LG accused of 'egregious invasion of privacy' over TV data collection

UPDATED LG is once again fending off allegations that its expensive consumer hardware gathers extensive information about users and their surroundings for the benefit of its advertising business. The latest concerns center on smart TVs that researchers claim continued capturing audio after voice recognition was activated, …

[Philip Storry]

LG would like to clarify one minor detail: LG considers breathing whilst within 1000 lightyears of their product to be an act of granting consent.

Thank you for your consent on this matter.

[elsergiovolador]

It's called direct care, it's the same loophole NHS uses to shove Poolantir up ours.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why?

Why would I want to give the TV access to my home network at all? If I want to stream anything, I'd continue to do so via my Roku.

[NATTtrash]

Re: Why?

"The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment".

George Orwell, 1984 (1949)

THX to Steve (and Wendell) and colleagues

[Luggagethecat]

Re: Why?

This

[Missing Semicolon]

Re: Why?

Recent TVs won't work properly unless you connect and accept.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: Why?

Yes and no. If your definition of 'works properly' is 'shows a picture presented to the HDMI input' (as I do) then the Panasonic I set up this morning, after a bit of head-scratching, makes me happy(ish).

I don't use streaming, just local sources one of which is a Magenta TV (German TV) set top box. I route the sources through an HDMI switcher what extracts the audio and lets me hear it through a decent sound system synchronously with the pictures.

The Panasonic selected none of the 'would you like' options, though it did position the selector over the 'accept all' - you know, personalised advertising, audio spying etc - and to its credit it did not require a network at any time (unless you want to use the supplied applications, which I don't). The network is set (now) to do not remind me.

One minor issue which took me a while to sort out: the Panasonic was turning off the Magenta TV box as soon as it connected; it recognised the box, advised me that keypresses would be passed through, and then turned it off. Amazing. Turns out that the HDMI ports are by default 'enhanced' and when that's deselected, things work as they should. Though I'm amused that on/off and channel selection is passed through, the volume control isn't. So you might still want two remotes...

Anyway, we'll see how things go.

[Captain Badmouth]

Re: Why?

An internet search for”non-smart tv” will bring up a British supplier oh dumb tv’s.

[Hugo Rune]

Re: Why? "If I want to stream anything, I'd continue to do so via my Roku."

The same Roku that would not let me even tune in my Hisense Roku TV without an account and shows adverts on the home screen? Only lasted for two years until the backlights failed. Good riddence to cheap rubbish.

[Guy de Loimbard]

There was me, at home, creating VLANs for trusted and non trusted devices, pihole and various blocklists and wondering if it is too much and I'm being paranoid?

If LG were giving the devices away, but letting end users know the caveat to the free hardware, is your information is a free for all, that would be a different matter.

Asking you to pay for hardware then mining you too?

It really is taking the piss now isn't it?

[A. Coatsworth]

"Allegations"

I kind of understand El Reg's need to cover their own asses on this kind of reports, but those were not allegations. The video was a smoking goddamned gun

[CoyoteDen]

Re: "Allegations"

El Reg knows they hacked the TV to make it do most of what they "found" but wanted to run a scary headline anyway.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "Allegations"

Proof please.

Or delete your account.

[CoyoteDen]

Re: "Allegations"

In the video, starting at 34:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA&t=2040

They rooted the TV, and the exact quote from the video was "this changes the functionality LG has built into their software"

Everything they did was only possible because they had root on it. If you get root on any computer you can make it record audio and send it to you. That doesn't mean it does it out of the box. If it did they would have said it did.

Some other things in the video are simply misrepresented. The "network scanning" is mDNS and every device does that, it's how they find each other for printing, casting, file sharing, etc.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: "Allegations"

They rooted the TV, and the exact quote from the video was "this changes the functionality LG has built into their software"

No it does not. Rooting a device just gives someone superuser/admin rights to elements of the functionality

that LG has built into their software

. If they'd installed their own firmware to enable functionality that wasn't in LG's code, you might have a point. Or you're just highlighting the vulnerability with these types of devices.

It's one of those 'just because you can, it doesn't mean you should' thiings. Why build a camera into the bezel of a TV or monitor where it's generally in the wrong place for doing things like Zoom calls? Why not include a clip-on camera, like the good'ol days which users could choose to use, or leave in the box? Why fully mic up a victim's house for the kind of intrusive surveillance that would normally require a warrant, and not just let users use their remotes? Implementing the ability for users to shout at their TVs or fridges just opens up those devices to abuse.

The camera surveillance one could also get interesting and have some severe legal consequences. So suppose an LG TV is installed in a kid's bedroom and records a kid dressing, or undressing. Maybe that is stored locally, maybe those images are uploaded to LG. Possession of CP is frequently a strict liability offence, making it is typically a much more severe offence. Do you think LG execs want to end up in jail for this? And if/when they do, can we make sure their cells have LG TVs in them so we can watch what happens to them?

Some other things in the video are simply misrepresented. The "network scanning" is mDNS and every device does that, it's how they find each other for printing, casting, file sharing, etc.

No, every device does not do this, or need to do this. It's just lazy design and widens the attack vectors when devices are compromised. How many times have you printed from your TV? How many times have you wanted to cast, or file share too or from unknown devices? But again it's one of those things LG has admitted to doing. It wants to build up their device maps to make our data more valuable to them, and their advertising customers.

[Wade Burchette]

Re: "Allegations"

Did you watch the video carefully? It was trivial for Steve and Wendell to root the TV, and when they did, they saw that it could record your voice even when off. Furthermore, when they hacked the TV, there was no notification that the microphone was listening. As they stated in the video, imagine a hacker -- i.e. the US, Chinese, or Russian Government -- using your TV to spy on you. Or, imagine a hacker listening to your conversations with a doctor, also stated in the video. Or, imagine a hacker using your LG TV to proxy attack your network, also stated in the video.

So, yes, rooting the TV can change the functionality. But it only took them a few hours to figure out how to do the first time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "Allegations"

It also makes me wonder whether they made it so vulnerable or included that functionality at the behest of perhaps a government body.

[bitwise]

Re: "Allegations"

LG say they "own the glass" and know which devices are nearby.

They say they can follow from an advert being watched on TV to someone buying a product.

If you don't think this data is all being sent to LG Advertising then I have a bridge to sell you.

[BPontius]

Re: "Allegations"

If you had paid attention to the video, you would know they explained that a hacker would also root the television. Standard operating procedure in hacking, gain root access. But Gamers Nexus did not add the multiple microphones or the recording functionality, speech to text translation and the ability to transmit all back to LG servers. Neither my Android phone nor my previous iPhone automatically scanned the network for my PC or other devices on the network. My landlords smart television (non LG) has never shown up on my PC or phone as the LG television does. Even Windows 11 doesn't automatically go searching the network for video casting devices.

[bitwise]

Re: "Allegations"

The TV used dark patterns to get consent to send voice data to Korea, in some cases it didn't ask at all for ones that auto updated.

The TV was doing text to speech on all speed around it without them making it do it, it was listening when they were within 60 feet and carried on for minutes.

The TV was listening to speech during the setup process to ambient conversations which it shouldn't have been.

It did none of his because it was hacked, the hack just exposed it.

I don't know why you are making these same comments on every site, it's either being deliberately or maliciously contrary.

[Blazde]

Re: "Allegations"

Allegedly, dozens of senior LG employees were recorded on video saying they "own the TV", "own the glass", "own the screen", "own the operating system", "own the living room[*]", "know who's in the household", "what they're watching on TV", "know their secondary devices", "how to reach their mobiles", "..in real time (soon once they use AI to tame their firehose of rich data)".

It's not known for sure whether these employees were cleverly tricked or paid by Gamers Nexus to say these things, and those clips then somehow dishonestly smuggled into the numerous 3rd party interviews with serious marketing people that are referenced, or whether they merely said these things because it's their job to explain their product to their actual customers and then sell a live feed of data from their mark's living room[*] to the highest bidder.

[*] Everybody does still keep their one TV in the living room, right? Because it's the semi-public room where we entertain guests. Definitely no TV in the privacy of the bedroom at least. I mean, obviously. I don't know I'm even questioning it. Ignore me.

[RobDog]

Re: "Allegations"

The employees said those things not in response to Gamers Nexus questions, they were snipped from existing recorded interview

[Blazde]

Re: "Allegations"

You forgot your allegedlys!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "Allegations"

Well,

Thankfully have Philips Tv - one Saphi/Whatever the use as cheap os now - downstairs and Philips Tv - Google Tv upstairs plus a Hisense in my sons room, so spreading the bet, plus least get amazon or vouchers for flogging internet, tv usage and mobile to kantar and google, so get something for it. But, have notice Kantar getting rather pockey about everyone signing in and giving data and oh the regular guest needing an avatar lol.

But, least I know Kantar are dirty data sloggers and give me something, but yeah LG and rest take the piss on recording when tv is on standby, thankfully the tvs are on smart plugs and go off off when no one is using them in the day.

If Google, Philps want to see my hairy backside then fill there boots lol, I mean not sure they will get much out of aging tech round the house silo to different wifi networks and wp3 secured and that I watch a lot of Nat Geo, Discovery, History, Sky Sports for F1 and Netflix like everyone else lol, but will be having words with HiSense if they are recording through hidden cameras my son as a minor and explain what research that is for.

Even Kantar know not to have kids stuff monitored or they will be in trouble.

Always found LG nice Tv when we have AirBNB places, but they OS bloody slow and full of ads anyway.

[neilg]

Re: "Allegations"

El Reg doesn't have "Asses" - Unless they're in a field behind the office. Methinks you mean "Arses".

[brainwrong]

Re: "Allegations"

The browser tab here for the front page contains the truncated text "Technology news and anal"

Can we please have the old page design back, it had big friendly letters. This one is a glitchcore horror.

[MaChatma CoatGPT 2.0]

Re: "Allegations"

Can we please have the old page design back

Is this any better? https://www.theregister.com/Week/

[A. Coatsworth]

Re: "Allegations"

Upvoted, but I learned americanese so "ass" and not "arse" is the word that automatically comes to my mind.

[werdsmith]

Re: "Allegations"

An ass has four legs, hooves, long ears and makes a really strange noises. Secondarily, a person who is foolish and clumsy may be equated with an ass and referred to as such.

Any other use is the usual result of a misspelling becoming standard because some people are asses.

[A. Coatsworth]

Re: "Allegations"

Always thought the use of the word "ass" instead of "arse" was originally a way to soften the swearing that ended up changing the meaning of the word... But perhaps it is not.

[UCAP]

Nice IP address and port you are sending your data too. Shame if it got blocked by my firewall.

[Pascal Monett]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

My TV is not a phone, a PC or a router.

A TV has one job : show an image.

There is no such thing as a "smart" TV. I want my TV to be absolutely abysmally dumb.

Just show me the film, that's your job. Period.

[Sean o' bhaile na gleann]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

"Just show me the film, that's your job. Period."

Couldn't agree more, Pascal Monett.

For many years now, I've been using a Philips 558M1 55-inch display hooked up to a Windows PC just for showing films or watching TV.

The TV bit is supplied via a Hauppage adapter that gives the whole range of FreeSat channels.

Granted, I can't watch encrypted channels like Sky Sports, etc, but that's not a problem to me.

The Windows system is severely stripped down in terms of functionality and internet access is only available when I manually connect to the router.

I'm experimenting with moving over to Linux, but am having an unreasonable amount of difficulty with the Hauppage stick there. I'll get it to work, eventually, though.

Cannot understand why consumers opt for a "smart" TV.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Cannot understand why consumers opt for a "smart" TV.

Because most consumers aren't grizzled IT veterans like us, so are blissfully unaware of the risks and instead seduced by the supposed 'benefits' of becoming part of LG (and other vendors) spyware ecosystem. And even for us IT types, it's becoming increasingly harder to find 'dumb' TVs that just act as displays.

I think regulators need to make an example to reverse the steady erosion of privacy. Which they may be persuaded to do, ie if they can fine LG 314m x £10,000 for privacy invasions and abuses.

[Excused Boots]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

"And even for us IT types, it's becoming increasingly harder to find 'dumb' TVs that just act as displays.”

Marketing - telling potential buyers that get this TV just connect it to your WiFi and enjoy all sorts of built-in streaming services, no need to mess around with additional boxes and connecting them up and/or configuring them- it’s one-shop stop!

And for many people that’s actually quite compelling.

I very much doubt that the cost of the ‘smarts’ adds too much to the selling price, so purchase one, never ever give it your WiFi details (say you don’t have WiFi), depending on your level of tech competence, configure a separate VLAN with no access to anything else on your network, and connect it up once via ethernet if it needs to register itself and/or pull a firmware update, then disconnect and voila, a dumb display.

I suspect that many of us on here would know how to do it, why to do it, and have the proper kit to enable it to be done - the vast majority of the population? Less so. Neither should it be necessary.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

how to turn a smart tv into a normal dumb tv

then disconnect and voila, a dumb display.

should be obvious for those struggling to find a dumb modern quality tv, just don't connect it to the network. i suspect that will become harder in the future when they build a cheap 5g modem in them that connects to the national LG 5G SA slice.

I suspect that many of us on here would know how to do it, why to do it, and have the proper kit to enable it to be done - the vast majority of the population? Less so. Neither should it be necessary.

exactly, consumer purchased the tv in good faith, they shouldn't have to go to egregious lengths to protect their privacy from their purchase especially when it was never explained that their conversations & viewing preferences would be traded for profit by the manufacturer. Hiding that detail in the T's & C's doesn't count

[Missing Semicolon]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

You can't "not connect to wifi". A set I used recently covered the screen with "Complete setup, connect to Wifi" dialogue about every 30 minutes.

[I could be a dog really]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Which is when you need a separate network that just blackholes it. Until it then starts complaining about no internet connection instead.

If I bought a new TV that wouldn't work in that way, I'd take it back, making sure that the packing etc was very obviously used and demand a refund from the retailer because it doesn't work properly.

That latter act, which unfortunately not enough people will do, is the only way to force change. If a manufacturer gets a reputation for lots of returns, then retailers will drop them or increase prices to cover the losses (and thus make that brand less attractive.) But given that the technically literate like us are in something of a small minority, the numbers we can come up with won't force any change.

The alternative is the very expensive and costly legal route - which I doubt any of us here could afford.

[Graham Cobb]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Your TV seems to be broken. Send it back. And while you're about it: let us all know what make and model in case we want to not risk the hassle of getting a broken one when we buy our next TV.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

should be obvious for those struggling to find a dumb modern quality tv, just don't connect it to the network. i suspect that will become harder in the future when they build a cheap 5g modem in them that connects to the national LG 5G SA slice.

It shouldn't really be necessary. Or is increasingly necessary given 'TV' is increasingly online. So the 'TV' in my living room is a vintage Panasonic. It's TVL-friendly on the off-chance they ever get a warrant to inspect my TV. At which point they'll be greeted by a handy message that it can't find a DVB service*, which is pretty clear evidence that it's never been installed for any purpose that needs a licence. But I digress..

So that 'TV' is connected to a Playstation, which is used either so my experiments can humiliate me in games, or watching Netflix and DVDs. Sony's not the most privacy conscious, but more tolerable than a 'smart' TV. One of the potentially illegal aspects of the LG story is consent, informed consent and contract fairness. One example given was in the T&Cs you're supposed to accept, you're meant to state that you've obtained the consent of everyone in your household. The experiments are all under 18 so can't legally consent anyway. I'm also not (probably?) their legal guardian, so can't consent on their behalf.

But suppose the experiments want to watch something on Netflix, or YT. Fine, except before they can do this, they first have to create an LG account, read through 50,000 words of legalese, theoretically understand it.. and then maybe watch a YT short. There's also Netflix & YT's legalese, but hey ho, we certainly get a lot of legal content to go through to make any informed choice. Or very large legal bills having an expert explain the legalese to us. But LG doesn't need to be in this loop given any agreement should just be between me/the experiments and Netflix and YT.. But if you accept the LG stuff, it then owns your living room.

Which is FUN! Especially given the forced arbitration and waiving any rights to any class action.. Which are clauses that should be illegal in themselves. But also has some potential for FUN!. So maybe I own the device and consented. My partner and the experiments didn't, and thanks to features like 'ambient noise' recording & automatic speech to text transcription could have had their legal rights violated, aren't party to any agreement with LG, and could then become members of any class action.. Which massively expands the scope and potential damages against LG given pretty much anyone who's been near an LG TV could become members..

*Is UK broadcast even DVB any more? So if I connected an aerial, could it even work? TV's got to be well over a decade old now, and no idea what's been happening in the broadcast world.

[I could be a dog really]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Which are clauses that should be illegal in themselves

I think these would fall foul of the UTCCR (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations) which (in short) make certain contract terms illegal and unenforceable. There's also GDPR which would make something like a contract requires you to agree to something (e.g. have your information slurped and sent to "somewhere undefined" for "undefined uses") in order to do something where that agreement is not actually necessary (e.g. to simply watch TV, or YT, or Disney+, or ...) illegal.

Is UK broadcast even DVB any more?

Yes, although quite a lot has now changed to DVB-T2 which is more spectrum efficient but older devices can't decode.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: if it needs to register itself

That's already "Take it back to the store as unfit for purpose" territory.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

In addition, try finding one without all this BS installed, all so they can charge more for it. Essentially, you're paying more for the TV because it has spyware installed.

[werdsmith]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Increasingly, service providers and broadcasters are attempting to shift to broadband internet as the primary medium for TV. Satellite and DVB terrestrial is being diminished.

The legacy channels are being replaced by streaming, like radio has been replaced by a user choice (or algorithm choice) streaming. With the exception of live events like sport, TV viewing (and radio) ceases to be a shared experience and so something cultural is lost.

[RMclan]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

I live in a tower block which used to have a Sky TV feed to each of the apartments from a set of satellite dishes on the roof.

Following a fire in my apartment, I moved out temporarily for 17 months while the insurance refurbished it. I made sure the renovators preserved the double micro coax feeds in the apartment which were luckily not fire damaged.

When I moved back in, I booked a Sky engineer to come and install a new Sky Q box for me. The engineer couldn't get a signal on either of the coax connectors in the apartment and couldn't detect one in any of the cables in the utility cupboard outside my apartment or for 3 floors up and down.

It turned out that while I was away from the apartment the Sky feed from the roof was turned off, and the only way we can now get Sky is with a Sky Stream box connected to the new fibre broadband that has recently been installed in the building. I had to cancel the Sky Q order and replace it with a Sky Stream order which didn't require an engineer to isntall it, they just sent it in the post.

[werdsmith]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

This is where it is going. The broadband being the medium for everything means everything is two way and the broadcasters can watch what we are watching and use the information. They really don't want to use the legacy broadcasting infrastructure because they throw everything out blind. We get targeted advertising.

The Sky Glass is an example, works over broadband by WiFi, goes anywhere and needs only a power connection. If you want to watch something you don't look in the TV listings to see what's on and when. You choose what you want to see and watch it right then.

I notice that the new series Grand Tour arrived, all 6 episodes appeared at the same time. I don't like how there is no schedule now I'm too used to having be there at the right time to see something when it is broadcast and if I miss it then the option is to look out for the series being repeated sometime in the future. Pre-VCR even!

[tiggity]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

I have a "dumb" (non smart) TV - but they are increasingly difficult to find - especially if you look for larger screen sizes (smaller ones still easy to get as a solid "dumb" TV market for caravan / mobile home owners etc. - situations where you often do not have internet connectivity so all those "smart" TV features are pointless).

[Boris56789]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Take the whole App cult in both business and at home, most consumers will buy that overpriced tat for both work and play, so similar just want to have the latest shiny shiny, its bad enough work wise with the marketing and phb and c suits walking round with their apple fair and complaining when it craps out daily.

Plus to be fair to LG they do seem to have a large play in actual decent image quality to price for Tv yr in and out, even if the WebOS is just an ad flinging piece of garbage.

Its not the most secure and safe and decent products and services that win, its the ones that can show the trash shows and looks shiny shiny as most Tv wont even have the picture setting changed and look so over exposed from the shop setting out of the box, so no one is going to look at if they are having the house and kitchen sink flogged, they will just think its fancy when they are emailed or shown ads for stuff they were discussing 2 minutes ago.

[NATTtrash]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Cannot understand why consumers opt for a "smart" TV.

Simples:

[A] It is the cheapest option (Deskjet principle, sell the device cheap, make sh*tloads of monies with the grabbed data) and

[B] did you try to buy a new dumb TV? They are simply not available if you look/ ask for it (ignoring the "Oh dear, this sad dumb pensioner is not going with the times!" look of the sales person)

[werdsmith]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

You simply buy the telly and only plug power and the RF rooftop antenna into it (if you still have one or have a cable for it). Decline the setup process and just scan for channels.

[I could be a dog really]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Until it "won't work" (either at all, or properly) until it's been "properly" set up. Or (see a few comments above), it "works" but keeps pestering to be set up, thus making it rather useless as a TV due to the interruptions.

[Pascal Monett]

The look of the salesperson is the last of my worries.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

>>> Oh dear, this sad dumb pensioner is not going with the times!

Ah, is this why I see so many "PureCremation" and "Leave money in your will to..." advertisements on my TV? /s

BTW, I know we brought it up here some considerable time ago, but: How many of you have a physical ON/OFF switch on your telly? My Samsung ones don't...

<tin-foil-hat-mode>

Would this be why manufacturers don't like ON/OFF switches? (and know everybody is too lazy to pull a plug, "Convenience!").

</tin-foil-hat-mode>

Also isn't it somewhat surprising that "climate conscious politicians" never did a "USB-C manditory" thing on that by now?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Would this be why manufacturers don't like ON/OFF switches? (and know everybody is too lazy to pull a plug, "Convenience!").

An opportunity to sell smart homes and smart wall sockets. LG probably sells those, so if you buy their surveillance solutions, you might be able to power off the TV at the socket, but the socket may still be listening. And then the snag with 'smart' TVs is waiting for them to boot again. But they'll probably show you an ad while it's booting.

But the Gamer's Nexus video really is quite shocking and exposes a massive set of security and privacy risks. Don't give it an Internet connection, and it might not work. It'll still be surveilling and logging anything it can find using WiFi. Connect it, and it'll upload the take. Try and isolate it with a VLAN or DMZ, and it'll still be listening, and acting as a pretty powerful proxy for any remote user who can find the TV and compromise it. But with so many security risks, the only safe solution is to never buy any LG or similar devices.

Kinda curious what, if any GHCQ & CESG's advice is on this subject & if they warn government never to buy these 'smart' devices. Or government suppliers, although that could make site security audits quicker. Arrive, see an LG display in reception or the meeting room, fail the audit and revoke the site's security certificate.

[werdsmith]

Hauppauge

As a Linux based replacement, a TV HAT on a Raspberry Pi (works perfectly with the 1GB Pi4 that remains free of RAMflation) works with TV Headend so you can develop your own viewing client.

[Sean o' bhaile na gleann]

Re: Hauppauge

@werdsmith:

I tried an Rpi4 with a TVHat earlier,but was not satisfied with the results (frequent pixellation and audio/video sync problems)

Had not heard of TV Headend at that point, so gave up.

Thanks for the tip... I shall try it

[I could be a dog really]

Re: Hauppauge

Can I give MythTV a plug ? It's not really designed for live viewing, and takes a bit of setting up, but it's what I've used for most of my TV consumption for the last decade+

[Joe W]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

Because non-smart TVs are becoming as rare as rocking horse shit.

Next they are coming for PC screens...

[Boris56789]

Re: if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing

That brings back memory Hauppage TV adaptor cards, we had a few RM pc at school with them in - for acessing interactive material, more like the IT admin fancied watching telly on his lunch break lol and couldn't get away with a tv.

Always fancied trying them out, but then smart tv with the apps came along after the tv sticks etc, so couldn't see the purpose. On the next console round I am thinking of creating a diy steam machine as have enjoyed the steam deck a lot and reminds my inner child of the Sega Game Gear that I never got.

You could probably use Now Tv sub for the Sky Sports if you so wished etc, but the Linux side is better for games, but sound seems to be getting better, but iffy and same with capture cards and devices like Hauppage, I think its the mobile thing of wanting to just support Big names, so depending on Linux variant you may find Unbuntu supported to a point and RHEL, but anything more exotic its faffing about.

I am tempted to move over to Linux for laptops and maybe son PC down the line - as its just mostly Libre Office and Robolox sort of fair and steam that is played on said device and a bit of web stuff nothing too fancy, but only headache I can see is the art or video editing side being a pain still.

[Dan 55]

Re: GamersNexus hacked a TV to make it do everything they "found"

I watched the video (or rather, had it running in the background because it's two and a half hours) and there were two main things they wanted to demonstrate which where:

1. How onboard software spies on you by default. This included:

a) EULA requires thousands of "page downs" to read. It would take hours to read, nobody's going to do it.

b) a privacy toggle has no effect other than a flag is changed saying "privacy is off" and "privacy is on" then LG decides what to do with the data their side.

c) One of the microphones is always on (I counted three microphones - remote, TV, and what appears to be noise cancelling also on TV).

d) TV has TTS and buffers upload if it's not connected to the Internet until it is connected.

e) TV has ACR and constantly identifies what you're viewing with the aim of targeting ads to other devices in your household.

2. How the onboard software is so shitty that it can be easily hacked to spy. This included:

a) Two exploits to get a shell worked. At least one was remote due to ancient version of Chromium.

b) Debug logs written to ramdisk can be monitored by a rogue process installed via exploit and sent out.

c) TTS and microphone can be monitored and sent out.

d) How it can be used as a proxy/jump point to spy in a corporate network.

The thing I didn't like so much was the hardware hack to raise the mic sensitivity but I suppose it came within the spying demonstration.

The thing about LAN discovery was, and I can't remember as it was in the background, either if it found its way into the data uploaded to LG or if it was easy for rogue software on a hacked TV to monitor it or both. Either way, what is the reason for the TV to run LAN discovery if you're not playing files shared across the LAN?

Finally LG extend the software as they wish to increase telemetry as they see fit without your permission via updates because they believe "they own the screen", yet the software quality is abysmal and can easily be hacked. It's a cocktail of bad practices and contempt for the customer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GamersNexus hacked a TV to make it do everything they "found"

>>> The thing I didn't like so much was the hardware hack to raise the mic sensitivity but I suppose it came within the spying demonstration.

Was that the part they increased the volume with Audacity? I believe they tried to show there that, if you mute the mic, it still registers sound, it still stores it, and with amplification, can be restored to usable state. I might be wrong though...

[Jellied Eel]

Re: GamersNexus hacked a TV to make it do everything they "found"

Diagnostics and not unusual. I guarantee if you look at the system logs of your phone, PC, or Wifi router you will see the same thing.

Device scanning and snooping are not diagnostics.. Diagnostics would be 'Is the TV working?'. A TV doesn't need to know anything about my mobile phones, or the kids mobile phones when they're over. It certainly doesn't need to snoop on neighbours networks or devices, nor snoop on the postman's mobile when they're delivering a letter. If they aren't my devices or networks, I can't authorise LG to spy on them because they're not mine, and those foreign devices can't be authorised to use my TV or networks. No consent is possible, let alone informed consent, so this would seem a pretty de-facto breach of GDPR and CMA laws.

That was mDNS traffic. Look at the Wireshark decode of it. You will see every device on your network doing that, it is how they find each other

They don't need to find my watch, thermostat, air purifier or anything that isn't strictly necessary to do the job of a TV.

Again, they made it do that. The TV has software onboard to generate transcripts, that is used by the voice command feature. Typically it only activates when you hit the button, they forced it to stay on.

Or when that feature is turned on by LG. In the unlikely event that I use an LG spy hub to watch say, Lanterns, it has no business generating a transcript of whatever I might be shouting at the screen, or talking with my partner.

But-

LG Ads Solutions' official fact sheet, which predictably requires you to enter your personal and contact details to access, states that there are 49 million LG TVs in the US powered by its webOS, but the company's total reach extends to 363 million "addressable secondary devices."

LG knows damn well what they're doing, why they're doing it and they have no business doing anything with the 314m 'addressable secondary devices', especially if they're not LG devices and the users can't give informed consent, and as a TV, LG has no business addressing in any way, shape or form. Just because there's something in LG's T&Cs or 'Privacy' policy, it doesn't automatically make that behaviour lawful because fairness in contracts is a thing. And it could be FUN! to sue LG for false advertising because their 'Privacy' policy does nothing other than infringing it.

And LG boasts about doing this to boost their ad business so they can make money monetising all the data they collect, and shouldn't be collecting. All so that their LG fridge can display ads for crypto scams and other garbage.

It's a strange state of affairs where if I want to buy a new TV or fridge, I have to think about how to secure that device. Can I put it on a DMZ? Can I disable it's wireless, cameras and microphones and have it function purely as a TV or fridge, and not a spyware hub surveilling everything I, or my guests do inside my own property? And if I have a dinner party, to avoid any liability, do I need to give guests a copy of LG's privacy policy, get them to sign a consent form* and a liability waiver in case any of the PII gets abused by LG, or someone that hacks LG?

*I guess that one could be somewhat useful, depending on what games are planned for the party. Yes, you consent to a grown up game of Twister, complete with ample baby oil, but no, you don't consent to the TV watching and recording you..

[stiine]

Re: GamersNexus hacked a TV to make it do everything they "found"

How many wifi networks can your smarphone see? How many of them have LG devices on them? Can you get your neighbors to delete all of your devices from their LG logs/uploads?

As an aside, this is why my wifi network names are obscene.

[Blazde]

Re: GamersNexus hacked a TV to make it do everything they "found"

Yes, they did hack it make it capture audio while off. The point was demonstrate it has that hardware capability, and that either LG, or some 3rd party attacker using the uncovered vulnerabilities, could use it to record you even when you think your TV is disconnected from the network, safely air-gapped, and off. If the TVs were well designed then there simply wouldn't be power to microphones while off. Just like decent smartphones and laptops have their cameras physically wired to the little LED that tells you the camera is activated. So, it invites the question of why they designed a TV this way?

You seem hung up on the point, but even if you don't think it's a big deal there's a 100 other bad things they go through. At the risk of sounding cheesy, it's a bona fide tour de force. You can't demolish it just by shouting 'hack'.

[ChoHag]

Re: GamersNexus hacked a TV to make it do everything they "found"

> If the TVs were well designed then there simply wouldn't be power to microphones while off.

FTFY

[Aaiieeee]

Automatic Speech Recognition can transcribe in real time using about ~100Mb RAM. All the work is done on hardware the customer paid for. LG pick up a juicy transcript when the TV next checks in.

It feels paranoid to say, but turning it off a the mains is the only way to be sure.

see: https://huggingface.co/moonshine-ai/moonshine-tiny

Edit to add: its becoming normal for TVs to demand connectivity to the internet to use them, even as a dumb image box. The LG board are looking forward to listening to your most recent tizzywizzy!

[JLV]

My 10yr old 1980p Samsung, for all its warts, is looking better by the day.

It works, is a lot less interested in updating its software - typically to add more useless Samsung services - than when it was as a pup and is too dumb to serve an ad automatically.

Seems like there would be money on the table selling premium, ad-free, TVs but our benevolent ad overlords surely can read their spreadsheets better than me.

Still, between people feeling stretched, subscriptions and entshitification is there the risk of a newfound desire for sustainability and frugality developing amongst the golden geese? Much the same arguments apply to older cars.

[Jamie Jones]

Enshittification hasn't hit projectors yet, fortunately.

Ever since I was a teenager, I decided that when I grew up, my screen would be a display only. I'd have plugins for the various services.

The idea wasn't really special - this was the time when audio separates was the thing, and I wanted to extend the idea to video, too.

30 (*cough*) years later, this is virtually becoming a necessity!

[Dan 55]

Those cheap Android projectors? More than half are residential proxies and botnets.

[Jamie Jones]

No, proper ones! I currently use the Epson eh-LS1200B but cheaper options exist!

Though to be fair, the price/screen size advantage over a TV that was always important doesn't really exist now that the prices of 100" TVs have gone down.

[Editra]

So does my tween (12 years and still going) Samsung 1080p plasma TV, bought for peanuts when the technology was being phased out.

I rue the day it'll croak, as I'm afraid blessedly dumb-as-a-rock TVs (in other words, properly operating TVs) will by then be nigh impossible to find.

[wolfetone]

I too have a 1080p LED/OLED Samsung TV that's 13 years old. It's in use every day.

I've told the wife that if it were to break tomorrow I would do everything I could to fix it. If I had to throw it away I would do everything I could to get as near a replacement as I could which didn't include all of this stupid "smart" TV nonsense.

However she doesn't quite see it like that. She wants it gone and it will be replaced with something from AO for £200. Hopefully it breaks and I fix it before she notices!

[AndrueC]

I'm going to have words with my washing machine about this.

[Ken Shabby]

Tell it to “spin on this”

[Number6]

Last time I bought a TV I deliberately bought a dumb one. I suspect that's hard to do now, so it's a case of how well it works in the absence of a network connection.

I also have a VLAN set up on my home network and that's what all the IoT devices sit on, to keep them from poking around the rest of my stuff. That might be beyond most people's ability to set up though.

[BartyFartsLast]

Dunno, the (non LG) 32" curved monitor and Bluetooth sound bar I use is pretty dumb without a PC attached.

[Annihilator]

I long for the days when my TV was just a TV.

[Editra]

Agreed. As another poster stated, a TV has one and only one job: display whatever (readable) signal it receives from its input ports.

Any other functionality is as far as I'm concerned an anti-feature. There was no clamor for it, yet they're being foisted upon us nevertheless.

If home electronics were a properly functioning market, customers would still would be able to buy dumb TVs alongside the smart ones. As the present thread (and many others) show, there's a sizeable pent-up demand for these, I suspect even as a premium.

I for one would be more than willing to pay upfront for the expected revenue from the ads I won't see (a few hundred bucks at most, if that), provided I then get a real dumb TV.

[I could be a dog really]

TV has one and only one job: display whatever (readable) signal it receives from its input ports.

Any other functionality is as far as I'm concerned an anti-feature

Until reality (i.e. family) get involved. The grand kids are used to having the likes of Netflix and Disney+ on demand. SWMBO expects to have various streaming services (she's currently watching something on iPlayer in the next room), and so on. I'm severly outnumbered.

I held out against an Alexa device, until one appeared as a Christmas present for SWMBO and I went apes**t when the offspring who gave us it then proceeded to hook it up to the main WiFi (I logged in to the WiFi management and blocked it until it was reset and put onto the IoTat SSID.)

For me, that battle is lost, all I can do is contain the damage.

[Tron]

Smart TV = Telescreen.

Our Orwellian dystopia is nearing completion.

[elsergiovolador]

Want

All people want is for telly to tell them government thinks they have done a good job today.

Remember to go on your knees before the telly in the evening and say a little prayer to the corporate gods.

[mtp]

What to block?

My excellent GL-MT6000 router runs OpenWRT and has enough blocking features to make my PiHole redundant. I block many standard sets of adverts plus these two LG specific lists (apologies for the excessivly long URLs)

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/TheShawnMiranda/LG-TV-Ad-Block/master/list

https://gist.githubusercontent.com/mcrumm/972070dfe67d44ed61c4247563cbf07c/raw/62ad84e3df6404d5b05dacd5bcfdc5e97e97a1ea/LG%2520Smart-TV%2520Blocklist%2520Adlist%2520(for%2520PiHole)

Together these do a excellent job but does anyone know of any other lists that I should add?

[DS999]

Don't block anything

What I did with the Roku TV my mom has was when she got it to temporarily change her router's SSID, set it to that SSID so it could update itself, then change the SSID back and it was left with an SSID it can't connect to.

If a TV complains about that create a second SSID on a VLAN that has no connection to the internet and give it that. If it complains it can't access the internet, get a new TV.

The problem is thinking you can block this sort of behavior in a OEM that sees no issues with the sort of behavior detailed in this article. You will NOT be able to block it all, or even if you do so today you have no assurance it won't get around that tomorrow. The only solution is to permanently cut your TV off from the internet and use a set top box. Using the apps on a smart TV is stupid anyway, unless you want to replace your TV every five years when the OEM decides they don't want to support it anymore and the apps no longer get updated and one by one stop working.

[stiine]

Re: What to block?

To be truly safe, you have to add 0.0.0.0/0 to any of your block lists.

[Andy Non]

So, not only monitors

now add LG TVs to my "never buy" list.

[DS999]

Re: So, not only monitors

You'll have to add all OEMs there as they all do this sort of thing to various degrees of awfulness, and any who are less awful see the ones being more awful and think "great idea why didn't we think of that!" and add it in a future model or software update.

See my post above - buy whatever TV you want and just don't let it connect it to the internet. Nobody tech savvy enough to be reading the Reg should be using the TV's builtin apps for streaming, they should be using a set top box.

If not being connected to the internet causes it problems I would 1) call the OEM for support and tell them I'm using it somewhere that doesn't have an internet connection so how I can fix that and 2) if they can't then return it and buy a different TV.

[Sproggit]

One Moment Please - the Law would like a Word...

A quick check - for UK LG customers, at any rate, suggests a number of protections that may be available to them. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice: buy your own advice...

1. Part 2 of the Consumer Rights Act of 2015 - "any term in a consumer contract or "Terms of Use" agreement must be "fair, transparent, and prominent". If a company presents you with terms that are obfuscated, then even if you click, "Agree" those terms are legally non-binding and unenforceable. [Meanwhile, your data is gone, baby, gone...]

2. The Statutory "Fairness Test" - a term fails this if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it "causes a significant imbalance in the parties rights and obligations under the contract to the detriment of the consumer". In this case, I think the Gamers Nexus video on YT has that nailed down - because they have clips of actual LG employees bragging that this is the case.

3. The intersection with the UK Data Protection Act

The DPA ensures that contract terms cannot be used to bypass UK Data Protection laws. Under the ICO Guidenes, consent to process personal data must be "freely given, specific and informed".

4. The "Transparency and Prominence Rule"

A retailed cannot hide predatory or unusual clauses deep within thousands of words of legalese. Under Section 62 of the CRA, terms must be written in plain, intelligible language. Additionally, if a proposed terms is particularly onerous or strips away your privacy it **must be prominent**, meaning it has to be brought to your attention explicitly before you buy or sign up.

5. Gone, but Not Forgotten

Under the old Data Protection Act - which was replaced by something "better", there was a limitation that explicitly said that information collected for one purpose may not be used for another purpose without the expressed consent of the data subject. This is relevant in cases like this because companies tend to like to include weasel terms like, "for training and marketing purposes" as catch-all statements in their terms and conditions. What the old DPA provided was a safeguard against exactly this, but as far as I'm aware, that was torpedoed by the language of the GDPR which allows companies to declare what information processing is "necessary for their business". Of course, you buying a TV is not necessary for the placement of advertisements or the harvesting of marketing data, unless it is declared in weasel words in the ToC that are too long to read.

And we've said this before, but it bears repeating: if you're concerned about this but would still like to run modern electronics, invest in a Raspberry Pi and install yourself a copy of either PiHole DNS Sink, or, if you're a bit more adventurous, Technitium DNS. Both of these can provide you with network-level spy blocks that allow you to manually go in and edit your own block-lists after watching what the devices in question are trying to connect to. It's one of the best mechanisms - along with helping all your neighbours to secure their wifi - to stop this.

In any given period of time, the two devices in our household that generate the most network traffic are a 6-year-old Samsung QLED smtart TV and a Samsung G25 mobile phone.

I just pulled the log entries for my Samsung TV from my Technitium DNS for the last 24 hours - my TV has made 4,074 lookups [it has been "switched on" for maybe 2 hours in that period], of which 2,045 were blocked by Technitium and the filters I have in place. What's really interesting when I look at the active/allowed traffic are entries such as:-

www.youtube.com

eligibility-panelresearch.googlevideo.com

clients1.google.com

broadcast.live.bbctvapps.co.uk

interactive-tv.files.bbci.co.uk

ic.c4assets.com

Given that we have not used any YouTube, BBC or Channel 4 content in my TV in that period.

This isn't "security through obscurity", it's "exploitation through obscurity".

[Jellied Eel]

Re: One Moment Please - the Law would like a Word...

Given that we have not used any YouTube, BBC or Channel 4 content in my TV in that period.

I suspect that's because the 'TV' has YT & Bbc apps pre-installed. Does it have a C4 client on it? Which is something of a pet peeve. My old PS4 has the iPlayer app pre-loaded, and even though I've never used it, it's also quite chatty. That could be semi-legitimate, ie checking for updates but the traffic is encrypted or obfusticated, so who knows what it's collecting and transmitting? And as it's never been used, I obviously can't have consented to it collecting anything.

But iPlayer got added to the Communications Act as one of those things that requires a TV Licence. Offence is 'install or use', but the iPlayer app can't be uninstalled. Which is annoying for both legal reasons, and it wastes space on Sony's godawful ribbon system, where vendors presumably bung Sony cash to ensure their app is displayed prominently. Plus the Bbc also flogs ads and has a statutory duty to enforce licence fee sales. There have been some new-style threatograms issued that strongly hint at the Bbc using the strange registration/login demands from their news sites with probably iPlayer metadata to catch (or just threaten) evaders.. Which is something I've been pushing for with the current Licence review, ie the Bbc has the technical ability to detect & enforce 'illegal' online viewing, so there's no reason to retain the existing licence fee system & instead move the Bbc to a subscription model.

I also think there could be some potential FUN! fighting ads with adverts. Get some money together, run ads. Couple in bed asking "What's on TV tonight?". Cut to stereotypical mouthbreathing skiddie in a basement somewhere, watching through the couple's TV and saying "You are".

Most people just aren't aware of what they're allowing into their bedrooms, or the risks. If someone can compromise the TV, then it's just like being on OnlyFans, just without the revenue share. And as we know, the Internet never forgets.It might not be LG doing the perving, although there have been plenty of cases where employees have abused home monitoring devices. Voyeurism and making sex tapes without consent is already a criminal offence, yet LG enable this.

It's something that really needs to stop. I was once at a partners, about to take a shower and noticed she had a TV in her bathroom. Then asked why I stuck a towel over it. See that little dot? That's a camera. Then instead of having an enjoyable, water saving shower, she made me take down the TV and bracket. She had no idea the TV could be watching her use her bathroom.. And most people don't.

[Annihilator]

Re: One Moment Please - the Law would like a Word...

"That could be semi-legitimate, ie checking for updates"

Seems fcking unlikely that the app itself is checking for its own updates via its own hosting. On the Playstation, the binaries and updates will all be coming from the PlayStation Store - with LG, it's from the LG Content Store

[Sproggit]

Re: One Moment Please - the Law would like a Word...

I suppose - theoretically - that since Samsung have only a limited [relatively small] number of supported "apps" in the TV's "app store", that it would be relatively simple for a nanny process running on the TV OS itself to scan all local app versions against server/cloud versions and then trigger updates if it sees the server/cloud versions increment.

But that's not necessarily an acceptable approach for a piece of technology - unilaterally taking decisions about what to update and when to update - because the TV - or any other appliance, for that matter - would have no way of knowing whether my internet connection was high or low speed, whether it had failed over to an expensive 5G backup solution because my physical connection had just been lost, etc., etc.

If we had an appropriately informed/authorized executive from Samsung in this discussion, I suspect they would claim that the approach I witnessed helps to eliminate "user inconvenience" of being in a situation where I switch the set on and then the first thing it wants to do is run updates.

But this is a more sophisticated community than that; we understand that updates can have priorities and severities assigned and unless an update to a package I never use is "critical" - i.e. puts the rest of the set at risk of being compromised with e.g. a firmware rewrite attack - then the set should damn well mind it's own business and let me run updates if/when I want to.

The reason that appliances like this *don't* behave like that is because they don't want you to have any inkling of what is happening in the background when you're not looking. Especially when e.g. Steve at Gamers Nexus shows how LG TVs are literally listening to conversations and uploading text transcripts to a remote server.

Pretty much the only option left is to turn the thing off at the wall via a physical switch.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: One Moment Please - the Law would like a Word...

These laws apply to small business at best. It is unlikely that any jobsworth would do anything about it if you decided to waste your time and report it.

[0laf]

Re: One Moment Please - the Law would like a Word...

@Sproggit you forgot one very important facet of consent.

That consent must be as easy to remove as it is to give, and the removal or refusal of consent must not be to the detrement of the data subject (as then it cannot said to have been freely given). So they can't reduce or hobble the core services if an individual refuses consent and they do so hate to make it easy to withdraw consent.

On the flip side Peter Beardsley is more likely to win America's Next Top Model then the ICO is to take any action

[ComputerSays_noAbsolutelyNo]

Large siblinG

[ecofeco]

Not just LG

It turn out every "smart" TV made in the roughly the last 10 years is spying and collecting.

Say hi to Big Brother.

[Luiz Abdala]

What about the LG monitors that install ads?

GamerNexus blew LG wide open using a vulnerabiliy of windows to install software that pumps ads to the user. It pretends that their bloatware is a windows driver. Not just that, you have to tweak windows policies - or the registry, bluntly saying - to avoid installing it in the first place, just like Sony installing rootkits on every cd/dvd/bluray autorun days.

Worse even, they caught their appliances redhanded listening and TRANSCRIBING in plain text what the TVs are hearing, and pumping it back to LG for ad revenue, after inspecting the onboard memory of the devices before it could send the stored data already collected, without consent whatsoever.

(well, watch the video and take your own conclusions, these are my own biased opinions.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9uefFYe6bM

[XsamX]

Can we just hack all those devices?

If possible we should!

My recent samsung tv takes its time every time I turned on just to show me Samsung tv which I don't give an f and most important to load new ads on his homepage full of crap I can't remove or disable

[CoyoteDen]

Re: Can we just hack all those devices?

You can set it to not show the Smart Hub and to default to the last input or app you were using. The last app option does not work if the app closes when the TV is turned off, but last input does. Your best option is to factory reset the TV, leave it offline, and use some kind of streaming device. Not so much because of any potential spying but because their Tizen OS is utter crap.

[stiine]

Re: Can we just hack all those devices?

Mine doesn't. Mine nags me to accept the T&Cs every time I turn it on, just like it has done since I bought it several years ago. Since I only use it as a dumb HD monitor, I will continue to ignore that request.

[Anonymous Coward]

My "smart" Samsung TV has never had an internet connection and never will.

[Long John Silver]

Targeted ads - what at whom?

The 'ad' component of marketing sloshes around huge sums of money, giving it a marked presence in the GDPs of many nations. As with other features of present day 'financialised' economies, ad-pushing, that is above the level of old-style 'Exchange and Mart' (1868 - 2009), has become a thing unto itself like many other dubious value (or honesty) - yet money generating - activities in financial centres such as the City of London.

Put differently, advertising is self-perpetuating, profitable, 'evidently a good thing', but even less influenced by demand from clients for objective measures of success than are purveyors of nostrums for genital warts.

Given that the 'ad industry' is not entirely run by charlatans, one might enquire into the working, and merits, of targeted advertising. At one end of the scale are very highly priced goods completely out of reach by other than the putatively corrupt, narcissistic, and psychopathic, collectors of wealth, or by the less sharp-witted scions of such. Hence, super-yachts, private jets, and apocalypse bunkers, are beyond the scope of LG. At the bottom of the scale are items such as soap powders; however, vendors might seek to distinguish themselves from competitors by virtue of 'special properties' with regard to 'whiteness of clothing' (anybody remember the mysterious 'Brand X'?); even so, demographic predictors of taste/stupidity may not assist sales of supermarket 'piled-high' colourful packs of cheap(er) detergents.

The middle ground may offer realisable opportunities for targeting. The upper end of this is 'bling' - wrist watches, 'designer' handbags, and some brands of mobile phones - the mere possession of which 'says something' about the owner. LG must persuade its advertising clients that data gleaned from viewing habits picks out candidates to be rooked. Perhaps, in a household logged as interested in fashion, 'celebrity', and all things Mammon, 'overheard' conversations in the living room can give pointers. Maybe, in conjunction with AI analysis, the coarse common-voices of family members identify them as 'newly monied', e.g. household centred around a 'professional footballer' residing in a vey upmarket postcode district; they would be ripe of exploitation.

An area of commerce particularly sensitive to finely discerned discrimination among social-standing, income, and educational attainment, is the manner by which financial services are to be hawked, for instance in markets for credit and loans. The degree to which people may be milked, and the touch required for success, depends upon their desperation. Also a factor is their understanding of the intrinsically usurious nature of compound interest. The British requirement to present interest payment as an 'annualised percentage return' (APR), often leading to eye-watering figures, is easily brushed from attention via special offers and suchlike distractions.

I conclude that LG, among others, offers opportunity for the moderately clever, yet fixated upon profit maximisation regardless of externalities, to hoodwink the witless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Targeted ads - what at whom?

"Given that the 'ad industry' is not entirely run by charlatans,"

Where did that idea come from? Definitely zero connection to any reality.

What *is* given that "ad industry" *is* entirely run by charlatans. Not a single honest person there.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Is it any surprise that a company that would spam the shit out of you would also rape your data?

[steviebuk]

Have to keep ours

because of Jellyfin and it having the native app.

But I still need to get around putting it on its own VLAN, only allowing it to talk to the jellyfin server, then blocking it from all LG address'.

[Anonymous Coward]

EU bla bla bla ?

GDPR, CRA, GPSR , ROHS, CE bla bla bla, the EU has no resources to enforce laws and for governance. these big conpanies can get away with everything. why care EU laws? they are only using them to cash in money into EU own pockets instead of giving back to affected consumers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: EU bla bla bla ?

Go take your frog pills...

[MaChatma CoatGPT 2.0]

I want my Panasonic back

Around 18 months ago our beloved Panasonic telly went tits-up. I took it to our nearest dealer (only a four hour round trip) only to be told that Panasonic's TV division had pulled out of Aus because they could no longer compete with cheaper* rivals. The shop couldn't even order a replacement panel.

Anyway, we were given a full refund and left a bit miffed but understanding the situation. Then we had to find something else to replace it and visited a much nearer retailer. I had done all my research and ruled out any Android TVs which left us with LG as the only remaining option. We paid a visit and took a USB stick with various audio and video files in as many formats as we needed and tested them all. It played everything and the picture quality was adequate so we paid up and took delivery. A few days later I realised it was one of my biggest regrets as a tech purchase. In fact, I can't think of any item that annoys me more. I could list all the problems-by-design issues here but this post is already too long.

*The rivals are cheaper because they subsidise the price by selling your data to the highest bidder.

[Cincinnataroo]

What a glorious present, and more glorious future

So real time household surveillance.

So criminals can get this via the ad system.

So criminals can watch what you do, to fleece you all the better.

Futures so bright I gotta wear shades.

[frankyunderwood123]

marketings wet dream

The obvious fact is:

• the vast majority will never hear about this

• most won’t care if they do

• all the major TV manufacturers are probably doing the same thing

• what about internet connected appliances? what are they collecting?

It truly is a marketers wet dream - highly targetable data.

Those with the knowledge, a very small fraction of overall TV viewers can take action. At the very least, never allow your TV to connect to the internet.

Most people can’t or won’t take action, so LG and others will continue collecting data unhindered.

At most they may get a slap on the wrist and get fined after lengthy dragged out court battles.

Then all they need to do is to bake in consent and use dark patterns to direct most users to agree.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: marketings wet dream

It’s now gone closed loop. We were watching a movie a few days ago, my wife was doom scrolling at the same time, and she was getting served adds based on the movie dialogue.

[RobDog]

No need to ask them for comment

Their people freely own up to all of it in the video from what I can tell.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: No need to ask them for comment

Their people freely own up to all of it in the video from what I can tell.

I'm just watching the video and it's really quite shocking. LG owns the living room. They own the glass. If you're living in an LG household, they own you. Their ad-slinging boss seems very proud of this. He may be less proud of his SEC fraud conviction, but hey, he's still a fit & proper person to run a mass surveillance network and sell the take to the highest bidder. The video also gave other examples, like a doctor saying they may be having a conversation with a patient, or displaying a patient's medical records. HIPPA says a very strong 'No' to violating patient confidentiality.

LG is watching, and listening.

Or LG displays inside businesses, board rooms, legal offices where privileged conversations would be happening.

LG is watching, and listening.

LG owns the living room, the board room, the bedroom, the household, the office. And it's not just LG given all the other tech bros doing exactly the same thing, hoovering up PII and looking for ways to monetise what people thought were their private moments. The saddest thing is there are a lot of people who think this is acceptable, because they demonstrate a complete lack of ethics, morals, or understanding of risk.

LG does not own the living room, the glass, the household. I do. The sooner LG and others are made to realise this, the better. The sooner legislators and regulators get serious and give LG and others a thorough legal fisking, the better. Monetising and exploiting our privacy is not OK, and everyone's at it. AlphaGoo does it because their product is ads, and us. Microsoft of course does it because they have an ad-slinging business, so want to foist Copilot and Totalitarian Recall to snapshot and analyse everything on screen so their ACR can better profile and stalk us.

But because there's a lot of profit at stake, a lot of lobbying money, there's a lot of pushback. So Trump threatening trade wars with the EU for daring to suggest that GDPR, data sovereignty and privacy laws should not apply to MS, AlphaGoo, LG etc.

But I guess this is LG's theme tune-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY

I just can't see LG using that in an advert. I always feel like someone's watching me.. and an LG logo.

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart telly

A smart telly is a pointless PITA anyway. Even if you want to use the built in (cr)apps, most of the time they''re practically abandonware by the time the machine exits the factory and the UI onscreen is usually an appalling sliggish mess as well.

Leave the tv dumb, don't connect it to anything directly and use one of the many available external media dongles or devices to run your streaming apps.

[Giles C]

Lg owner

I have an 2023 model LG tv. Which is not connected to a wired or wireless network and hasn’t been from day 1.

It is used for picking up dvb channels otherwise it is connected to an Apple TV, soundbar, PS5 and a Panasonic 4k bluray which is at least 10 years old now.

The only things I ever use the menus for is changing channels or input source - for some reason if I startup the Apple TV the tv starts but does not switch to the correct source and I haven’t figured out why yet - any suggestions?

So most of these problems don’t exist for me, but if TVs these days insist on being permanently online and I bought one then I would send it back to the shop as not suitable for intended purpose.

If this is the case then the retail box and the shop label needs to state this must be connected to the internet to function. This is what the sky glass machine used to state.

[Marty McFly]

Re: Lg owner

I used to play that same gambit using a mix or Roku's & Apple TV's.

Then one day I got a hankering to deploy a Pi-Hole. Over 50% of my DNS lookups were exclusively coming from these devices. At all hours of the day, non-stop. Constant chatter. Just what are those devices sharing???

Those devices are now relegated to the tote of old tech that I no longer need. Use a real PC of your choice as a head - Mac/Win/Lin - and reclaim your privacy.

[osxtra]

Basilisk Mode

The aging Sony Bravo developed a vertical green line.

The mate didn't mind, but I had to watch with her. Eventually it was annoying enough to warrant another screen.

The new Samsung gadget keeps complaining that it's not connected to an "ARC" HDMI port.

That's because it's routed through an also aging - yet still quite serviceable - Yahama receiver which only forwards A/V packets, not IP.

So, the Samsung, bright though its screen may be, lives in the dark, info-wise.

Who cares about updates? It's just a screen, and at least in this household, will stay that way.

One less device monitoring viewing habits. Hooray!

[Martin an gof]

Re: Basilisk Mode

ARC is Audio Return Channel. It's a way to send sound produced by the telly to your a/v amplifier without having to run an extra cable. Indeed many tellies don't have separate audio outputs these days anyway.

While many ARC sockets / cables can also carry Ethernet, the telly is more likely complaining that (it thinks) you haven't set the sound up properly, most likely if you are using the telly's own tuner to watch TV rather than an STB which you've routed through the amplifier anyway.

M.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ludites for the win

I have a 46" Panasonic Plasma TV that's 20 years old.

Full HD and still a better pciture than most of the 4K TV's ive seen in shops until you get to ludicrous money.

Disadvantages - Uses a lot of power compared to newer LED/OLED models.

Advantages - Awesome Picture Quality, True Blacks No Internet connection, No Software to be updated, Has 4 HDMI ports, 2 SCART Sockets, Composite Video Phono Sockets, Component Video Phone Sockets, Super VHS, optical Audio and RGB Phono Inputs with Optical Audio and Stereo Phono Outputs

Ill stick with what I have till it dies I think

[Martin an gof]

Re: Ludites for the win

I loved a good plasma screen. Had several by Panasonic and LG at work, in use for an average of about 8 hours a day.

By about 10 years old the LGs were beginning to show signs of age, the Panasonics by 15 or so. Symptoms being gradual loss of brightness and (in particular) much more prominent dithering. Brightness was so gradual it was only really noticeable alongside a newer screen when I asked myself, "this picture used to be really clear in this sunlit room, why is it looking murky now?"

Shame. Replaced with some nice Panasonic commercial LCD displays which are not "smart" in the "smart tv" sense, but have flexible media players and can be controlled over the network for automated on/off scheduling.

Not in the £250 from Curry's bracket though...

M.

[Marty McFly]

Zip, Zilch, Nada, Zero!

That is precisely how many LG TV's I have that are connected to the network out of seven total. Great displays, they look wonderful!

Mac Mini's drive each one of them. Certainly not perfect either, a different set of challenges. But a lot better and I am in control with whatever ad & tracking blockers I choose.

[Radgie Gadgie]

Doublespeak at its finest

"The ACR (Automatic Content Recognition) feature is provided on an opt-in basis to deliver personalized content recommendations, services, and advertisements.

If a user does not consent to the applicable optional agreement, ACR data is not used for advertising purposes."

That does NOT say that if the ACR is not opted in to, then data is not transmitted.

It says that the data is not then used for advertising purposes.

I'm a annoyed at the concept of a buffer.

I have an LG OLED, I've opted out of everything, and keep the thing disconnected - only connecting now and again for updates.

Immediately disconnect it once done.

If it is has been storing data for upload at some opportune moment, I shall be somewhat vexed.

[MazeFrame]

Infinite Pain and Suffering

If your workplace is subject to GDPR, ISO27001, BSI baseline protection, ANSSI or CCN, these can not legally be used.

Wendell (L1T) and Steve (GN) being able to "just" break into these spy-devices to have a 60ft surveillance radius. Now imagine state actors doing a wireless drive-by 0-day on these.

Looking through LG's terms of abuse, I wish all their decision makers a twisted and a wet sock, a little stone in their shoe and an suspicious noise in their car. If I had any say at an authority, the leadership would be arrested on grounds of treason and espionage.

As for LG's statement added to the article: HA! LOL, sod off with that! Their BS was laid out for all to see, and still is in their terms of abuse.

[Mr Dogshit]

Life's Good™

And this is why my LG telly isn't, hasn't been, and never will be connected to Ethernet.

Seems to play DVDs nicely.

P.S. Apparently, when it's off, it isn't really off, and periodically runs a stray pixel detection routine.

[Eric 9001]

It's time

Get everyone who has a LG TV to demand the complete corresponding source code and installation information of the; GPLv2, LGPLv2.1, GPLv3 and AGPLv3 software that LG distributes on their TV's.

Once the actual source code has been acquired, then it'll be feasible to turn any LG TV from surveillance equipment into a computer that runs free software and thus serves you.

[Captain Badmouth]

Uk dumb tv’s

Cello in the uk sell non-smart tv’s.

I have no connection to the company whatsoever..

[Sub 20 Pilot]

OK, without reading every comment, long story cut short is that LG refute the allegations.

This needs to be proven in court one way or another and if they are found to be lying then bankrupt the fuckers and put their execs in jail. No giving them years to appeal on some technicality - simple question - are you doing what is alleged? Answer no, then prove it to the satisfaction of a board of independent technical experts. Answer yes then jail the bastards and dsimantle the company.

This shit is fucking tiresome. I don't do tv and most social media so this does not really impact on me but unless a stand is taken and these fucking parasites are nuked out of existence then it will keep creeping up on us. How long before it becomes illegal to not have a tv in your house that spies on you.