice to use from what I've seen (I have WP7 so some idea of what ModernUI is like on a phone) and seems very nice to develop for and you can simultaneously develop for Desktops, tablets and phones. I don't see why you should be so confident you know that it wont do well. Signs so far are pointing to 'yes' as it's looking increasingly well regarded the more people see of it from what I understand."

          That's fair enough. At least the framework is there to make the jumps neccessary but it takes a long time to guage interest for development. There's no point Microsoft wanting a huge percentage of the market when they can't get anyone not from a major software company to develop for them to grow the app base. That's the basis of what a smartphone OS is built on.

          Anyway, when have Apple ever been feared of their competition? We wouldn't get the products they're producing if they felt they had to react to the market place all the time. On that basis, Microsoft are no different than Google in trying to stir up the market with reactionary decisions.

          1. Mark .

            Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

            "Unfortunately, Apple/Google changed the mindset of stone set OSs in smartphones and allowed longitivity with their associated hardware products."

            Not really, phone updates had been done for years.

            "Anyway, when have Apple ever been feared of their competition?"

            Apple are no different to anyone else. When Apple do something, we hear Apple fanatics tell us how the competition have to respond. Well, Apple react to their competition too, and would be stupid not to be paying attention. I don't think "fear" is the right word for a company, but similarly, no other company fears Apple or anyone else either.

        2. Starbadger

          Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

          "you cant even upgrade your WP7.5 hardware to 8"

          Of course you can, you just slap in an extra core, and sprinkle extra pixel dust on the screen.

        3. leexgx

          Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

          @h4rm0ny

          ""And if two years ago, Nokia had released multi-core phones with hardware far in excess of what WP7 required for the sake of meeting the requirements of a phone two years down the line, you would not have been critical of that?""

          they was not allowed to use an Dual core cpu with WP7, same limit applied to ram (but with 7.5 they allowed 256mb i think but IMO thats an Bad idea as you end up with an phone that cant run any thing new that need more ram or it not run well) and screen pixel was locked to one screen size, WP8 allows dual core(upto64), 3 screen size modes and 1gb of Ram

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Phone_7 (at the bottom min hardware specs)

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Phone_8

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Windows_Phone_devices

          when my blackberry dies i most likely get an windows 8 phone I mainly use it for business use (calendar and calls) do all my fun stuff on my backup android phone

          the HTC One X (1800 ? battery) i currently use but most likely going to sell it (i am selling it) and get an Motoroar Droid RAZOR MAXX (3200 battery) as battery life is really bugging me not lasting an day unless i charge it up for another hour (get an day out of it if do not use it at all 2 days if i use 2G only) as the razor maxx should get me 2 days, 1 day worst case, where as other smartphones (not just HTC) your lucky if you get day life out of it worst case 2-4 hrs), most android phones are just like iPlug phones (most of the time needing the usb charge cable)

        4. Obvious Robert

          Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

          @ h4rm0ny

          Downvoted simply for using the term 'ModernUI' without any trace of irony. Sorry 'bout that.

      2. WP7Mango

        Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

        I disagree! WP7.5 has certainly given WP8 a spring board. There are several reason why -

        1. WP8 now starts with an app store of over 100,000 apps. WP7 started with only 300. And all of those WP7 apps will run on WP8. That's a decent spring board, and the remaing missing big name apps have already confirmed that they will be coming to WP8.

        2. Nokia has increased mind-share. It has created phones which are now instantly recognisable - Lumia 800 / 900 / 920. And they stand out from all the competion, whether it's WP or non-WP.

        3. All the reviews of the Nokia Lumia 920 show that WP8 combined with innovative hardware and design does make it a game changer. The operating system alone may not be the sole game changer, but the fact that it's no longer limiting what the OEMs can do in terms of hardware design means that they can now innovate on a platform that is safe from litigation, and has already proven to be stable, innovative, and fast. Perhaps most important of all, WP7.5 has a very high satisfaction rating and the same is expected of WP8 based on existing reviews.

        1. fishman

          Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

          "1. WP8 now starts with an app store of over 100,000 apps. WP7 started with only 300. And all of those WP7 apps will run on WP8."

          That's really great if you have a top of the line WP8 smart phone - all of those apps are in the old WP7 screen resolution, so they look like crap on a HD resolution screen.

          1. WP7Mango

            Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

            Except they don't look crap because WP8 scales them smartly. It's already been proven to work in a hands-on review. I'll see if I can find the link.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Trollface

              Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

              I find your username WP7Mango rather ironic. It's all about WP8 now you need to change your username....

              PS I've taken WP8Tango & WP8Fanta

          2. Mark .

            Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

            Since when was software hardcoded at a particular resolution?

            Generally speaking, it's no trouble writing apps to scale at different resolutions. Of course there will be some that have trouble or are dumb, but then this argument applies to other platforms too.

            How do you think Android manages with HD resolution phones, when there are so many older or lower end phones still on sale with postage stamp resolutions like 320x240 or 480x320? When Iphone 4 was released, did you claim that because all the applications were written for the tiny low resolution of earlier Iphones, that they would all look crap on newer Iphones?

        2. Richard Plinston

          Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

          > but the fact that it's no longer limiting what the OEMs can do in terms of hardware design

          OEMs are still restricted as to what they can do in terms of hardware design, it is just that the restrictions are different from those for WP7. For example there is a small number of SoCs that can be used, and MS have allocated specific SoCs to specific OEMs.

          > a platform that is safe from litigation,

          There is nothing that is safe from litigation, Oracle and Apple are showing that.

          > and has already proven to be stable, innovative, and fast.

          How can it be 'proven to be stable' when commentators aren't even allowed to touch it.

          > WP7.5 has a very high satisfaction rating

          That was _before_ they were told that it was a dead-end and they still have to pay for it for the rest of their two year contract.

          1. WP7Mango

            Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

            Commenters WERE allowed to touch it. Do a search and you'll see several hands-on comparisons (eg The Verge) between the Lumia 920 and competing phones. The Lumia 920 beat all of them by miles, including the iPhone 4S and Samsung Galaxy S3.

            As it happens, Microsoft and Nokia have announced that they will be adding more features to WP7.8, including some of the extra stuff coming to WP8. So WP7.5 isn't so dead-end afterall.

            1. fishman

              Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

              It's dead since app development will move to WP8, and there will be little to no backporting to WP7.

      3. Spearchucker Jones
        FAIL

        Re: Apple fears Windows 8... (@the-ite_slayer)

        "...It costs nothing to adopt..."

        Oh really?!?

        Most mainstream manufacturers using Android pay Microsoft royalties. That cost is a direct consequence of choosing Android. It cost Samsung an *additional* $1bn.

        1. Richard Plinston

          Re: Apple fears Windows 8... (@the-ite_slayer)

          Most mainstream manufacturers using Android pay Microsoft royalties. That cost is a direct consequence of choosing Android.

          No, that cost is a direct consequence of making phones. They are paying royalties to MS for use of patents. Those patents are mostly hardware, MS would want that if they were making Bada or other OS phones.

          > It cost Samsung an *additional* $1bn.

          Yet to be appealed. And that has nothing to do with Android at all, it is because Samsung made devices that are rectangular with rounded corners. There were a few points where Samsung added bits to the UI as well.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

      I agree, and unlike these other windbags I'll keep my post short.

      WP7 was good, WP8 will probs be great.

      You need more than great to steal the iphones thunder.

      1. WP7Mango

        Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

        Indeed - you need innovative hardware coupled with WP8 in order to steal iPhone's thunder.

        And that device is the Nokia Lumia 920.

    3. Brangdon
      Thumb Down

      Re: Apple fears Windows 8...

      I don't see the article as saying Apple should fear Windows 8. It's saying Android should.

  2. Dunstan Vavasour
    Unhappy

    Saddening

    That's one of the most saddening articles I've read in a long time, because I think the analysis may well be right.

    1. HMB
      Happy

      Don't Panic!

      Having iOS, Android & WinPho 8 being strong in the market is the best deal for end users.

      Apple may throw things at Android, but damn are Android phone manufacturers hitting back at Apple. When they get this nonsense all settled, hopefully they'll learn that excessive litigation is a bad idea.

      Competition drives innovation. Apparently it also drives whiny fanboi-ism too, but you can't have everything ;)

      I'd like to see everyone do well and fight for more customers, it will make all the platforms better.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Don't Panic!

        I agree with you HMB, but as a one-man mobile developer, can we please stop at 3 major platforms, this is getting hard work.

      2. Paul 135

        Re: Don't Panic!

        Having three large American corporations in charge is NOT good for the market. The increasing Americanisation is not healthy. What we need is a dominant Android fork, out of Google's control, or the return of Meego (or whatever they are calling it these days).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Don't Panic!

          You mean Harmattan( /Meego/Maemo/thingy ) as per N9 which you can still get in these here parts and looks remarkably like the prototype for the Mango Lumias! Maybe the OS needs to be opensourced or spun off totally so it can be used by some of the smaller players. Or maybe that's happened already, I have no clue!

          1. Mark .

            Re: Don't Panic!

            The one to watch would be Tizen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen - which has support from market leader Samsung, so who knows. It's a Linux based OS that borrows from Meego (though it's unclear to me if this is Linux in the sense that Meego is, i.e., a Linux distribution on a phone, or in the sense that Android is, i.e., just using the Linux kernel).

      3. Mark .

        Re: Don't Panic!

        I agree. Whilst I like Android being the dominant platform, and I'm glad it's got a *massive* lead over the closed and limited Iphone platform, I still hope WP does well. Firstly competition is good, secondly, it'd be a bit sad if the only alternative to Android becomes Iphone.

        Remember that up until 2011, we had the two dominant platforms of Symbian and Android, with Iphone behind, or par with the likes of Blackberry. So if Nokia's switch to WP basically means the loss of a complete mainstream platform, replaced by something that isn't used as much, then that would be sad.

        I find it sad to see Android fans showing a knee jerk opposition to anything to do with WP. Also I find it sad to see Apple fanatics telling us that we should be thankful to Apple for providing competition - but they are never ever thankful of other companies, and often don't even acknowledge their existence (ever see Symbian covered in the mainstream press, despite it's massive success over Apple?)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Don't Panic!

          "Remember that up until 2011, we had the two dominant platforms of Symbian and Android"

          Back in the real world, someone made @Mark take his meds.

          "android" is what exactly? Which version, what resolution? with what functionality?

          Ios is 85% iOS 5, and 4 resolutions Ip3 Ip4 Retina, Ipad 1,2 and Ipad 3.

          From what I've seen of the android store, with stuff not working on either a ginderbread single core device, as it's too old, nor a Quad core N7 as it's too new, doesn't inspire confidence in this "android"

          Don't get me wrong, I like the widgets and other bits you can do, but Android != Ios for developers or users.

          and Symbian? Well ...

          A customer enters a pet shop.

          Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

          (The owner does not respond.)

          Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?

          Owner: What do you mean "miss"?

          Mr. Praline: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

          Owner: We're closin' for lunch.

          Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this parrot what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

          Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?

          Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

          Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

          Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead parrot when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

          Owner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!

          Mr. Praline: The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

          Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!

          Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Polly Parrot! I've got a lovely fresh cuttle fish for you if you

          show...

          (owner hits the cage)

          Owner: There, he moved!

          Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!

          Owner: I never!!

          Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!

          Owner: I never, never did anything...

          Mr. Praline: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO POLLY!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!

          (Takes parrot out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)

          Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead parrot.

          Owner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!

          Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?

          Owner: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Norwegian Blues stun easily, major.

          Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That parrot is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour

          ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.

          Owner: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.

          Mr. Praline: PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?

          Owner: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable bird, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage!

          Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that parrot when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the

          first place was that it had been NAILED there.

          (pause)

          Owner: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that bird down, it would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent 'em apart with its beak, and

          VOOM! Feeweeweewee!

          Mr. Praline: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this bird wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!

          Owner: No no! 'E's pining!

          Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e

          rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the

          bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

          (pause)

          Owner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh,

          we're right out of parrots.

          Mr. Praline: I see. I see, I get the picture.

          Owner: I got a slug.

          (pause)

          Mr. Praline: Pray, does it talk?

          Owner: Nnnnot really.

          Mr. Praline: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?

          Owner: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)

          Mr. Praline: Well.

          (pause)

          Owner: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?

          Mr. Praline: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Windows

      @Dunstan

      I happen to own a Winphone (7.5) and I think its very /very/ unlikely.

      As long as Microsoft doesn't change their design and usability (combined with user friendlyness) its not going to happen any time soon and will only attract a diverse crowd by itself. Not the masses they hope for.

      Example? Well, take the 'Office hub', a key feature. I open a new Word document, type in a word "test", double tap it to select it and now I want to set this to bold and italic. How to proceed?

      You click the 'format' button at the bottom, then a selection comes up, allowing me to select between bold, italic, underline but also several different colours. I click 'bold' and I'm right back where I started. So now I can go again; click format, click italic and I'm done.

      And this was the easy part.

      When I'm taking quick notes (using OneNote) and I want something to appear in bold (not too unreasonable I'd say) then I can't just click on an icon to change the texts formatting. Because the only (directly accessible) options I have there are "format as list, add a todo check marker, insert picture, insert audio".

      I have to wonder here... How often would you format text in comparison to adding pictures or audio data?

      Alas; for options such as 'format' I now need to open the menu and select the option from there, and of course the same issue as mentioned above applies.

      Its usable, its doable but I can't help wonder if its really as userfriendly as people claim.

      1. Mark .

        Re: @Dunstan

        As someone who uses and likes Android, my first thing to note would be: I can't edit a Word document at all! Come to that, I was surprised to see that there isn't even a notepad application as standard. I downloaded one, though it doesn't even do formatting. There's probably some that do, if I wade through the adware and crap - maybe even one with Word compatibility.

        So even with the UI not perfect, I don't think that's much to criticise WP for :)

        I could pick holes in the UI of Android, so I don't think this is much of a factor in market share.

        1. Richard Plinston

          Re: @Dunstan

          > I can't edit a Word document at all!

          There are several apps that can, some of them free. Some OEMs may install these out of the box, others call this 'shovelware' and let the user decide which they will install.

          It is called 'choice'.

  3. Simon Rockman

    It's the operators who will decide

    Don't think of it as Microsoft and Nokia against Apple and Google. think of it as Microsoft, Nokia AND ALL THE OPERATORS. The Microsoft model of supporting operator billing for downloads means there is a lot more interest in WP8 from the people who buy all the handsets.

    EE's taking Nokia 920s to launch LTE isn't so different to Orange's taking Nokia 2146es to launch PCS.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's the operators who will decide

      That logic only has one flaw: the operators don't really have any incentive to subsidize Windows Phone 8. Operator billing isn't interesting/valuable for high-end customers (that have either contracts or are used to app purchases using credit card data), only for low-mid range PAYG devices and developing countries, both not targets for the current set of WP devices.

      Microsoft also plans to bring Skype to the mobile plane, what made them even less friends on the operator side, both from the revenue side and because it disrupts a decade of investments in the IMS(esq) network architecture they moved to when adding LTE and likely includes SIP VoIP support. But mostly because operators hate Skype.

      1. dogged
        Coffee/keyboard

        Re: It's the operators who will decide

        Microsoft also plans to bring Skype to the mobile plane

        Are you suggesting that iOS and Android don't support Skype?

        Seriously?

        You owe me a keyboard.

        1. WP7Mango

          Re: It's the operators who will decide

          No, what he's suggesting is that WP8 integrates Skype directly into the People Hub (WP8 Contacts centre), so that Skype can be used in the same way as normal phone calling/receiving would be done.

          WP7 and WP8 are not app centric - they are task centric. The idea is that you don't need to worry about what app to use in order to do something, because the task you are doing will use the relevant services that the app exposes for that purpose.

          Facebook integration was an excellent example in WP7 where Facebook events were linked to the WP7 Calendar app, Facebook images were automatically pulled and organised into the Pictures Hub along with all your other albumbs, and Facebook communications such as Chat, Likes, Comments etc were incorporated into the People Hub.

          In the same way, Skype will integrate seemlessly into the WP8 operating system in a way that it support task-centric activity, as will any other 3rd party app which takes advantage of the WP8 API for this purpose.

          1. dogged

            Re: It's the operators who will decide

            @WP7Mango

            I know. But to assume that this makes Skype more dangerous to operators is stupid. Laughably stupid. Which is why I laughed, through my coffee.

            1. WP7Mango

              Re: It's the operators who will decide

              I agree! It's not more dangerous.

              In a few years time I can see voice calls disappearing completely and being replaced by VOIP. Then contract plans will simply be based on data usage, rather than Calls + Texts + Data (as it is currently). The bandwidth used by Voice and Text can then be freed up for other purposes.

              It therefore makes sense to integrate VOIP apps such as Skype seemlessly into WP8, ready for the future!

              1. This post has been deleted by its author

              2. Paul 135

                Re: It's the operators who will decide

                Who cares. Android has had fully integrated VoIP/SIP support for quite some time. Android's modularity also allows proprietary standards like Skype to integrate seamlessly too.

        2. T.Omoto

          Re: It's the operators who will decide

          iOS and Android cannot do anything about Skype, as it's an app they have no control over it. However, Microsoft owns the Skype brand so operators see here a way to actively deliver phones that do not have Skype on it. Microsoft (obviously) refuses this, and so there are more levels to this discussion that might be aparent (including trying to sell a "convenience" package where Windows Phones with Skype are sold with a more expensive data plan). So it actively hurts device sellers makers to use Windows Phone when deailing with the operators. Just ask Elop (on last April Nokia stockholder meeting):

          Stephen Elop: So, thank you for your question about Skype. Indeed, Microsoft did buy the Skype company as part of the ecosystem that comes with Windows Phone and Windows and so forth, so that’s quite correct. The feedback from operators is they don’t like Skype, of course, because for those operators who have a traditional wire-line business, traditional telephone business, it could take away from revenues.

          And, so what MSFT has done – and we’ve been part of these conversations as well with operators – is as you correctly say, if operator doesn’t want Skype installed on a Windows Phone from Nokia or any other company, then the operator can make that decision.

          Now, you’re right: it can be circumvented. But of course it’s on all Android devices, it’s on iPhone devices, it’s on iPad, it’s on all of those devices. So in fact what we’re doing with the operators is turning it around into an advantage. Instead of them just complaining about Skype on Android or Skype on iPhone, with Microsoft and Nokia, we can have a conversation that says “ok there, is this Skype thing, is there a different type of partnership we can do that recognizes that voice over IP like Skype is coming no matter what, but maybe we can do something creative that generates incremental revenue for you.” Some operators are looking at bundling Lumia, Skype and their own services with higher-bandwidth allotments to actually charge the consumer more and generate more revenue for them. So by actually controlling the Skype asset, we can begin a conversation about how we can have a better Skype-based relationship, which was impossible for operators to do before. So it’s actually quite a bit more advanced than whether operators like or don’t like Skype; they actually want to engage in a conversation about what does this mean and how could we do something that we couldn’t do before. Thank you.

      2. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        Re: It's the operators who will decide

        Somewhat odd assertion about operator billing: I'm a high earner, have always had my phones on contracts, and I use operator billing exclusively.

        Why? Because it costs the same, is just as quick, and it means one less company has my credit-card details filed away somewhere.

        If one example isn't enough: My small app sales are >75% operator-billing, even in such "developing markets" as Germany, UK, Sweden. Actually, in every country where operator billing is available, it accounts for the majority of my sales. It's just an easier, more secure way to pay for things.

        Apple doesn't do it because it means revenue sharing, and Apple's huge financial success has been down to ensuring that absolutely nobody gets a slice of their pie. Google is more open-minded, as the company makes more from advertising in "free" apps than sales: they even give the operator the entire 30% cut when purchases are operator-billed. Google, however, lacks the global reach that can let them set up deals with every carrier in every country, and Samsung, who could really help them here, are not getting involved (this is an overlooked benefit that Nokia have brought to MS - Nokia already had these arrangements in place before jumping in with MS)

        On the initial question, the operators' incentive to subsidize WP8 is simple - more competition between suppliers helps to keep those suppliers honest. It also gets them out of the stupid situation where they have to spend their earnings subsidising expensive handsets rather than investing that money in their infrastructure.

        That's the wider issue here: a subsidised market has lead to operators shovelling money into Apple's pockets so that customers can get an iPhone for a fraction of its true price, because iPhone is what the customers want above all other options. When subsidies started, handsets were intrinsically expensive, but this is no longer true. What happens now is that Apple in particular are continuing to charge a supernormal price for their product in a market where customers are demanding cheaper contracts, and the shortfall this creates is being plundered from infrastructure spending (or previous profits - let's not pretend the operators are angels).

        With stronger competition that can offer the kind of desirable product and range of services that Apple does, operators wouldn't have to engage in such self-destructive measures. It would mean more money for them, of course, but also for infrastructure improvement, and if you're an Apple fan, it would even mean cheaper contract pricing on iPhones too, as Apple would have to soften their current stance on pricing (right now, they have no need to). Nobody would lose except the people who are expecting a $600 stock to double again.

        1. h4rm0ny
          Thumb Up

          Re: It's the operators who will decide

          @Kristian Walsh. That was one of the best posts I've read on here in ages. My only question for you is why you didn't write the article we're all replying to.

  4. bdam
    Headmaster

    What kind of logic is this?

    "While Windows Phone 8 is an impressive step forward for Microsoft, its biggest selling point is that it's not iOS and not Android."

    Neither was Symbian.

  5. jungle_jim
    Trollface

    WP8 is coming

    Prepare your anus

  6. Atonnis
    Devil

    Fanboi amusement...

    Off topic a bit...but I do enjoy the world of fanboi-ism that the mobile market has generated. The look of dumbfounded outrage when I point out to Android and Apple fanbois that they license technologies such as Activesync from Microsoft is always worth a chuckle. In the same vein the speed at which WP users will spring to the defence of their chosen platform always makes my neck ache.

    I'm not so sure that Microsoft aren't just working a 10-year plan. Nokia has only just reached the negative figures that we all knew it would reach, but the techie pundits all seemed to think would happen within a month - something which shows their massive lack of financial knowhow compared to their love of technology.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fanboi amusement...

      > that they license technologies such as Activesync from Microsoft

      The fact you have to get this license if you simple want to keep two devices in sync is frankly ridiculous, is that really something to crow about?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fanboi amusement...

        Not the patents (if it even involves any), the actual protocol

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: Fanboi amusement...

          Well, I don't like it but I'm not surprised.

          My phone syncs with Exchange using push email, and ActiveSync is the way Microsoft does that.

          The reason I don't like it is the same reason that SMB is public and free to use, namely interoperability with the monopoly holder.

  7. Matt Bryant Silver badge
    Boffin

    Self-installer Android phones/tablets?

    One block that kept Linux out of many vendor ranges was the way M$ used to punish those that shipped Linux systems. In fact, it got to the point where you weren't supposed to ship a blank system, it had to ship with an OS. IIRC, at one point Dell were shipping blank PCs with a copy of DrDOS in the box to get round this. There is no such ban on naked handsets or tablets, and if the vendors can make OS installation easy (say by external DVD attached via a micro-USB connector, or by an USB key on a cable) then the handset vendors could make an end run round Apple's lawyers. Phone companies could even sell the handests naked with a SIM and instructions on how to download the OS of their choice (Winphone or Android).

    I have a sneaky feeling that's also why hp is still pushing WebOS, because they want to be a second option to Windows if Apple does kill or seriously impair Android on tablets.

    1. HMB

      Re: Self-installer Android phones/tablets?

      End users sometimes have trouble installing Office, let alone installing an OS.

    2. TheOtherHobbes

      Re: Self-installer Android phones/tablets?

      That'll never happen because the telcos won't allow it.

      They're very protective of their mediocre networks, and they don't want non-approved software on them.

      Of course almost any geek can crack iOS and get root access to a proper unlocked OS.

      But that's different to allowing everyone to do it.

  8. Dyason
    FAIL

    Nothing to fear

    I had my first experience with a windows phone the other day. It couldn't even receive a file via bluetooth. After half an hour I gave up trying to do a custom ringtone too. Lets hope they add basic features like this into WP8 because they're so far behind the competition they're just throwing money down a large hole at the minute.

    1. Systems
      Go

      Re: Nothing to fear

      Yes, Windows Phone 8 will be able to transfer files with Bluetooth:

      http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-8-bluetooth-profiles-revealed-obex-confirmed/

      and will have custom ringtones:

      http://www.wpcentral.com/more-windows-phone-8-new-bing-features-custom-audio

      You have no need to hope, it's all there.

    2. WP7Mango

      Re: Nothing to fear

      That's the point - WP8 does indeed deliver all those things that people now expect, and a whole lot more! That's why WP8 supports Bluetooth and NFC - with one of the data sharing options being Tap and Share for the NFC function.

      BTW, custom ring-tones are simple on WP7 - but it requires the media to be saved as a type called Ring Tone in Zune before you can use it as a ring-tone. Apps exist that simplify this whole process. I would expect WP8 simplifies this too.

      WP8 is such a huge leap from WP7 that there is virtually no comparison, other than some of the core fundamental concepts such as Live Tiles and Hubs.

      1. HMB

        Re: Nothing to fear

        I wish my Samsung Galaxy Nexus with vanilla Android Jelly Bean could do custom text message sounds.

        1. fatrat
          Thumb Up

          Re: Nothing to fear

          Install lightflow from the market to get per-contact sms/mms notifications + sounds.

          1. Jason Hindle

            Re: Nothing to fear

            "Install lightflow from the market to get per-contact sms/mms notifications + sounds."

            Yes, that's the beauty of Android. If there's something about it you don't like, well there's an app for that.

        2. Paul 135

          Re: Nothing to fear

          Can you not just place a file in a "notifications" directory on your SD card?

        3. Levente Szileszky
          WTF?

          Re: Nothing to fear

          All my Sony Ericsson Xperias in the past 3-4 years did allow me to customize all sounds and alerts including message.

      2. fishman

        Re: Nothing to fear

        "WP8 is such a huge leap from WP7"

        We've heard this for years.

        WP7 is a huge leap from WM6.5

        WP mango is a huge leap over WP7

        WP tango is a huge leap over WP mango.

        1. WP7Mango

          Re: Nothing to fear

          We've heard this for years because it's true!

          WP Tango is NOT a huge leap over WP Tango. Nobody claimed it was.

          WP Mango (WP7.5) was a substantial leap over WP7.0

          WP7 was a huge leap from WM6.5 in terms of UI, performance.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Windows Phone 8 might spell the beginning of a climb to relevance for a desktop vendor breaking out its latest PC operating system at almost the same time."

    It MIGHT also mean another Zune. Can we please have articles that report facts and not fluffy expectations please.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Reporting facts?

      El Reg has a few of those articles from time to time. But Asay's are _intended_ to be opinion pieces, and this one had the sad ring of truth to it.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So one of the strongest market positions, will be displaced by a competitor thanks to "increasing relevance", "survival" and some other random miscellany.

    What have you been smoking?

  11. Andrew James

    Until the non-tech-site-reading masses are made aware of the merits of windows phone 8, and until there are a selection of apps that are at least in some way related to those available for android and ios.

    The two non-techies i know who have a Windows Phone 7 mobile have both said they wouldn't have another, despite their initial positive reviews of how well they seemed to work. It seems the longer term user experience just hasnt been good enough.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Same here, I found out at a recent funeral that a handful of my relatives do in fact have WP7 devices. Not one of them had anything good to say about them though. I also tried hard and utterly failed to persuade my wife to even try out a Lumia 800, and we ended up with another android.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There definitely is space for another OS in the smartphone market, in my opinion, though. You have the super locked-down, tied to hardware iOS on one side, then the slightly chaotic, disjointed mess that is Android on the other, with all it's OEM and carrier bloatware, fragmented version ecosytem, inconsistent default launchers, etc.

    I think there is a market for a more tightly controlled set of smartphones, from different vendors and different price points and features, whilst still maintaining some level of consistency from phone to phone. The main obstacle of Microsoft being so far behind the pack, not the product itself.

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      Sir

      "The main obstacle of Microsoft being so far behind the pack, not the product itself."

      Didn't they say that about the original xbox as well?

  13. Turtle

    There's Targets And There's Targets.

    "Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi posits: "I am sure that vendors in the Android ecosystem are wondering how long it will be before they become Apple’s target."

    Maybe the vendors in the Android ecosystem are also wondering how long it will be before they become Googlerola's targets.

  14. Philippe
    FAIL

    Good analysis but you forgot the main issue.

    Nobody vaguely sane would want a Windows Phone.

    1. RICHTO
      Mushroom

      Re: Good analysis but you forgot the main issue.

      But those who are totally sane will be queuing up for one....

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Er Mr Author

    "No, the real Windows Phone 8 advantage is actually that it's not iOS or Android"

    A dog turd isn't christmas or chocolate cake but I don't see that as an advantage to eat it. What a fucking ridiculous assertion.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Buy our stuff or we'll sue you ..

    "While Windows Phone 8 is an impressive step forward for Microsoft, its biggest selling point is that it's not iOS and not Android .. I am sure that vendors in the Android ecosystem are wondering how long it will be before they become Apple’s target"

    Wonder no more ...

    Microsoft licenses Android

    "We have ... consistently taken a proactive approach to licensing to resolve IP infringement by other companies, and have been talking with several device manufacturers to address our concerns relative to the Android mobile platform", link

  17. Psymon
    Windows

    All fanboi-ism to one side...

    I held off getting a smart phone for a very, very long time. Firstly it was the data plans/contracts. A smart phone is just a very expensive (and bulky) phone if you can't use a data connection, so until infinite data contracts fell into line, I wasn't interested.

    By which time, WinPho7 was on the horizon. Being a sysadmin of a largely MS estate, the idea of having the same OS on my phone as my managed network appealed greatly, conjuring dreams of vastly improved integration and manageability. As any sysadmin will tell you, mobile devices have steadily encroached into our lives like an unmanaged viral outbreak. Blackberry doesn’t go as far as we would like, and Apple are just a joke for Sarbanes–Oxley.

    WinPho7 also appealed on a home level, with aspirations that my phone would seamlessly tie into my homegroup, unifying my media and communications experience

    When WinPho7 arrived though, the reality fell far short of the dream. It is NOT related to Win7, as we all know.

    So, I plumped for Android for my personal choice, and our corporate mobile policy rattles on, muddled and semi isolated from the rest of our infrastructure.

    While I do really like Android on my HTC Sensation, I’ve already seen the adverse affects that market fragmentation has had on Googles OS. The problem is that the end device specs vary wildly. I wish I’d held out a little longer, and got the One X, like my friend. Ever since installing the Ice Cream Sandwich update, response times have been just a little sluggish, and occasionally grind to a crawl when too many apps get left open. On the other end of the spectrum, it seems that there are a great many apps that could have had a little more polish, but you get the distinct feeling the developer was going for compatibility with lower specced models.

    I loath to admit it, but side-by-side, the facebook app on IOS is just that little bit nicer and more responsive, and this loses me vital bragging points down the pub against my much loathed apple touting comrades.

    Two things in my mind make Win8 stand out. Firstly, it is essentially the same OS that desktops and laptops will ship with, so should tie into a server 2012 domain very nicely. Obviously optimistic speculation, but in theory, group policy management, centralised updating, and unified message integration should be as easy to manage as the desktop estate. In the home, MS have already done a wonderful job of making Win7 home computers play nicely together, so hopefully they’re planning to up the game even further in Win8.

    Secondly, MS have chosen to tightly control the hardware specs. While this does reduce opportunities for innovation, it makes the lives of app developers a whole lot easier, and should in turn mean a smoother, slicker experience for the end user.

    It’s still early days, and much dust to settle. While some commenters have expressed their scepticism about how much influence this legal wrangling will have, it is not the only variable on the battlefield. MS have got a lot of catching up to do, but they have a lot of promise. Perhaps while the two giants are fighting, it will give MS enough elbow room to push ahead?

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Gone WP7 for that reason. Bored of iOS and there's no way in hell I was going to get a big pratt phone from Samsung. The phone equivalent of driving a Mitsubishi Shogun or some other annoying fat ass SUV.

  19. Steve Evans

    WP8 may not be Android...

    But if they have icons with round corners, or one of the other ridiculous patents the US patent office has granted Apple, they will have Apple coming for them.

    If Apple don't defend their patent, they risk losing it.

    Unless MS pay Apple a large chunk (see quoted rate from Samsung trial) for each phone of course.

    In which case why should Apple care? The iphone might have a good margin, but I doubt it works out as well as getting $40+ per device out of MS and not having to do a cent's worth of work or support in return.

    1. Big_Ted
      Thumb Down

      Re: WP8 may not be Android...

      WP8 may not be Android...

      But if they have icons with round corners, or one of the other ridiculous patents the US patent office has granted Apple, they will have Apple coming for them.

      Read the news, Apple and MS have a mutual "we will not attck each other on patents" agreement already....

    2. Turtle

      @Steve Evans

      Apple and Microsoft signed agreements not to sue each other years and years ago - one such agreement in 1985 and another in 1997. (There might be other agreements, not sure.)

      (For something similar, recall that Apple and Google had an unwritten agreement not to poach each others personnel so as to artificially deflate salaries, or at least keep a lid on them.)

      http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/24/business/company-news-apple-and-microsoft-disclose-a-1985-pact.html

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation

      http://corporate.findlaw.com/contracts/planning/preferred-stock-purchase-agreement-apple-computer-inc-and.html

      1. Steve Evans

        Re: @Steve Evans

        I'm sure there are a few other companies, and probably the EU lawyers who would regard that as US protectionism...

        Queue different crowd of lawyers to the feeding trough!

        1. dogged
          Stop

          Re: @Steve Evans

          No, it's called "cross-licensing". Without it, there would be no cellular phones. At all.

          And to the OP - "If they have icons with rounded corners" - they don't. Tiles. WP uses tiles and if there's one thing you can certainly say in its favour, it's that it is not copying ANY current mobile OS in any way whatsoever. Apple could try to sue Microsoft but there is absolutely no way they'd ever manage to make a case. Not even a jury full of rabid fanbois and Judge Lucy Koh could find any similarities however hard they tried.

  20. Big_Ted

    "No, the real Windows Phone 8 advantage is actually that it's not iOS or Android"

    What a load of rubbish, the big advantage Windows 8 has is that it looks like window 8Phone. Once people get used to Windows 8 on a new pc they will not be worried about the look of it on a phione, and the fact that it will be simple to sync phone to pc to skydrive etc without being remotely techically n=minded is a plus to them.

    Add to that the aps they will use on their pc will be that same on the phone and people will be happy to use it.

    No matter how much techies hate the lost of the start button and the tiled start window in its place your normal home user will be quite happy after the initial shock.

    As to Windows Phones being made by HTC etc, so what? most will be the same or similr to the Android model but with a different OS on being the main difference, that would cover them so that say the Galaxy S3 if banned because Apple get it block on some UI patent will still be imported but with windows on instead and can easily be set but Samsung so the Android can also be installed by the owner to make dual boot.

    1. Andrew James

      Loving the way you assume people would want to mess around and replace the OS on their mobile phone with something completely different. In the real world, I don't know a single person who has done this. Not one. 99% of the people i know wouldn't want to, and the remaining 1% wouldn't bother if they did want to.

      Its like saying "hey, you know, if you don't like that new windows start screen you would be able to get around that if you installed Ubuntu instead!!" ... not many people would take you up on it.

      1. h4rm0ny

        You've misunderstood. Big Ted is not saying that users will be changing the OS on their phone but that manufacturers would be able to do so if a patent problem reared its head. E.g. if Samsung couldn't sell the Galaxy SIII in the USA with Android on it, they might theoretically be able to slap WP8 on it.

  21. Paul Shirley

    customers choose the winner, not suppliers

    It may well be tempting for vendors to play safe with whatever MS throws at the wall but ultimately the public chooses which phone it buys, not the vendor, not the carrier.

    They can influence our choices but even then the carriers have more power. But guess what - the carriers offer a pretty wide choice of phones at all service tiers. So they'll happily stock WP8 devices for those that want to buy them, iPhone if Apple will let them, Android for the bulk of smartphone sales and a whole raft of lesser phones as well.

    What's convenient for the phone manufacturers is largely irrelevant to the people that actually buy the phones or the sales figures.

    And BTW: outside of the US Apple aren't doing too well damaging Android, MS are taxing it but haven't managed to drive it anywhere near unprofitability. It looks like the Android side is beginning to fight back so the best days in the war (from Apple+MS POV) may be over now.

  22. Dana W
    Happy

    This is the funniest thing I've seen all day. Thanks for getting my day going with a laugh!

  23. Grikath

    Just a thought

    Actually, a couple of people above already touched the issue on why Matt may well be right(-ish) in this one:

    One of the strengths of the Fruity line is that people basically got the same OS/UI combo on all their devices. With Win8 and WP8 Microsoft now has the same, which will in a year or two mean that the *young* (16-21) generation will seamlessly switch between devices without even stopping to think about it.

    Techies may rant and rave, but the reality is that most young people use a windows PC/laptop for "productive" stuff, and an android phone for "social stuff". Simply because it is what they ( or the bank of mum and dad) can afford.

    Most of those young people will replace that combo in the space of a year or two. Enter the currently planned line of "microsoft" products with phones, tablets, and PC/laptops with a single OS/UI paradigm. It doesn't take a genius to see what will happen, especially since the microsoft line will simply be *cheaper* than anything apple will offer. Android simply does not carry over to PC/laptop, as linux, over the years, in all its' flavours has simply failed to provide a platform that gives a single-install solution that lets the *average* consumer do the stuff he/she wants to do without doing "complicated stuff".

    Win8 and WP8 will get a decent market share. Not because it is especially brilliant, not because Big Business will adopt it en masse, but simply because between hardware development and decades of pre-priming the average consumer will buy what's on offer and what he's familiar with, and in that respect microsofts' current course actually gives the consumer exactly that.

    Love it or hate it, it's the way things work.

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: Just a thought

      That's certainly the MS plan, there's no other credible reason they need Metro as the new Windows on the desktop.

      But I find no problem switching between XP on the desktop and Android on my phone. XP or anything like it wouldn't work on the phone and Android is equally wrong on the desktop. I'm middle age and presumably less adaptable than youngsters but simply don't need a cross platform UI - it solves a non-existent problem.

      So is the underlying assumption that familiarity with Win8 on the desktop will drive WP8 adoption at all credible?

      Metro is the solution to a Microsoft market share problem, not it's users problems and it's not for the benefit of it's users. My opinion is they've borked the Win8 experience for nothing.

      1. Sir Runcible Spoon

        Re: Just a thought

        "it solves a non-existent problem."

        Didn't people say that about the whole tablet platform?

        Do you have a sense of de ja vu?

        1. Paul Shirley

          Re: Just a thought

          "it solves a non-existent problem."

          Didn't people say that about the whole tablet platform?

          Many failed attempts to sell PCs in tablet form blinded most in IT to the possibilities of swapping full functionality for convenience. If you're expecting a PC of course this looks like a loser but normal folk don't use PCs the way we do. In any case tabs solve a real problem, convenience and do it *by being different* to PCs.

          Metro/Win8/WP8 tries to make disparate devices used in different ways look,feel&behave the same and does it by compromising/limiting the PC experience. That is not a solution to any problem I have.

          1. Sir Runcible Spoon

            Re: Just a thought

            Well, I didn't they didn't solve a problem, I just said that at the time that's what people were saying. Draw your own parallels.

      2. Grikath

        Re: Just a thought

        "So is the underlying assumption that familiarity with Win8 on the desktop will drive WP8 adoption at all credible?"

        No, because it will be the other way around. Familiarity with WP8 will drive adoption of Win8, especially if tablets will continue to evolve and become more than just expensive toys, and microsoft will cut its' support of legacy OS like XP.

        It's the start of a process which will take a couple of years, but the logic behind the strategy is sound. I wouldn't be surprised if Win9 turns out to be a "single" OS which would simply determine what type of device it's being installed on, and simply installs the bobs and bits needed for that device under a single UI.

      3. Richard Plinston

        Re: Just a thought

        > So is the underlying assumption that familiarity with Win8 on the desktop will drive WP8 adoption at all credible?

        An alternative is that TIFKAM on the desktop will piss them off so thoroughly that they avoid WP8 and WinRT.

  24. My backside

    Dear El Reg

    When will you stop publishing the drivel this idiot keeps writing?

    Thank you

  25. A. Coatsworth Silver badge
    Windows

    "No, the real Windows Phone 8 advantage is actually that it's not iOS or Android"

    I wholeheartedly agree with the author here.

    I'm stuck with a still trusty, but very old and badly aged Nokia phone. I haven't migrated to a new one for a simple reason: I dislike Google. The problem is I dislike Apple even more, and I'm pretty sure I can't be the only person in this situation.

    When HP bought Palm, my hopes went thru the roof: I had found HP iPaqs to have rather acceptable hardware, but appalling behavior, and Palm could have been the solution. I shed a tear for WebOS when HP killed it.

    Now there's a new option in town, and given my (admittedly somewhat irrational) aversion for both Apple and Android, I may as well give Win Phone a chance.

    1. Daniel B.
      Boffin

      You're not the only one not on the iOS/Android bandwagon

      The main reason I have stuck with Blackberry is precisely this: I don't trust either platform. Ok, that and BBM, and BB's security model/encrypted FS & stuff.

      I have no guarantees that Google's Android won't slurp that data, and iOS well ... I don't like walled gardens.

      WebOS is dead, though it might come back.

      Nokia killed Symbian and all its alternate mobile OSes.

      And I still don't like MS.

      It seems that my next smartphone choice is going to be very, very hard.

    2. Richard Plinston

      Re: "No, the real Windows Phone 8 advantage is actually that it's not iOS or Android"

      > I shed a tear for WebOS when HP killed it.

      It wasn't HP that killed it, it was MS waving its "we have WOA and you not using it will stop your 'loyalty' discount on ALL MS products".

      Same as they did with Netbooks.

      1. dogged
        Black Helicopters

        Re: "No, the real Windows Phone 8 advantage is actually that it's not iOS or Android"

        you forgot your icon.

        Here, take one.

  26. JW 1
    FAIL

    Who sells them, though?

    We were recently shopping for new phones for the kids. Three Verizon stores (albeit in central Oregon) don't carry WinPhone of any sort. I asked why and they said with shrug "too many customer service issues". One guy said they just take up wall space from the items that sell.

    This was admittedly a small sampling but Oregon's tech heavy but if they don't sell to the point where three stores don't even carry them. That's a problem.

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: Who sells them, though?

      My local phone shop has a couple of Nokia 800s on display. They said that they had only sold 1, ever, and volunteered that 'it was already obsolete'.

  27. RICHTO
    Mushroom

    Best article I have seen on the subject.

    Microsoft are going to eventually take the #1 market position here. They have the better, more secure and more original product and the better ecosystem.

  28. stewski

    As tech journalism goes, this was rubbish.

    "the smartphone market is where Microsoft must win, because it offers the lowest price points"

    when comparing tablets, phones and traditional computers.

    Cheapest win X phone in the UK = £300

    yes smartphones can be cheap, no MS havent got a cheap one.

    I'd destroy the other rubbish, but I cant be arsed...

    1. DocWilson

      Cheapest is £300? Not true

      Admittedly these were time limited deals, but within the last year, both the 710 and 610 were available for little over the £100 mark.

      Even now, Carphone Warehouse are advertising the 710 at shade under £230 and the 610 for a little under £170 - both of those less than the £300 you claim.

      I think CPW recently made the Lumia 800 available on an £11.50 monthly contract (over 24 months) on their Talk Mobile network.

      At these prices, I'd say they're competitive, even if they're limited (apps-wise) to what other phones can do. The UI, the Zune music player are excellent, and with Nokias you do get free Sat Nav and other apps.

      The cheap Android handset (Samsung Galaxy Europa) I bought for the other half last year was pretty dire, and I reckon a WP7 model for twice the price would've "felt" twice as good in terms of build quality/speed/UI. The Europa got sold off (and replaced with a far better Galaxy Ace) within a year, whereas I'm still not feeling the need to upgrade my near-2 year old Omnia 7 as it does everything I need it to do.... I'm missing the Kobo app, but there's always the Galaxy Ace to resort to for that side of things!

      Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked, the point I wanted to make was that there are WP7 handsets available for less than £300. I reckon MS have got too much of an uphill climb to make a dent in Android sales, but as long as there are options for the people that want to choose from all of iOS/Android/WPx/BB/WebOS/feature phones, all the better

      1. WP7Mango

        Re: Cheapest is £300? Not true

        I managed to purchase an unlocked Nokia Lumia 800 on Amazon for £200 - in fact, I bought two of them (one for me, one for the Mrs) because at that price they were amazing value.

      2. Paul Shirley

        Re: the point I wanted to make was that there are WP7 handsets available for less than £300

        "the point I wanted to make was that there are WP7 handsets available for less than £300"

        Yes, the Lumia's were swiftly discounted. It's what happens to phones that aren't selling. That's why you could buy the £549 Xperia Play for £129-149 6 months and 2 official price cuts after launch. It's also why you'll struggle to find a cheap iPhone or Samsung S3 - they're selling well full price.

        Being able to buy a cheap Lumia does not say good things about the brand or inspire confidence in it's future.

      3. Richard Plinston

        Re: Cheapest is £300? Not true

        > Even now, Carphone Warehouse are advertising the 710 at shade under £230 and the 610 for a little under £170

        Yes, they understand that they need to dump the stock on hand, possibly at cost, before the new WP8 phones become generally known, and those existing models become completely unsalable.

        1. dogged

          Re: Cheapest is £300? Not true

          Why do you want WP to fail?

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

  29. Clark Nova
    WTF?

    Flawd logic

    Mr. Asay seems to assume that the members of the "android ecosystem" are so scared of Apple's lawsuits, that they are prepared to dump all their android plans and switch to a WP8 centric lineup. Well, I simply can't see this happening.

    Don't get me wrong, being hit with a $1bn fine is certainly a big risk. However, being marginalized in the smartphone market is a much bigger one. So far, Windows Phone handsets have been selling poorly, and the one company that went exclusively with that OS (Nokia) is in a free-fall. The makers of the top-selling android phones will have to be crazy to bet their entire future on Microsoft.

    So what will happen next? All the current android makers will keep producing android phones, and will do whatever they can to minimize their legal risks (I believe this is the reason that HTC is trying to hold a gun to Apple's head with its LTE patent). Samsung and HTC will offer WP8 devices as a way to hedge their bets - just as they've been doing with WP7 - but neither will expect these devices to be their top sellers. And WP8 will have to compete fair-and-square in a rather saturated market.

    Maybe WP8 will succeed where WP7 has failed. Perhaps it has some revolutionary feature that everybody will crave. Perhaps the telcos will subsidize it so heavily that Apple and android won't be able to compete. Or perhaps there are enough people that dislike both Apple and Google to support a third ecosystem. Personally, I don't believe any of these is true, and I expect Windows Phone's market share to remain at the single-digit percentage.

  30. mikebartnz

    @ DocWilson

    Quote"The cheap Android handset (Samsung Galaxy Europa) I bought for the other half last year was pretty dire, and I reckon a WP7 model for twice the price would've "felt" twice as good in terms of build quality/speed/UI."

    That would have to rate as the most stupid post I have read apart from RIGHTO's which are just a joke.

  31. MacroRodent
    Mushroom

    M.A.D.

    "With Apple's thermonuclear patent war against Android, however, the Android ecosystem will be feeling less than secure in sticking with the open-source market share leader,"

    But I wonder what happens when the Koreans and the Chinese get good at the game of filing tons of crap patents and then suing?

    Apple might yet call for US patent reform...

  32. stewski

    http://www.reghardware.com/2012/08/22/ten_low_end_android_phones/page2.html

    or the g300 for under a ton.

    Look you may have got nokias last lot of lumias at 170 for all I know

    But MS/Nokia aren't even really playing the low price point game at the moment.

    P.S. if you bought a rubbish cheap android phone, try reading a review or two first, don't blame choice on your inability to choose.

    When comparing tablets, to smartphones on price remember you can also pick up a nexus 7 for about 150

    and that isnt even the bottom end on price...

  33. Magnus_Pym

    I hate Task Centric

    I don't want the phone deciding for me which service to use to make a connection because they will always choose what is best for the maufacturer, telco or ISP not what is best for me. There is no way in hell that a phone is going to be set to default to a free (or even an alternative) service to make a phone call when there is a chance of these guys getting paid for it.

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: I hate Task Centric

      While reading the description of WP's task centric behaviour I was more than a little puzzled at why Android is described as app centric. I click on an a link/document/launcher in a hub app OR anywhere else and Android goes off to find the correct app for me, which seems no different. It appears the difference between app and task centric is in the bias of the commenter!

      You hate task centric *without user control*. Android embeds its task->app mapping in the OS, not the apps and it gives the user control of that mapping. I don't need to trust anyone else to choose what service my phone chooses, I tell it which to use, I decide if it should remember that choice or ask every time.

      My biggest task centric problem has always been making sure all FaceBook tasks die a swift death. Maybe Android is app centric because I can remove the FB apps and the FB tasks die with them ;)

      1. RICHTO
        Mushroom

        Re: I hate Task Centric

        You clearly havnt used WP. You dont have to have ANY App mappings in WP for the supported social networks. Facebook / Linked In / Windows Live Twitter is all built in using a single interface.

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Back to the original article

    So if I read this right, the article is making the following assertion.

    1. Manufacturers are worried about legal status of Android

    2. Therefore manufacturers will start making more Windows 8 phones

    3. Therefore people will buy more Windows 8 phones

    It's (3) that seems the non-sequitur to me. Do people buying smartphones really not ask or care what OS is on it? Will they just buy the latest shiny gadget regardless?

    ISTM that Microsoft's easiest targets will be first-time smartphone buyers, and people who are dissatisfied with Android (but don't want or can't afford Apple).

    Microsoft's hardest targets will be (1) people who already have an Android phone and are generally satisfied with it; and (2) people who bought a Windows 7 phone and regret it. [Fortunately for Microsoft, not too many people bought WIndows 7 phones]

    Satisfied Android users will value continuity of services and apps when upgrading.

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